Adrenal function

[wondering]

ok... what to make of Adrenal function (or what other conclusions can be drawn) from someone who is on TRT, has good T levels, ok E2 levels, low'ish Thyroid and upper range DHEA and lower range 8AM Cortisol.

Can the T supplementation elevate the DHEA and mask poor Adrenal function... I have initiated Armour and supplements for Adrenals NOT HC, as the good DHEA levels seem to contadict the low Cortisol levels. Not convinced I dont need HC, but curious about the seemingly opposing DHEA and Cortisol.

thank you.

[pmgamer18]

Here is a link to a FAQ's they put together at STTM site before they closed the fourms. I hope this helps you.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/faq/

ok... what to make of Adrenal function (or what other conclusions can be drawn) from someone who is on TRT, has good T levels, ok E2 levels, low'ish Thyroid and upper range DHEA and lower range 8AM Cortisol.

Can the T supplementation elevate the DHEA and mask poor Adrenal function... I have initiated Armour and supplements for Adrenals NOT HC, as the good DHEA levels seem to contadict the low Cortisol levels. Not convinced I dont need HC, but curious about the seemingly opposing DHEA and Cortisol.

thank you.

[T800]

Great link, Phil.

Sonny

[wondering]

ok.. relooked at some old lab reports ofne.. DHEAS was at top of range and sometimes slightly over top of range even pre-TRT. Its the same post TRT. 8AM Cortisol on the low side and 24hr Urine Cortisol (F) from Rhein was 153 (ref 35-168) I understand Urine cant be read as straight as BW, but seems like levels later in day must be higher if 8AM is low. The Urine was taken in July anf most recent BW few weeks ago.

Any clues here? what does high end DHEAS and low 8AM Cortisol mean? anything?

Phil - read thru that link you posetd and didnt see a mention of this just low DHEAS and low cortisol.

Thyroid seems an issue, just wanna make sure Adrenals have enough support. Again only taking some OTC supps (Adrenogen And Adrenoset).

thanks


ok... what to make of Adrenal function (or what other conclusions can be drawn) from someone who is on TRT, has good T levels, ok E2 levels, low'ish Thyroid and upper range DHEA and lower range 8AM Cortisol.

Can the T supplementation elevate the DHEA and mask poor Adrenal function... I have initiated Armour and supplements for Adrenals NOT HC, as the good DHEA levels seem to contadict the low Cortisol levels. Not convinced I dont need HC, but curious about the seemingly opposing DHEA and Cortisol.

thank you.

[wondering]

BUMP...

any ideas on pre-TRT...
Testosterone 248 (300 - 1000)
DHEAS of 529 (100-something - 500)
Low normal 8AM Cortisol?
Further evidence of Adrenal issues?

Post TRT
everything same except for good Testosterone.

-------

ok.. relooked at some old lab reports ofne.. DHEAS was at top of range and sometimes slightly over top of range even pre-TRT. Its the same post TRT. 8AM Cortisol on the low side and 24hr Urine Cortisol (F) from Rhein was 153 (ref 35-168) I understand Urine cant be read as straight as BW, but seems like levels later in day must be higher if 8AM is low. The Urine was taken in July anf most recent BW few weeks ago.

Any clues here? what does high end DHEAS and low 8AM Cortisol mean? anything?

Phil - read thru that link you posetd and didnt see a mention of this just low DHEAS and low cortisol.

Thyroid seems an issue, just wanna make sure Adrenals have enough support. Again only taking some OTC supps (Adrenogen And Adrenoset).

thanks

[bgnb]

here's my two cents:

I think WAY too much is made of 'adrenal fatigue' WHEN low testosterone
is present ...

simple reason: low test does stress the entire body (its why we develop
metabolic syndrome and have heart attacks and strokes) and so our
adrenals do have to work harder to compensate for a lack of testosterone.

however, once you get on TRT the adrenals should, over time, start
to relax and return to a more normal function on their own.

Everyone 'believes' cortisol is the stress hormone ... it is ONLY when
there is insufficient amounts of testosterone to deal with the stress.

Simply put, all stress is 'fight or flight' which releases adrenaline ... this
stimulates the release of glucose and insulin ... but in order to up-take
insulin we need testosterone ... without it, the insulin and sugar just
circulate and our body is stimulated to release cortisol which reacts
with the sugar and insulin to make fat.

However, if there is enough testosterone present, the insulin and sugar
are taken into the cells for energy and we actually thrive on the 'stress' ...

This is why women are having heart attacks in their 30's (in their 20's
when on birth control) because estrogen does NOT protect us from
heart attacks ... that's one of the biggest medical myths on the planet ...

it came out of studies on women at home who had low stress and
lived to be 80 ... it did not study women who had to work every day
and experience the same levels of stress as men:

and now research shows men with low test are the ones having heart
attacks, not men with high testosterone.

But good luck convincing the medical profession to change their minds!

But the bottom line is that you should give TRT time to work before
going into panic mode about your adrenals ... most cases of low test
did not happen over-night and the benefits and changes to health
are not necessarily going to happen over-night either.

Going on HC for adrenal fatigue typically takes up to a year for results,
so going on TRT and getting your levels of test and est stable and then
waiting a year would be prudent.

But that is just my opinion.

[pmgamer18]

This is way up in the air what came first the Egg or the Chicken. Dr.'s like Marianco you can find a ton of posts by him at MESO here is link to one.
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/adrenal-thread-134240195.html

He feels low Cortisol level and Thyroid are the cause of low Testosterone and fixing this the testosterone levels come back up. So you can't get this Dr. to give you testosterone with out trying this first.

I feel if your testing shows both treat both at the same time and later if things get better go off TRT. I know of 3 men that did this.

[bgnb]

it is like that isn't it! :)

but it is also easier to get on TRT through a conventional doctor
than to get any treatment for thyroid/adrenals ... I have heard
horror stories about how resistant physicians here can be to
any type of treatment.

I knew one woman who had severe thyroid problems, her mom had
them, her daughter had them and the doctors kept putting her on
anti-depressants instead ... when she finally found a doctor who would
listen and would treat her the symptoms were ameliorated almost
instantly ... she said it was like someone threw a switch!

I have actually considered moving to the US to get proper treatment ...
the doctors here are useless and therefore dangerous ...





This is way up in the air what came first the Egg or the Chicken. Dr.'s like Marianco you can find a ton of posts by him at MESO here is link to one.
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/adrenal-thread-134240195.html

He feels low Cortisol level and Thyroid are the cause of low Testosterone and fixing this the testosterone levels come back up. So you can't get this Dr. to give you testosterone with out trying this first.

I feel if your testing shows both treat both at the same time and later if things get better go off TRT. I know of 3 men that did this.

[T800]

In the past, Testosterone has worsened my thyroid and adrenal function.

Similarly, treatment of adrenals and thyroid has caused my testosterone to rise. I have not been able to feel good with just one of those therapies alone.

I do think this type of stuff is dose-depedant though. Before I knew anything about thyroid/adrenal stuff, I went on TRT (with Testosterone alone at 400mg/every 3 weeks...hey thanks, doc). The swings in how I felt were horrendous. I did see something that I had not seen before though:

Pre TRT:
Total Test: Always in the mid-high 200's
TSH: Always in the 1.0 to 1.5 range (tested probably 10x)
Free T3: Not tested

TRT Round 1 (2004 -- 400mg every 3 weeks of Test Cyp)
Total Test: 1249 H (241-827)
TSH: 3.36 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: Not tested

TSH is a flawed test, but with so many repeatable TSHs to have it almost triple is noteworthy.

TRT Round 3 (2006 -- 20mg/day of Nolvadex, 3 grains/day Armour)
Total Test: 585 (241-827)
TSH: 0.01 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: 398 (230-420)

TRT Round 4 (2007 -- 100mg/week Test + 500 iu/week HCG + 3 grains/day Armour)
Total Test: 645 (241-827)
TSH: 0.01 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: 333 (230-420)

Why does exogeneous Testosterone lower my thyroid output? The answer (I think and this is what Dr Mariano believes) is that it is because it slows adrenal output (good for some -- I verified this through labs which show drops in cortisol and DHEA) which decreases thyroid efficiency.

This is also why I think Dr John's use of pregnenolone cream is right on.

Sonny

[pmgamer18]

You would not believe the storys I have heard about low testosterone and Adrenal Thyroid problems here is the US.

The best Dr.'s are DO's I hear this every where MD's and Endo's are the worst. This is a big problem accross the world. We are bombarded with crap they spray on are crops and the junk they feed our meat then shoot them up with estrogens before they are sold. WTF we move forward in health and go backwards in every thing else. All for the sake of money your life is not worth crap to the big money people in the world. Look at the crap they are leting China get away with killing are kids with lead.

For every step science takes forward big money takes 2 backwards.

it is like that isn't it! :)

but it is also easier to get on TRT through a conventional doctor
than to get any treatment for thyroid/adrenals ... I have heard
horror stories about how resistant physicians here can be to
any type of treatment.

I knew one woman who had severe thyroid problems, her mom had
them, her daughter had them and the doctors kept putting her on
anti-depressants instead ... when she finally found a doctor who would
listen and would treat her the symptoms were ameliorated almost
instantly ... she said it was like someone threw a switch!

I have actually considered moving to the US to get proper treatment ...
the doctors here are useless and therefore dangerous ...

[pmgamer18]

Yes I do believe this happens as I went on Cortef I had to lower my dose of TRT big time. Then I found out my Aldosterone levels were low and went on Florinef this made my DHEA that has allways been low shoot why back up. Today I don't take DHEA.

In the past, Testosterone has worsened my thyroid and adrenal function.

Similarly, treatment of adrenals and thyroid has caused my testosterone to rise. I have not been able to feel good with just one of those therapies alone.

I do think this type of stuff is dose-depedant though. Before I knew anything about thyroid/adrenal stuff, I went on TRT (with Testosterone alone at 400mg/every 3 weeks...hey thanks, doc). The swings in how I felt were horrendous. I did see something that I had not seen before though:

Pre TRT:
Total Test: Always in the mid-high 200's
TSH: Always in the 1.0 to 1.5 range (tested probably 10x)
Free T3: Not tested

TRT Round 1 (2004 -- 400mg every 3 weeks of Test Cyp)
Total Test: 1249 H (241-827)
TSH: 3.36 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: Not tested

TSH is a flawed test, but with so many repeatable TSHs to have it almost triple is noteworthy.

TRT Round 3 (2006 -- 20mg/day of Nolvadex, 3 grains/day Armour)
Total Test: 585 (241-827)
TSH: 0.01 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: 398 (230-420)

TRT Round 4 (2007 -- 100mg/week Test + 500 iu/week HCG + 3 grains/day Armour)
Total Test: 645 (241-827)
TSH: 0.01 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: 333 (230-420)

Why does exogeneous Testosterone lower my thyroid output? The answer (I think and this is what Dr Mariano believes) is that it is because it slows adrenal output (good for some -- I verified this through labs which show drops in cortisol and DHEA) which decreases thyroid efficiency.

This is also why I think Dr John's use of pregnenolone cream is right on.

Sonny

[wondering]

well i am convinced that Adrenals are my first issue follwed by Thyroid. I have been on TRT for 13 months and feel as bad as I have ever felt. Anxiety is bad, libido sucks. So idea that TRT needs time to work isnt it. At least for me. And no E2 isnt issue either. My test is ideal and E2 right in middle of range.

1st 4 days of takign OTC Adrenal supps and 1/4 grain armour my mind cleared up, energy up, ears cleared up, scalp itch disappeared. Then after 5-6 days Anxiety has crept back.

I post lots of questions I guess lookign for someone to reaffirm my thoughts, but I have just done that myself. I know my body and my new doctor who I happen to like will receive a phone call Monday. I am not waiting 5 weeks for next appt. Just had dinner with co-workers who I have known for 10 years and the close social setting was uncomfortable for me. WTF. I know these people so well why would i be anxious to be with them. Amazing how this has progressed.

Thanks for your time and hope to have good news soon.
- take care of yourselves.


here's my two cents:

I think WAY too much is made of 'adrenal fatigue' WHEN low testosterone
is present ...

simple reason: low test does stress the entire body (its why we develop
metabolic syndrome and have heart attacks and strokes) and so our
adrenals do have to work harder to compensate for a lack of testosterone.

however, once you get on TRT the adrenals should, over time, start
to relax and return to a more normal function on their own.

Everyone 'believes' cortisol is the stress hormone ... it is ONLY when
there is insufficient amounts of testosterone to deal with the stress.

Simply put, all stress is 'fight or flight' which releases adrenaline ... this
stimulates the release of glucose and insulin ... but in order to up-take
insulin we need testosterone ... without it, the insulin and sugar just
circulate and our body is stimulated to release cortisol which reacts
with the sugar and insulin to make fat.

However, if there is enough testosterone present, the insulin and sugar
are taken into the cells for energy and we actually thrive on the 'stress' ...

This is why women are having heart attacks in their 30's (in their 20's
when on birth control) because estrogen does NOT protect us from
heart attacks ... that's one of the biggest medical myths on the planet ...

it came out of studies on women at home who had low stress and
lived to be 80 ... it did not study women who had to work every day
and experience the same levels of stress as men:

and now research shows men with low test are the ones having heart
attacks, not men with high testosterone.

But good luck convincing the medical profession to change their minds!

But the bottom line is that you should give TRT time to work before
going into panic mode about your adrenals ... most cases of low test
did not happen over-night and the benefits and changes to health
are not necessarily going to happen over-night either.

Going on HC for adrenal fatigue typically takes up to a year for results,
so going on TRT and getting your levels of test and est stable and then
waiting a year would be prudent.

But that is just my opinion.

[T800]

wondering: Given your response to what you tried, I think it is a safe to assume that you have some adrenal and/or thyroid problems.

Dr Mariano's treatment order is:

1. Adrenals
2. Thyroid
3. Testosterone

He said that in people with tuned up adrenals and thyroids, TRT is very easy. The fact that it hasn't been for you should be a hint that something else is amiss.

Sonny

[wondering]

http://www.gdx.net/home/assessments/adrenocortex/appguide/index5.html

"DHEA/Cortisol Ratios..

"Low DHEA/cortisol ratios were recorded in patients with surgical stress, patients with depression, and patients suffering from terminal gynecological malignancy treated with cytotoxic chemotherapy (stressors).115,116 Low DHEA/cortisol ratios were also recorded in patients with anorexia nervosa.117 An increase in DHEA-S/cortisol ratios, however, was found in patients suffering from panic disorders."

Last sentence in above paragraph is significant for me. Most resources speak of low DHEA and low or high Cortsol (depending on stage of Adrenal dysfunction) I am one with high DHEA and lowish Cortisol and increasingly symptom described. Pre-TRT I had a DHEAS of 529 (120-520) with a T of 248 (300-1000)

Most recent BW showed low 8AM Cortisol and same high level of DHEAS.

Now more research to see what low dose HC would do to this DHEAS levels.

[pmgamer18]

I knew if I looked hard enough I would find why your DHEA may be high your at stage 5 or 6 read this link then go back to stage 1 and read it all.
http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%206.html

http://www.gdx.net/home/assessments/adrenocortex/appguide/index5.html

"DHEA/Cortisol Ratios..

"Low DHEA/cortisol ratios were recorded in patients with surgical stress, patients with depression, and patients suffering from terminal gynecological malignancy treated with cytotoxic chemotherapy (stressors).115,116 Low DHEA/cortisol ratios were also recorded in patients with anorexia nervosa.117 An increase in DHEA-S/cortisol ratios, however, was found in patients suffering from panic disorders."

Last sentence in above paragraph is significant for me. Most resources speak of low DHEA and low or high Cortsol (depending on stage of Adrenal dysfunction) I am one with high DHEA and lowish Cortisol and increasingly symptom described. Pre-TRT I had a DHEAS of 529 (120-520) with a T of 248 (300-1000)

Most recent BW showed low 8AM Cortisol and same high level of DHEAS.

Now more research to see what low dose HC would do to this DHEAS levels.

[wondering]

Thanks Phil - think we're finally on to something. I'm gonna try to get ahold of my dr on Monday. Cant wait until after holidays.

Amazing, bad libido started this ball rolling 12 years ago and now its the 2nd issue behind increasing anxiety.

Seems taking low dose HC would actually bring DHEAS down a bit as the body wouldnt be making that last grasp effort.


---

I knew if I looked hard enough I would find why your DHEA may be high your at stage 5 or 6 read this link then go back to stage 1 and read it all.
http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%206.html

[pmgamer18]

Yep your cortisol rhythm is off I read aobut this in Jefferies book going on HC 5 mgs 4 times a day will support your adrenals and the levels will level out. Then like every 6 months try coming off it very slow. A lot of people can't sleep becuase of this and going on HC they sleep again.

[Dr. John Crisler]

here's my two cents:

I think WAY too much is made of 'adrenal fatigue' WHEN low testosterone
is present ...
simple reason: low test does stress the entire body (its why we develop
metabolic syndrome and have heart attacks and strokes) and so our
adrenals do have to work harder to compensate for a lack of testosterone.

however, once you get on TRT the adrenals should, over time, start
to relax and return to a more normal function on their own.

Everyone 'believes' cortisol is the stress hormone ... it is ONLY when
there is insufficient amounts of testosterone to deal with the stress.

Simply put, all stress is 'fight or flight' which releases adrenaline ... this
stimulates the release of glucose and insulin ... but in order to up-take
insulin we need testosterone ... without it, the insulin and sugar just
circulate and our body is stimulated to release cortisol which reacts
with the sugar and insulin to make fat.

However, if there is enough testosterone present, the insulin and sugar
are taken into the cells for energy and we actually thrive on the 'stress' ...

This is why women are having heart attacks in their 30's (in their 20's
when on birth control) because estrogen does NOT protect us from
heart attacks ... that's one of the biggest medical myths on the planet ...

it came out of studies on women at home who had low stress and
lived to be 80 ... it did not study women who had to work every day
and experience the same levels of stress as men:

and now research shows men with low test are the ones having heart
attacks, not men with high testosterone.

But good luck convincing the medical profession to change their minds!

But the bottom line is that you should give TRT time to work before
going into panic mode about your adrenals ... most cases of low test
did not happen over-night and the benefits and changes to health
are not necessarily going to happen over-night either.

Going on HC for adrenal fatigue typically takes up to a year for results,
so going on TRT and getting your levels of test and est stable and then
waiting a year would be prudent.

But that is just my opinion.

So, you're not willing to follow the sheep in today's current Anti-Aging Medicine atmosphere, eh? Well done!

This notion that you must first take six months (or more) to tune up the adrneals and thyroid before considering androgen state is, IMPO, missing the boat. Fundamentally, there is no way doing so will take a man from 250ng/dL to 650ng/dL Total T. Perhaps 10% is what you will get.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Generally DHEA is suppressed in hypogonadal patients--before and after TRT is initiated (as secondary suppression from TRT).

I'd have the test re-run. I'd also look carefully at all your supplelements for some sneaking in somewhere.

[Dr. John Crisler]

well i am convinced that Adrenals are my first issue follwed by Thyroid. I have been on TRT for 13 months and feel as bad as I have ever felt. Anxiety is bad, libido sucks. So idea that TRT needs time to work isnt it. At least for me. And no E2 isnt issue either. My test is ideal and E2 right in middle of range.

1st 4 days of takign OTC Adrenal supps and 1/4 grain armour my mind cleared up, energy up, ears cleared up, scalp itch disappeared. Then after 5-6 days Anxiety has crept back.

I post lots of questions I guess lookign for someone to reaffirm my thoughts, but I have just done that myself. I know my body and my new doctor who I happen to like will receive a phone call Monday. I am not waiting 5 weeks for next appt. Just had dinner with co-workers who I have known for 10 years and the close social setting was uncomfortable for me. WTF. I know these people so well why would i be anxious to be with them. Amazing how this has progressed.

Thanks for your time and hope to have good news soon.
- take care of yourselves.

Have you tried pregnenolone? I'd start with 50mg TD QD. Increase to 100mg QD. If that doesn't work to calm your anxiety, then go to oral pregnenolone.

[wondering]

appreciate the responses - you made a few, so I'll see if I can add more info here...

My DHEAS has been high end of normal or slightly over normal on several occasions both pre-TRT and post-TRT. Meaning more than 1 occasion each. So tests have been verified.

Pre-TRT, I took no supplements, except an occasional multivitamin.
Post TRT, only thing I have taken was Androgel and then Test Cyp for the past 13 months. Nutritional Adrenal support and 1/4 grain of Armour was started last week. After 1 week, upped Armour to 1/2 grain. 1st time I have EVER taken anything else. For first 4 days, improvement in all areas except libido. Scalp itch gone, more energy, brain fog lifted a bit. Anxiety has since crept back, libido still sucks.

So no creeping of DHEA from other sources. All made by my body. I understand 24 hr Urine is harder to interpret than BW, but if useful - my DHEAS level in Rhein panel was double the high end. I believe 5000 something, with top at 2500 range. Not sure what can be made of that, but am certain you are familiar with Rhein, as had this done under your direction to my PCP.

Regarding comment from "bgnb" on too much being made of Adrenal Fatigue in light of low Test, I guess that is for experts like yourself and Marianco to debate. BUT in my case, I have been on Test Cyp with excellent numbers for 13 months and going nowhere, so this argument becomes moot as low Test isn't an issue. E2 was in middle of range on Rhein panel and other Estrogens slightly elevated. My Test was a tad high as was DHT, so I dropped Test Cyp to 90mg from 100mg. Test results since has these numbers looking good.

Also, I am borderline Hypoglycemic also an indicator for Adrenal issues. Maybe an indicator of other issues as well, I'm not sure.

So...

Good T + Good E2 + low end Free T3 + so so Free T4 + TSH around 4 + High DHEAS + low end on 8AM Cortisol + borderline Hypoglycemia + Anxiety + sh!!tY sexual function with no nocturnal erections in 15 years = ????

- supp w/ Preg solves riddle?
- low dose HC solves riddle?
- don't worry about Adrenals and just work Thyroid?
- I'm screwed??

The High DHEAS and low Cortisol is the one that has me baffled and leaning towards Adrenals in light of great T for over a year.

On one occasion in my life I passed out completely from stressful situation and another had to sit down or would have. I mean standing up feeling anxiety creep to panic and going from standing up saying "I don't feel so good" to opening my eyes realizing I am on my back with my buddy slapping my face and thinkign to himself I just died.

Do you believe Preg can solve these 2 big issues (anxiety, libido) all on it's own?


thank you all.



Generally DHEA is suppressed in hypogonadal patients--before and after TRT is initiated (as secondary suppression from TRT).

I'd have the test re-run. I'd also look carefully at all your supplelements for some sneaking in somewhere.

[1cc]

Wondering,

It definitely sounds like you have an Adrenal problem. I have had most of the symptoms you are mentioning. I used to have Adrenal problems, but now no longer suffer from it.

Regarding labs:
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/463815-post13.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/504052-post204.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/473151-post2.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/463870-post15.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/463965-post25.html

There are a number of other posts I have made in the same thread that you will find helpful if you wish to browse it.

Symptoms are normally sufficient to diagnose Adrenal Fatigue and labs can be used to confirm the symptoms.

These are questionnaires to help diagnose Adrenal Fatigue:
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/487779-post190.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/487806-post191.html


I have initiated Armour and supplements for Adrenals NOT HC, as the good DHEA levels seem to contadict the low Cortisol levels. Not convinced I dont need HC, but curious about the seemingly opposing DHEA and Cortisol.


Usually cortisol and DHEA-s are low in Adrenal Fatigue, but that may not always be the case. If you do have Adrenal Fatigue, then it is best to use HC. This will take the some stress off your Adrenals and give them a chance to heal.


Again only taking some OTC supps (Adrenogen And Adrenoset).


The active ingredient in the Adrenogen that is helping you is the unknown amount of cortisol in the “Raw Adrenal Concentrate”. It would be better to use HC which is cortisol, in a more controlled dosage. HC is probably also cheaper.



1st 4 days of takign OTC Adrenal supps and 1/4 grain armour my mind cleared up, energy up, ears cleared up, scalp itch disappeared. Then after 5-6 days Anxiety has crept back.


This is probably because your Adrenals are unable to keep up with the added demand placed on them by the extra thyroid hormone you have taken.




Just had dinner with co-workers who I have known for 10 years and the close social setting was uncomfortable for me. WTF. I know these people so well why would i be anxious to be with them. Amazing how this has progressed.


This is known as social anxiety. It is because you started to experience hypoglycemia which caused you to have a fight or flight anxiety response. It is a common issue with hypoglycemia, resulting from lower Adrenal function. Your Adrenal Fatigue needs to be treated ASAP before this starts to develop into a psychological issue. More info at:
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/458320-post2.html



Post TRT, only thing I have taken was Androgel and then Test Cyp for the past 13 months.

TRT will lower your LH production to a degree. LH stimulates your testes to produce T as well as stimulates the production of pregnenolone from cholesterol (Dr. John discovered this). Pregnenolone is the master hormone from which all the Adrenal hormones are made, namely, DHEA, progesterone, cortisol, aldosterone, estrogen. Lower pregnenolone will lead to lower Adrenal hormones. Usually Dr. John has his patients add in HCG which acts like LH, to their TRT. HCG stimulates the testes to produce T thereby preventing atrophy, and also stimulates the production of pregnenolone from cholesterol. It is likely that as a result of solo T-Cyp, your adrenal hormone output was lowered further by the reduction in pregnenolone.

TRT itself helps with blood sugar control thereby helping hypoglycemia, but this will happen only when all the other hormones are also in balance, namely, cortisol, aldosterone, DHEA etc. There is only so much that TRT solo or any other hormone for that matter can do on their own. Together they work synergistically, and have a better effect than any one individually.



Also, I am borderline Hypoglycemic also an indicator for Adrenal issues. Maybe an indicator of other issues as well, I'm not sure.

It would strongly indicate Adrenal Fatigue if supported by the clinical symptoms and saliva cortisol labs.



Good T + Good E2 + low end Free T3 + so so Free T4 + TSH around 4 + High DHEAS + low end on 8AM Cortisol + borderline Hypoglycemia + Anxiety + sh!!tY
Low end Free T3 - may improve with HC supplementation.

sh!!tY – http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/514610-post8.html




Do you believe Preg can solve these 2 big issues (anxiety, libido) all on it's own?

1. Adopt a hypoglycemic diet as described in the links below.
2. Take HC at the times of the day that you have low cortisol as indicated by your saliva cortisol test. Usually this would be in the morning on rising and around noon. Take 5mg in the morning to start and see how it goes. Check the link below for more info.
3. Pregnenolone will definitely help, as Dr. John has mentioned. The pregnenolone cream will give you a slow 24 hour release. I currently take 10mg pregnenolone capsule in the morning on rising, which works fine for me. I also use HCG which also stimulates pregnenolone production, hence my lower pregnenolone dosage. You may need between 10-25mg pregnenolone, since you do not use HCG. You will need to monitor your serum progesterone labs, because pregnenolone converts to progesterone, and ensure that progesterone remains within the normal lab range. Pregnenolone labs are unreliable/inaccurate. Check this link for more info: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/514610-post8.html
4. Aldosterone is also low in people with Adrenal Fatigue. Aldosterone helps the body retain salt. This is why people with Adrenal fatigue have low blood pressure and crave salty foods. Drink iodine free salted water on rising (1/2 teaspoon to a glass of water). Add iodine free salt to taste to any water you drink throughout the day. If the water tastes too salty, it means you have added too much salt, or that your body does not require that much salt.
5. These are the most important things you can do immediately. You can add in the other nutritional treatments as well as described in the links below.

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/491487-post12.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/491491-post14.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/491494-post16.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/491827-post25.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/491861-post29.html

[wondering]

1cc

Thank you for the detailed reply. very nice.

Curious how Isocort can contain a fair amount of cortisol but be OTC. Seems it is a stronger, more dose reliable source than Adrenogen.

Still gonna get a packet of info together and drop off at doctors office on Monday.

thanks again.

[1cc]

Curious how Isocort can contain a fair amount of cortisol but be OTC. Seems it is a stronger, more dose reliable source than Adrenogen.


Don't bother with Isocort. Get regular prescription hydrocortisone. It is better (formally standardized unlike Isocort) and cheaper.



Thank you for the detailed reply.


I hope it helps you get better quickly.

[Dr. John Crisler]

ok... what to make of Adrenal function (or what other conclusions can be drawn) from someone who is on TRT, has good T levels, ok E2 levels, low'ish Thyroid and upper range DHEA and lower range 8AM Cortisol.

Can the T supplementation elevate the DHEA and mask poor Adrenal function... I have initiated Armour and supplements for Adrenals NOT HC, as the good DHEA levels seem to contadict the low Cortisol levels. Not convinced I dont need HC, but curious about the seemingly opposing DHEA and Cortisol.

thank you.

If you have the symptoms of Adrenal Fatifue, you will need HC to give your adrenal glands a rest. Having a high DHEA doesn't somehow make cortisol less necessary.

[pmgamer18]

More info on AI.
http://ctm.stanford.edu/06-07/Adrenal_Insufficiency_Martin_9_18_06.pdf

[MattMuscle]

Good reply 1cc

[Wise Guy]

So, you're not willing to follow the sheep in today's current Anti-Aging Medicine atmosphere, eh? Well done!

This notion that you must first take six months (or more) to tune up the adrneals and thyroid before considering androgen state is, IMPO, missing the boat. Fundamentally, there is no way doing so will take a man from 250ng/dL to 650ng/dL Total T. Perhaps 10% is what you will get.

10% makes perfect sense, because I remember reading that the adrenal glands make 10% of our androgenic hormones.

So get them tuned up, your only gonna get your 10% back

Sounds like not enough :o

[wondering]

WOW

recap 1/4 grain Armour for 1 week.. then 1/2 grain the last week... lats couple days awful

Just had a 45 minute stretch of anxiety, feelinsg of desperation, restlessness (couldnt sit still... pacing) actually felt liek crying, nausea (this was a first)

I must need HC.. dont wish that 45 minutes on anyone. calmign down a bit. wow.


Don't bother with Isocort. Get regular prescription hydrocortisone. It is better (formally standardized unlike Isocort) and cheaper.



I hope it helps you get better quickly.

[chipdouglas]

WOW

recap 1/4 grain Armour for 1 week.. then 1/2 grain the last week... lats couple days awful

Just had a 45 minute stretch of anxiety, feelinsg of desperation, restlessness (couldnt sit still... pacing) actually felt liek crying, nausea (this was a first)

I must need HC.. dont wish that 45 minutes on anyone. calmign down a bit. wow.

I empathzse with your situation--trust me, I know what very severe anxiety is big time, and I too wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I bet you've been labeled GAD (generalized anxiety disorder) by your pcp--would you by any chance received an ADHD diagnosis too ? I have ADHD BIG TIME ever since childhood so far as I'm concerned.

I'm now on occasional Klonopin until i see my pcp January 7th. Anxiety is a total nightmare...

Hang in there dude, we'll all pull out of that bad situation.......we have to !

This place is a great place for such help.

1CC: I take this occasion to thank you for the above posts and links.....very good stuff.

[wondering]

I hope you;re right.

PCP didnt diagnose me as anything. Nice guy and wanted to help.. but really didnt understand. My chief complaint to him was alwasy libido. Anxiety has increased in the last year and I have my own theories on why that are medical not life issues. But I will hold off on speculation.

That said.. to my own detriment I have alwsy tended ot hold off on sharing "mental" issues until recently. Partly out of lack of recognizing it, partly out of pride perhaps, partly out of I wanted a sex life and didnt want a label of head case mean i dotn get treatment. Once i did mention and the depression drug script came out.

I have newfound empathy for all who suffer emotional issues. Society tends to label as lazy or nut jobs. Seems easy to label anythign we dont understand. More I understand, more everythign seems driven by some physical element. Whether by straight physical issue resulting in chemical imbalance or emotional issue driving chemical imbalance.

im going to bed.

take care.


I empathzse with your situation--trust me, I know what very severe anxiety is big time, and I too wouldn't wish that on anyone.

I bet you've been labeled GAD (generalized anxiety disorder) by your pcp--would you by any chance received an ADHD diagnosis too ? I have ADHD BIG TIME ever since childhood so far as I'm concerned.

I'm now on occasional Klonopin until i see my pcp January 7th. Anxiety is a total nightmare...

Hang in there dude, we'll all pull out of that bad situation.......we have to !

This place is a great place for such help.

1CC: I take this occasion to thank you for the above posts and links.....very good stuff.

[T800]

Taking Armour Thyroid is almost a perfect test of your adrenal capacity.

Sonny

[chipdouglas]

I hope you;re right.

PCP didnt diagnose me as anything. Nice guy and wanted to help.. but really didnt understand. My chief complaint to him was alwasy libido. Anxiety has increased in the last year and I have my own theories on why that are medical not life issues. But I will hold off on speculation.

That said.. to my own detriment I have alwsy tended ot hold off on sharing "mental" issues until recently. Partly out of lack of recognizing it, partly out of pride perhaps, partly out of I wanted a sex life and didnt want a label of head case mean i dotn get treatment. Once i did mention and the depression drug script came out.

I have newfound empathy for all who suffer emotional issues. Society tends to label as lazy or nut jobs. Seems easy to label anythign we dont understand. More I understand, more everythign seems driven by some physical element. Whether by straight physical issue resulting in chemical imbalance or emotional issue driving chemical imbalance.

im going to bed.

take care.


When I went to Dr. Eric Braverman two years ago, low to non-existent sex drive was my primary concern, however he looked at me doubtfully when I said I was spanking the monkey everyday--I made clear to tell him that it didn't feel half as good as it used to, and that my sex drive was only the shadown of what it used to be. He then said that my most important concern should first be Dysthymia and ADHD--ADHD I MOST definately have have since childhood--I can tell you this : at age 35 I can no longer bear living with ADHD.....it's totally crippling of my potential.

You're right that first thing Dr. will do if you walk in saying you got low libido is target anxiety and/or depression thus theyre quick to make out a script for SSRI's or benzos. In some cases it's justified, but I simply think they go for the fastest not thoroughly investigated way to address symptomology--often times it doesn't really help ; I'm thinking SSRI's here whose effects most of the time makes libido issues way worse with the exception of Wellbutrin, and even there, too much Wellbutrin and libido goes down, but my point is that this last is often used to counteract libido smashing effects of Paxil, Celexa and the likes.

I was tested for thyroid, pheochromocytomas, neuroblastomas etc....but I'm not sure they know what to do with test results.

I keep hearing TSH of 2.0 is suspicious of hypothyroid, and mine is test after test consistently 2.00 and over.

[JanSz]

When I went to Dr. Eric Braverman two years ago, low to non-existent sex drive was my primary concern, however he looked at me doubtfully when I said I was spanking the monkey everyday--I made clear to tell him that it didn't feel half as good as it used to, and that my sex drive was only the shadown of what it used to be. He then said that my most important concern should first be Dysthymia and ADHD--ADHD I MOST definately have have since childhood--I can tell you this : at age 35 I can no longer bear living with ADHD.....it's totally crippling of my potential.

You're right that first thing Dr. will do if you walk in saying you got low libido is target anxiety and/or depression thus theyre quick to make out a script for SSRI's or benzos. In some cases it's justified, but I simply think they go for the fastest not thoroughly investigated way to address symptomology--often times it doesn't really help ; I'm thinking SSRI's here whose effects most of the time makes libido issues way worse with the exception of Wellbutrin, and even there, too much Wellbutrin and libido goes down, but my point is that this last is often used to counteract libido smashing effects of Paxil, Celexa and the likes.

I was tested for thyroid, pheochromocytomas, neuroblastomas etc....but I'm not sure they know what to do with test results.

I keep hearing TSH of 2.0 is suspicious of hypothyroid, and mine is test after test consistently 2.00 and over.

There is quite a few people that are functionally Vit B12 deficient.
That is they may blood test in top range (like me)
but still need large doses of B12.
Low, functional B12 = ED and other neurological problems.

May be worth checking.
B12 goes with sufficient amount of Folate.
B12 methyl-cobalamine is better than other versions
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00536.html

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00537.html

Read this article.
http://www.lef.org/LEFCMS/aspx/PrintVersionMagic.aspx?CmsID=31908
apparently B12 defficiency is rampant.

I just got some results of my Genova testing.
Lack of B12 is one of biggies in my results.
After I digest the report, will post results here:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/77385-jansz-metabolic-analysis.html

-----------------------------------
I got plenty of advice from my report.
I am taking about B12 1000mcg/day=1mg/day already, the test asks me to take more:

Vit B9 Folate 1200mcg
Vit B12 Cobalamin 500 mcg
--------------------------------------
Related Keywords
Vitamin B12, Cell Growth, Neuronal Functioning

[wondering]

just returned fom Dr. office... she gave me...

script for Cortef
- 5mg in AM
- 5mg midday
- I'll start here and see where we go.
- not sure if it will be enough, but I'm ok with starting here.

Also recommended hold off on Armour for a bit. Wants to treat one thing at a time. She was a bit surprised reaction to such low dose of Armour - given she didnt suspect I was that Adrenal insufficient. Wants to see me in 2 weeks to talk about how I'm feeling.

Also, handed me bottle of DHA - said humans are deficient in this and does help mood in some. Said to take at least a teaspoon a day... feel free to take 1 teaspoon 2x a day.

I'm gonna stay with her... better, more open than any I've seen so far.

[JanSz]

just returned fom Dr. office... she gave me...

script for Cortef
- 5mg in AM
- 5mg midday
- I'll start here and see where we go.
- not sure if it will be enough, but I'm ok with starting here.

Also recommended hold off on Armour for a bit. Wants to treat one thing at a time. She was a bit surprised reaction to such low dose of Armour - given she didnt suspect I was that Adrenal insufficient. Wants to see me in 2 weeks to talk about how I'm feeling.

Also, handed me bottle of DHA - said humans are deficient in this and does help mood in some. Said to take at least a teaspoon a day... feel free to take 1 teaspoon 2x a day.

I'm gonna stay with her... better, more open than any I've seen so far.

You have got a good doc, a keeper.

I have a story about my DHA to tell you.
For years I am taking recomended dose of EPA/DHA

My Essential and Metabolic Fatty Acid Analysis test at Genova

just told me that I have to

increase the dose of EPA/DHA
add GLA
and B12 & biotin
eat egg yolks and fatty meats

and I eat raw bacon, 75% fat.

[pmgamer18]

This is good news please don't jump on that much Cortef you will have a Thyroid Dump and feel like crap again. Follow this.
=====================================
Day 1-3: 2.5 mg first thing in the AM (2.5 mg total)
Day 4-6: 2.5 mg first thing, 2.5 mg in four hours (5 mg total)
Day 7-9: 2.5 mg first thing; 2.5 mg in four hours; 2.5 mg in four hours (7 1/2 mg total)
Day 10-12: 5 mg first thing; 2.5 mg in four hours; 2.5 mg in four hours (10 mg total)
Day 13-16: 5 mg first thing; 5 mg in four hours; 2.5 mg in four hours; 2.5 mg bedtime (15 mg total)
Day 17-20: 10 mg first thing; 5 mg in four hours; 2.5 mg in four hours; Bedtime 2.5 mg (20 mg total)

It's from this link.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/how-to-treat/
You just had a bad dam bad day so don't end up with a nether one.

just returned fom Dr. office... she gave me...

script for Cortef
- 5mg in AM
- 5mg midday
- I'll start here and see where we go.
- not sure if it will be enough, but I'm ok with starting here.

Also recommended hold off on Armour for a bit. Wants to treat one thing at a time. She was a bit surprised reaction to such low dose of Armour - given she didnt suspect I was that Adrenal insufficient. Wants to see me in 2 weeks to talk about how I'm feeling.

Also, handed me bottle of DHA - said humans are deficient in this and does help mood in some. Said to take at least a teaspoon a day... feel free to take 1 teaspoon 2x a day.

I'm gonna stay with her... better, more open than any I've seen so far.

[1cc]

just returned fom Dr. office... she gave me...

script for Cortef
- 5mg in AM
- 5mg midday
- I'll start here and see where we go.
- not sure if it will be enough, but I'm ok with starting here.

Also recommended hold off on Armour for a bit. Wants to treat one thing at a time.

It's great to see that you are getting started to recovery. You should start to feel better immediately, and improve over time. Start with 5mg Cortef in the morning for a couple days. If you are feeling fine, then add the other 5mg around noon. I have personally never used more than 5mg in the morning. This was sufficient for me. You will need to gauge how you feel. Also bear in mind that if you start to take pregnenolone in future, this will also convert to cortisol. Taking pregnenolone is very beneficial because it will provide a boost to all the adrenal hormones, instead of just one, which will have a better effect.

Please post all your recent labs with lab ranges. Please post all supplements, hormones and medications you are taking, together with dosage and frequency and length of time. Please list all of your symptoms together with length of time, anything in particular that you think may have caused it. Please do the Adrenal Questionnaire located at http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/487806-post191.html , and post the results here. Be sure to copy and paste the whole text together with responses so that it will be easy to read.

1. Do you have low blood pressure?
2. Do you crave salty foods?
3. Do you crave sweet foods?
4. Do you suffer from fatigue?
5. Did the onset of your problems coincide with some very prolonged stressfull event or illness?
6. How is your sleep?

Once you have provided more info, I can give you more input.

[wondering]

Thank you all for your concern, counsel and patience.

Lats few days have been tough - lats night the worst. In anticiaption and hope that my dr would scribe HC (which she did) and in thinking Armour dose was causing my immediate problems, I cut back to 1/4 grain this AM from 1/2.

Tonight I feel better... amazing 1/2 grain could have been too high???.. so will start HC tomorrow AM.. think I'll follow Phils advice on at least Day 1 and see how it goes...

Im tired, so logging off for the night.

[beez721]

This is good news please don't jump on that much Cortef you will have a Thyroid Dump and feel like crap again. Follow this.
=====================================
Day 1-3: 2.5 mg first thing in the AM (2.5 mg total)
Day 4-6: 2.5 mg first thing, 2.5 mg in four hours (5 mg total)
Day 7-9: 2.5 mg first thing; 2.5 mg in four hours; 2.5 mg in four hours (7 1/2 mg total)
Day 10-12: 5 mg first thing; 2.5 mg in four hours; 2.5 mg in four hours (10 mg total)
Day 13-16: 5 mg first thing; 5 mg in four hours; 2.5 mg in four hours; 2.5 mg bedtime (15 mg total)
Day 17-20: 10 mg first thing; 5 mg in four hours; 2.5 mg in four hours; Bedtime 2.5 mg (20 mg total)

It's from this link.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/how-to-treat/
You just had a bad dam bad day so don't end up with a nether one.

gamer,,,whats the usual treatment for high cortisol levels? this is also a form of earlier stage AF right? would HC be prescribed for both high and low cortisol?

[pmgamer18]

Yes as long as you don't have the following.
=====================================
Addison's disease and Cushing's syndrome. Addison's disease is caused by damage or disease to the adrenal glands, resulting in a deficiency of the hormone cortisol. The overproduction of cortisol by the adrenal glands leads to Cushing's syndrome.
=====================================
Doing low dose's of HC Cortef no more then 30 mgs a day best to do 20 this supports your adrenals and they slow down the higher levels of Cortisol. So you don't have a very high level all day. This link shows the stages of this.

http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%201%20.html

Here is a link to a FAQ's on Adrenal Fatigue full of links.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/adrenal-info/faq/

gamer,,,whats the usual treatment for high cortisol levels? this is also a form of earlier stage AF right? would HC be prescribed for both high and low cortisol?

[wondering]

might as well keep this going as a bit of a journal...

- took 2.5mg HC this AM.
- did NOT take any Armour today
- felt a bit more relaxed at work this morning
- so, went ahead and took remaining half of pill (2.5mg HC) at around 12:30
- around 3:30 or so, felt same "episode" coming on as other night.
- around 4:00 left office to visit another office and was about to get on highway when really started to freak.. was worried about being on highway, so pulled over and sat in a Walgreens parking lot for 15 minutes. collected myself and decided to take side roads home.
- amazing feeling of desperation/anxiety/depression.. lasted for who knows.. hour, hour and a half. actually had tears running down my face.. wouldnt wish this on anyone... friggin amazing.

- I guess this was an infamous "thyroid dump". Hope Im done with those. Feel MUCH better right now. WOW.. busy weekend comign up.. hope that was the end of that.

take care.

[T800]

- I guess this was an infamous "thyroid dump". Hope Im done with those. Feel MUCH better right now. WOW.. busy weekend comign up.. hope that was the end of that.

take care.

Wow, man...that sucks. I'd probably stay off Armour for at least a few weeks to give your adrenals a head start. When Dr Mariano initially saw me, I went on HC for a month before starting on Armour Thyroid. Once that was tuned up, we added in Dr John's TRT approach.

Sonny

[wondering]

taken from STTM website quote from Dr. Broda Barnes...

"...The normal gland, can furnish it and do all right. But if the blood pressure is too low in the beginning, the chances are that this patient is going to get worse, about four days after you start them on thyroid, they will become worse than they were.”

This was me exactly.. exactly 4 days after starting Armour without HC, I began to get worse than ever.

[beez721]

might as well keep this going as a bit of a journal...

- took 2.5mg HC this AM.
- did NOT take any Armour today
- felt a bit more relaxed at work this morning
- so, went ahead and took remaining half of pill (2.5mg HC) at around 12:30
- around 3:30 or so, felt same "episode" coming on as other night.
- around 4:00 left office to visit another office and was about to get on highway when really started to freak.. was worried about being on highway, so pulled over and sat in a Walgreens parking lot for 15 minutes. collected myself and decided to take side roads home.
- amazing feeling of desperation/anxiety/depression.. lasted for who knows.. hour, hour and a half. actually had tears running down my face.. wouldnt wish this on anyone... friggin amazing.

- I guess this was an infamous "thyroid dump". Hope Im done with those. Feel MUCH better right now. WOW.. busy weekend comign up.. hope that was the end of that.

take care.

wow,,Im really sorry to hear that. I get the fatigue and depression symptoms but thankfully havent had any of those panic attacks. they must really be difficult to get through. from what I hear it does indeed sound like a thyroid dump

[Joejoebaggins]

here's my two cents:

I think WAY too much is made of 'adrenal fatigue' WHEN low testosterone
is present ...

simple reason: low test does stress the entire body (its why we develop
metabolic syndrome and have heart attacks and strokes) and so our
adrenals do have to work harder to compensate for a lack of testosterone.

however, once you get on TRT the adrenals should, over time, start
to relax and return to a more normal function on their own.

Everyone 'believes' cortisol is the stress hormone ... it is ONLY when
there is insufficient amounts of testosterone to deal with the stress.

Simply put, all stress is 'fight or flight' which releases adrenaline ... this
stimulates the release of glucose and insulin ... but in order to up-take
insulin we need testosterone ... without it, the insulin and sugar just
circulate and our body is stimulated to release cortisol which reacts
with the sugar and insulin to make fat.

However, if there is enough testosterone present, the insulin and sugar
are taken into the cells for energy and we actually thrive on the 'stress' ...

This is why women are having heart attacks in their 30's (in their 20's
when on birth control) because estrogen does NOT protect us from
heart attacks ... that's one of the biggest medical myths on the planet ...

it came out of studies on women at home who had low stress and
lived to be 80 ... it did not study women who had to work every day
and experience the same levels of stress as men:

and now research shows men with low test are the ones having heart
attacks, not men with high testosterone.

But good luck convincing the medical profession to change their minds!

But the bottom line is that you should give TRT time to work before
going into panic mode about your adrenals ... most cases of low test
did not happen over-night and the benefits and changes to health
are not necessarily going to happen over-night either.

Going on HC for adrenal fatigue typically takes up to a year for results,
so going on TRT and getting your levels of test and est stable and then
waiting a year would be prudent.

But that is just my opinion.

Great post. Just what I was looking for!

[Dr. John Crisler]

In the past, Testosterone has worsened my thyroid and adrenal function.

Similarly, treatment of adrenals and thyroid has caused my testosterone to rise. I have not been able to feel good with just one of those therapies alone.

I do think this type of stuff is dose-depedant though. Before I knew anything about thyroid/adrenal stuff, I went on TRT (with Testosterone alone at 400mg/every 3 weeks...hey thanks, doc). The swings in how I felt were horrendous. I did see something that I had not seen before though:

Pre TRT:
Total Test: Always in the mid-high 200's
TSH: Always in the 1.0 to 1.5 range (tested probably 10x)
Free T3: Not tested

TRT Round 1 (2004 -- 400mg every 3 weeks of Test Cyp)
Total Test: 1249 H (241-827)
TSH: 3.36 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: Not tested

TSH is a flawed test, but with so many repeatable TSHs to have it almost triple is noteworthy.

TRT Round 3 (2006 -- 20mg/day of Nolvadex, 3 grains/day Armour)
Total Test: 585 (241-827)
TSH: 0.01 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: 398 (230-420)

TRT Round 4 (2007 -- 100mg/week Test + 500 iu/week HCG + 3 grains/day Armour)
Total Test: 645 (241-827)
TSH: 0.01 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: 333 (230-420)

Why does exogeneous Testosterone lower my thyroid output? The answer (I think and this is what Dr Mariano believes) is that it is because it slows adrenal output (good for some -- I verified this through labs which show drops in cortisol and DHEA) which decreases thyroid efficiency.

This is also why I think Dr John's use of pregnenolone cream is right on.

Sonny

I can just tell you that Dr. Frank Nordt of Rhein Consulting Labs told me he thinks it is just the opposite. I agree with Dr. Nordt.

Think about it. When you give T, GH goes up. And vice versa. When you give thyroid, T goes up (in some hyperexcreters, though, it can go down, as eveidenced by greatly increased metabolites--when you step on the gas, more fuel is burned and more exhaust comes out). Pretty much, when you help one, all others join in the benefit. It's a matrix.

[1cc]

In my experience my higher DHT resulted in higher Free T3.

[T800]

I can just tell you that Dr. Frank Nordt of Rhein Consulting Labs told me he thinks it is just the opposite. I agree with Dr. Nordt.

Think about it. When you give T, GH goes up. And vice versa. When you give thyroid, T goes up (in some hyperexcreters, though, it can go down, as eveidenced by greatly increased metabolites--when you step on the gas, more fuel is burned and more exhaust comes out). Pretty much, when you help one, all others join in the benefit. It's a matrix.

I think you are correct, Dr John. One thing that I did not do during my last foray into Test + HCG was take Pregnenolone cream. Based on the labs, I really needed to and should have. My DHEA, Pregnenolone (I know this is essentially a useless assay in males), and cortisol all significantly dropped. In other words, I think that the worsening of thyroid function was related to uncorrected pathway suppression.

Your addition of Pregnenolone cream as a pathway rebalancer is very important IMO. I know that some guys do not experience a drop in DHEA while on exogeneous Test, but I certainly do.

Sonny

[wondering]

Dr. John - hope you stumble upon this post...

In reading your "James is back" post.. you mention veyr high adrenals and you and the director of Rheinm wondered if this individual had an adrenal tumor.

Interestingly.. I happend to read somewhere (maybe Wikipedia) that having elevated levels of DHEA and Androstenedione can indicate Adrenal tumor.

So in my case.. I have many of the symptoms of Adrenal fatigue.. in July I had a 24hr Urine test and couple of the results were...

July
DHEA 5022 (5 - 1476)
Androstenedione 107 (0 - 50)
Cortisol (F) 153 (35 - 168)

Day after Thanksgiving
8AM Blood Cortisol of 13
Low levels of Thyroid - dont have numbers but low enough for my new dr to thiubnk I was Hypo in presence of symptoms.

Your comment about Adrenal tumor makes me wonder.

What to make of the high numbers in Urine Test?

When we say tumor.. are we talking bad or like a microadenoma like on Pituitary that is relatively harmless.

Thank You and Merry Christmas to everyone.... or Happy Hanukkah..... or whatever you celebrate... Take care of yourselves.

[wondering]

bump to below.. hope Dr. John can comment.

also, I do know that my CHOL is on the low side - both Total and the Good kind (HDL?) Given all my issues - on TRT, Hypothyroid, Adrenal issues - all the more reason to need Preg. or HCG?

once i get adrenals and thyroid settled, i may give Preg. a try - where to find a good one online? or should I not bother to wait?

thanks.


Dr. John - hope you stumble upon this post...

In reading your "James is back" post.. you mention veyr high adrenals and you and the director of Rheinm wondered if this individual had an adrenal tumor.

Interestingly.. I happend to read somewhere (maybe Wikipedia) that having elevated levels of DHEA and Androstenedione can indicate Adrenal tumor.

So in my case.. I have many of the symptoms of Adrenal fatigue.. in July I had a 24hr Urine test and couple of the results were...

July
DHEA 5022 (5 - 1476)
Androstenedione 107 (0 - 50)
Cortisol (F) 153 (35 - 168)

Day after Thanksgiving
8AM Blood Cortisol of 13
Low levels of Thyroid - dont have numbers but low enough for my new dr to thiubnk I was Hypo in presence of symptoms.

Your comment about Adrenal tumor makes me wonder.

What to make of the high numbers in Urine Test?

When we say tumor.. are we talking bad or like a microadenoma like on Pituitary that is relatively harmless.

Thank You and Merry Christmas to everyone.... or Happy Hanukkah..... or whatever you celebrate... Take care of yourselves.

[wondering]

bump... good online source/brand for Preg.?

Merry Christmas.


bump to below.. hope Dr. John can comment.

also, I do know that my CHOL is on the low side - both Total and the Good kind (HDL?) Given all my issues - on TRT, Hypothyroid, Adrenal issues - all the more reason to need Preg. or HCG?

once i get adrenals and thyroid settled, i may give Preg. a try - where to find a good one online? or should I not bother to wait?

thanks.

[wondering]

ok.. havent been on in about a week as have been havinbg rough go of it. Had a few episodes while driving that made me scared tp drive. Christmas Eve wok to such an amazing panic attack that I ended up calling 911 and spent a sleepless night in the ER. No sleep, so spent an anxiety-filled, sleepless Christmas Day in bed at my folks. Got out of bed around 7Pm.. yada.. yada... Been struggling w/ sleep and anxiety/depression since. Have ramped up to 20mg HC. Will take rest of week off of wrok and next week I guess.... hope I can function by week after or I don't know what I will do.

Had the symptoms of Adrenal Fatigue leading up to this and a very small dose fo Armour with only nutritional support sent me down this spiral. So.. off the Armour and only on HC and Testosterone. From sounds of it.. I should stay on the HC for at least a couple weeks prior to trying Armour again.

Anyone deal with this? Anyone take any anxiety/depression meds short term until Adrenals healed and yu could start Armour. This is the worst feelign ever.

I hate the idea of meds for dep./anx., but may need somethign t least to help me sleep which may in turn help anxiety.

Dr. Crisler.. any ideas?... we may know be into a diff. area ?

Is this more a Marianco area? Does he ever consult with physicians remotely?

thanks

[JanSz]

ok.. havent been on in about a week as have been havinbg rough go of it. Had a few episodes while driving that made me scared tp drive. Christmas Eve wok to such an amazing panic attack that I ended up calling 911 and spent a sleepless night in the ER. No sleep, so spent an anxiety-filled, sleepless Christmas Day in bed at my folks. Got out of bed around 7Pm.. yada.. yada... Been struggling w/ sleep and anxiety/depression since. Have ramped up to 20mg HC. Will take rest of week off of wrok and next week I guess.... hope I can function by week after or I don't know what I will do.

Had the symptoms of Adrenal Fatigue leading up to this and a very small dose fo Armour with only nutritional support sent me down this spiral. So.. off the Armour and only on HC and Testosterone. From sounds of it.. I should stay on the HC for at least a couple weeks prior to trying Armour again.

Anyone deal with this? Anyone take any anxiety/depression meds short term until Adrenals healed and yu could start Armour. This is the worst feelign ever.

I hate the idea of meds for dep./anx., but may need somethign t least to help me sleep which may in turn help anxiety.

Dr. Crisler.. any ideas?... we may know be into a diff. area ?

Is this more a Marianco area? Does he ever consult with physicians remotely?

thanks

Sorry to hear your story.

Please refresh on info on your

Cortisol
Aldosterone
Iodine
Sodium
Potasium
FreeT3
Cortef (or other flavors)
Florinef
Iron
Magnesium
minerals, elements tested
vitamins tested


what else should be on this list, Phil help

Have you done any nutritional type of testing?
I prefer starting with NutrEval from Genova diagnostics.

[hardasnails1973]

a guy i helped on other boards cholesterol went from 120 to 210 in one month
Add in cocconut oil, butter, and egg yolks, and magic ingedient oxbile and you will be good to go..People with low cholesterol have detoxicaftion impairments in the liver and can not producr proper amount of bile acids to break down fats hence they have low RBC fatty acids and also cholesterol. You need cholesterol to make bile and you need bile to break down food to get cholesterol.

[pmgamer18]

I have been helping him a long time he is here because I told him about us. He was having a thyroid dump when starting on HC taking to high of a dose. His Dr. has him under control the only thing that helped me was a low dose of Xanx like .25 or even .125 helped take the edge off. He just needs to get up on his HC but slow then give it time to support this adrenals. Then add a little armour in and going up on it slow so it does not stress his adrenals more. I know how he feels been there and my wife has been there. It's not fun.

[wondering]

Phil has been a huge help.

I am amazed i could go downhill so fast and hope the depression subsides even before I start the RAmour. I hope the HC helps on its own as the last week as been truly awful.

I dont discount Dr. J's recom on Preg and HANS comment above as my Total CHOl and good CHOl are both low.

HOW TO GET PREG.??

I do hate to add something at this point... but we shall see.

thanks to all.



I have been helping him a long time he is here because I told him about us. He was having a thyroid dump when starting on HC taking to high of a dose. His Dr. has him under control the only thing that helped me was a low dose of Xanx like .25 or even .125 helped take the edge off. He just needs to get up on his HC but slow then give it time to support this adrenals. Then add a little armour in and going up on it slow so it does not stress his adrenals more. I know how he feels been there and my wife has been there. It's not fun.

[hardasnails1973]

YOU NEED CHOLESTEROL TO MAKE IT !! and low cholesterol can lead to instabilibity of cell mebrane affecting neurotransmitters AKA serotonin, dopamine. Low cholesterol also people tend to exhbit higher levels of anxiety and paranoia

[hardasnails1973]

In my experience my higher DHT resulted in higher Free T3.

Possible greater insulin sensitivity may haev resulted with that.

[wondering]

I want to thank Phil again for beign such a help and listening to my trials. Plenty of back and forth that noone knew about, but definately appreciated

Phil - did the HC alone help at all. My understanding is anxiety is more an adrenal thing and depression is more thyroid.

I am now on 20mg HC for second day. How long should I give it before addign 1/4 grain Armour.. 1 week.. 2 weeks?

Do you put a lot of stock into temp trackign and/or pupil test? I just started trackign temps.

I did teh pupil test and pupils were bouncign around. But I called my sister and had her try and hers were bouncing around too. Now possible her adrenals are fatgigued, but i have her as very healthy/strong, energetic, so I wonder how valid.



I have been helping him a long time he is here because I told him about us. He was having a thyroid dump when starting on HC taking to high of a dose. His Dr. has him under control the only thing that helped me was a low dose of Xanx like .25 or even .125 helped take the edge off. He just needs to get up on his HC but slow then give it time to support this adrenals. Then add a little armour in and going up on it slow so it does not stress his adrenals more. I know how he feels been there and my wife has been there. It's not fun.

[pmgamer18]

Yes doing the temps did help me I was on 20mgs of Cortef for a time like 4 weeks before my avg. temp stayed the same from day to day. Just remember you need to follow whats in this link.
http://www.drrind.com/tempgraph.asp#directions
I have seen it take longer for others it's different for me my Adrenals are good they just don't get the strong enough message of ACTH to make enough Cortisol. In your case it can take longer still most can handle up to 90mgs of Armour. Start when your Dr. says to and go up slow. I would have been on a lower dose by now to get help with the hypo feelings. Also like Hard says it will make your sugar low so try to eat a little lean meat in between meals and before going to bed.

I want to thank Phil again for beign such a help and listening to my trials. Plenty of back and forth that noone knew about, but definately appreciated

Phil - did the HC alone help at all. My understanding is anxiety is more an adrenal thing and depression is more thyroid.

I am now on 20mg HC for second day. How long should I give it before addign 1/4 grain Armour.. 1 week.. 2 weeks?

Do you put a lot of stock into temp trackign and/or pupil test? I just started trackign temps.

I did teh pupil test and pupils were bouncign around. But I called my sister and had her try and hers were bouncing around too. Now possible her adrenals are fatgigued, but i have her as very healthy/strong, energetic, so I wonder how valid.

[wondering]

interestin what you say about "would have been on lower dose of Armour by now".

I called my doc on her day off on her cell (sorry doc) and that's when she gave me go ahead to go up to 20mg HC. She understood my points on Adrenals being worse than she thought, but did mention that a bit of Armour might actually help with anxiety as well. Even mentioned "something stronger" and I asked if she meant Florinef and she said yes.. but understandign is this isnt necessarily stronger just direct way of helping Aldosterone?

I may at some point consider askign her about Medrol as I am now on 5 times a day dosing for my 20mg...
7.5mg first thing
5mg in 4 hours
2.5mg in 3.5 hours
2.5mg in 3.5 hours
2.5mg bedtime

I think.. I'm gonna give it a few days at least in order to track my temps and give adrenals some rest.

I know the answer but please confirm... now that I am on 20mg HC.. even if I dont feel good yet, my adrenals will continually get better at this dose withotu going up as they are getting support and i'm just sitting around my folks house eating mom's cooking.

Where would I be without you people and family I dont know.


Yes doing the temps did help me I was on 20mgs of Cortef for a time like 4 weeks before my avg. temp stayed the same from day to day. Just remember you need to follow whats in this link.
http://www.drrind.com/tempgraph.asp#directions
I have seen it take longer for others it's different for me my Adrenals are good they just don't get the strong enough message of ACTH to make enough Cortisol. In your case it can take longer still most can handle up to 90mgs of Armour. Start when your Dr. says to and go up slow. I would have been on a lower dose by now to get help with the hypo feelings. Also like Hard says it will make your sugar low so try to eat a little lean meat in between meals and before going to bed.

[wondering]

interestin what you say about "would have been on lower dose of Armour by now".

I called my doc on her day off on her cell (sorry doc) and that's when she gave me go ahead to go up to 20mg HC. She understood my points on Adrenals being worse than she thought, but did mention that a bit of Armour might actually help with anxiety as well. Even mentioned "something stronger" and I asked if she meant Florinef and she said yes.. but understandign is this isnt necessarily stronger just direct way of helping Aldosterone?

I may at some point consider askign her about Medrol as I am now on 5 times a day dosing for my 20mg...
7.5mg first thing
5mg in 4 hours
2.5mg in 3.5 hours
2.5mg in 3.5 hours
2.5mg bedtime

I think.. I'm gonna give it a few days at least in order to track my temps and give adrenals some rest.

I know the answer but please confirm... now that I am on 20mg HC.. even if I dont feel good yet, my adrenals will continually get better at this dose withotu going up as they are getting support and i'm just sitting around my folks house eating mom's cooking.

Where would I be without you people and family I dont know.

What do we live for, if it is not to make life less difficult for each other? -- George Eliot

[pmgamer18]

The thing is when you don't feel well it drags on and takes it's toll on you. You need to get lost in a good moive or a good game to get your mind off it. It will take time but now all it can do is get better. Just don't hold this back stressing about it. I know it's hard but tell your self when you stress on it things are going to get better they do for others.

[wondering]

Sorry Phil - but here I go again...

Last 2 days have been pretty good, until this evening about 1 hr after my T shot. Not sure if realted or not. Still too anxious to do anything. I cant drive.. amazing.. dont even leave the house.

So, go back a month or so agao when I was only on T... lookign back def had symptoms of AF and Hypo, but main gripe was libido, but was definitely falling in on myself. didnt go out as much.. looked for comfort of staying home, shakiness, etc. But was manageable.

Fast forward to my trial of 1/4 grain Armour which sent me off inot la la land... panic attack.. visit to ER etc.

Have ramped up to 20mg HC and no more panic attacks (then again havent left house in a week) but have been left w/ depression and anxiety.

Could that Armour dose and subsequent HC dosing and subsequent Thyroid dump.. left me even more Hypo. I know we cant rely on TSH but when I was in ER it tested at 6 and this is highest it has been.

amazing.. taking week off and told boss I will likely be out all next week as well. Great guy so no worries there. Hope Im better the Monday after that to go back.

Maybe I need a little somethign to get me thru a few weeks til Adrenals improve and can start Armour.

Honeslty, so scared to even try Armour with all the anxiety.. if it gets worse.. Im ****ed..

Sorry Phil - happy thoughts.


The thing is when you don't feel well it drags on and takes it's toll on you. You need to get lost in a good moive or a good game to get your mind off it. It will take time but now all it can do is get better. Just don't hold this back stressing about it. I know it's hard but tell your self when you stress on it things are going to get better they do for others.

[hardasnails1973]

to offset anxiety crank up magnesium to 1000 mgs of chelated form to get elemental, Magneisum oxide does not count. Also too your vitamin d levels are probably in the crapper because of mid winter time. Vitamin D is needed for an enzymatic reaction in the adrenals. With out d adrenals do not function properly.

[wondering]

doc already has me on Vit D. Im on...

Test Cyp
HC
Vitamin D
concentrated DHA liquid
GABA + something to help dopamine

All at Doc requests

im so anxious and depressed.. unreal


to offset anxiety crank up magnesium to 1000 mgs of chelated form to get elemental, Magneisum oxide does not count. Also too your vitamin d levels are probably in the crapper because of mid winter time. Vitamin D is needed for an enzymatic reaction in the adrenals. With out d adrenals do not function properly.

[hardasnails1973]

i got the perfect remedy for that. If you are hypothyroid or hypo adrenal they bank on that liver fuinctions will be impaired and need to be balanced properly and depression will go right away in 2 weeks..

[pmgamer18]

Yes this happens to most of us after a thyroid dump this is why I feel you need to jump back on Armour just start at 30mgs then in 2 weeks go up 30mgs more then after this only go up 15mgs. Fish Oil helps with the feelings of depression.

[1cc]

something to help dopamine


What would that be. High dopamine will cause anxiety.

[pmgamer18]

Just remember staying home and not going out will make it all the more harder to go back to work. After going through this your mind can play on you and make you feel panic when the problem is gone. Keep this in mind.

[wondering]

I have an appt next Tues. with doc. Im certain she will want me to take a try at Armour now that I am on 20mg HC. I may try to get moved to Monday.

I think you may be right, but am a bit scared.


Not scientific, but part of me feels that i gte worse after Test Cyp inj. I recall Marianco saying Test can either increase or decrease Thyroid function depending on many other things.



Yes this happens to most of us after a thyroid dump this is why I feel you need to jump back on Armour just start at 30mgs then in 2 weeks go up 30mgs more then after this only go up 15mgs. Fish Oil helps with the feelings of depression.

[wondering]

It's a Amino Acid supplement... GABA + L-Theanine.


What would that be. High dopamine will cause anxiety.

[hardasnails1973]

would that that be zen from allergy nutritrion..

[wondering]

It is Zen, dont knw if allergy nutrition, but sounds like it. You have heard of it?


would that that be zen from allergy nutritrion..

[hardasnails1973]

DUDE I KNOW ALL THE BRAND NAMES AND ALSO WHAT FORUMULA ARE

http://www.organic-pharmacy.com/200mgofZen.htm

[wondering]

Phil - this is where I'm torn.. I understand the need for littel bit of Armour, but also wonder about need to let Adrenals rest and tracking temps.

Just called doc office to see waht she wants me to do.. start on bit of Armour thisweekend or wait til my appt on Tuesday to see her.

My gut is start so we have something to discuss on Tuesday - see how I feel. I expect a call back later today.

Alos- seems the worst part of my day is always between 3 - 7. Think I may move my bedtime dose to add to afternoon dose so go ...

7.5, 5, 5, 2.5 (only 4 doses) instead of
7.5, 5, 2.5, 2.5, 2.5

thanks

Dr. office called back and said ok to start on 1/4 grain Armour. Amazing im on 20mg HC but still bit scares to try it .. worrying if anxiety will get worse when it may get better. Oh well.. maybe Ill start on Sunday as appt is on Tuesday 4PM and hopefully will have some type of reaction in 3 days to talk about with her.
----
When I woke up this morning my girlfriend asked me, "Did you sleep well?" I
said, "No, I made a few mistakes." -- Steven Wright


Yes this happens to most of us after a thyroid dump this is why I feel you need to jump back on Armour just start at 30mgs then in 2 weeks go up 30mgs more then after this only go up 15mgs. Fish Oil helps with the feelings of depression.

[pmgamer18]

For one thing I don't do cortef after dinner it keeps me up. Doing a T shot can make you feel edgy and on top of what you going through this is a hard one to handle. So just try and go with it if you know why it's better.

I would start on Armour tomorrow morning sooner the better. Like I said you dumped all the thyroid hormones out of your blood into your cells so doing a low dose is not a problem even is your adrenals are not supported. It when you get past 1.5 to 2 grains that it happens if adrenals are not supported. All starting on 30 mgs is going to do is mellow you out.


Phil - this is where I'm torn.. I understand the need for littel bit of Armour, but also wonder about need to let Adrenals rest and tracking temps.

Just called doc office to see waht she wants me to do.. start on bit of Armour thisweekend or wait til my appt on Tuesday to see her.

My gut is start so we have something to discuss on Tuesday - see how I feel. I expect a call back later today.

Alos- seems the worst part of my day is always between 3 - 7. Think I may move my bedtime dose to add to afternoon dose so go ...

7.5, 5, 5, 2.5 (only 4 doses) instead of
7.5, 5, 2.5, 2.5, 2.5

thanks

Dr. office called back and said ok to start on 1/4 grain Armour. Amazing im on 20mg HC but still bit scares to try it .. worrying if anxiety will get worse when it may get better. Oh well.. maybe Ill start on Sunday as appt is on Tuesday 4PM and hopefully will have some type of reaction in 3 days to talk about with her.
----
When I woke up this morning my girlfriend asked me, "Did you sleep well?" I
said, "No, I made a few mistakes." -- Steven Wright

[wondering]

I hear what you're saying, but it was a 1/4 grain that sent me off in 1st place. Then again I was not on adrenal support and now 20mg HC. So I guess only way to know is to try. So thats what i will do.

Instead of 1/2 grain every 2 weeks, my doc likes 1/4 grain every week. So I'll start there.

If a word in the dictionary were mispelled, how would we know?
-- Steven Wright


For one thing I don't do cortef after dinner it keeps me up. Doing a T shot can make you feel edgy and on top of what you going through this is a hard one to handle. So just try and go with it if you know why it's better.

I would start on Armour tomorrow morning sooner the better. Like I said you dumped all the thyroid hormones out of your blood into your cells so doing a low dose is not a problem even is your adrenals are not supported. It when you get past 1.5 to 2 grains that it happens if adrenals are not supported. All starting on 30 mgs is going to do is mellow you out.

[pmgamer18]

This is great keep us posted how it goes.

I hear what you're saying, but it was a 1/4 grain that sent me off in 1st place. Then again I was not on adrenal support and now 20mg HC. So I guess only way to know is to try. So thats what i will do.

Instead of 1/2 grain every 2 weeks, my doc likes 1/4 grain every week. So I'll start there.

If a word in the dictionary were mispelled, how would we know?
-- Steven Wright

[wondering]

well today went home for a bit and drove my car for first time in long time.. just went down the street to Walgreens to pickup soem syringes... waitign at the pharmacy counter felt anxiety creepign up..kept creepign up so pulled 2.5mg of HC out and chewed on it... This sucks.. wonder if I am still not on enough HC (im on 20mg/day) or somethign else.

Picked up my Armour and will start w/ 15mg tomorrow.. see Dr. on Tuesday afternoon.. will tell her about my social anxiety and see what she says. At some point.. I need to be able to drive to work and function. Willign to take this week off, but after that I need to get going.

Amazing how goign to the store can cause anxiety.. makes me feel like a nut job. Cant wait for this to get better.


For one thing I don't do cortef after dinner it keeps me up. Doing a T shot can make you feel edgy and on top of what you going through this is a hard one to handle. So just try and go with it if you know why it's better.

I would start on Armour tomorrow morning sooner the better. Like I said you dumped all the thyroid hormones out of your blood into your cells so doing a low dose is not a problem even is your adrenals are not supported. It when you get past 1.5 to 2 grains that it happens if adrenals are not supported. All starting on 30 mgs is going to do is mellow you out.

[Dr. John Crisler]

In the past, Testosterone has worsened my thyroid and adrenal function.
Similarly, treatment of adrenals and thyroid has caused my testosterone to rise. I have not been able to feel good with just one of those therapies alone.

I do think this type of stuff is dose-depedant though. Before I knew anything about thyroid/adrenal stuff, I went on TRT (with Testosterone alone at 400mg/every 3 weeks...hey thanks, doc). The swings in how I felt were horrendous. I did see something that I had not seen before though:

Pre TRT:
Total Test: Always in the mid-high 200's
TSH: Always in the 1.0 to 1.5 range (tested probably 10x)
Free T3: Not tested

TRT Round 1 (2004 -- 400mg every 3 weeks of Test Cyp)
Total Test: 1249 H (241-827)
TSH: 3.36 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: Not tested

TSH is a flawed test, but with so many repeatable TSHs to have it almost triple is noteworthy.

TRT Round 3 (2006 -- 20mg/day of Nolvadex, 3 grains/day Armour)
Total Test: 585 (241-827)
TSH: 0.01 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: 398 (230-420)

TRT Round 4 (2007 -- 100mg/week Test + 500 iu/week HCG + 3 grains/day Armour)
Total Test: 645 (241-827)
TSH: 0.01 (.35 to 5.30)
Free T3: 333 (230-420)

Why does exogeneous Testosterone lower my thyroid output? The answer (I think and this is what Dr Mariano believes) is that it is because it slows adrenal output (good for some -- I verified this through labs which show drops in cortisol and DHEA) which decreases thyroid efficiency.

This is also why I think Dr John's use of pregnenolone cream is right on.

Sonny
The second bolded statement flies in the face of the first. You were on totally innappropriate TRT, whihc would make ANY (with or without concurrent thyroid/adrenal issues) man feel worse.

[Dr. John Crisler]

well i am convinced that Adrenals are my first issue follwed by Thyroid. I have been on TRT for 13 months and feel as bad as I have ever felt. Anxiety is bad, libido sucks. So idea that TRT needs time to work isnt it. At least for me. And no E2 isnt issue either. My test is ideal and E2 right in middle of range.

1st 4 days of takign OTC Adrenal supps and 1/4 grain armour my mind cleared up, energy up, ears cleared up, scalp itch disappeared. Then after 5-6 days Anxiety has crept back.

I post lots of questions I guess lookign for someone to reaffirm my thoughts, but I have just done that myself. I know my body and my new doctor who I happen to like will receive a phone call Monday. I am not waiting 5 weeks for next appt. Just had dinner with co-workers who I have known for 10 years and the close social setting was uncomfortable for me. WTF. I know these people so well why would i be anxious to be with them. Amazing how this has progressed.

Thanks for your time and hope to have good news soon.
- take care of yourselves.

This simply shows T levels were not your real problem. For example, men with low T feel naturally uncomfortable, but you won't see the extreme anxiety you suffer simply from hypogonadism.

What I am saying is that these are all separate issues, albeit with some interconnection. But the idea you must wait six months or a year (waiting to tune up adrenal and/or thyroid) to treat low T is nonsense.

Treating adrenal and/or thyroid cannot take T from 200 to 650. It just does not happen.

[Dr. John Crisler]

http://www.gdx.net/home/assessments/adrenocortex/appguide/index5.html

"DHEA/Cortisol Ratios..

"Low DHEA/cortisol ratios were recorded in patients with surgical stress, patients with depression, and patients suffering from terminal gynecological malignancy treated with cytotoxic chemotherapy (stressors).115,116 Low DHEA/cortisol ratios were also recorded in patients with anorexia nervosa.117 An increase in DHEA-S/cortisol ratios, however, was found in patients suffering from panic disorders."

Last sentence in above paragraph is significant for me. Most resources speak of low DHEA and low or high Cortsol (depending on stage of Adrenal dysfunction) I am one with high DHEA and lowish Cortisol and increasingly symptom described. Pre-TRT I had a DHEAS of 529 (120-520) with a T of 248 (300-1000)

Most recent BW showed low 8AM Cortisol and same high level of DHEAS.

Now more research to see what low dose HC would do to this DHEAS levels.

This is in individuals PRIOR to Adrenal Fatigue.

And stress can elevate DHEA as well.

[Dr. John Crisler]

WOW

recap 1/4 grain Armour for 1 week.. then 1/2 grain the last week... lats couple days awful

Just had a 45 minute stretch of anxiety, feelinsg of desperation, restlessness (couldnt sit still... pacing) actually felt liek crying, nausea (this was a first)

I must need HC.. dont wish that 45 minutes on anyone. calmign down a bit. wow.

Maybe try some ORAL pregnenolone. It is 5-AR'd into the liver into a metabolite that stimulates the GABA receptors in the brain. This can really help with anxiety (when TD pregnenolone cream is not enough). I have seen it actually cause stupor in some.

[1cc]

Maybe try some ORAL pregnenolone. It is 5-AR'd into the liver into a metabolite that stimulates the GABA receptors in the brain. This can really help with anxiety (when TD pregnenolone cream is not enough). I have seen it actually cause stupor in some.

At what dose have you seen it cause a stupor?

[Dr. John Crisler]

YOU NEED CHOLESTEROL TO MAKE IT !! and low cholesterol can lead to instabilibity of cell mebrane affecting neurotransmitters AKA serotonin, dopamine. Low cholesterol also people tend to exhbit higher levels of anxiety and paranoia

And doctors are trying to drive CHOL s low as possible in their diabetic patients. Amazing!

This cause polyneuropathy--exactly what we are afraid of in diabetics.

And also hypogonadism--which lowers glucose transport.

[wondering]

Thanks for your responses Dr. J. I will mention to my Dr. on Tuesday. She is a holistic MD and is open to ideas.

Re: your comment on CHOL.. I sent my dad to her as his dr has him on a T4 med and he hasnt slept his entire life, so he gave him Vicodin. How bout that one?

New dr. put him on Armour and he also brought some of his lab reports and list of meds he's taking.. She said his CHOL is too low and his other Dr. has him on way too much Lipitor. Overall, she thinks he is overmedicated. Much of this helps reinforce my faith in her. She is a bit cautious on AF, but now Im on 20mg HC.

I will mention the Preg. option and am hesitant to go on the Armour given anxiety, but will give a 1/4 grain a shot and see how it goes.

Take Care.


Maybe try some ORAL pregnenolone. It is 5-AR'd into the liver into a metabolite that stimulates the GABA receptors in the brain. This can really help with anxiety (when TD pregnenolone cream is not enough). I have seen it actually cause stupor in some.

[hardasnails1973]

What conversion is oral pregenlolone more likely to take if complimented with Dhea. It would only make sense that it would go to progesterone because the body senses its getting enough dhea. I know transdermal goes more to progesterone then dhea through the skin..

[wondering]

well saw dr this afternoon... she is concerned about anxiety but also doesnt discount that we need to be a bit patient to get Armour ramped up. I told her about my pupil test and how I felpt and she gave me greenlight to go up to 25mg HC, but no higher. Asked me to take the DHA liquid 2x a day and also to take Zen tablets regularly. Also, thinks I should start up again w/ the Adrenogen to help feed the Adrenals.

I started 1/4 grain of Armour yesterday and she said go up 1/4 grain every week to 3/4 grain which is when I will see her again in 2 1/2 weeks.

If I continue with anxiety to give her a call ahead of time.

I mentioned Pregnenolone and she said she has heard of it but hasnt used yet. She seemed intrigued but we held off for later discussion. Maybe I will order and just have in my back pocket.

take care.


well today went home for a bit and drove my car for first time in long time.. just went down the street to Walgreens to pickup soem syringes... waitign at the pharmacy counter felt anxiety creepign up..kept creepign up so pulled 2.5mg of HC out and chewed on it... This sucks.. wonder if I am still not on enough HC (im on 20mg/day) or somethign else.

Picked up my Armour and will start w/ 15mg tomorrow.. see Dr. on Tuesday afternoon.. will tell her about my social anxiety and see what she says. At some point.. I need to be able to drive to work and function. Willign to take this week off, but after that I need to get going.

Amazing how goign to the store can cause anxiety.. makes me feel like a nut job. Cant wait for this to get better.

[wondering]

sorry but recap a bit then some more info...

while back started 1/4 grain of Armour and felt good for 4 days then went downhill fast.. was only on nutritional support for Adrenals and really felt they were shot..so started on HC per STTM and had massive Thyroid dump 1st day. Think I then should have ramped up faster but continued to go slow. Felt bad/weak for few days then had full-fledged panic attack that had me call 911 and spent Christmas Eve in ER. Continued to have periods of great anxiety and ramped up to 20mgs HC. Was on that dose and no Armour for a week. This past Monday began 1/4 of Armour again and yesterday and today have been on 25mg HC.

Today was the best I have felt in long time. Just now at 2:10 AM woke up feeling a panic attack was coming on again. Downed 5mg HC and subsiding enought for me to come on here.

QUESTIONS....

1. Is it possible that even on 25mg HC my Adrenals still cant handle 1/4 grain of Armour?

2. OR is it possible that its the Armour itself I cant handle - meaning I should be one of the ones on T4 (Synthroid ) or T4 + T3 (Cytomel)? Could this be a reaction to Armour?

[GRIMNURUK]

Hey Wondering,
Just wanted to chip in and say "hang in there." I had the same massive anxiety attack issues with adrenal fatigue and Dr. John was able to get me straightened out. I had immediate relief with HC but mine was so bad it took months of careful adjusting to get there completely with the attacks, "chest flutters," etc.. I'm looking forward to this new year with hope that I haven't had in 3-4 years now that my health will be adequate to live the "normal" life that so many take for granted. PMGamer and the other guys here are great too and really know their stuff. I know they'll get you on the road to better health. Heck, your already on it! Sounds like you have a great Doc too. Openmindedness is great and all the more precious for its scarcity it seems.

[pmgamer18]

Your doing much better are you sure it was a panic attack you felt this early in the morning. People with bad Adrenals have low sugar attacks at this time in the morning and it can take some months for this to level off on HC. Try to eat some lean meat before going to bed and keep some on your night stand to help with this. I say this because you took some HC and felt better this made your sugar go up. Still it takes a some time to get your adrenals supported and I can't see for the life of me the Armour doing this at this low dose.

Here read this.
http://www.geocities.com/chrisgj@sbcglobal.net/What_cortisol_thyroid_does.html
And this.
http://www.geocities.com/chrisgj@sbcglobal.net/My_explanation_when_switch_HC_Cortef_to_Medrol.htm l

sorry but recap a bit then some more info...

while back started 1/4 grain of Armour and felt good for 4 days then went downhill fast.. was only on nutritional support for Adrenals and really felt they were shot..so started on HC per STTM and had massive Thyroid dump 1st day. Think I then should have ramped up faster but continued to go slow. Felt bad/weak for few days then had full-fledged panic attack that had me call 911 and spent Christmas Eve in ER. Continued to have periods of great anxiety and ramped up to 20mgs HC. Was on that dose and no Armour for a week. This past Monday began 1/4 of Armour again and yesterday and today have been on 25mg HC.

Today was the best I have felt in long time. Just now at 2:10 AM woke up feeling a panic attack was coming on again. Downed 5mg HC and subsiding enought for me to come on here.

QUESTIONS....

1. Is it possible that even on 25mg HC my Adrenals still cant handle 1/4 grain of Armour?

2. OR is it possible that its the Armour itself I cant handle - meaning I should be one of the ones on T4 (Synthroid ) or T4 + T3 (Cytomel)? Could this be a reaction to Armour?

[wondering]

2nd sticky is consistent w/ Val who think I should be on HC for longer before takign the Armour.


Your doing much better are you sure it was a panic attack you felt this early in the morning. People with bad Adrenals have low sugar attacks at this time in the morning and it can take some months for this to level off on HC. Try to eat some lean meat before going to bed and keep some on your night stand to help with this. I say this because you took some HC and felt better this made your sugar go up. Still it takes a some time to get your adrenals supported and I can't see for the life of me the Armour doing this at this low dose.

Here read this.
http://www.geocities.com/chrisgj@sbcglobal.net/What_cortisol_thyroid_does.html
And this.
http://www.geocities.com/chrisgj@sbcglobal.net/My_explanation_when_switch_HC_Cortef_to_Medrol.htm l

[pmgamer18]

Here is something she said today in are club.
=====================================
>>think the low cortisol masks some of the symptoms of hypo, such as
weight gain and fluid retention. When they begin getting the thyroid out
of the blood and into the cells the hypo surfaces.<<

OK in long hand... LOL When cortisol is low the body is pumping out
adrenalin all the time making it hyper and nervous which masks hypo
symptoms of low pulse and possibly even low temps. As the cortisol
starts getting thyroid to the cells you go through the stages of hypo
that actually you have missed to this point, first only a little thyroid
gets to the cells so you are very hypo with fluid retention and as there
is no adrenaline to make things move faster, the pulse slows and the
fluid builds up and you gain weight, then a little more thyroid gets
through and this starts to ease, but the first stages are where you
would have been in hypo if you had no adrenal fatigue masking it.
Extreme low cortisol causes fluid loss and weight loss, as you correct
that the hypo crap starts to be the most prominent symptoms.

--

[wondering]

Last nigth couldnt fall asleep until after 3AM... not sure... may move my bedtime dose of 2.5mg HC to earlier in the day.. I will try one more time tonight and see how it goes.

Felt good most of the day until about 4:30PM had the same strange feeling that is hard to describe.. part anxiety... part depression.. part uneasiness.. hard to describe. Seems when I do have these periods it is always between 3 and 6/7PM weird. Maybe Cortisol dropping during day.. maybe moving that 2.5 mg earlier would be good for me.

I used to urinate very often.. not always massive amounts sometimes just a bit as if I had prostate issues. But prostate exam eas fine and E2 isnt elevated... so beginning to think its Aldosterone. I will ask mt dr about this when I see her next Wed.

What other types of improvements can one expect if taking Florinef? Can mood be affected as well?

thanks.

[pmgamer18]

The following is from this link. And yes doing cortef after 6pm keeps me up.
http://www.tuberose.com/Adrenal_Glands.html
This is to long so open the link go to the bottom and read down from this.
=====================================
Regulation and Actions of Aldosterone
Adrenal Fatigue and Craving for Salt