The Definitive b12 Thread

[scottyo]

Ok, I dont have anything to add here initially, but I thought we could gather all the useful information, dosing protocols, places to order (with script) etc. for methyl b12 in one spot.

I know HAN has got a lot of info on this, and its implicated in so many things...foremost among them my organic acids test deficiencies.

b12 is anti-cancer, energy, thyroid, adrenals, estrogen clearance etc. What do we have?

and what are the dosing protocols? I hope to add more here later today.

[scottyo]

I wanted to add this site as a great read for some diagrams and the structures involved. The first page is not that great but keep reading;

http://saffermion.com/Booket%20for%20Hicobal.pdf

[T800]

I take 1 2000mcg tablet every day sublingual after breakfast. Tastes like bananas. It's part of the nutrional side of my adrenal/thyroid treatment.

Sonny

[bgnb]

for methyl B-12 the more the merrier!

I have posted this at other sites but will reiterate here:

I lost over 10 years of my life, my job, my education career,
my friends, my family and almost my life due to a simple B-12
deficiency that NOT ONE specialist ever considered testing.

I was subjected to unnecessary 'treatments' and nearly had spinal
surgery because of constant excruciating lower back pain which
disappeared after I started taking B-12!!! Turns out the pain was
probably due to demyelination which starts in the lower spinal cord.

As for 'info' out there, most is anecdotal or copied from the few
good articles that exist.

For anyone who had problems with depression, anxiety and pain,
I would strongly recommend getting your B-12 levels checked but
more important, start taking methyl B-12 and see if it helps.

[scottyo]

The question is, where is the best place to get this? online, compounded, and only certain compounded?

[pmgamer18]

I use this for B-12 do tell me if I am wasting my money.
http://www.myvitanet.com/megb12dot50m1.html

[hardasnails1973]

Had to burst your bubble but you wasting your time reason being people with adrenal issues are majority undermethyated which result in lower DHEA levels. your methyation reason may be why you can not balance out your estrogen..
Even though your homocystein is correct, what pathways are being taken to detoxify it? Thats why i stress amino acid urine tests. I tells you which way its going. You can have a high b-12 /folate serum, but is your body properly converting it. Phil in I got a hold your diet and what you are doing I am sure I could find some thing that out of balance..My gut instinct is tell me its not your pituirary but your e2 metaboliism that is wacked. Even with homocystein of 5.3 I am still undermethyated !! i got tests to back that up. You could have a functional b-12, folate defieincy from improper methyation which would result elevated sarconsine AKA sarcopenia ..

Jarrow b-12 subligual 5,000 mcgs.

[scottyo]

Im not sure wasting money, but I know that injectable is the better way (and probably guaranteed) way to take care of things.

[hardasnails1973]

i meant phil is not you sonny. Your going on the right track and what I have been stressing all along from the beginning on every stinking board, but know I think people are finally starting to catch on !! To what I have been saying for past 2 years..

[pmgamer18]

From what I understand the diet I follow is the best in the world I do Weight Watchers.
I fry 2 eggs in Pam with 2 slices of low fat and sugar bread we call it diet bread. Two slices = one normal slice of bread. I have with this fruit and apple sauce that I mix my Maca in.

For lunch I eat a diet small Pita bread with some low 97% fat free turkey about 3 thin slices and some 97% fat free ham in it. I have a bow this week of Pinto bean soup and no fat or sugar yogurt that I mix my Maca in and grapes.

For dinner I eat a baked potato or brown rice. A serving of lean meat Chicken breast, beef or pork lion. With this 2 different Veg's and a salad.

In between these I eat fruit and have low fat milk and some nights I eat air poped popcorn.

[scottyo]

Ok, so we're trying to determine the right dose for methyl b12 injections. You seem to suggest adding the sublingual with it, fine. But we've decided to do injections.

Is 10,000mcg 3 times a week really the best? Or should someone who's focus is on taking care of a deficiency be doing something like 1,500mcg instead? also, Ive heard that it can only last 2 weeks or that it cna last 6 months? which is right?

Scottyo

[bgnb]

Ok, so we're trying to determine the right dose for methyl b12 injections. You seem to suggest adding the sublingual with it, fine. But we've decided to do injections.

Is 10,000mcg 3 times a week really the best? Or should someone who's focus is on taking care of a deficiency be doing something like 1,500mcg instead? also, Ive heard that it can only last 2 weeks or that it cna last 6 months? which is right?

Scottyo

there is NO 'right' dose ... i would do smaller amounts eod rather
than blast a ton in and pee most of it out ... methyl B-12 is NOT stored
in the liver like cyanocobalamin so you need to take it more often.

if you do have the injectable type then use the small 3/10 cc diabetic
needle which should give you 3,000 mcg's per dose.

you can still take the sublingual type as well every day ...

[scottyo]

Been doing a lot of research on this today (when I should editing and writing a few papers for conferences and publication damnit). But here is what ive come to:

EOD or E3D is the way to do this.

I read several dr. reports that suggest something like 1500mcg a shot is the right dose (based on kg/mcg dosing), although the Neubrander protocol goes higher suggesting 64mcg/kg but that is for children.

also, in consultation with Dr. Crisler we both agreed that sane, sensible dosing is the way to go, so 1,500mcg EOD is the way its going to be.

College pharmacy seems to be the only reliable source I found. Couldnt find any decent spots in NYC, nor in my hometown. Other places in MI were much more expensive.

[hardasnails1973]

If that is what dr crisler suggested then you do what the men tells you, but to over come methyation issues you need 5000 mcgs twice a week. If you are dealing with possible mercury you need higher dosages to force the Methione synthase pathway that is being jammed up. I have been to the best detoxifcation speciliast probably in united states and also one of the best in the world. When ever you reference autism Dr patricia kane name comes up all over the place. My speciality is in autism and as I mentioned before if you understand autism you understand majority of diseases out there. I can probably bank that majority of the people on TRT have probably some kind of DNA polymorphism in the alelles due to past child hood problems or excessive stress as the trigger the cascade that where just brewing there since there child hood. ALot of people on TRT demostrate many charasitics of aspergers syndrome that not goes unhidden in the medical field..

[bgnb]

so I would assume that using a 3/10 cc needle that the 15 mark
out of 30 would result in the 1500 mcg dose?





EOD or E3D is the way to do this.

I read several dr. reports that suggest something like 1500mcg a shot is the right dose (based on kg/mcg dosing), although the Neubrander protocol goes higher suggesting 64mcg/kg but that is for children.

also, in consultation with Dr. Crisler we both agreed that sane, sensible dosing is the way to go, so 1,500mcg EOD is the way its going to be.

College pharmacy seems to be the only reliable source I found. Couldnt find any decent spots in NYC, nor in my hometown. Other places in MI were much more expensive.

[kanecore]

If that is what dr crisler suggested then you do what the men tells you, but to over come methyation issues you need 5000 mcgs twice a week. If you are dealing with possible mercury you need higher dosages to force the Methione synthase pathway that is being jammed up. I have been to the best detoxifcation speciliast probably in united states and also one of the best in the world. When ever you reference autism Dr patricia kane name comes up all over the place. My speciality is in autism and as I mentioned before if you understand autism you understand majority of diseases out there. I can probably bank that majority of the people on TRT have probably some kind of DNA polymorphism in the alelles due to past child hood problems or excessive stress as the trigger the cascade that where just brewing there since there child hood. ALot of people on TRT demostrate many charasitics of aspergers syndrome that not goes unhidden in the medical field..

How does B12 force the Methione synthase pathways? What if one is actually a over-methylator...B12 would screw them up worse since B12 is a methyl donor...so would Sam-e, GABA, folic acid, B6, DMG and TMG. Would mercury toxicity indicate under-methylation. What if one suffered from systematic candida...that could be methylation but it can also be a copper issue.

According to the article you provided me in another thread: if you are severely mercury toxic then you are caught since you need more cysteine to function since the mercury takes it out, but if you have more cysteine you mobilize the mercury and you get more doing damage.

The article indicates that one should chelate (plus have mercury amalgams removed by a naturopath dentist) because heavy mental toxicity, especially mercury, makes it impossibe to correct methylation issues. I've been diagnosed with adult ADD and have had a long battle with systematic candida...I owe it all to my amalgam filings. The article indicated selenium was a good interim idea until one could chelate. I gues one should take a systematic approach to identifying possible nutritional and toxicity issues.

[hardasnails1973]

First what needs to be done is to support your body and protect from the toxins of the candida AKA acetaldehyde. How is this done? by supporting the liver pathways that detoxify it. With candida people tend to be undermethylated why? Candida causes inflammmation and inflamation causes histamine release. Candida also interfers with nutrient absorption so there becomes a vicious cycle. The proper order to deal with candida is to choke it off with a higher fat diet (30% ev cocconut oil,), lower carb (gluten free), higher protein and to prevent food from going racnid with digestive enzymes. Next is to heal leaky gut to seal up the holes that toxins which should stay the small intestine are leaking into the liver causing more stress. 3 step is to releive the stress from the over burden liver by balancing the pathways. 4 step is replenish the good bacteria that have been destroyed. look into florastar http://www.florastor.com/article.asp?id=1140
which will literally eat candida. Like i said every thing falls back to autism one way or another

[kanecore]

First what needs to be done is to support your body and protect from the toxins of the candida AKA acetaldehyde. How is this done? by supporting the liver pathways that detoxify it. With candida people tend to be undermethylated why? Candida causes inflammmation and inflamation causes histamine release. Candida also interfers with nutrient absorption so there becomes a vicious cycle. The proper order to deal with candida is to choke it off with a higher fat diet (30% ev cocconut oil,), lower carb (gluten free), higher protein and to prevent food from going racnid with digestive enzymes. Next is to heal leaky gut to seal up the holes that toxins which should stay the small intestine are leaking into the liver causing more stress. 3 step is to releive the stress from the over burden liver by balancing the pathways. 4 step is replenish the good bacteria that have been destroyed. look into florastar http://www.florastor.com/article.asp?id=1140
which will literally eat candida. Like i said every thing falls back to autism one way or another

How would you suggest one address leaky gut and balance liver pathways?

[hardasnails1973]

Every one person is different and only proper testing can verify this and people symptoms.

1. Estro esscence -To detremines undermethyation via 4 methyesterones metabolites.
2. urine histamines -elevated levels = under methyation
3. RBC fatty acids - can help to determine imbalances in proper pathways of PGE -1 , PGE-2
4. amino acid urine - shows which pathways are over loaded or not working properly.

Actually I am in process of designing an all in one liver detoxifcation supplement that will not affect a person if they are undermethyated or overmethyated and addresses all issues. it may be like 6 pills a day but it should address each specific pathway .

Address leaky gut
1. by cutting of the candidas fuel supply this less ends the nasty by product
2 florastar - 2 pill morning and 2 pills at night -
3. kefir - make it your self using extravigin cocconut milk will clobber the shit out of candida
4 glutemine 5 grams 4 times a day

[kanecore]

Every one person is different and only proper testing can verify this and people symptoms.

1. Estro esscence -To detremines undermethyation via 4 methyesterones metabolites.
2. urine histamines -elevated levels = under methyation
3. RBC fatty acids - can help to determine imbalances in proper pathways of PGE -1 , PGE-2
4. amino acid urine - shows which pathways are over loaded or not working properly.

Actually I am in process of designing an all in one liver detoxifcation supplement that will not affect a person if they are undermethyated or overmethyated and addresses all issues. it may be like 6 pills a day but it should address each specific pathway .

Address leaky gut
1. by cutting of the candidas fuel supply this less ends the nasty by product
2 florastar - 2 pill morning and 2 pills at night -
3. kefir - make it your self using extravigin cocconut milk will clobber the shit out of candida
4 glutemine 5 grams 4 times a day

Thanks! Be sure to update me on your progress. By the way, can you order the specific tests you referenced from Genova or does one have to have Quest perform certain ones? Can Genova also perform the hair sample tests refernced in the following articles:

http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~moriam/HOW_TO_hair_test.html#counting_rules

[Dr. John Crisler]

Had to burst your bubble but you wasting your time reason being people with adrenal issues are majority undermethyated which result in lower DHEA levels. your methyation reason may be why you can not balance out your estrogen..
Even though your homocystein is correct, what pathways are being taken to detoxify it? Thats why i stress amino acid urine tests. I tells you which way its going. You can have a high b-12 /folate serum, but is your body properly converting it. Phil in I got a hold your diet and what you are doing I am sure I could find some thing that out of balance..My gut instinct is tell me its not your pituirary but your e2 metaboliism that is wacked. Even with homocystein of 5.3 I am still undermethyated !! i got tests to back that up. You could have a functional b-12, folate defieincy from improper methyation which would result elevated sarconsine AKA sarcopenia ..

Jarrow b-12 subligual 5,000 mcgs.

By what criteria do you determine your methylation status?

[Dr. John Crisler]

From what I understand the diet I follow is the best in the world I do Weight Watchers.
I fry 2 eggs in Pam with 2 slices of low fat and sugar bread we call it diet bread. Two slices = one normal slice of bread. I have with this fruit and apple sauce that I mix my Maca in.

For lunch I eat a diet small Pita bread with some low 97% fat free turkey about 3 thin slices and some 97% fat free ham in it. I have a bow this week of Pinto bean soup and no fat or sugar yogurt that I mix my Maca in and grapes.

For dinner I eat a baked potato or brown rice. A serving of lean meat Chicken breast, beef or pork lion. With this 2 different Veg's and a salad.

In between these I eat fruit and have low fat milk and some nights I eat air poped popcorn.

I don't see chocolate in there anywhere. Where's the chocolate?

[hardasnails1973]

Genova hair samples are invalid they do not follow the original protcol for not washing hair. ARL labs follows the original guidelines and actually was accurate on minreals testing verifed by spectracell testing. . Genova or rhein needs to have drs permission to order. I know lef has estrogen testing now I saw it in a magazine, but have not seen it on there web site so you might want to call them on that one. Dr john has graciously worked out a deal with them for free membership stickied above (i beleive) for his fellow gents.

[Dr. John Crisler]

First what needs to be done is to support your body and protect from the toxins of the candida AKA acetaldehyde. How is this done? by supporting the liver pathways that detoxify it. With candida people tend to be undermethylated why? Candida causes inflammmation and inflamation causes histamine release. Candida also interfers with nutrient absorption so there becomes a vicious cycle. The proper order to deal with candida is to choke it off with a higher fat diet (30% ev cocconut oil,), lower carb (gluten free), higher protein and to prevent food from going racnid with digestive enzymes. Next is to heal leaky gut to seal up the holes that toxins which should stay the small intestine are leaking into the liver causing more stress. 3 step is to releive the stress from the over burden liver by balancing the pathways. 4 step is replenish the good bacteria that have been destroyed. look into florastar http://www.florastor.com/article.asp?id=1140
which will literally eat candida. Like i said every thing falls back to autism one way or another

Do you suppose this is why those who suffer candida often describe symptoms resembling alcoholic hangover?

[hardasnails1973]

By what criteria do you determine your methylation status?

Given the fact that in an amino urine test that I was found to be elevated sarcosine levels and through reseach the only way to plus the whole was with folonic acid or b-2. Well Previous blood testing showed that I had folate levels that where off the charts and was not taking no excessive folate supplementation other then what was in multivitamin. Elevated folate in the blood and elevated sarcsoine indicates folic acid defieincy or a functional folate deficeincy (due to folic acid not converting to folnic acid). I also had 3 times high end of histmaine urine (big red flag !! )
Also to when exammining the amino acid test it alerted me of homocysteine was going towards CBS pathway and was pissing out taurine at an incredible rate which again was indicating zinc defieincy which results in undermethyation. Plus my homocysteine level was at 3.5 which is classic of that of an austic child. Plus just recently I tested low 2,4 methyl estrones which further indicated that i was not methyating estrones properly. I also had low phosphodyl choline in my RBC cells that this is formed from conversion with sam-e . Dr PAtricia Kane jumped on the methylation factor right away as well. I can gladly provide those urine test to show you the pathways to see

[hardasnails1973]

Do you suppose this is why those who suffer candida often describe symptoms resembling alcoholic hangover?

YES SIR..Why I apporoach candida as NASH and affects the nervous system as the same. So you kind of handle it as alcohol with draw protocol. Thats what i am doing with one of the guys on here and with in 2 days feeling incredible..

[kanecore]

Given the fact that in an amino urine test that I was found to be elevated sarcosine levels and through reseach the only way to plus the whole was with folonic acid or b-2. Well Previous blood testing showed that I had folate levels that where off the charts and was not taking no excessive folate supplementation other then what was in multivitamin. Elevated folate in the blood and elevated sarcsoine indicates folic acid defieincy or a functional folate deficeincy (due to folic acid not converting to folnic acid)
Also to when exammining the amino acid test it alerted me of homocysteine was going towards CBS pathway and was pissing out taurine at an incredible rate which again was indicating zinc defieincy which results in undermethyation. Plus my homocysteine level was at 3.5 which is classic of that of an austic child. Plus just recently I tested low 2,4 methyl estrones which further indicated that i was not methyating estrones properly. I also had low phosphodyl choline in my RBC cells that this is formed from conversion with sam-e . Dr PAtricia Kane jumped on the methylation factor right away as well. I can gladly provide those urine test to show you the pathways to see

Might this be why I feel a thousand times better now that I take 30mg of Opti-Zinc ED?

[hardasnails1973]

there are alot of possibilities from any of the 300 enymatic reactions znc is involved with.. Duh candida causes probably increase estrogen levels, elevated copper tissues zinc helps sequester copper up in the intestinal tract by filling up the metallione(spelling) fingers

[Dr. John Crisler]

Given the fact that in an amino urine test that I was found to be elevated sarcosine levels and through reseach the only way to plus the whole was with folonic acid or b-2. Well Previous blood testing showed that I had folate levels that where off the charts and was not taking no excessive folate supplementation other then what was in multivitamin. Elevated folate in the blood and elevated sarcsoine indicates folic acid defieincy or a functional folate deficeincy (due to folic acid not converting to folnic acid). I also had 3 times high end of histmaine urine (big red flag !! )
Also to when exammining the amino acid test it alerted me of homocysteine was going towards CBS pathway and was pissing out taurine at an incredible rate which again was indicating zinc defieincy which results in undermethyation. Plus my homocysteine level was at 3.5 which is classic of that of an austic child. Plus just recently I tested low 2,4 methyl estrones which further indicated that i was not methyating estrones properly. I also had low phosphodyl choline in my RBC cells that this is formed from conversion with sam-e . Dr PAtricia Kane jumped on the methylation factor right away as well. I can gladly provide those urine test to show you the pathways to see

Is this a COMT (catecholamine methyl transferase) deficiency?

[Dr. John Crisler]

Given the fact that in an amino urine test that I was found to be elevated sarcosine levels and through reseach the only way to plus the whole was with folonic acid or b-2. Well Previous blood testing showed that I had folate levels that where off the charts and was not taking no excessive folate supplementation other then what was in multivitamin. Elevated folate in the blood and elevated sarcsoine indicates folic acid defieincy or a functional folate deficeincy (due to folic acid not converting to folnic acid). I also had 3 times high end of histmaine urine (big red flag !! )
Also to when exammining the amino acid test it alerted me of homocysteine was going towards CBS pathway and was pissing out taurine at an incredible rate which again was indicating zinc defieincy which results in undermethyation. Plus my homocysteine level was at 3.5 which is classic of that of an austic child. Plus just recently I tested low 2,4 methyl estrones which further indicated that i was not methyating estrones properly. I also had low phosphodyl choline in my RBC cells that this is formed from conversion with sam-e . Dr PAtricia Kane jumped on the methylation factor right away as well. I can gladly provide those urine test to show you the pathways to see

It would seem then that those who undermethylate are at increased risk of cancer; not just because it takes methyl groups to repair DNA damage, but also a deficiency in 2-methoxyestradiol (cancer protective) and increased 4-OHE (since it is not being washed downstream to 4-methoxyestrone (via COMT).

[Dr. John Crisler]

there are alot of possibilities from any of the 300 enymatic reactions znc is involved with.. Duh candida causes probably increase estrogen levels, elevated copper tissues zinc helps sequester copper up in the intestinal tract by filling up the metallione(spelling) fingers

Since when did you worry about spelling?

[hardasnails1973]

ACtually that is what i was thinking too which magneisum defieincy wouldl result in and sam-e would over ride this. Crazy as it sounds that lack of e2 for prolong peroid of time can actually cause a COMT defieincy because some estrogen is needed to methyated it self (weird huh). E2 defiecincy leads decreases retention of calcium and also magnesium resulting in potential magnesium deficiency. Whats your opinoins on that one. COMT defiency could also affect neurotramsitters as well specifically dopamine.

[hardasnails1973]

Since when did you worry about spelling?

That word has always been a nuisance among half the others i miss spell to.

I do not know but my prostrate is doing much better HAHAHA

I swear some times I feel like a walking encyclopedia..if some one ask me a questio i will find the answer if it is out there eventually, but in the end I just do not want to blow smoke up ones ass I rather give them accurate information

[scottyo]

This thread has been a great wealth of info, Im just not sure if what we've actually nailed down, specifically B12's relation to all this.

I know that on my organic acids urines my magnesium still showed potential deficiency, and Ive been taking 500mg for a while now, probably 6 months. I know we need to get the b12 up and working...so once I get those shots sent ill be starting those up.

Im wondering if some of my ED/premature issues (something never been familiar with, esp. the second even when other things were not entirely 'kosher) are related to similar prostate issues. I know that I used to have all the prostate related stuff, the dripping, etc. when I used to abuse ephedrine, early in life and often. I know my PSA checked out very good, but could there be other related issues there.

[pmgamer18]

I don't see chocolate in there anywhere. Where's the chocolate?

I let my GrandKids eat it.:D

[pmgamer18]

Have you seen this link.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/9/3027

ACtually that is what i was thinking too which magneisum defieincy wouldl result in and sam-e would over ride this. Crazy as it sounds that lack of e2 for prolong peroid of time can actually cause a COMT defieincy because some estrogen is needed to methyated it self (weird huh). E2 defiecincy leads decreases retention of calcium and also magnesium resulting in potential magnesium deficiency. Whats your opinoins on that one. COMT defiency could also affect neurotramsitters as well specifically dopamine.