Double the dose lower the testosterone

[flyfish1000]

I am not sure what to make of my labs? Can anyone add their thoughts.

8/6/09 Before TRT
Pre TRT Serum Testosterone 488 LabCorp
Free Testosterone 5.9 (7.2-24)
9/3/09
After 1 month on 4 pumps of Androgel

Serum Testosterone 832 (241-827) LabCorp

Free Testosterone 14.4 (7.2-24)

10/20/09
RHEIN 24 hour urine

Testosterone 78 (45-85)

LabCorp SHBG 62 (13-71)
RT3 496 (90-350
T3 2.8 (2.0-4.4)
T4 1.83(.93-1.71

Because of my SHBG and the way I was feeling my Dr doubled my Testosterone after the 10/20/test. Now the results with double the testosterone.

12/3/09

Bioavailable Test W/O SHBG 541 (350-1030)
Bioavailable Test,S 78 (95-285)
Bioavailable Test% 14.4
Serum Testosterone 432 (280-800)
SHBG 58 (13-71)
Estradiol Sensitive 10 (3-70)
TSH .067 (.450-4.5)
Free T4 1.13 (.82-1.77)
Free T3 3.1 (2.0-4.4)
RT3 368 (90-350)

It seems I am now below the beginning levels of my Testosterone before TRT If my Serum is 432 VS 488 taken at the same time of day. I would have been better off not smearing this stuff on at all. My Thyroid Labs have improved in 1 1/2 months in regards to the RT3 dropping 128 points while adding Cytomel and reducing my synthroid.. Still more to go. The only difference I have made is I now apply the Testosterone Gel to my Calves instead of my shoulders. Could this be the reason for the dramatic drop? Once again my Dr raised my T dose to 3 pumps of a 10% gel from 2 pumps. He said its okay to keep using the calves as an application site. I am pretty disappointed seeing my Testosterone go up so well in the beginning only to tank below where I started on an increased dosage. Also I don't understand the difference between the two different Bioavailable tests. One of them says I am in the normal range while the other one says I am too low? Does this make any sense? Could my change in thyroid meds have reduced my Testosterone? Thanks

[Dadoo]

Hey dude
what you're expecting taking androgel without HCG?? you must be crazy... of course it will shut down your HTPA, so you don't produce no own T any more, and the 4XX ng/dl T that you have is all from the androgel.

you should talk to your doc about adding HCG to your TRT. Or don't you want to take it due to the inconvenience?

[flyfish1000]

I am not opposed to trying HCG. It has never been offered to me. I am thinking more in line now with just quitting it altogether.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by flyfish1000

I am not sure what to make of my labs? Can anyone add their thoughts.

8/6/09 Before TRT
Pre TRT Serum Testosterone 488 LabCorp
Free Testosterone 5.9 (7.2-24)
9/3/09
After 1 month on 4 pumps of Androgel

Serum Testosterone 832 (241-827) LabCorp

Free Testosterone 14.4 (7.2-24)

10/20/09
RHEIN 24 hour urine

Testosterone 78 (45-85)

LabCorp SHBG 62 (13-71)
RT3 496 (90-350
T3 2.8 (2.0-4.4)
T4 1.83(.93-1.71

Because of my SHBG and the way I was feeling my Dr doubled my Testosterone after the 10/20/test. Now the results with double the testosterone.

12/3/09

Bioavailable Test W/O SHBG 541 (350-1030)
Bioavailable Test,S 78 (95-285)
Bioavailable Test% 14.4
Serum Testosterone 432 (280-800)
SHBG 58 (13-71)
Estradiol Sensitive 10 (3-70)
TSH .067 (.450-4.5)
Free T4 1.13 (.82-1.77)
Free T3 3.1 (2.0-4.4)
RT3 368 (90-350)

It seems I am now below the beginning levels of my Testosterone before TRT If my Serum is 432 VS 488 taken at the same time of day. I would have been better off not smearing this stuff on at all. My Thyroid Labs have improved in 1 1/2 months in regards to the RT3 dropping 128 points while adding Cytomel and reducing my synthroid.. Still more to go. The only difference I have made is I now apply the Testosterone Gel to my Calves instead of my shoulders. Could this be the reason for the dramatic drop? Once again my Dr raised my T dose to 3 pumps of a 10% gel from 2 pumps. He said its okay to keep using the calves as an application site. I am pretty disappointed seeing my Testosterone go up so well in the beginning only to tank below where I started on an increased dosage. Also I don't understand the difference between the two different Bioavailable tests. One of them says I am in the normal range while the other one says I am too low? Does this make any sense? Could my change in thyroid meds have reduced my Testosterone? Thanks

SHBG 62 (13-71)
RT3 496 (90-350)
=======================

Do not use Androgel, you will newer get enough testosterone in, specially with bad thyroid.


get
250-300mg/week testosterone
divide that dose into EOD

HCG-250iu/EOD

Cytomel-T3-75mg/day divide 3x

Makes sure that your adrenals and thyroid are supported.

Adrenal-Support
vitamin B6,
Vitamin B5 - pantothenic acid
vitamin C
Vit D
calcium,
magnesium,
potassium,
manganese,
zinc

Thyroid Support
Iodine
Selenium
Zinc
Vitamin D
Vitamin E
Antioxidants
Essential Fats
Amino Acids

[LowT]

Are you on thyroid meds?

[chilln]

Originally Posted by flyfish1000

I am not sure what to make of my labs? Can anyone add their thoughts.

OK, let's give it a go...

Originally Posted by flyfish1000

8/6/09 Before TRT
Pre TRT Serum Testosterone 488 LabCorp
Free Testosterone 5.9 (7.2-24)

We don't pay much attention to the lab measured "Free testosterone", they're almost random numbers.

We deal with either bioavialable T, or with total_T_combined_with_SHBG, and then we can approximate your bioavialable T.

The total T metric is useful.

Originally Posted by flyfish1000

9/3/09
After 1 month on 4 pumps of Androgel

Serum Testosterone 832 (241-827) LabCorp

Free Testosterone 14.4 (7.2-24)

We don't pay much attention to the lab measured "Free testosterone", they're almost random numbers.

We deal with either bioavialable T, or with total_T_combined_with_SHBG, and then we can approximate your bioavialable T.

The total T metric is useful.

Originally Posted by flyfish1000

10/20/09
RHEIN 24 hour urine

Testosterone 78 (45-85)
LabCorp SHBG.......62 (13-71)
RT3............................496 (90-350
T3.................................2.8 (2.0-4.4)
T4................................1.83(.93-1.71

Obviously your thyroid supps, at this time, were keeping your SHBG high, and your reverse T3 high too.

Originally Posted by flyfish1000

Because of my SHBG and the way I was feeling my Dr doubled my Testosterone after the 10/20/test.

ok

Originally Posted by flyfish1000

Now the results with double the testosterone.
12/3/09

Bioavailable Test W/O SHBG 541 (350-1030)
Bioavailable Test,S........................78 (95-285)
Bioavailable Test%........................14.4
Serum Testosterone....................432 (280-800)
SHBG.............................................. .....58 (13-71)
Estradiol Sensitive..........................10 (3-70)
TSH............................................... ...........0.067 (.450-4.5)
Free T4................................................ ...1.13 (.82-1.77)
Free T3................................................ ...3.1 (2.0-4.4)
RT3............................................... ......368 (90-350)

My Thyroid Labs have improved in 1 1/2 months in regards to the RT3 dropping 128 points while adding Cytomel and reducing my synthroid.

The only difference I have made is I now apply the Testosterone Gel to my Calves instead of my shoulders.

Once again my Dr raised my T dose to 3 pumps of a 10% gel from 2 pumps. He said its okay to keep using the calves as an application site.

Your total T is probably lower because either:

a) your HPTA took a longer time to shutdown than 4 weeks, so initially your T gel / cream was adding to your testicular-produced T. Over time, your testicles did shut down, and now you're deriving 100% of your T from T gel / cream, with effectively no contribution from your testicles. It's unusual to take so long to shut down your HPTA, but we all have something unusual about our genetics, and this may be yours.

and / or

b) Your thyroid hormone T3 levels have increased while your thyroid hormone reverse T3 levels have decreased, resulting in faster body metabolism, resulting in faster metabolism of your testosterone (hence you will need more T per day).

and / or

c) your pharmacy changed the base of their compounded T gel / cream, and you absorb it less.

You and your medical professional adviser need to experiment to confirm which of the above situations is most likely.

Originally Posted by flyfish1000

I don't understand the difference between the two different Bioavailable tests. One of them says I am in the normal range while the other one says I am too low.

They both way your bioavailable T is low. You need to boost your bioavailable T much higher.

.

[hardasnails1973]

Originally Posted by chilln

OK, let's give it a go...




We don't pay much attention to the lab measured "Free testosterone", they're almost random numbers.

We deal with either bioavialable T, or with total_T_combined_with_SHBG, and then we can approximate your bioavialable T.

The total T metric is useful.




We don't pay much attention to the lab measured "Free testosterone", they're almost random numbers.

We deal with either bioavialable T, or with total_T_combined_with_SHBG, and then we can approximate your bioavialable T.

The total T metric is useful.




Obviously your thyroid supps, at this time, were keeping your SHBG high, and your reverse T3 high too.




ok





Your total T is probably lower because either:

a) your HPTA took a longer time to shutdown than 4 weeks, so initially your T gel / cream was adding to your testicular-produced T. Over time, your testicles did shut down, and now you're deriving 100% of your T from T gel / cream, with effectively no contribution from your testicles. It's unusual to take so long to shut down your HPTA, but we all have something unusual about our genetics, and this may be yours.

and / or

b) Your thyroid hormone T3 levels have increased while your thyroid hormone reverse T3 levels have decreased, resulting in faster body metabolism, resulting in faster metabolism of your testosterone (hence you will need more T per day).

and / or

c) your pharmacy changed the base of their compounded T gel / cream, and you absorb it less.

You and your medical professional adviser need to experiment to confirm which of the above situations is most likely.




They both way your bioavailable T is low. You need to boost your bioavailable T much higher.

.

Most likely on synthroid which is pushing his SHBG up the ass. Most likely over 150 mcgs a day. After 50 mcgs mine goes right to rt3, erfa would be a better choice and monitor is slowly.. Your t4 to t3 conversion sucks this is a red flag for dhea/cortisol imbalance that needs to be ruled out. t-3 at 25 mcgs will fry the shit out of his adrenals which need to be properly evaluate before commencing thyroid treatment in the first place. Even on t-3 shbg will be elevated. I see this occurance in number of patients that still insist to use it. Proper nutrients are essential for thyroid production and conversion. Instead of jacking the crap out of the testosterone with 2-300 mgs weekly I would work on manipulation of factors that are causing the high shbg in the first place IE thyroid. Again problem with traditional medicine is treating symptoms with more meds with out looking at the cause. TD gels with hypothyroid can leave people hanging because dr's will not check on your levels for up to 2 months being on 5 grams. I like to have levels check 10 days after application to now if it is going to work or not. The patient has already been in hormone hell for a prolong peroid of time so why make them suffer even more. In HRT more is not better but finding that healthy balance between each hormones with competent professional medical adviser is the key.

[chilln]

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

Most likely on synthroid which is pushing his SHBG up the ass.

flyfish1000 has been on T4 supplementation since his thyroid was mostly removed (thyroid cancer surgery) before commencing boosting T.

flyfish1000's SHBG remained constantly high even as his medical professional adviser had him reduce his Synthroid (thyroid hormone T4).

I do agree that reducing thyroid hormone T4 even further, should reduce flyfish1000's SHBH somewhat, but it's a balancing act, and should only be done if further reducing reverse T3 is indicated, and if necessary, should only be done over several weeks, to allow the new levels to stabilize.

At this time, I'm not convinced that flyfish1000 should further reduce his T4 supplementation. His reverse T3 is looking much better after his latest adjustment to T4. It may be able to be reduced further, but that's not his most dysfunctional hormone at this time.

At this time, his most dysfunctional hormone is low T, and the reason why his T went first high, and then low, after commencing T gel supplementation, is most likely because his HPTA took a lot longer to shutdown than everyone else's. So be it. We all have unique genetics in one way or another.

In that time, flyfish1000 needs to understand how several of his main hormones, such as his thyroid hormones and his testosterone, are being modulated, while his medical professional adviser adjusts both his testosterone and thyroid modulating supplements.

Eventually if flyfish1000, and his medical professional adviser, are not able to manage the complexity of modulating two hormones at once, then they may mutually agree to focus on just one hormone at a time. I am not yet suggesting this is the case in flyfish1000's case.

Some medical professional advisers can handle modulating both testosterone and thyroid hormones concurrently. Whether flyfish1000's medical professional adviser is one of them is still under investigation. But so far so good. What's critical from this forum's perspective is education: ie: helping flyfish1000 understand why his medical professional adviser is making the choices he / she has made.

.

[flyfish1000]

Thanks, I was on 200mcgs of synthroid only for 18 years. Its only been 4 weeks on the reduced T4 and adding in the T3. The Synthroid was reduced by 50% to 100mcgs and the Cytomel is 15mcgs a day. I guess my Dr looked at it the same way Chilln is as he decided to not change the thyroid protocol yet and he was happy with the quick drop in my RT3. He raised my Tgel by one more pump to 3 a day which is a compounded 10% gel. I have more labs scheduled in one month. Since adding in the T3 and reducing the synthroid my symptoms of depression have been reduced by at least 80-90% which happened on the first day of adding Cytomel and was the whole reason I am doing any of this. I now have to live with being on Diovan for the HBP it has caused but I like the trade off. I hope the extra pump of T gel does the trick. On my next appointment I am going to discuss adding HCG and perhaps switching to T shots just to save some $ over the gel.

[TryingToFix]

Originally Posted by flyfish1000

Thanks, I was on 200mcgs of synthroid only for 18 years. Its only been 4 weeks on the reduced T4 and adding in the T3. The Synthroid was reduced by 50% to 100mcgs and the Cytomel is 15mcgs a day. I guess my Dr looked at it the same way Chilln is as he decided to not change the thyroid protocol yet and he was happy with the quick drop in my RT3. He raised my Tgel by one more pump to 3 a day which is a compounded 10% gel. I have more labs scheduled in one month. Since adding in the T3 and reducing the synthroid my symptoms of depression have been reduced by at least 80-90% which happened on the first day of adding Cytomel and was the whole reason I am doing any of this. I now have to live with being on Diovan for the HBP it has caused but I like the trade off. I hope the extra pump of T gel does the trick. On my next appointment I am going to discuss adding HCG and perhaps switching to T shots just to save some $ over the gel.

Sounds like a great jump in progress, especially the depression symptoms!