Is there a problem with high test?

[Nemesis]

I have been on 200mg of test cyp. It is broken down to 100mg every tuesday night and saturday morning. The blood work listed was done on friday morning. I feel great and the classic symptons of andropause are gone. Before my levels were at 380 and I felt like an old man. What do you guys think? Is high test a problem? Should I worry about the estrogen.


CBC With Differential/Platelet
WBC 6.2 xl0E3/uL 4.0 - 10.5
RBC 5.41 xl0E6/uL 4.10 - 5.60
Hemoglobin 15.6 g/dL 12.5 - 17.0
Hematocrit 47.8 % 36.0 - 50.0
MCV 88 fL 80 - 98
MCH 28.8 pg 27.0 - 34.0
MCHC 32.6 g/dL 32.0 - 36.0
RDW 14.4 % 11.7 - 15.0
Platelets 220 xl0E3/uL 140 - 415
Neutrophils 54 % 40 -74
Lymphs 29 % 14 - 46
Monocytes 11 % 4 - 13
Eos 5 % 0 - 7
Basos 1 % 0 - 3
Neutrophils (Absolute)3.3 x10E3/uL 1.8 - 7.8
Lymphs (Absolute) 1.8 xl0E3/uL 0.7 - 4.5
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.7 xl0E3/uL 0.1 - 1.0
Eos (Absolute) 0.3 xl0E3/uL 0.0 - 0.4
Baso (Absolute) 0.1 xl0E3/uL 0.0 - 0.2
Comp. Metabolic Panel (14)
Glucose, Serum 76 mg/dL 65 - 99
BUN 16 mg/dL 5 - 26
Creatinine, Serum 1.1 mg/dL 0.5 - 1.5
Glom Filt Rate, Est >60 mL/min 60.0 - 137.0
If African-American >60 mL/min 60.0 - 137.0
Note: Persistent reduction for 3 months or more in an eGFR
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 15 8 - 27
Sodium, Serum 139 mmol/L 135 - 148
Potassium, Serum 4.3 mmol/L 3.5 - 5.5
Chloride, Serum 99 mmol/L 96 - 109
Carbon Dioxide, Total 23 mmol/L 20 - 32
Calcium, Serum 9.0 mg/dL 8.5 - 10.6
Protein, Total, Serum 7.2 g/dL 6.0 - 8.5
Albumin, Serum 4.3 g/dL 3.5 - 5.5

Globulin, Total 2.9 g/dL 1.5 - 4.5
A/G Ratio 1.5 1.1 - 2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.7 mg/dL 0.1 - 1.2
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 47 IU/L 25 - 150
AST (SGOT) 36 IU/L 0 - 40
ALT (SGPT) 37 IU/L 0 - 55

Lipid Panel
Cholesterol, Total 147 mg/dL 100 - 199
Triglycerides 47 mg/dL 0 - 149
HDL Cholesterol 45 mg/dL 40 - 59
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 9 mg/dL 5 - 40
LDL Cholesterol Calc 93 mg/dL 0 - 99

Testosterone,Free+Weakly Bound
Testosterone, Serum 1299 H ng/dL 241 - 827
Testost., % Free+Weakly Bound 44.4% 9.0 - 46.0
> Testost., F+W Bound 576.8H ng/dL 40.0 - 250.0

Free testost. 42.7 pg/mL 8.7 - 25.1
T4 free 1.20 ng/dl .61 - 1.76

FSH and LH
LH <0.3 L mIU/mL 1.5 - 9.3
FSH .03 L mIU/ml 1.4-18.1





Thyroxine (T4) Free, Direct, S
T4,Free(Direct) 1.20 ng/dL 0.61 - 1.76
Estradiol
> Estradiol 66 H pg/mL 0 - 53
Adult Male: <54

Bayer Centaur/ACS Methodology IGF-1
Insulin-Like Growth Factor I 220 ng/mL 109 - 284

Prostate-Specific Ag, Serum
Prostate-Specific Ag, Serum 0.5 ng/mL 0.0 - 4.0

TSH 0.995 uIU/mL 0.350 - 5.500
Thyroxine (T4) 5.7 ug/dL 4.5 - 12.0
Prolactin 18.8H ng/mL 2.1 - 17.7

Sex Horm Binding Glob,Serum 33 nmol/L 13 -71
Cortisol - AM 13.7 ug/dL 4.3 - 22.4

[pmgamer18]

At this high does you can thicken your blood and your driving up your Estradiol levels. Your test show your over the top of the range this is not good your going to drive your cortisol levels nuts. It's sad you went this high to start most good Dr. will start you lower and work you up into the levels. Now if you lower your dose your going to have a time of it if you go down to fast. And you do need to go down on this dose. Your on top of the world now but it will not last.

[Nemesis]

cortisol is within range. Can you expand on your thoughts on cortisol and what can happen.

[BigAk]

Man... That's not TRT... That's a "bodybuilder-seeking-an-edge" type of therapy. I'm surprised of your doctor and question his credibility.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I'd also note that you have not the correct E2 assay. Proof this if not valid is the high BAT/TT ratio. If estrogen really is that high, BAT should be lower.

[phatkid77]

my dumb azz input

some would be worried i would gather, but correct me if im wrong

is there not a "long term" study out there, 600mg enanthate/wk for a few yrs, no sides reported??

phats

this maybe??

University of Chicago Press - Cookie absent

[Dr. John Crisler]

my dumb azz input

some would be worried i would gather, but correct me if im wrong

is there not a "long term" study out there, 600mg enanthate/wk for a few yrs, no sides reported??

phats

this maybe??

University of Chicago Press - Cookie absent

Maybe someone should dig up this study and post it in its own thread, so we can go over it together.

[Dr. John Crisler]

These levels are also on one of your two lowest days of the week.

[JanSz]

SHBG=33
per my table you should need about 170mg/week
You would know better where you are if you could do tests at Quest Diagnostics
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
You aim at
FreeE2 (0.45 - 0.6)
BAT ~575 (you are about there, just probably your test is from LabCorp)
using chart your FreeT=340, it should be about 300, reason to lower (slightly) T dose, say 180.
more important now is to figure out your E2 status (blood) (Use Arimidex or derivative)
after that do EstroEssence test and see how you are metabolizing E2
keep eye on high Prolactin
get
FreeT3
tested,
get it to a top of range
if you have a patience, use T4 first,
if your body can metabolize T4 -->T3 you will have additional benefit, better stability.
T4 long half life, T3 short half life
If not, use Armour as much as neccesary to get you there.
--------------------------------------------
There is a whole other aspect to your health than T, E2, T3
Ask for it,
take care of it.

[BigAk]

SHBG=33
per my table you should need about 170mg/week.

Jan... You always ask people to provide you with their shbg so you'll whip out how much test they need to inject per week.. I am not sure your methodology is accurate... SHBG is not a constant value... If that person above starts injecting 170mg/week, his SHBG will change in correspondence.. Then what would you do?? Come up with a new mg figure for injection??... How did you come up to your conclusion to do so and what is the formula you're using?? There are many variables that play in this... not only SHBG... and they all shift and change accordingly and differ from one guy to another... I'm just skeptical as to how you've arrived at your formula here.

[Nemesis]

One of my concerns is estrogen was at 25 and now it is at 66. Then again my test was at 380 and I felt like garbage. Test has gone up over 3X and estrogen 2.6X so I guess the estrogen while looking at the big picture is OK.

My main question is for what reason or reasons should I go down in test. I am presently thinking of going from 100mg every 3.5 days.

[BigAk]

My main question is for what reason or reasons should I go down in test.

Are you for real????... Your testosterone levels are abnormally above range... How is that healthy for you in the long run???.... And Dr. John has pointed out to you that these values were taken during your lowest days of the week!!!

Are you seeking TRT or else???

[JanSz]

Jan... You always ask people to provide you with their shbg so you'll whip out how much test they need to inject per week.. I am not sure your methodology is accurate... SHBG is not a constant value... If that person above starts injecting 170mg/week, his SHBG will change in correspondence.. Then what would you do?? Come up with a new mg figure for injection??... How did you come up to your conclusion to do so and what is the formula you're using?? There are many variables that play in this... not only SHBG... and they all shift and change accordingly and differ from one guy to another... I'm just skeptical as to how you've arrived at your formula here.

Do not be sceptical of my formula.
Check the post where I derive it.
If you find error there, I will make adjustment.
All is based on research.
I provided link to that research.
Everything changes, including SHBG.
That is why we are constantly testing and adjusting.
Nothing new here.
My table I suggest at approximate initial dose.
I also use it as sanity check.

[Nemesis]

Are you for real????... Your testosterone levels are abnormally above range... How is that healthy for you in the long run???.... And Dr. John has pointed out to you that these values were taken during your lowest days of the week!!!

Are you seeking TRT or else???

Ok how is it unhealthy in the long run? I am not trying to be difficult just trying to learn. And as a point of reference I have NEVER done an illegal drug or any type of steriod supplementation until now after suffering with andropause for 3 years. Even now I just feel back to normal.

[JanSz]

One of my concerns is estrogen was at 25 and now it is at 66. Then again my test was at 380 and I felt like garbage. Test has gone up over 3X and estrogen 2.6X so I guess the estrogen while looking at the big picture is OK.

My main question is for what reason or reasons should I go down in test. I am presently thinking of going from 100mg every 3.5 days.

The reason for the suggestion to go little down on your test is because of the premise that we are operating under.

We are after good health.

We are assuming that restoring important hormones to high range of youth full levels is the way to go.

Going over those ranges would harm out long term health.

================================================== =
I am 5'-9", 164#, 67yo, in relatively good shape but newer over-exercised or ower-worked strenously.
Newer used any drugs or steroids other than little alcohol.

To see what I am doing check this links:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/77385-jansz-metabolic-analysis.html

[Wise Guy]

Jan... You always ask people to provide you with their shbg so you'll whip out how much test they need to inject per week.. I am not sure your methodology is accurate... SHBG is not a constant value... If that person above starts injecting 170mg/week, his SHBG will change in correspondence.. Then what would you do?? Come up with a new mg figure for injection??... How did you come up to your conclusion to do so and what is the formula you're using?? There are many variables that play in this... not only SHBG... and they all shift and change accordingly and differ from one guy to another... I'm just skeptical as to how you've arrived at your formula here.

That is a really good post. I've been reading up on steroids. It is common that when one is cycling for the SHBG to go down. So what your saying makes sense

[BigAk]

Do not be sceptical of my formula.
Check the post where I derive it.
If you find error there, I will make adjustment.
All is based on research.
I provided link to that research.
Everything changes, including SHBG.
That is why we are constantly testing and adjusting.
Nothing new here.
My table I suggest at approximate initial dose.
I also use it as sanity check.

Ok.. Where's the post where you derived this data Jan.. I'm interested in learning.

[T800]

My experience with Test being too high is that:

1. It takes awhile to catch up to you. You initially feel great and then ...
2. Pathway suppression is extensive. DHEA, Pregnenolone, and even cholesterol itself can lower in the presence of high androgens.
3. When #2 catches up to you, you generally feel like garbage.
4. The rise in E2 is not immediately felt, but once it is there, it makes you feel like hell and it is hard to control.
5. It can send Hemoglobin and Hematocrit levels over the limit and create probs with blood thickening and blood pressure.

I'm glad that you're feeling better, but my guess is that on that therapy, the side effects will eventually catch up to you and once they do, they will outweigh the benefits.

Sonny

[Nemesis]

My experience with Test being too high is that:

1. It takes awhile to catch up to you. You initially feel great and then ...
2. Pathway suppression is extensive. DHEA, Pregnenolone, and even cholesterol itself can lower in the presence of high androgens.
3. When #2 catches up to you, you generally feel like garbage.
4. The rise in E2 is not immediately felt, but once it is there, it makes you feel like hell and it is hard to control.
5. It can send Hemoglobin and Hematocrit levels over the limit and create probs with blood thickening and blood pressure.

I'm glad that you're feeling better, but my guess is that on that therapy, the side effects will eventually catch up to you and once they do, they will outweigh the benefits.

Sonny

thank you for this post as it is what I was looking for. I will be lowering my doses soon. What do you mean by, "Pathway suppression is extensive."

[BigAk]

thank you for this post as it is what I was looking for. I will be lowering my doses soon. What do you mean by, "Pathway suppression is extensive."

He said it in the same sentence. After a while being on external androgens, you'll be suppressing your body in many ways; not only your HPTA, everything else will follow from DHEA.. to pregnenolone... even Cholesterole. Dr. John currently has many of his patients on Pregnenolone creams etc..

Basically, eventually you'll find yourself on a whole bunch of meds in order to compensate for whatever your body is not producing naturally on its own... Did this come to your mind when you were contemplating going on TRT a few months ago??? ... bet not... Sometimes, thyroid takes an eventual hit.. then you'll find yourself taking even more meds to rectify that.. Everything eventually becomes a balancing act that will require contant turning and rebalancing.

[phatkid77]

oh well, fack it... its quite obvious there is no perfect rememdy, and every path has its consequences and setbacks....

phats

[Nemesis]

He said it in the same sentence. After a while being on external androgens, you'll be suppressing your body in many ways; not only your HPTA, everything else will follow from DHEA.. to pregnenolone... even Cholesterole. Dr. John currently has many of his patients on Pregnenolone creams etc..

Basically, eventually you'll find yourself on a whole bunch of meds in order to compensate for whatever your body is not producing naturally on its own... Did this come to your mind when you were contemplating going on TRT a few months ago??? ... bet not... Sometimes, thyroid takes an eventual hit.. then you'll find yourself taking even more meds to rectify that.. Everything eventually becomes a balancing act that will require contant turning and rebalancing.

I thought about it for 3 years. My symptons weren't in my mind. I can tell you every rep, set, workout, weight, and how I felt for over 10 years. For the past 3 I could not take the andropause. I decided deal with aging proactively. This seemed a better option to easy workouts and resting a lot looking at a TV.

[T800]

I thought about it for 3 years. My symptons weren't in my mind. I can tell you every rep, set, workout, weight, and how I felt for over 10 years. For the past 3 I could not take the andropause. I decided deal with aging proactively. This seemed a better option to easy workouts and resting a lot looking at a TV.

Nobody can fault you for that, man. Who wants to grow old feeling crappy? I sure don't! Like with anything though, too much of something that is good can often turn into something that is bad...even if it feels good in the beginning.

Most everyone will agree that in terms of its 'power', estrogen packs a hell of a lot more clout than testosterone. For a lot of guys, they feel much worse with high Test + high Estrogen vs low Test + low Estrogen. The ideal setup would have you dose your Testosterone such that Estrogen control is not needed. It's desirable, but not always possible. In general, you want to avoid aromatase inhibitors (that reduce T to E conversion) since:

1. Your are adding more to the mix
2. The dosing is often tricky. Take too much, your estrogen goes too low...you feel bad. Take too little, it stays high...you feel bad.
3. Arimidex (the most common AI for TRT) is generally not friendly to your lipid profiles.
4. Arimidex is not covered by a lot of insurance companies for use as part of TRT. 2 of my ins companies have declined it. You can always buy research grade, but when you're treating a medical condition, pharm grade is best IMO.

Sonny

[JanSz]

Nobody can fault you for that, man. Who wants to grow old feeling crappy? I sure don't! Like with anything though, too much of something that is good can often turn into something that is bad...even if it feels good in the beginning.

Most everyone will agree that in terms of its 'power', estrogen packs a hell of a lot more clout than testosterone. For a lot of guys, they feel much worse with high Test + high Estrogen vs low Test + low Estrogen. The ideal setup would have you dose your Testosterone such that Estrogen control is not needed. It's desirable, but not always possible. In general, you want to avoid aromatase inhibitors (that reduce T to E conversion) since:

1. Your are adding more to the mix
2. The dosing is often tricky. Take too much, your estrogen goes too low...you feel bad. Take too little, it stays high...you feel bad.
3. Arimidex (the most common AI for TRT) is generally not friendly to your lipid profiles.
4. Arimidex is not covered by a lot of insurance companies for use as part of TRT. 2 of my ins companies have declined it. You can always buy research grade, but when you're treating a medical condition, pharm grade is best IMO.

Sonny

Have you ever tried dissolving Arimidex in pure alcohol or any other consumable liquid?

[JanSz]

Ok.. Where's the post where you derived this data Jan.. I'm interested in learning.

Post #40

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

And remember,
after you read the table you will arrive at the initial approximate dose
use that dose until next blood draw, not less than 6 weeks.
Preferably use E2D schedule
alternating T shots with 380iu hcg shots
use this test at Quest to make T dose adjustments,
aim for top of BAT.
Testosterone Bioavailable (110.0-575.0)ng/dL



66 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS) http://cas2.questdiagnostics.com/scripts/webdos.wls?MGWLPN=QDCIAP20&wlapp=DOS&OrderCode=14966X&SITE=4&SearchString=BIOAVAIL&tmradio=title
67 /------------------------------------ Testosterone Total (included in T panel)
68 /------------------------------------ Testosterone Free(included in T panel)
69 /------------------------------------ Testosterone Bioavailable(included in T panel)
70 /------------------------------------ SHBG(included in T panel)
71 /------------------------------------ Albumin, serum(included in T panel)