Going on TRT, some questions

[legbuh]

Ok, just got my bloodwork back and here's what I'm going to be put on:

Test Cyp - 200mg IM injections once a week (1cc)
HCG - 5mls Subq injection split up thr/fri every week (1/2 cc each day)
anastrozole - 1mg taken mon/thr split
b-12 1/2cc mon-thr subq injection
HGH - 1.5IUS M-F SubQ injections

I was leary about the HGH at first mainly because it's pretty expensive, but my tests showed HGH far below the normal scale, while test was on the low end of the normal scale. So I am giving it all a try for 6 months.

Was told HGH will be taken right before bed and if forgotten, can be taken the next morning.

Not sure when the optimum time for the rest of the stuff is. I figured I'd do the test in the morning after my workout and shower (good or not?) HCG would be the same (since it's not taken on test days). B-12 I will take at the same time as well, morning after workout/shower. anastrozole same time as well. HGH at night before bed.

What about booze and HGH or test/etc? Thursday nights is normally boys night out and we can stay out late, boozin. :) Is that still ok to get home and still take the HGH, or should I take that the next morning?

Any other info? Just point me to the proper FAQ if it's all answered there.. lol. I'm a newbie, and this just seems like a lot of pinning for someone who's never done it.

[agoraphobe]

unfortunately i don't have an answer for you as i'm new too, but would you mind telling us who your doctor is?

[00slotiv]

Ok, just got my bloodwork back and here's what I'm going to be put on:

Test Cyp - 200mg IM injections once a week (1cc)
HCG - 5mls Subq injection split up thr/fri every week (1/2 cc each day)
anastrozole - 1mg taken mon/thr split
b-12 1/2cc mon-thr subq injection
HGH - 1.5IUS M-F SubQ injections

I was leary about the HGH at first mainly because it's pretty expensive, but my tests showed HGH far below the normal scale, while test was on the low end of the normal scale. So I am giving it all a try for 6 months.

Was told HGH will be taken right before bed and if forgotten, can be taken the next morning.

Not sure when the optimum time for the rest of the stuff is. I figured I'd do the test in the morning after my workout and shower (good or not?) HCG would be the same (since it's not taken on test days). B-12 I will take at the same time as well, morning after workout/shower. anastrozole same time as well. HGH at night before bed.

What about booze and HGH or test/etc? Thursday nights is normally boys night out and we can stay out late, boozin. :) Is that still ok to get home and still take the HGH, or should I take that the next morning?

Any other info? Just point me to the proper FAQ if it's all answered there.. lol. I'm a newbie, and this just seems like a lot of pinning for someone who's never done it.

Legbuh,

Why are you going to "give it all a try" for only six months? How has your health deteriorated?

How old are you? Former steroid user?

Are you prepared to have the necessary blood tests run until everything looks good? Do you have insurance for it?

If you give it a six month trial and just stop you may have to deal with problems you may not have at the moment.

I could be wrong but I get the impression you don't respect what TRT is and are going to dabble instead of correct standing health issues that you didn't mention. Booze-hormones, c'mon get real.

Correct me if I am wrong but that's the impression I get.

Heck of a lot of testosterone. I'd hit 2500 ng/dl with that dose. Serves no purpose and is most certainly not a generally prescribed starting dose.

You may not notice any appreciable benefit from only six months of HGH. I am at about 6.5 months and am not sure I see or feel anything just yet but that is the norm. HGH for a scant six months and you probably will be let down. Your dose size is good.

I'm sure someone will show you where Doctor Crisler's protocol information is, I am too lazy to do it now.

Is that 500 iu of HCG twice a week? I used to take that much and think that with the considerable amount of T you mentioned your T levels would be exorbitant and you wouldn't need quite that much HCG to maintain testicular size. Who knows, your E2 (Estradiol, a sore topic here LOL), may be too high resulting in ED symptoms. You'll have to just see what happens but you will need tests.

Bob

[asdf]

Sorry, but that is a mild steroid cycle not TRT. You are headed for more problems at those doses. Also, what doctor would prescribe all those medications and not explain exactly how to use them. Just a warning, you might want to do a little more research.

[Shootist]

I agree that you may be asking for trouble. That's double the usual starting dose of Cyprionate. 500IU of HCG per week is usually plenty. Do it right; read Dr. John's "Recipe for Success". If your script writer isn't going to be careful with your health you better stay on top of it. I doubt he/she would have a problem if you started out a little more conservative. Too much hormones can really F&%$ up your life if you overdo it.

[legbuh]

What I mean by "give it a try" is that if it solves the issues I'm having (what issues you ask? just read down the low T symptoms.. which I've had for years) then I'll keep on it. 6 mos to a year treatment should be more than enough to know if it will "work".

I'm 38 years old, BTW. :) Never done anything more than creatine. Worked out on and off throughout my life, but the last 3 years stuck with it. It's the only time I feel halfway decent (like my head is halfway through the clouds). If TRT gets my head "above the clouds" then that's all I ask for.. to feel "normal"

I may have the dosages wrong.. I've never taken stuff like this so I may be reading the schedule wrong (don't worry, it will be clarified for me). And these are from a sample regiment that was sent to me.

I'm just leary of the HGH simply because, well, the cost. I have the money, but I'm ultra conservative and think that if just Test will help, and I do both, then I won't know which did what. So what doc suggested was test and HGH, then in 6 months do a full blood panel and if HGH is back up, switch to a less expensive drug that helps the body produce HGH. And I'm also a little nervous about all the pinning. :)

I have done a lot of reading and from that I think my test dose is right on for where they want me to be (upper end of normal).

As for the booze, I was just asking.. if it will kill the usefullness by boys night one once a week or so, I won't drink. Or just a couple. I'm not a die hard chicken breast rice vegatable eating clean diet no booze freak and never will be. But I do better than most with diet, exercise, etc..

[00slotiv]

What I mean by "give it a try" is that if it solves the issues I'm having (what issues you ask? just read down the low T symptoms.. which I've had for years) then I'll keep on it. 6 mos to a year treatment should be more than enough to know if it will "work".

I'm 38 years old, BTW. :) Never done anything more than creatine. Worked out on and off throughout my life, but the last 3 years stuck with it. It's the only time I feel halfway decent (like my head is halfway through the clouds). If TRT gets my head "above the clouds" then that's all I ask for.. to feel "normal"

I may have the dosages wrong.. I've never taken stuff like this so I may be reading the schedule wrong (don't worry, it will be clarified for me). And these are from a sample regiment that was sent to me.

I'm just leary of the HGH simply because, well, the cost. I have the money, but I'm ultra conservative and think that if just Test will help, and I do both, then I won't know which did what. So what doc suggested was test and HGH, then in 6 months do a full blood panel and if HGH is back up, switch to a less expensive drug that helps the body produce HGH. And I'm also a little nervous about all the pinning. :)

I have done a lot of reading and from that I think my test dose is right on for where they want me to be (upper end of normal).

As for the booze, I was just asking.. if it will kill the usefullness by boys night one once a week or so, I won't drink. Or just a couple. I'm not a die hard chicken breast rice vegatable eating clean diet no booze freak and never will be. But I do better than most with diet, exercise, etc..

Legbuh, I don't understand exactly how much HCG you are injecting but like you said, you'll get clarification or confirmation. The HCG is usually, if not best, done SQ, as well as the HGH, so those are painless and the T depends on how you do it.

A larger needle like a 21 or 22 G draws the T out and puts it in your thigh nicely although it might cause a little pain, but after awhile its not that big a deal. I like it because the oil is easily released into the body with the larger needle.

Using a smaller needle like 25 G takes longer to inject and may not hurt at all but I had trouble extracting the T when I tried that, so I used a 22 then switched to the 25.

Since you are injecting 1 cc once a week, that is probably what your options are.

HRT should help you with your symptoms, but don't be surprised to have to adjust dosages of this and that while you see how you do, and it can take a long time. I hope your prescriber will work with you as an individual.

I would be at the upper end range for a tryrannasaurus rex at 200 mg per week of T. Wish you wouldn't have to wait that long to see what it is.

Your doctor's strategy for HGH is peculiar. Why wouldn't he treat you with the lesser expensive drug that can stimulate your pituitary right now? You might ask him for the protocol touted here that Wise Guy could tell you about.

Hope all works well. This can take awhile to get right.

Bob

[asdf]

"I have done a lot of reading and from that I think my test dose is right on for where they want me to be (upper end of normal)."

Just so you understand, that dose will probably put you at about 3 times what the average guy on the street is at. With your shot schedule you'll never come low enough to even be in range. I think everyone on here is just trying to help you from making any drastic moves.
half the dose of test cyp and the HCG will keep you at the top of the range for a 20 something male; and if we're wrong you can always up the dosage.
Also, did the doctor figure out what caused you to need TRT?

[legbuh]

Yes, I will be going through more training, etc on everything... this is just the early stages where they got the bloodwork and are fine tuning their dosages for me specifically. They will be monitoring bloodwork periodically and so far in working with them things sound good.

I think Im more concerned about having to needle myself a few times a week more than anything which is causing anxiety. Test will be in the glute (I asked about the thigh, and they didn't really recommend it). HGH will be in the gut with insulin type needles. Haven't gotten far enough in this to know what all else is involved yet.

Basic background on this is I was reading about TRT by chance on another board. It made me ask myself "so, I don't have to feel like I'm old, even though I'm barely 40? I just thought it was part of aging". So, I went to my GP to get bloodwork done. At first he sounded like he understood. Then test came back 320 (range of 250 to 980 IIR) and said "you're fine". Same story I've read over and over. So I was suggested a few clinics (including the one this site is based on) and talked with people using each and tried the one I felt comfortable with and didn't require me to fly halfway around the world. :)

HGH was never tested by my GP, nor was E. This clinic tested it all. HGH was very low (below normal levels), Test was low again (but in "normal" scale), and E was low (which I joked proves soy protein doesn't raise estrogen since I'm lactose intollerant and only use soy protein for my PWO shake, and eggs and cottage cheese from time to time). All forms of whey destroy my gut.. not as bad as milk but bad enough.

The only info I have so far is what I'll be taking (exact dosages will be coming soon) and when I should take it.. Test in the morning once a week, and HGH at night before bed. The others they said could be taken pretty much anytime during the day.

I'm sure I'll learn a lot more as I get into this, right now I'm just going on what I've read online just guessing at how things will work. Like the first time you put in contacts.. it took me 45 minutes.. :) I still remember my wife calling me names.. but once done a couple times, just pop em in.

I just want to feel good.. to want to play with my kids instead of laying on the couch watching. Losing fat would be nice.. gaining muscle another nice side.. but mainly quality of life and well being is what I want...

[JanSz]

Before you start medicating your self, it is a good idea to have thorough blood test.

If you had it done, post it,
analyte name
value
units
ranges
name of laboratory

If you do not have tests, consider running my list.
i do that list about once/year plus smaller sets in between.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

Post #44, between blue lines.

================================================== =====\
Off hand, 200mg/week is too much
frequency of 1x/week is too far apart

including HCG in theraphy is good
wery often (looking at test) it is good idea to use HCG only, at first without testosterone

There is a possibility that you are low on DHT, then when chosing testosterone delivery, one should use transdermal testosterone.

wery often using HGH may mask your other problems.
Use it when you need, but the first intention is to not to use at all, untill another areas were examined and had their turn at adjusting.
Overall health adjustments may help with HGH.
.
================================================== ====
My own Goals
DHEAs(500-640)mcg/dL------------------major player, 95% time overlooked
Progesterone(0.9-1.2)ng/mL
Pregnenolone(> 100ng/dL)
Estradiol, Ultrasensitive(25-29)pg/mL
Estrone, LC/MS/MS (23244X)
do not use Anastrozole if possible or minimize its use
BATest(342, 460-575)ng/dL------------stay around 342 if you need AI to control E2
DHT(60-90)ng/dL
FreeT3~400pg/dL
Body temperature (97.8° - 98.2°F) (36.56° - 36.78°C); (36.6-37C)(97.9-98.6F)

.
.

[ZonaDave]

why does everyone make such a big deal out of someone taking 200mg of T per week?

is 100mg/week too much for some? yes, and what does the doctor do? does he say "oh well, that's the starting dose so you'll have to deal with it"? no, he adjusts the dose accordingly. so what happens if another guy barely gets in the upper range on 200mg/week? most likely the doc keeps him at that dose, which he should. isn't that the point of getting bloodwork done?

it seems that anytime someone on here says they are taking 200mg/week he gets treated like an out of control steroid freak and his doctor is a quack. all this without knowing what his bloodwork results are.

although it's not talked about on here, i bet dr. john has a few clients on 200mg/week!

[Shootist]

Perhaps there's a few cases but Dr. John isn't going to start anyone out at 200mg per week (other than that front-loading initial dose). Every guy is different. Some guys will go off the chart at 100mg/week. Many guys (like me) may fall into the 100-150mg/week range. Why would you want to start with a potential overdose? That's like starting a insomnia patient with 4 sleeping pills each night and if they can't be awakened in the AM telling them to take one less the following night. You work your way up to the proper dose, not down.
There's nothing wrong with taking 200mg/week if it takes that much to get you in a normal, youthful range. Starting out your TRT with 200mg/week is just silly.

[ZonaDave]

i agree that it seems like a very "robust" protocol but maybe his doctor has a reason for it just like good doctors don't follow the standard T dose of:

"For replacement in the hypogonadal male, 50-400mg should be administered every two to four weeks".

if his doctor prescribed 50mg every two weeks guys on here would be all over that.

i agree that starting out low and working your way up makes sense when it comes to hormone replacement but wouldn't that mean that every doctor should start their patients out on 50mg every two weeks and go from there?

and does that also mean that any doctor who starts their patients out on 100mg/week which is 4x the recommended dosage is wreckless?

[chilln]

Ok, just got my bloodwork back and here's what I'm going to be put on:

Test Cyp - 200mg IM injections once a week (1cc)
HCG - 5mls Subq injection split up thr/fri every week (1/2 cc each day)
anastrozole - 1mg taken mon/thr split
b-12 1/2cc mon-thr subq injection
HGH - 1.5IUS M-F SubQ injections

I was leary about the HGH at first mainly because it's pretty expensive, but my tests showed HGH far below the normal scale, while test was on the low end of the normal scale. So I am giving it all a try for 6 months.

Was told HGH will be taken right before bed and if forgotten, can be taken the next morning.



I'm going to throw a little spanner in the works, but I think you can handle the discussion.

I recommend at least trying transdermal T (testosterone) gel / cream, plus HCG (that's human chorionic gonadotropin, not HCG which is human growth hormone)

That's as opposed to injected HCG plus injected T.

If you switch to T gel / cream, then that's one less injection per day (phew) and you can apply as much or as little T gel / cream as you want, and you'll see the results in a few hours.

But the best way to do it is to let HCG do most of your T boost, by increasing your testicular testosterone production, and if your thyroid hormones are in reasonable shape (not yet proven) then you don't really need to inject T.

You can just add a little transdermal T each morning, and maybe even some in the afternoon.

Transdermal-T-plus-HCG is actually Dr Crisler's preferred protocol.

Injected-T-plus-HCG is only Dr Crisler fall-back protocol in case transdermal T is not absorbing well enough to get your serum T levels high enough.

###

If you do try transdermal T gel / cream, and it turns out you are absorbing transdermal T gel / cream poorly, then that's usually a good indicator that your thyroid hormones are out of whack too.

And if your thyroid hormones are out of what then you may find that even the performance of the injected T is not as good as you expect it to be.

Let's work on the assumption that your thyroid hormones are OK, for now. "Innocent until proven guilty" so to speak.

###

And since you're most likely going to need some GH (growth hormone) at night, then I'm definitely going to agree with your medical professional adviser on that score, because that GH will allow you to reduce your dose of HCG-plus-transdermal-T.

That's because GH is a more efficient repair-trigger-hormone than T is. So a little bit of GH will trigger more repairs than a lot of T.

That's why when we take GH, we measure our daily dosages in micrograms (eg: 1.5 IU's per day is around 60 micrograms per day) but when we take T, we measure our daily dosages in milligrams (eg: 25 mg per day)




Not sure when the optimum time for the rest of the stuff is. I figured I'd do the test in the morning after my workout and shower (good or not?) HCG would be the same (since it's not taken on test days). B-12 I will take at the same time as well, morning after workout/shower. anastrozole same time as well. HGH at night before bed.


Sounds OK, but I recommend transdermal T instead of injected T - provided your thyroid hormones are OK.



What about booze and HGH or test/etc? Thursday nights is normally boys night out and we can stay out late, boozin. :) Is that still ok to get home and still take the HGH, or should I take that the next morning?


Try to stick to one schedule no matter what happens.



Any other info? Just point me to the proper FAQ if it's all answered there.. lol. I'm a newbie, and this just seems like a lot of pinning for someone who's never done it.

Discuss with your medical professional adviser to use transdermal T instead of injected T.

HCG is fine

HGH is fine.

You can apply more or less transdermal T as you choose (but you have to match it with a little extra arimidex - not a lot more - because higher levels of T will convert into more E2 unless to match your arimidex levels to suppress the extra E2).

I prefer to crank my HCG (I inject HCG daily), and use just a little transdermal T every morning, and some evenings (especially sex nights).

Some days I just run on HCG and arimidex only. Simple stuff.

[JanSz]

why does everyone make such a big deal out of someone taking 200mg of T per week?

is 100mg/week too much for some? yes, and what does the doctor do? does he say "oh well, that's the starting dose so you'll have to deal with it"? no, he adjusts the dose accordingly. so what happens if another guy barely gets in the upper range on 200mg/week? most likely the doc keeps him at that dose, which he should. isn't that the point of getting bloodwork done?

it seems that anytime someone on here says they are taking 200mg/week he gets treated like an out of control steroid freak and his doctor is a quack. all this without knowing what his bloodwork results are.

although it's not talked about on here, i bet dr. john has a few clients on 200mg/week!


Perhaps there's a few cases but Dr. John isn't going to start anyone out at 200mg per week (other than that front-loading initial dose). Every guy is different. Some guys will go off the chart at 100mg/week. Many guys (like me) may fall into the 100-150mg/week range. Why would you want to start with a potential overdose? That's like starting a insomnia patient with 4 sleeping pills each night and if they can't be awakened in the AM telling them to take one less the following night. You work your way up to the proper dose, not down.
There's nothing wrong with taking 200mg/week if it takes that much to get you in a normal, youthful range. Starting out your TRT with 200mg/week is just silly.

Size of initial testosterone dose bothers me too.
I do not think that one size fits all, I also do not like to start high (or most often, low). I would rather strart just right, or real close to it.

Starting to high or too low wastes time, I suffered too many years, I do not want to add additional year or two for the sake of going slow.

I found my answer in three items that may seem controversial to some or impossible to adhere to, to others.

I would definitely qualify that as a torture when applied to unwilling participant, but it is the fastest route to equilibrium.

Size of starting average weekly dose is a function of one's SHBG level.

Average weekly dose have to be applied frequently, either daily or EOD.

To be able to use frequent injections I use 31Ga needles, 5/16"long.
When I figure a way to use needles used in some insuline pens, 32Ga, even shorter than 5/16", I will use them.

.
.

[legbuh]

Just an update.

Got a call from my clinical advisor to go over my bloodtests. They're starting me out at 1/2 CC instead of 1cc which was on their sample sheet (rest easy boys! lol I won't turn into the hulk).

B12, HGH, HGC, AI, etc is all still the same.

[Teegunn]

Size of initial testosterone dose bothers me too.
I do not think that one size fits all, I also do not like to start high (or most often, low). I would rather strart just right, or real close to it.

Starting to high or too low wastes time, I suffered too many years, I do not want to add additional year or two for the sake of going slow.

I found my answer in three items that may seem controversial to some or impossible to adhere to, to others.

I would definitely qualify that as a torture when applied to unwilling participant, but it is the fastest route to equilibrium.

Size of starting average weekly dose is a function of one's SHBG level.

Average weekly dose have to be applied frequently, either daily or EOD.

To be able to use frequent injections I use 31Ga needles, 5/16"long.
When I figure a way to use needles used in some insuline pens, 32Ga, even shorter than 5/16", I will use them.

.
.

How do you get the oil through such a small needle?? I use a 27 guage and hit my delts, but I need to warm up the oil in hot water (put the vial in a sandwhich bag and immerse in hot water for a few minutes) to get the oil through that size needle. But it's worth it for me as there is barely even a pinch with the 27 guage even compared to the 25 guage I have also used.

[JanSz]

How do you get the oil through such a small needle?? I use a 27 guage and hit my delts, but I need to warm up the oil in hot water (put the vial in a sandwhich bag and immerse in hot water for a few minutes) to get the oil through that size needle. But it's worth it for me as there is barely even a pinch with the 27 guage even compared to the 25 guage I have also used.

No hot water, no nothing special.

If interested, you will have to invest $27.80.
Buy a box of those needles and try it.
Take your time, at first do number of dry runs, during time when you are not in the hurry.

I described what I do about 100x by now, supported with pictures.

Would be a good idea if someone else who uses thise small needles for testosterone oil, would described it for you.

I probably am not convincing enough.

I do this for over 2 years by now, newer any problems (did I mention no pain, and no punctured veins, and not hitting bones or cartilage, nightly boner to boot at 69yo).

My blood results are predictable and steady (including E2).

I think most of E2 problems ( of <2 type) are not errors, they are just facts of life when one is using weekly schedule.

http://www.hocks.com/Merchant5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=A910291
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $27.80

[Teegunn]

No hot water, no nothing special.

If interested, you will have to invest $27.80.
Buy a box of those needles and try it.
Take your time, at first do number of dry runs, during time when you are not in the hurry.

I described what I do about 100x by now, supported with pictures.

Would be a good idea if someone else who uses thise small needles for testosterone oil, would described it for you.

I probably am not convincing enough.

I do this for over 2 years by now, newer any problems (did I mention no pain, and no punctured veins, and not hitting bones or cartilage, nightly boner to boot at 69yo).

My blood results are predictable and steady (including E2).

I think most of E2 problems ( of <2 type) are not errors, they are just facts of life when one is using weekly schedule.

http://www.hocks.com/Merchant5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=A910291
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $27.80


Thanks. I will research your threads to find out just how you are doing this. I currently do a bi-weekly (Monday morning, thursday evening) split for my Test Cyp. The 27 gauge needles I use are not a problem in my delts, which I obviously rotate bi-weekly also. But I will definitely look into your protocol.

[asdf]

why does everyone make such a big deal out of someone taking 200mg of T per week?

is 100mg/week too much for some? yes, and what does the doctor do? does he say "oh well, that's the starting dose so you'll have to deal with it"? no, he adjusts the dose accordingly. so what happens if another guy barely gets in the upper range on 200mg/week? most likely the doc keeps him at that dose, which he should. isn't that the point of getting bloodwork done?

it seems that anytime someone on here says they are taking 200mg/week he gets treated like an out of control steroid freak and his doctor is a quack. all this without knowing what his bloodwork results are.

although it's not talked about on here, i bet dr. john has a few clients on 200mg/week!


2 main reasons why you do not start high:
1. Overmedication - Take the minimum meds possible, always start lower and move higher if need be.
2. Pyschological - I know it's not talked about a lot on here, but there are a lot of psych issues that come into play, especially at higher doses. Just because you feel great at a high dose does not mean that it must be good you. It's very easy to get addicted to feeling good, ask any addict (medical or recreational). You do not want that initial high dose to be the baseline for how they feel.

[chilln]

Just an update.

Got a call from my clinical advisor to go over my bloodtests. They're starting me out at 1/2 CC instead of 1cc which was on their sample sheet (rest easy boys! lol I won't turn into the hulk).

B12, HGH, HGC, AI, etc is all still the same.


Why are you so happy to jump on injected HCG + injected testosterone, when injected HCG + transdermal testosterone would give you far far greater control of your testosterone levels ?