New E2 labs.

[pmgamer18]

Hi just got home from the Dr.'s my Ultrasensitive E2 range < 29 come in at 10 pg/ml going from .5 mgs of arimidex every 3 days to every 4 days.

Now my Dr. told me the lab in CA. told him they had problems with there Machine. and were not getting good results saying <2.

To prove to my Dr. that the problem is fixed they also did the old test at the same time for E2 this came in at 36 range 13 to 54.

I feel fine where my levels are at now.

[hardasnails1973]

But didn't you feel the best at low 20's since shbg was lower, but since the heart operation your body may have changed as well as your weight has dropped effecting you e2 levels.

[pmgamer18]

Yes this is what my Dr. said I have lost 70 lbs and over 10 inchs on my belly.

[medgerton]

Yes this is what my Dr. said I have lost 70 lbs and over 10 inchs on my belly.

That is one hell of a diet.:biggrin:

Great to see you are feeling better.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Yes this is what my Dr. said I have lost 70 lbs and over 10 inchs on my belly.Way to go, Phil!!!

[joe143]

Thats awsome Phil, congrats on the weight loss! Thats a hefty chunk to loose.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Hi just got home from the Dr.'s my Ultrasensitive E2 range < 29 come in at 10 pg/ml going from .5 mgs of arimidex every 3 days to every 4 days.
Now my Dr. told me the lab in CA. told him they had problems with there Machine. and were not getting good results saying <2.

To prove to my Dr. that the problem is fixed they also did the old test at the same time for E2 this came in at 36 range 13 to 54.

I feel fine where my levels are at now.Arimidex should not be dosed at twice its half-life. You don't know what your true E2 is then.

How does adding on an invalid test prove anything about another test?

[hardasnails1973]

If the lab director said it is invalid then what other diagnositic tool does one have to go on? They are always fixing or recalibrating that machine. They need to trash tha machine and go back to the drawing board. Ever since they got that machine its been causing us on TRT nothing but freaken head aches and days of feeling like crap because of their "invalid" results.

[JanSz]

Arimidex should not be dosed at twice its half-life. You don't know what your true E2 is then.

How does adding on an invalid test prove anything about another test?

That other test (test that you call invalid) was done by Quest all by themselves.
I would like to hope that people at Quest know what they are doing when it comes to blood testing.
.
.

[chilln]

So what's so bad about the female-only E2 tests from Quest and Labcorp, et al ?

The female-only E2 tests are designed to be accurate when measuring a normal menstruating female's optimum E2 levels.

A normal menstruating female's optimum E2 levels are between 10 and 50 times greater than a normal healthy males' E2 levels.

We see the effect of this lack-of-sensitivity of the female-only E2 test, when measuring a male's E2, in the following way:


If you want to use the non-sensitive results for tweaking your hormone modulation therapy, then you can use them to a very limited degree, and by using them you'll take a lot longer to stabilize your hormone levels.

The following sample table helps show the accuracy comparison of E2 measurements:



patient=chilln
month=OCTOBER
sensitive E2.........my non-sensitive E2
10........................50
15........................55
20........................50
25........................57 <--- chilln's E2 was optimum on this day
30........................65




patient=chilln
month=NOVEMBER
sensitive E2.........my non-sensitive E2
10........................60
15........................60
20........................66
25........................64 <--- chilln's E2 was optimum on this day
30........................70


From the above 2 tables we learn some critical things:

1) within a month, the non-sensitive results do not consistently increase when sensitive E2 consistently increases

2) from month to month, the same value of sensitive E2 gave 2 different results for non-sensitive E2, which varied by 10 units

3) I need the accuracy of my E2 measurement to be within 5 units to help me determine when my E2 is optimum

####

The absolute numbers will vary with each individual, but the reliability and the accuracy of the three testing technologies will remain the same.

The relationships certainly depend on the individual (in conjunction with their medical professional adviser), managing their hormone levels in a steady state fashion, such that their daily E2 fluctuations aren't huge.

While anyone can mess with their T and E2 levels and never achieve steady state, that is not the objective of hormone modulation therapy. Achieving steady state levels is critical to success of all hormone modulation therapy, and that is the underlying assumption behind the above table.

Note: It is not true that a person's serum E2 levels stay constant, even when their total daily E2 production (which is what is measured via 24hr urinary E2) will be approximately constant.

Note: provided the person doses their horomone modulating substances regularly, at similar times each day, and provided their mental and physical stressors and diet are also reasonably reliable, then the person will reliably measure E2 levels which correspond to their urinary E2 levels.


So which E2 tests will reliably measure a male's E2 levels ?

The sensitive and ultrasensitive serum E2 tests, which give males a reliable metric for our serum E2 levels, are as follows:

a) Labcorp 140244 (uses RIA)

https://www.labcorp.com/datasets/labcorp/html/chapter/mono/sr016000.htm
put 140244 into the test number field at the above page
Ref range for males: 3 - 70 pg/mL

or

b) Mayo Labs #81816 (uses LC-MS/MS)

http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/81816
Reference range for males: 10 - 40 pg/mL

or

c) When Quest don't sabotage their own test: Quest Ultra Sensitive Estradiol 30289X (uses LC-MS/MS)

http://www.questdiagnostics.com/hcp/intguide/EndoMetab/EndoManual.pdf
page 72
Ref range for males: <= 29 pg/mL

Unfortuantely this test is too frequently sabotaged by their own Phlebotomists and testers, and can therefore give either very accurate results when not sabotaged, and unreliable results when sabotaged.

##################

The accurate urinary E2 tests, which give males a reliable metric for our serum E2 levels, are as follows:

1) Rhein Labs "Complete Steriod Hormone Profile"
http://www.rheinlabs.com/hp.html

2) Meridian Valley Labs "ComprehensivePLUS"
http://www.meridianvalleylab.com/steroid_hormone-interpretation.html

3) Genova "Complete Hormones"
http://www.genovadiagnostics.com/index.php?option=com_gpanel&Itemid=2&task=view&nav=doc&id=178

I have not yet found a USA lab which offers a reliable urinary estradiol measurement as an independent test.

###

I have found a lab in Australia (Pathlab) which offers an estradiol-only urinary measurement to international customers - see this post here:

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46275&postcount=13

.

[pmgamer18]

I did not diet to do this when I had all the problems with my heart sugary I was out cold 17 weeks being fed with tubes in my stomach. I am now just able to walk and off pain pills. But losing all that muscle most of my joints hurt about a 3 and a scale of 1 to 10 but when I walk it goes up. I am just now going back in for a stress test and if all is good will be going into heart therapy one hr. 3x's a week for 12 weeks. My lower back and knees hurt the most. I can't stand being on pain pills so between the bad bed sore on my back side and this it's hard.

A lot of guys that had this by pass sugary told me I would feel like a new man. Little did I know I would wake up 17 weeks later.

I have been told the steroids I take TRT gave me soft bones and this is why the wire they used to hold my chest together got infected. Then they tried a steel plate this got infected so after 5 sugarys now it's my Peck muscles that pulled over my chest to how my ribs that I am left with.

So this weight loss was not my doing now I need to keep it off this is hard.

Way to go, Phil!!!

[pmgamer18]

I can't say Quest did the invalid test on there own to prove something. I know we are past the half life but this is what is working other wise I am to low or to high. Doing .25 mgs. every 3 days I am to high. Doing .5 mgs every 3 days I am to low test on this came back at 5 pg/ml range <29. And I could feel I was to low.

There is so much off on my labs but getting better Dr. said it will take a long time for my body to get back to normal and for my blood to rebuild from all that I lost.

Arimidex should not be dosed at twice its half-life. You don't know what your true E2 is then.

How does adding on an invalid test prove anything about another test?

[JanSz]

I can't say Quest did the invalid test on there own to prove something. I know we are past the half life but this is what is working other wise I am to low or to high. Doing .25 mgs. every 3 days I am to high. Doing .5 mgs every 3 days I am to low test on this came back at 5 pg/ml range <29. And I could feel I was to low.

There is so much off on my labs but getting better Dr. said it will take a long time for my body to get back to normal and for my blood to rebuild from all that I lost.

Phil;
think (re-read) about experiment that 00slotiv did on his E2 levels.

His E2 was on a rollercoaster, look at the chart I made, so anybody could see it.

You are on a such rollercoaster, you will newer find proper Arimidex dose if you continue this system.
Change to daily testosterone shots, you will have a very good chance to do two things at once:

#1, have a much better shot at measuring your E2 correctly, (easier to hit a center of steady target, rather than moving target)

#2, eliminate need for Arimidex all together

If your E2 is still too high on daily T shots
#a, reduce HCG
#b, stay in the middle of range (and no higher) in your BAT levels
#c, make honest effort to eliminate Arimidex from your diet.
.
.

[pmgamer18]

I am going to go back on Testim as soon as I get back to normal I never tried it on HCG.

[hardasnails1973]

I am thinking about going back to this route as well because its always e2 issues that are screwing with me as well.

[pmgamer18]

It will be Testim or a compounded cream but it will be some time before I can do the switch.

[matttaylor]

Arimidex should not be dosed at twice its half-life. You don't know what your true E2 is then.

How does adding on an invalid test prove anything about another test?

''Arimidex should not be dosed at twice its half-life''

what is meant by this statement?

.5 every 4 days is normal dosing I thought

[ZonaDave]

''Arimidex should not be dosed at twice its half-life''

what is meant by this statement?

.5 every 4 days is normal dosing I thought

the half-life of a-dex is 50 hrs which is basically 2 days. dosing every 4 days is twice the half-life.

[hardasnails1973]

you be better going .25 EOD it may result in more stable levels.

[JanSz]

the half-life of a-dex is 50 hrs which is basically 2 days. dosing every 4 days is twice the half-life.

I am not really sure what dr John ment in his statement.
I do not know if he want to dose more or less often.
How often does he wants Arimidex to be dosed?

((Originally Posted by Dr. John Crisler
Arimidex should not be dosed at twice its half-life. You don't know what your true E2 is then.))
===========================

When at a time T0 body contains X amount of medicine
and at a time T1 there is X/2 of that amount left,
the t=(T1-T0) is a half life

Medicines are usually dosed at a frequency that is less than half life.

In case of Arimidex, the half life is 50 hours

So if one would just look at that directive, (to dose in less than half life),
we would want to dose Arimidex at least (say) every 48 hours.
=================================================

Arimidex inhibits aromatase.
After Arimidex act on aromatase, certain amount of it (depending on Arimidex dose size) is inactivated, not destroyed but temporaryly inactivated.
(Femara destroys aromatase, Arimidex inactivates it)

It would be good to know the time it takes for aromatase to be active again.

Knowing that time could possibly clarify reasons for frequent Arimidex related frustrations.

.

[ZonaDave]

I am not really sure what dr John ment in his statement.
I do not know if he want to dose more or less often.
How often does he wants Arimidex to be dosed?

(Originally Posted by Dr. John Crisler
Arimidex should not be dosed at twice its half-life. You don't know what your true E2 is then.)

i think his point about the a-dex dosing twice the half-life would be like taking a 100mg shot of T every two weeks since the half-life of T is 5-8 days.

[00slotiv]

you be better going .25 EOD it may result in more stable levels.

Thanks HAN, I might try 0.2 mg EOD rather than 0.1 mg per day. Already doing HCG EOD so I could just take the Anastrozole at the same time. I like it!

Bob

[ZonaDave]

i'm curious if the goal is to maintain the T to E ratio while making sure your E2 stays in the low to mid 20's.

i've heard people say a T:E ratio 40:1 or 50:1 is good but does that mean if when T peaks 24-48 hours afer the shot, should E2 also be at it's peak?

for example, on blood test day if your T is 800 and your E2 is 20, then does that mean if your T level peaks at 1,000 24-48 hours after the shot should your E2 be 25?

[pmgamer18]

Lets talk about half life of a med. Arimidex is said to be 50 hrs. Then it's my understanding the next level it goes down is half of that so it's not all out of your body in 50 hrs. When I do .25mgs EOD I go to low Every 3 days I go to high. At .5 mgs every 4 days I am fine.

you be better going .25 EOD it may result in more stable levels.

[hardasnails1973]

how about every eod plus 12 hours if you are that sensitive to it? You just have to find a happy medium

[JanSz]

Half life formula

Y=A(1/2)^t/h
y= final amount
A=staring amount
T=time
h= half life

Arimidex
h=50hrs
====================================

When on EOD =48hrs chedule
25mg metabolizes into 0.1285mg
before new dose is added
that constitutes variation of 49%
----
When on E3D =72hrs chedule
25mg metabolizes into 0.0.921mg
before new dose is added
that constitutes variation of 63%
=====================================
When on EOD schedule for long time, the peaks of Arimidex settle at 0.5145mg
Time to settle 28 days

When on E3D schedule for long time, the peaks of Arimidex settle at 0.4396mg
Time to settle 36 days

It takes at least a month to settle on new Arimidex dose.
=====================================


EOD | EOD | E3D | E3D
day0 | 0.2500 | day0 | 0.2500
day2 | 0.3785 | day3 | 0.3421
day4 | 0.4446 | day6 | 0.3895
day6 | 0.4785 | day9 | 0.4139
day8 | 0.4960 | day12 | 0.4264
day10 | 0.5050 | day15 | 0.4328
day12 | 0.5096 | day18 | 0.4361
day14 | 0.5120 | day21 | 0.4378
day16 | 0.5132 | day24 | 0.4387
day18 | 0.5138 | day27 | 0.4391
day20 | 0.5141 | day30 | 0.4394
day22 | 0.5143 | day33 | 0.4395
day24 | 0.5144 | day36 | 0.4395
day26 | 0.5144 | day39 | 0.4396
day28 | 0.5144 | day42 | 0.4396
day30 | 0.5145 | day45 | 0.4396
day32 | 0.5145 | day48 | 0.4396
day34 | 0.5145 | day51 | 0.4396
day36 | 0.5145 | day54 | 0.4396
day38 | 0.5145 | day57 | 0.4396
day40 | 0.5145 | day60 | 0.4396

[ZonaDave]

interesting stuff! it's amazing how many guys struggle with getting E2 dialed in. you don't hear about guys having to "fine tune" their T or HCG that often. it seems that it doesn't take much to pass right through your sweet spot.

i bought some Liquidex a few weeks ago to make it easier to adjust the dosage. i know what the symptoms of high E2 are so as an experiment i took .5mg everyday for a week to see if the symptoms of low E2 were any different.

from my experience they were pretty much all the same. the one thing i did notice is my joints would pop a little more than normal but there was no pain.

i stopped taking the liquidex yesterday and i'm going to wait until i get nightly boners back then adjust my dose accordingly, probably around .25mg EOD and see how that goes. maybe a lower dose will work better and wait at least a month to adjust up or down.

[cumkwakka]

i am using dim on sex days and this works pretty good
the one phil recommended

however i can not dose it correctly enough (i.e. half a pill) after my wood is gone

is there a less stronger version which i can take daily which is not as powerful as the one i take?

[ZonaDave]

i am using dim on sex days and this works pretty good
the one phil recommended

however i can not dose it correctly enough (i.e. half a pill) after my wood is gone

is there a less stronger version which i can take daily which is not as powerful as the one i take?

why do you use DIM vs. an AI like Arimidex, Liquidex, etc...

[cumkwakka]

why do you use DIM vs. an AI like Arimidex, Liquidex, etc...

i have e2 of 0.21 on a scale of 0.05-0.21

though i don't have ***** tits and what not, i still sweat and feel the e2 symptoms

dim at least gives me some wood and the doc said i could use this, but im looking for another version.. i like it for good wood on days i have sex and it certainly does SOMEthing not sure what, but if i overdose on it, i.e. every day i get floppycock so am looking for a less stronger dim version

[tommytuna]

If it works. . why not take it EOD or cut it in half?

[JanSz]

interesting stuff! it's amazing how many guys struggle with getting E2 dialed in. you don't hear about guys having to "fine tune" their T or HCG that often. it seems that it doesn't take much to pass right through your sweet spot.

i bought some Liquidex a few weeks ago to make it easier to adjust the dosage. i know what the symptoms of high E2 are so as an experiment i took .5mg everyday for a week to see if the symptoms of low E2 were any different.

from my experience they were pretty much all the same. the one thing i did notice is my joints would pop a little more than normal but there was no pain.

i stopped taking the liquidex yesterday and i'm going to wait until i get nightly boners back then adjust my dose accordingly, probably around .25mg EOD and see how that goes. maybe a lower dose will work better and wait at least a month to adjust up or down.

The best way to deal with Arimidex is to not use it.

I mean to not use any AI at all.

Obviously not everybody can do that, but to have at least a chance,
testosterone have to be dosed very frequently.

With transdermals, sometimes 2x/day

Now, nobody wants to hear about daily T-shots
It is much easier to bit*ch about Arimidex

,.

[ZonaDave]

i have e2 of 0.21 on a scale of 0.05-0.21

though i don't have ***** tits and what not, i still sweat and feel the e2 symptoms

dim at least gives me some wood and the doc said i could use this, but im looking for another version.. i like it for good wood on days i have sex and it certainly does SOMEthing not sure what, but if i overdose on it, i.e. every day i get floppycock so am looking for a less stronger dim version

do they sell a liquid version of it?

[ZonaDave]

The best way to deal with Arimidex is to not use it.

I mean to not use any AI at all.

Obviously not everybody can do that, but to have at least a chance,
testosterone have to be dosed very frequently.

With transdermals, sometimes 2x/day

Now, nobody wants to hear about daily T-shots
It is much easier to bit*ch about Arimidex

,.

i agree, the less of any med you have to take the better off you are.

one thing i don't understand. if transdermals are best for duplicating natural hormone peaks and valleys because of the 24 hour half-life, how the hell can anyone possibly have success with injections when the half-life is 5-8 days?

i'm currently on a 2x/week shot schedule and if i had the time, money and patience i would stop taking the AI and get bloodwork done to compare 1x/week, 2x/week and 3x/week schedules.

so far i think you're the only person on here who is injecting everyday. how are your symptoms? do you have libido/ED issues?

so far, those are the only two i can't seem to shake and i'm pretty sure it has to do with E2.

[JanSz]

i agree, the less of any med you have to take the better off you are.

one thing i don't understand. if transdermals are best for duplicating natural hormone peaks and valleys because of the 24 hour half-life, how the hell can anyone possibly have success with injections when the half-life is 5-8 days?

i'm currently on a 2x/week shot schedule and if i had the time, money and patience i would stop taking the AI and get bloodwork done to compare 1x/week, 2x/week and 3x/week schedules.

so far i think you're the only person on here who is injecting everyday. how are your symptoms? do you have libido/ED issues?

so far, those are the only two i can't seem to shake and i'm pretty sure it has to do with E2.

I am doing shots EOD for over two years.
CrazyCrew is doing EOD
2-3 guys here are writting me PM's about their succesful experience with EOD, do not want to be identified
FriendlyMachine at Meso board did a whole study with blood drawing, he did that on daily shots
KSman (testosteroneNation) does EOD
probably some more
-------------------------------------

Frequent shots actually work.

TRT historically is an evolution from steroid users.
Fast, infrequent, clandestine shots are in historical background.
No time for 2minutes to draw and 30 sec to inject, seems ethernity.
All kind of off the thin air, theories are developed to support need for huge needles.

Hard to breake old habits.
==================================
There is no method, shots or transdermal that comes close to replicating natural testosterone fluctuations, or that any of them have any edge over the other.

Advantage in frequent testosterone delivery, either transdermal or injectable, relays on stable levels of T and E2.
Those levels when stable, can be measured and rely up on for any adjustments.
Look at recent 00slotiv study.
On weekly injections he was getting E2 readings of 5 one day and 44 some other day.

When one gets 5 he have a tendency to remove any Arimidex or increase HCG.
When one gets 44 he is prone to increase his Arimidex dose.
All this (contradictory results) on the same schedule and amount of medications.

================================================== ==
If you have low libido or ED
that is not going to be changed because you will use large or small needle to do your shots.

I would say
get your
BAT, E2, DHT, DHEA, progesterone, pregnenolone, prolactin
into desired range
and hope for the best.

More important,
once you get above list to your satisfaction and are still lacking
look elsewere
leave above list be, do not fiddle with it anymore.

Good luck
.

[ZonaDave]

definately an interesting post. when i was on weekly shots of even 100mg, my T's were a little better than mid range but my E2 was slightly over the upper limit. i had to use 1.5mg of anastrozole to bring it down to the mid 20's.

after switching to 2x/week shots that alone has brought down E2 quite a bit so i know there's some validity to the frequency.

[cumkwakka]

do they sell a liquid version of it?

there is a transdermal dim i believe, liquid to drink im not sure

also not sure if the transdermal is the bioresponse dim which is what i use now

[cumkwakka]

If it works. . why not take it EOD or cut it in half?

the hassle

i just want to take some stuff every day, not too many pills
i hate taking pills and so forth at work and i could get by dosing hc, dhea, and weaker version of dim every morning this way i don't have to remember o shit its thursday let's take dim otherwise i get floppycock

just ease of dosing i would say

like the difference between cialis and viagra, you don't have to remember it everytime

[pmgamer18]

Some times you can up or lower your dose of T shots to get E2 on Arimidex to work better. To big of a T shot is not good like the ones done every 2 or 3 weeks this big dose spikes up E2 big time. One is better off doing a small dose more often. I did good on once a week shots but when I added in HCG wow I was a lot better never felt this good got my libido back and more. But E2 went nuts I was having to take a 1 mg. pill everyday to keep my E2 down and this was like a roller coaster ride it would not stay levels it was all over the place to high to low and good.

It was when I started doing my T shots every 3 days and my HCG the 2 days each in between my T shots. Now I don't have a hard time keeping my E2 leveled good. And I do a lot less arimidex.

To me trying shots every 2 days or everyday the T would stack up on me. The longer I was doing this the higher my levels went up. It's one thing to have to change the dose of arimidex but to have to change the dose of my T shot this is a no no.

One needs to find what works for them selfs we all are not the same and what works for one does not mean it is the best to do and might not work for others.

Some of use are Primary and others Secondary for us Secondary guys HCG will at least for me makes most of my T.

[JanSz]

Some times you can up or lower your dose of T shots to get E2 on Arimidex to work better. To big of a T shot is not good like the ones done every 2 or 3 weeks this big dose spikes up E2 big time. One is better off doing a small dose more often. I did good on once a week shots but when I added in HCG wow I was a lot better never felt this good got my libido back and more. But E2 went nuts I was having to take a 1 mg. pill everyday to keep my E2 down and this was like a roller coaster ride it would not stay levels it was all over the place to high to low and good.

It was when I started doing my T shots every 3 days and my HCG the 2 days each in between my T shots. Now I don't have a hard time keeping my E2 leveled good. And I do a lot less arimidex.

To me trying shots every 2 days or everyday the T would stack up on me. The longer I was doing this the higher my levels went up. It's one thing to have to change the dose of arimidex but to have to change the dose of my T shot this is a no no.

One needs to find what works for them selfs we all are not the same and what works for one does not mean it is the best to do and might not work for others.

Some of use are Primary and others Secondary for us Secondary guys HCG will at least for me makes most of my T.

Phil;
This is I think it is at least second time when you quoting "stackig up" as a reson for not doing EOD testosterone shots. If your blood TT levels went up, you must have increased your average weekly testosterone dose, or average weekly HCG dose.
Or mesurement was incorrect (highly possible on infrequent dose).

If you are using certain average weekly dose of testosterone (or HCG),
if you are not changing that average weekly dose,
there is no stacking up effect when you change from less frequent to more frequent T-injections.

To the contrary, your levels will be smoother on more frequent dose,
or more jagged (stacked up) on less frequent dose.

Average levels (by definition) will be the same by either method.

..............
Your currently poking your self once every day (T & HCG).
That would not change if you would switch to EOD
..............
Recently I changed my EOD method.
I am doing both of my shots, T & HCG at the same time at one day,
the next day I do not do any shots.
My testicless feel better on this method, I do not feel different any other way.
----------
.
.