Ultrasensitive E2 Results are In

[tommytuna]

These is my estradiol lab from a month ago. These were both done by Quest.

Estradiol Test from Quest 69.6 . . Range for men is 20-56

I was using 6 pumps of Androgel and nothing else.

At that time Dr. wanted me to start Arimidex. . .just before doing so I requested the Ultrasensitive Est. Test. . .. that just came back in at <2.

What the heck. Nothing changed. . I did not take ARimidex then but I did start after my last blood draw since I was high.

How is my one level was off the charts high and this one is off the charts low? Do I take the armidex? I am lost.

[hardasnails1973]

To reverify the testing results a rhiens urine test would be the next step if one thinks there is an error in the test.

[tommytuna]

I would like that as well .. but it appears my physician--same one as PMGAMER uses--is not willing to do urine. I will ask today at the appointment again . .. what do I need teh script to say so I can get it done?

Thanks,
Thomas

[hardasnails1973]

Dr needs to use the proper diagnostic codes and it should not be an issue.
jansz i am sure would be glad to give you some examples :thumbup1::thumbup1:

[MarkLA]

You might also re-do the ultrasensitive E2 test in case the <2 was in error.

Do you have estrogen symptoms?

Are you overweight?

Mark

[00slotiv]

I would like that as well .. but it appears my physician--same one as PMGAMER uses--is not willing to do urine. I will ask today at the appointment again . .. what do I need teh script to say so I can get it done?

Thanks,
Thomas

You could have him call Doctor Nordt at Rhein Labs I think it is, and have him ask him about the test.

Just Google Rhein Labs.

If you say that you are concerned about this and want the best available tests I can't fathom anyone not doing it. You'd be the one paying for the test too.

What does he have to lose? What do you have to lose?

Bob

[JanSz]

These is my estradiol lab from a month ago. These were both done by Quest.

Estradiol Test from Quest 69.6 . . Range for men is 20-56

I was using 6 pumps of Androgel and nothing else.

At that time Dr. wanted me to start Arimidex. . .just before doing so I requested the Ultrasensitive Est. Test. . .. that just came back in at <2.

What the heck. Nothing changed. . I did not take ARimidex then but I did start after my last blood draw since I was high.

How is my one level was off the charts high and this one is off the charts low? Do I take the armidex? I am lost.

I am surprised 2x, you are "lucky"

1.-(Daily application of) Androgel usually does not raise E2
2.-your ultrasensitive test came back wrong

6pumps of Androgel=6.1.25=7.5grams is not a big dose.
Most/many need 10grams/day

I suggest that you ask for a money back on your ultrasensitive, or rather that they give you another test for free.

Personally I would not use urine test at this time.
It is not a test that would help you in adjustig any Arimidex dosing.

If you end up in need of Arimidex, it is going to take relatively large number of tests to figure out correct dose.
You do not want to spend out of pocket $250 everytime you want to figure out where you stand with e2.

If you are not feeling any outright gyno problems,
I suggest that you stay away from using any AI at this time.
Daily Androgel application should give you enough protection against high E2.
Possibly you have to wait until you are better stabilized on your current routine, 2-3 months.

When testing, make sure that you test at the minimum:

TotalTestosterone
SHBG
Albumin
E2, ultrasensitive
DHT
DHEAs

At Quest Diagnostics above would be covered by these tests:

42 DHEA sulfate
48 Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)
50 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS) Code: 14966X
51 Dihydrotestosterone (204X)
==============================================


Watch your DHT, it have a tendecy to shoot up high in some people.
If you get DHT 30-50% over the top range, consider switching to EOD shots.
EOD schedule is important, specially when high E2 is of concern.
=======================

The Quest's saga with bad E2 tests is getting old.
If Quest does not shape up, we may have to start thinking about switching to LabCorp.

Just not sure if LabCorp is any better, we do not know enough about problems with labCorp.
================================================== ==

You may want to post all tests that you have, so we may have more complete picture.

.
.

[tommytuna]

Thanks for all the replies.

Mark:

I am overweight .. .am 250 and 6 foot. What does that mean?

Jansz:

I am getting a retest tomorrow. I did have all the other labs done and will post results tomorrow . . I was just pissed about this one. I am increasing to 8 pumps tonight. Also, I have had some joint pain since starting this, but I don't know if that is from the high estradiol or low. Any ideas?

In regards to Quest. . .I officially think they suck. I had 20 vials of blood drawn three weeks back for my endo and my antiaging Dr. . . .two of the test were duplicates . .Vitamin D and the Fasting Glucose. Get this .. .one Glucose was 87 and one was 97. . .this is the exact same blood draw. The Vitamin D . .. one was 34 and the other was 44. I called Quest to inquire about these and my low E2 test and after about 30 minutes was told they could only talk to my Dr. about them. . .not me. I asked them who I should talk to about overbilling my insurance since their tests suck . . . again. . .we can only talk to your Dr. they said. What a crock of shit. How can there be such a variance? I will be glad to post the results if anything can be done.

Tommy

[JanSz]

Thanks for all the replies.

Mark:

I am overweight .. .am 250 and 6 foot. What does that mean?

Jansz:

I am getting a retest tomorrow. I did have all the other labs done and will post results tomorrow . . I was just pissed about this one. I am increasing to 8 pumps tonight. Also, I have had some joint pain since starting this, but I don't know if that is from the high estradiol or low. Any ideas?

In regards to Quest. . .I officially think they suck. I had 20 vials of blood drawn three weeks back for my endo and my antiaging Dr. . . .two of the test were duplicates . .Vitamin D and the Fasting Glucose. Get this .. .one Glucose was 87 and one was 97. . .this is the exact same blood draw. The Vitamin D . .. one was 34 and the other was 44. I called Quest to inquire about these and my low E2 test and after about 30 minutes was told they could only talk to my Dr. about them. . .not me. I asked them who I should talk to about overbilling my insurance since their tests suck . . . again. . .we can only talk to your Dr. they said. What a crock of shit. How can there be such a variance? I will be glad to post the results if anything can be done.

Tommy

Before you are commited to Androgel (or any other transdermal),

where are you on DHT?
=============================================

When I was using Androgel, I would put it on first thing in the morning, usually 10 minutes or so after the shower. I would wait to cool down and be really dry before application.

Androgel and a bed do not mix, specially if you sleep with a women.
.

[tommytuna]

DHT was 34 ...range 25-75

[JanSz]

DHT was 34 ...range 25-75

That is good ##, it was while you were on 6pumps, right?

You probably will not be above top of range, even with 8 pumps.

If after 8 pumps you are not on top of range on DHT, consider putting a little bit of gel on your scrotum.

.

[hardasnails1973]

I never saw a testosterone reading from your gels..Where they even absorbing. If they are not absorbing then your <2 could be accurate. I would not be crying over 10 points on a vitamin D test. People are number pushers too much. I know guys on total T with 350 and are freaken huge no steroids. What works for one may not work for the other. I personally think and seeing more of it called genetic set point meaning once a person gets out their genetic comfort zone testosterone just converts to e2 and dht ..i am seeing it more and more.

[chilln]

These is my estradiol lab from a month ago. These were both done by Quest.

Estradiol Test from Quest 69.6 . . Range for men is 20-56

I was using 6 pumps of Androgel and nothing else.

At that time Dr. wanted me to start Arimidex. . .just before doing so I requested the Ultrasensitive Est. Test. . .. that just came back in at <2.

What the heck. Nothing changed. . I did not take ARimidex then but I did start after my last blood draw since I was high.

How is my one level was off the charts high and this one is off the charts low? Do I take the armidex? I am lost.

You could confirm that low E2 result using a low T (testosterone) result.

Or you could confirm that low E2 result against a low urinary E2 result, plus a low serum SHBG result (because urinary E2 is only the free E2 component, not the total E2, and low serum E2 with very little SHBG binding protein results in low free E2 = low urinary E2)

###

You sound as if you're not prepared to give Quest another run at your ultrasensitive E2 results.

No stress, you can switch to either the Labcorp sensitive E2 test, or the Mayo Clinic #81816 - which is also a sensitive E2 test.

###


And lastly, could you please lookup your E2=<2 result, and at the end of the line, what's the two or three letter lab code - hint: is it "EZ" ?

I'll add it to my thread where I'm collating those crazy E2=<2 results, ie:

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37452

[hardasnails1973]

Mayo clinic had to have been sending alot of their work over to quest for re evaluation because there machines where giving in accurate reading for cancer patients. It was scoring them 2-3 times higher then what was really indicated. Remember the purpose of ultrasentive essay was for female breast cancer not males..

[tommytuna]

Here is the rest of my labs.

CBC is fine.
Estradiol Ultrasensitive (LC/MS/MS) Less than 2 .. .Range <29 (VERY LOW)
Reverse T3: 23 (23-32)
Testosterone Total: 433 (250-1100)
Testosterone Free: 113.3 (46-224)
SHBG: 12 (8-48)
Albumin: 4.6 (3.6-5.1)
Pregenolone, LC/MS/MS: <5 (13-208) (VERY LOW)
DHEA Sulfate: 237 (110-370)
Ferritin: 105 (20-345)
Insulin: 17 (17 or Less) (BORDERS ON HIGH)
IGF-1: 154 (106-255)
T4 FREE: 1.1 (.8-1.8)
T3 Free: 357 (230-420)
TSH: .84 (.4-4.5)

Any input/advice is appreciated. Still feel like crap in the afternoons between 3 and 7. Feel wiped out. Also, the reason I was ticked about the lab was the various in the same blood draw. . not between draws. i am not worried about the D result. . .just the fact they were different from the exact same blood sample.

Thanks,
T

[hardasnails1973]

Well you found your cause excessive insulin resistance
Treating with TRT and proper dieting and lifestyles will go along why to your return to good wellness.

[tommytuna]

I suspected insulin resistance for a long time. I try to walk 4 miles per day to get plenty of exercise . . .my diet is not quite as good as it should be though. Is there a link/website that you can direct me to that will help me get over this? i am committed. . . .and in it for the long term. i appreciate any advice as my family and health is very important to me. I am meeting with my antiaging Dr. today and she suggested an "HCG Diet". She says teh HCG will supplement my testosterone and also drop the pounds which may ultimately rectify my underlying issues. Does this sound reasonable?

Also...Pregenolone, LC/MS/MS: <5 (13-208) (VERY LOW) .. . what does this mean .. . do I need to do anything about it?

Thomas

[JanSz]

Here is the rest of my labs.

CBC is fine.
Estradiol Ultrasensitive (LC/MS/MS) Less than 2 .. .Range <29 (VERY LOW)
Reverse T3: 23 (23-32)
Testosterone Total: 433 (250-1100)
Testosterone Free: 113.3 (46-224)
SHBG: 12 (8-48)
Albumin: 4.6 (3.6-5.1)
Pregenolone, LC/MS/MS: <5 (13-208) (VERY LOW)
DHEA Sulfate: 237 (110-370)
Ferritin: 105 (20-345)
Insulin: 17 (17 or Less) (BORDERS ON HIGH)
IGF-1: 154 (106-255)
T4 FREE: 1.1 (.8-1.8)
T3 Free: 357 (230-420)
TSH: .84 (.4-4.5)

Any input/advice is appreciated. Still feel like crap in the afternoons between 3 and 7. Feel wiped out. Also, the reason I was ticked about the lab was the various in the same blood draw. . not between draws. i am not worried about the D result. . .just the fact they were different from the exact same blood sample.

Thanks,
T
Quote:
I was using 6 pumps of Androgel and nothing else.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In previous post you had DHT, now you do not show it.
Where the DHT fits into this picture?


DHT was 34 ...range 25-75
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It looks like you did correct test for e2 (but, most likely, got screwed up results)

Quest have a better testosterone test, better than the one you did.
Next time ask for:
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS) Code: 14966X

Your response to 6pumps=7.5gram Androgel is low (more often than not, thyroid asks for help)
Atm I think that you should use higher dose, 8pumps=10grams Androgel
Your SHBG=12 is on the low end of acceptable, you have low DHT, you need transdermal T.
Your low SHBG and thyroid readings makes me suspect that
you are indeed low on E2
you may also have low TBG (Thyroid Binding Globuline)

If you are indeed low on E2, I suggest double or tripple doses of HCG shots.
But not yet, since there is confussion on your E2
one (incorrect) test shows E2=69.6
the other (correct test) shows E2<2

you have to solve this puzzle before you go any further.

24hr urine test would give you information on your FreeE2 status, at least you would know if you are high or low.
Because in mean time you may have slow or fast or normal speed of metabolizing, that urine test will have limitations when it would come to using any AI.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have wery low DHEAs and pregnenolone.
I suggest that you eat enough DHEA pills until your blood reads DHEAs(500-640)
Do not be surprised if it takes a lots of pills to get you there.
A this time I would not use any transdermal DHEA or any Keto-7-DHEA
also I would not use pregnenolone, you may end up in right place just by getting DHEAs where it is supposed to be.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I suggest good thyroid/adrenals test, try this:

7 • Iodine Panel - (2503)
8 Selenium
9 Copper, serum
10 Zinc
17 • Iron and Iron Binding Capacity (7573X) - (356N)
18 • Iron, Total (571X) - (24984P)
19 • Ferritin (457X) - (22764P)
20 • Transferrin (891X) - (30346P)
21 • Folate, RBC & Hematocrit - (1768N)
22 • Hemoglobin A1c (496X) - (45484P)
23 • Hemoglobin, Plasma (514X) - (7211P)
24 VITAMIN SCREEN
25 VITAMIN B PANEL 2 - (9067)
26 Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy, LC/MS/MS - (17306X)
27 T3, Total (859X)
28 T4, Total (Thyroxine)
29 T3, Free
30 T4,Free
31 T3, Reverse (967X)
32 Ultrasensitive TSH
33 Thyroid Peroxidase and Thyroglobulin Antibodies (7260X)
39 Aldosterone
40 Cortisol Binding Globulin (Transcortin) (37371X)
41 Cortisol AM/PM
42 DHEA sulfate
46 Progesterone, LC/MS/MS - (17183X)
47 Pregnenolone, LC/MS/MS (31493X)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You already have some of those values tested, if you are able, do above tests from one blood draw.
----
----

[JanSz]

I suspected insulin resistance for a long time. I try to walk 4 miles per day to get plenty of exercise . . .my diet is not quite as good as it should be though. Is there a link/website that you can direct me to that will help me get over this? i am committed. . . .and in it for the long term. i appreciate any advice as my family and health is very important to me. I am meeting with my antiaging Dr. today and she suggested an "HCG Diet". She says teh HCG will supplement my testosterone and also drop the pounds which may ultimately rectify my underlying issues. Does this sound reasonable?

Also...Pregenolone, LC/MS/MS: <5 (13-208) (VERY LOW) .. . what does this mean .. . do I need to do anything about it?

Thomas

Quote:
I am overweight .. .am 250 and 6 foot. What does that mean?
================================================== =======

I suggest that you do:

7 point glucose/insulie tolerance test.

0min, blood draw and 75gram glucose
30min
60min
90min
120min
150min
180min
------------------------------------------------------------------
I had this test done twice,
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1777

post#1--first test
post#22--first and second test overlayed
post#24--chilln's diet
post#63--Milos Sarcev diet

.
I am afraid that you may be wasting valuable resources,
and
more important
your good will and mental energy

if you go for HCG diet.
.
.
You have to (easily) fit into size #34 pants.
If you are out of shape that probably mean 170-180#
----------------------
Step #1

forget about

potatos
wheat, rye
sugar
high-fructose
many other high GI

get freindly with

eggs, skinless chicken breasts, fish, lean pork, beef-london-broil, turkey breast,
in the morning put 1.5lbs of variety of above, that is for one day.
use steamer to cook above food.
If you are hungry, green vegetables, spices, as much as required and clean water.

.
.

[chilln]

Mayo clinic had to have been sending alot of their work over to quest for re evaluation because there machines where giving in accurate reading for cancer patients. It was scoring them 2-3 times higher then what was really indicated. Remember the purpose of ultrasentive essay was for female breast cancer not males..

But then they corrected that - or are you saying they no longer accept serum samples from males ?

###

Eg: Quest stuffed up on some Vitamin D scores too, and then they fixed that.

I suggest that Mayo discovered their problem with their sensitive E2 tests, and they fixed it, and now they're back on their feet.

[pmgamer18]

Quest can be a big pain I got a call from my Dr.'s office yesterday saying Quest did not do my Total, Free and Bio test saying not enough blood. I seen the tubes of blood to be sure they were right. I feel the drop them or mess up and put the blame back on the person that took the blood.

I am going to start calling my BCBS and start telling them not to pay for labs that I get that are bad or don't make sense from Quest. They mess up so much and still send a bill.

[chilln]

I suspected insulin resistance for a long time. I try to walk 4 miles per day to get plenty of exercise . . .my diet is not quite as good as it should be though. Is there a link/website that you can direct me to that will help me get over this? i am committed. . . .and in it for the long term. i appreciate any advice as my family and health is very important to me.


Re Diet:

Pack in the apples and nashi pears, and the fibrous veges (green beans, broccoli, carrots) and only lightly steamed so they're still crunchy.

I mean pack these in. If you fill y our belly with these foods, and only a little meat and a littel fats and a little oils and no high glycemic index carbs, then you will lose all that weight and you will never be hungry.

But if you do not fully fill your belly with these foods, then you will not feel full, and then you will eat carbs and fats, and you'll be right back where you started.

Also Cytolean is a good hunger suppressant and it boosts your thyroid / metaboilism to burn fat faster, so you get as much energy burning fat as you would from eating carbs.

Without something like Cytolean, your body will not burn fat as fast is your body would burn carbs, so you will feel like you have low energy.



I am meeting with my antiaging Dr. today and she suggested an "HCG Diet". She says teh HCG will supplement my testosterone and also drop the pounds which may ultimately rectify my underlying issues. Does this sound reasonable?

Also...Pregenolone, LC/MS/MS: <5 (13-208) (VERY LOW) .. . what does this mean .. . do I need to do anything about it?

Thomas

Boosting your T (testosterone) is probably going to be necessary to increase your levels of T and E2 (estradiol), but you must at least understand that boosting your testicular T production using HCG will most likely shut down your natural testosterone production mechanisms.

However since HCG forces your natural T production mechanisms against their will, therefore you only drop a few hormones along the way, ie: GnRH, LH and FSH.

All of us who boost our T via HCG have the same issues, and we live with them because the benefits of the increased T outweigh the loss of the natural hormones GnRH and LH and FSH.

###

Although your pregnenolone and DHEA may be low now, you and your medical professional advsier should check again after you'vebeen on HCG for several weeks/ months, to see if your levels have increased. Boosting T can have that effect.

[tommytuna]

Chilln:

thanks for your reply. You said to "Pack in the apples and nashi pears, and the fibrous veges (green beans, broccoli, carrots) and only lightly steamed so they're still crunchy." Is that basically all I should eat is fruit, veggies, and meat. . . no bread? Is there a particular diet you suggest.

The Dr. only wanted me to do the HCG for 6 weeks at 250IU?/Day. During this time I would eat a low calorie diet. After that, she would stop the HCG. It is her belief this would jumpstart my diet and take off 40+ pounds. I wanted to know if there are any issues with adding the HCG since I am already on Androgel. This would be in addition to the ando and again. . for only 6 weeks.

I have seen a couple people say my DHEA is low. . .it is mid range . .. why is it so bad? Am I missing something? My Dr. also gave me 10mg pregnelone to take daily. .. .is this worth it?

T

[JanSz]

Chilln:

thanks for your reply. You said to "Pack in the apples and nashi pears, and the fibrous veges (green beans, broccoli, carrots) and only lightly steamed so they're still crunchy." Is that basically all I should eat is fruit, veggies, and meat. . . no bread? Is there a particular diet you suggest.

The Dr. only wanted me to do the HCG for 6 weeks at 250IU?/Day. During this time I would eat a low calorie diet. After that, she would stop the HCG. It is her belief this would jumpstart my diet and take off 40+ pounds. I wanted to know if there are any issues with adding the HCG since I am already on Androgel. This would be in addition to the ando and again. . for only 6 weeks.

I have seen a couple people say my DHEA is low. . .it is mid range . .. why is it so bad? Am I missing something? My Dr. also gave me 10mg pregnelone to take daily. .. .is this worth it?

T

80% of people on this board use HCG (constantly), no one reports any special benefits weight vise.

----------------------------------


Pregenolone, LC/MS/MS: <5 (13-208) (VERY LOW)
DHEA Sulfate: 237 (110-370)
Ferritin: 105 (20-345)
Insulin: 17 (17 or Less) (BORDERS ON HIGH)
IGF-1: 154 (106-255)
T4 FREE: 1.1 (.8-1.8)
T3 Free: 357 (230-420)
TSH: .84 (.4-4.5)

Still feel like crap in the afternoons between 3 and 7. Feel wiped out.

You have

low androgens
probably Adrenal Fatigue
low GH
low thyroid
metabolic problems
overweigh 250# and 6'

You will need more tests.
With what we already know

Do 8 pumps of Androgel, preferably 4 + 4
skip all high GI foods

eat only proteins and green vegetables.
do not use raw heat, use only steam when cooking your food

get your DHEAs(500-640)

give your self 3 months for above project then retest.
Do not do any glucose/insuline testing unless you weight is 180# and you fit into size 34# pants.

But in the mean time do Adrenals/Thyroid testing.
You should have additional gains going that route.
Ask for list of tests when you ready.
.
================================================== ====
Do not get entangled into any particular diet theory.

take a 4 gallon pot with a lid.
get foldable steaming screen ($4) to put on the bottom.
When steaming, cut stuff into thin pieces so heat/steam goes easy thru it.
Steam food about 20 minutes from cold (food and water on the bottom of pot).
Water does not touches the food.

get a scale
put on that scale 4 whole eggs and all kind of lean meats until it weights 1-1.5 punds, that is your daily dose of proteins

get some spices

if you missing and hungry, steam green vegetables, no limits, eat until fool
================================================== ===

Remember that your "protein food" contains 20-25% of actual proteins, the rest (majority) is good stuff that is not proteins.

It would be a good idea to make broths from scarps, bones, cartilage.
In summer go to marina and wait for fisherman cutting up their fish.
Fisherman keep fish fillets, you want what they trow out, make broth out of it.
Buy bones, chicken feet and similar, good for broth.
.
.

[MarkLA]

Thanks for all the replies.

Mark:

I am overweight .. .am 250 and 6 foot. What does that mean?


Having excess bodyfat tends to cause more conversion of testosterone into estrogens, possibly explaining high estrogens. If you needed another reason to get into shape, now you have it :biggrin:

I still think you need to re-do the ultrasensitive test first..

Mark

[tommytuna]

I did the retest thsi morning. .they also are rechecking my testosterone levels.

Jansz:

In regards to the adrenals/thyroid. . .I have had most all tests. .. .which ones do you want to see the results for? Also, what tests are there to check the condition of the adrenals? That is the one I am most interested in.

T

[JanSz]

I did the retest thsi morning. .they also are rechecking my testosterone levels.

Jansz:

In regards to the adrenals/thyroid. . .I have had most all tests. .. .which ones do you want to see the results for? Also, what tests are there to check the condition of the adrenals? That is the one I am most interested in.

T

Go back to post #1 on this thread.
Using edit function
add one or two lines on the bottom of that post, do not change current content.
Below the lines post all tests that you have.

Analyte name, value, units, range, name of laboratory, date of test, any medications or events right before test.

Let us know when you are completely done with editing, but not when you are only partially done.
================================================== ==================

For thyroid and adrenals tests use my long list of tests as a guide.
Post #44, between blue lines, here:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-5.html

..............................

[GirlyMan]

The Dr. only wanted me to do the HCG for 6 weeks at 250IU?/Day. During this time I would eat a low calorie diet. After that, she would stop the HCG.

Normally, if my Doctor actually believed in the efficacy of the HCG diet, I would immediately look for a new Doctor. However ...


I wanted to know if there are any issues with adding the HCG since I am already on Androgel. This would be in addition to the ando and again. . for only 6 weeks.

... if she was willing to keep me on the HCG at a lower dose in perpetuam along with my Androgel then I'd fight like a Pitbull to keep her.

[chilln]

You said to "Pack in the apples and nashi pears, and the fibrous veges (green beans, broccoli, carrots) and only lightly steamed so they're still crunchy." Is that basically all I should eat is fruit, veggies, and meat. . . no bread?


No potatoes, rice, pasta, noodles or bread



Is there a particular diet you suggest.



You need to come off your mental addiction to high GI carbs (potatoes/rice/pasta/noodles/bread) and you need stuff like Cytolean to help you do that - but you can't stay on Cytolean for long periods, eg: I recommend one-week on, one week off.

week 1:

meal 1: a little fruit, whey protein powder for brekky, Cytolean, antioxidants/fish oil/etc..

meal 2: a little salad veges with oil, smoked salmon or sliced meat (no bread/biscuits), Cytolean, antioxidants/fish oil/etc..

meal 3: steamed veges (heaps), baked meat or fish (all visible fat removed), antioxidants/fish oil/etc..
never take Cytolean after (say) 1pm, as it's most likely going to keep you awake when you should be sleeping.


week 2 (no Cytolean):

meal 1: tons of apples and nashi pears, whey protein powder for brekky, antioxidants/fish oil/etc..

meal 2: tons of salad veges with a little oil, smoked salmon or sliced meat (no bread/biscuits), antioxidants/fish oil/etc..

meal 3: tons of steamed veges, baked meat or fish (all visible fat removed), antioxidants/fish oil/etc..


repeat week 1, then week 2, then week 1, then week 2, etc... until you've lost enough body fat to cut out the Cytolean. Cytolean was never meant to be consumed for long periods.




The Dr. only wanted me to do the HCG for 6 weeks at 250IU?/Day. During this time I would eat a low calorie diet. After that, she would stop the HCG. It is her belief this would jumpstart my diet and take off 40+ pounds. I wanted to know if there are any issues with adding the HCG since I am already on Androgel. This would be in addition to the ando and again. . for only 6 weeks.


Stay on HCG and androgel for as long as it takes for you to feel you have recovered to optimum health, then make a decision to back off after that.



I have seen a couple people say my DHEA is low. . .it is mid range . .. why is it so bad? Am I missing something? My Dr. also gave me 10mg pregnelone to take daily. .. .is this worth it?


Boosting your T beyond your bodys natural genetic maximum is causing HPTA suppression, which is another way of saying that it causes your testicular testosterone prouction to practically cease. Eventually this shrinks your testicles to be very small.

Since your testicles produce pregnenolone and progesterone and DHEA, therefore your testicular contribution to these hormones is now greatly diminished.

So you will need to either:

a) kick start your testicular testosterone production once more - via HCG (as your medical professional adviser has suggested) - but don't stop at 6 weeks.

and / or

b) supplement with pregnenolone and DHEA (not progesterone)

[tommytuna]

Original Labs (BEFORE TRT)
Free T was 8.3...range is 8.8-27
Total T was 252....range is 245-1836
LH was 1.5 . .. range is 1.5-9.3
FSH was 3.9..range is 1.6-8.0
Prolactin was <1.0. . .range is 2-18
Cortisol, ACTH, IGF, and All Thryoids were good.

February 1 Labs (4 Pumps Androgel, 2 Grains Armour)
Free T was 8.3...range is 8.8-27
Total T was 252....range is 245-1836
LH was 1.5 . .. range is 1.5-9.3
FSH was 3.9..range is 1.6-8.0
Prolactin was <1.0. . .range is 2-18
Cortisol, ACTH, IGF, and All Thryoids were good.

March 19 Labs (6 Pumps Androgel, 2 Grains Armour)
All CBC and other crap is normal.
FSH was 2.58 Range for Men is 1.6-18.1
LH was .88 . . . Range for men is 2-18.0
Estradiol Sensitive 69.6 . . Range for men is 20-56
Testosterone Bioavailable was 172.4 (range is 110-575)
SHBG was 13. . .range 8-48
DHT was 34 ...range 25-75
Albumin was 4.7 ...range 3.6-5.1
FTI was 6.06 range is 6.33-12.4
T Uptake is 1.03 range is .69-1.41
T3 Total is 1.72 ...Range is .58-1.59
T4 Total is 6.24 ....Range is 5-12
TSH was .4893 . . .range is .35-4.94
t4 Free was 1.1 . ..range is .4-4.5
t3 Free was 330 .. .range is 230-420
Reverse t3 was 19 . .. range is 11-32
IGF1 was 213 ...range is 106-22

April 3 Labs (6 Pumps Androgel, 2 Grains Armour)
Estradiol <2 (<29) L—this is when testing was bad.
Estradiol Ultrasensitive (LC/MS/MS) Less than 2 .. .Range <29 (VERY LOW)
Reverse T3: 23 (23-32)
Testosterone Total: 433 (250-1100)
Testosterone Free: 113.3 (46-224)
SHBG: 12 (8-48)
Albumin: 4.6 (3.6-5.1)
Pregenolone, LC/MS/MS: <5 (13-208) (VERY LOW)
DHEA Sulfate: 237 (110-370)
Ferritin: 105 (20-345)
Insulin: 17 (17 or Less) (BORDERS ON HIGH)
IGF-1: 154 (106-255)
T4 FREE: 1.1 (.8-1.8)
T3 Free: 357 (230-420)
TSH: .84 (.4-4.5)
Fibrinogen 456 (175-425) H
Cardio CRP 1.4 (1-3)
Thyroglobulin Antibodies (<20) <20
Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies <10 (<35)
Ferritin 105 (20-345)
IGF-I 184 (106-255)
Magnesium RBC 4.1 (4-6.4)
Zinc, RBC 10.8 (9-14.7)
Copper, RBC .66 (.53-.77)
Vitamin D 25 OH Total 21 (20-100)
Vitaimin D125 68 (20-60) H
C Pnemonia IGG 1:512 (<1:64) H
C Pnoemnia IGA 1:256 ( <1:16) H
C Pnomenia IGM <1:10 (Normal)

April 23 Labs (8 Pumps Androgel .25 Arimidex EOD and 2 Grains Armour)
Estradiol Ultra 14 (<29)
Test Total 1111 (250-1100) HIGH
Test FREE 380.7 (46-224) HIGH
Test Bioavail 782.8 (110-575) HIGH
Albumin 4.5 (3.6-5.1)
SHBG 10 (8-48)
CBC Was all normal except MPV 7 (7.5-11.5) L

I have attached all my labs. . . .I have some concerns about my current levels of T. I have been having anxiety and my Dr. says he thinks my levels are good and I could reduce my Armour a half grain. I am not sure.

I take my T at 10:00 at night and do .25 arimidex EOD. I think I have shot the moon and need to back off a bit. . .any input. My SHBG is only 10. . .it was 12. . .does this mean anything. I assume 14 for Estradiol is good. I think the arimidex popped the cherry and turned the testosterone loose. Anything to be made of the Chlamydeia Pnemonia? What about Fibrinogen? I am bloated a bit, still fatigued in the afternoon . .not as bad though. Your input is always appreciated.

[garcia]

Chlamydia pneumoniae is what destroyed my health. How comes you had it tested? Not many docs know anything about it.

[tommytuna]

She tested for Epstein Barr, CMV, etc. . ..not sure why. They said before I had lyme based on symptoms but I never really was confident that was the correct diagnosis--Also, I never tested positive for it on any blood test. Does this mean anything? How did it destroy your health? I was told a large percentage of the general population has C Pnemonia. . . am I incorrect?

[chilln]

Let's get straight to the new info which could be the root cause:



Anything to be made of the Chlamydeia Pnemonia? What about Fibrinogen? I am bloated a bit, still fatigued in the afternoon . .not as bad though. Your input is always appreciated.


This is where the action is. This can totally cause your issue.

How did your testing go - do you have antibodies ?




Original Labs (BEFORE TRT)

Free T was 8.3...range is 8.8-27
Total T was 252....range is 245-1836
LH was 1.5 . .. range is 1.5-9.3
FSH was 3.9..range is 1.6-8.0
Prolactin was <1.0. . .range is 2-18
Cortisol, ACTH, IGF, and All Thryoids were good.


February 1 Labs (4 Pumps Androgel, 2 Grains Armour)

Free T was 8.3...range is 8.8-27
Total T was 252....range is 245-1836
LH was 1.5 . .. range is 1.5-9.3
FSH was 3.9..range is 1.6-8.0
Prolactin was <1.0. . .range is 2-18
Cortisol, ACTH, IGF, and All Thryoids were good.


March 19 Labs (6 Pumps Androgel, 2 Grains Armour)

All CBC and other crap is normal.
FSH was 2.58 Range for Men is 1.6-18.1
LH was .88 . . . Range for men is 2-18.0
Estradiol Sensitive 69.6 . . Range for men is 20-56
Testosterone Bioavailable was 172.4 (range is 110-575)
SHBG was 13. . .range 8-48
DHT was 34 ...range 25-75
Albumin was 4.7 ...range 3.6-5.1
FTI was 6.06 range is 6.33-12.4
T Uptake is 1.03 range is .69-1.41
T3 Total is 1.72 ...Range is .58-1.59
T4 Total is 6.24 ....Range is 5-12
TSH was .4893 . . .range is .35-4.94
t4 Free was 1.1 . ..range is .4-4.5
t3 Free was 330 .. .range is 230-420
Reverse t3 was 19 . .. range is 11-32
IGF1 was 213 ...range is 106-22


April 3 Labs (6 Pumps Androgel, 2 Grains Armour)

Estradiol <2 (<29) L—this is when testing was bad.
Estradiol Ultrasensitive (LC/MS/MS) Less than 2 .. .Range <29 (VERY LOW)
Reverse T3: 23 (23-32)
Testosterone Total: 433 (250-1100)
Testosterone Free: 113.3 (46-224)
SHBG: 12 (8-48)
Albumin: 4.6 (3.6-5.1)
Pregenolone, LC/MS/MS: <5 (13-208) (VERY LOW)
DHEA Sulfate: 237 (110-370)
Ferritin: 105 (20-345)
Insulin: 17 (17 or Less) (BORDERS ON HIGH)
IGF-1: 154 (106-255)
T4 FREE: 1.1 (.8-1.8)
T3 Free: 357 (230-420)
TSH: .84 (.4-4.5)
Fibrinogen 456 (175-425) H
Cardio CRP 1.4 (1-3)
Thyroglobulin Antibodies (<20) <20
Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies <10 (<35)
Ferritin 105 (20-345)
IGF-I 184 (106-255)
Magnesium RBC 4.1 (4-6.4)
Zinc, RBC 10.8 (9-14.7)
Copper, RBC .66 (.53-.77)
Vitamin D 25 OH Total 21 (20-100)
Vitaimin D125 68 (20-60) H
C Pnemonia IGG 1:512 (<1:64) H
C Pnoemnia IGA 1:256 ( <1:16) H
C Pnomenia IGM <1:10 (Normal)


April 23 Labs (8 Pumps Androgel .25 Arimidex EOD and 2 Grains Armour)

Estradiol Ultra 14 (<29)
Test Total 1111 (250-1100) HIGH
Test FREE 380.7 (46-224) HIGH
Test Bioavail 782.8 (110-575) HIGH
Albumin 4.5 (3.6-5.1)
SHBG 10 (8-48)
CBC Was all normal except MPV 7 (7.5-11.5) L

I have attached all my labs.


Thanks for the great summary. I know it would have taken some time to collate these.




I have some concerns about my current levels of T. I have been having anxiety and my Dr. says he thinks my levels are good and I could reduce my Armour a half grain. I am not sure.


and



I think I have shot the moon and need to back off a bit. . .any input.
My SHBG is only 10. . .it was 12. . .does this mean anything.



Since your SHBG is always low, even when your testosterone levels are quite low, that means your body is trying extra hard to dump T (testosterone) into its metabolites E2 and DHT. That can be Lyme's disease.

Alternatively it means you have a liver problem where you can't make enough SHBG - but that's rare, yet you may want to look into this later.

In any event your body will be converting as much T into both E2 and DHT as it can get away with.

Since you're preventing your body from converting T into E2 (because of your arimidex usage) therefore your body can only converting a lot of your excess T into DHT.

Also, transdermal T generates more DHT than boosting T via HCG, or T injections.

Excess DHT causes a lot of CNS (central nervous stimulation), and your body also requires a lot of cortisol to manage the erroneous signals which result from such excess CNS stimulation. (ie: not all CNS signals are optimum)

###

Backing off the transdermal T is necessary to reduce DHT.

But you should discuss with your medical professional adviser to add in subcutaneous injections of HCG to boost your testicular testosterone production, rather than getting 100% of your testosterone from gel.

Note that to maintain such high levels of testosterone, your testicular testosterone production will be suppressed. The body has several feedback mechanisms to measure several hormones in order maintain testosterone levels at its preferred optimum - ie: low, and this is obviously not our preferred optimum.

Boosting testicular testosterone production results in much less conversion of T into DHT. Conversion of T into DHT will still occur with HCG, but the percentage of T which is converted into DHT will be much less than it was without any T boost from HCG.

Boosting testicular testosterone production via subcutaneous injections of HCG results in additional levels of the hormones pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA, androstenedione, and many other hormones too. It's extremely beneficial.




I take my T at 10:00 at night and do .25 arimidex EOD.


Always take most of your transdermal T first thing in the morning, and only a little around 7pm if you need some to improve your evening sexual function.

That's partly due to the DHT stimulation effects, and partly because T gel has it's most effect in the first 4 hours after application, then it gradually backs off. That way you get the ergogenic effects of the extra T during the day when you are active and need the T to boost your energy.





I assume 14 for Estradiol is good. I think the arimidex popped the cherry and turned the testosterone loose.


usually correct, but how is your sexual performance ? E2 affects that.

[JanSz]

You definitely have a problem, I am just not sure what to make out of it..

Fibrinogen 456 (175-425) H-----> if anybody knows how to push it down, provide references.

T3 Total is 1.72 ...Range is .58-1.59
t3 Free was 330 .. .range is 230-420
Reverse t3 was 19 . .. range is 11-32 (in lower half of range)
something is not right with Thyroid, you are storing lots of T3 but do not have proportionally more of FreeT3. I would keep 2grains as is,TSH: .84 (.4-4.5), TSH is not shut down completely, not yet.
-------------------------------------

Is this all due to C. pneumoniae ?

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=95947
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyhow, when you have finally got decent E2 test
Estradiol Ultra 14 (<29)
Test Total 1111 (250-1100) HIGH
Albumin 4.5 (3.6-5.1)
SHBG 10 (8-48)

You cannot afford
such a high TotalT (will push SHBG down)
such a low E2 (will push SHBG down)
you probably have low TBG

You are reacting to transdermals in erratic way.
4 or six pumps does nothing for you
8 pumps is too much.

Your DHT=34(25-75)(on 6pumps)

That is not much.

Non-typical response.
I would want to recomend T-injections but cannot.

6pumps (after series of 4pumps) did not even shut down your testis.
FSH=2.58
LH=0.88

There are men that produce high amounts of FSH, but before TRT you got
FSH was 3.9
not unusual
==============================================

Bottom line at this point:
Keep 2grains
Keep 6pumps Androgel, put half of it on your scrotum.
Get some HCG
Reduce Arimidex
==============================================

[tommytuna]

Thanks Jansz. . you are a wizard. Thanks for the article. . .these are my results with the normal on in the parenthesis. Are these not the tests for the antibodies. . it is funny . .I am 50% finnish. . .where they did they study.

C Pnemonia IGG 1:512 (<1:64) H
C Pnoemnia IGA 1:256 ( <1:16) H
C Pnomenia IGM <1:10 (Normal)

In regards to the Test values. . is seems to me they did not shoot until I started the Armidex. that was the main change. Could that cause such a drastic increase. Mr. Dr. is hesitant on the HCG thing. Not sure what to do .. .is there anywhere on the board where people post top Dr.'s? that would be great!

In regards to the SHBG .. . and the liver .. . I have gilbert's they tell me as my billirubin is always slightly elevated. . not sure. . this may be the reason for the difference as well. Any thoughts?

I also want to point out. . .the thyroid tests are skewed since one was after taking my mornign dose and the other was without it. As we know, Free T3 is at its lowest point in the morning.
T3 Total is 1.72 ...Range is .58-1.59
t3 Free was 330 .. .range is 230-420
Reverse t3 was 19 . .. range is 11-32 (in lower half of range)
something is not right with Thyroid, you are storing lots of T3 but do not have proportionally more of FreeT3. I would keep 2grains as is,TSH: .84 (.4-4.5), TSH is not shut down completely, not yet.


T

[garcia]

> She tested for Epstein Barr, CMV, etc. . ..not sure why.

Well she sounds like a good doc because those are the infections I would test for

> They said before I had lyme based on symptoms but I never really was confident that was the correct diagnosis--Also, I never tested positive for it on any blood test. Does this mean anything?

I'm not sure how reliable blood tests are for lyme (let me rephrase that, I know they are not very reliable). But Chlamydia pneumoniae is similar enough to lyme that it could be behind whatever your doc thinks are lyme symptoms. BTW what are your symptoms?

> How did it destroy your health?

Long story! Basically it turned my moderate health problems into severe ones. In particular it destroyed my adrenal health (& endocrine health).

> I was told a large percentage of the general population has C Pnemonia. . . am I incorrect?

Yes thats true. But that doesn't mean it is in any sense harmless. Just means that most people don't know they have it, and the health effects they do get are chronic and insidious enough for them to not correlate with (what starts off as) a respiratory pathogen. Out of the 5 members of my household who caught it, 4 of us had long term health consequences, in my case severe.

I've spent the last 2 years of my life researching that one disease. Unfortunately my adrenal health nosedived to the point I couldn't treat anymore, which is how I ended up here.

[tommytuna]

Looking for some more input on the T levels. are they to high? I do 8 pumps at 10PM and the blood was drawn at 8 am.


April 23 Labs (8 Pumps Androgel .25 Arimidex EOD and 2 Grains Armour)
Estradiol Ultra 14 (<29)
Test Total 1111 (250-1100) HIGH
Test FREE 380.7 (46-224) HIGH
Test Bioavail 782.8 (110-575) HIGH
Albumin 4.5 (3.6-5.1)
SHBG 10 (8-48)
CBC Was all normal except MPV 7 (7.5-11.5) L

[chilln]

My my my: you do have a few problems:



In regards to the SHBG .. . and the liver .. . I have gilbert's they tell me as my billirubin is always slightly elevated. . not sure. . this may be the reason for the difference as well. Any thoughts?


Gilbert's doesn't mess with SHBG, but it does mess with T. More on that later (below) !



In regards to the Test values. . is seems to me they did not shoot until I started the Armidex. that was the main change.

Could that cause such a drastic increase ?


Arimidex definitely caused this much of an increase, and it's primarily because you have Gilbert's Syndrome.

Males with Gilbert's are all high T -> E2 converters.

My research suggests (but does not prove conclusively) that the gene responsible for Gilbert's (which results in the absence of a blood cell metabolism enzyme) also causes the absence of one or more of the E2 metabolism enzymes.

Therefore, your metabolism of E2 is much slower than a normal male's E2 metabolism.

Therefore your E2 levels are much higher than a normal male's E2.

Once you slowed down the amount of T (testosterone) aromatizing into E2 (estradiol), therefore your E2 levels lowered drastically, therefore your T levels were able to remain high.

I am also a Gilbert's sufferer. It's not drastic, but I have to maintain my E2 levels as strictly as I can, and I prefer to take a little too much arimidex, in preference to too little arimidex, because it takes my body several days to lower my E2 levels once they start creeping upward.




These are my results with the normal in the parenthesis.
Are these not the tests for the antibodies. . it is funny . .I am 50% finnish. . .where they did they study.

C Pnemonia IGG 1:512 (<1:64) H
C Pnoemnia IGA 1:256 ( <1:16) H
C Pnomenia IGM <1:10 (Normal)


IgG is immunoglobulin G - ie: an antibody
IgA is immunoglobulin A - ie: an antibody
IgM is immunoglobulin M - ie: an antibody

Therefore these are the correct antibody tests.

You do have a mild case of the disease, and it is contributing to your low T.

###

You actually have at least three root causes of your low testicular T (testosterone) production.

1) Chlamydia pneumoniae (a curable bacterial infection)

2) Gilbert's (an ultra mild genetic disease, incurable)

3) Normal age related hormonal decline.

So even when you recover from your Chlamydia pneumoniae, your Gilbert's is going to drastically reduce your T levels for life.

###

Addressing Chlamydia pneumoniae:

You can eliminate Chlamydia pneumoniae by boosting your T, restoring your Vitamin D levels to high (not medium), occasionally supplementing with lactoferrin to hype your immune system, and by getting more deep sleep (to allow your natural GH to help repair your virus damaged tissues)

Be careful not to take lactoferrin for more than a few days at a time, because your system will then become detuned to lactoferrin's message. Eg: 3 days on (maximum), 14 days off (minimum).

###

Addressing Gilbert's:

We have already addressed your Gilbert's in the previous section.

###

Addressing age related hormonal decline:

Genetics plays a huge role in the reduction of testicular T (testosterone) production, over time.

We all have clock genes which downregulate our testicular T production, by more and more each year after the age of around 23.

So eventually all of us will have T which has tanked (hit rock bottom) unless we boost our T before we get to that point.

For most of us that age is somewhere between 50 and 70, but a few of us experience the problem even before we hit 30 (as was my case).




Mr. Dr. is hesitant on the HCG thing. Not sure what to do


Discuss with your medical professional adviser the benefits of prescribing HCG.

I had to do the same thing with my medical professional adviser. Most of them are hesitant to prescribe HCG.

I printed off the following two papers

1) "AACE Medical Guidelines for Clinical Practice for Evaluation and Treatment of Hypogonadism in Adult Male Patients- 2002 Update"

http://www.aace.com/pub/pdf/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

2) Dr Crisler's "TRT: A Recipe For Success"

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc

I explained to my doctor that the first paper is an endorsement by the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists for the use of HCG as a male testicular testosterone boost therapy for males with hypogonadism (low testicular T production).

I highlighted using a yellow highlight marker pen, the following critical statement on page 449 (per label at top of page)

"For patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism
wishing fertility, hCG with or without human menopausal
gonadotropin (FSH) or pulsatile GnRH therapy and hCG
with or without assisted reproduction are options.

[[ warning: the AACE is also against compounding pharmacies, so let's not get too vocal about supporting everything the AACE wants us to believe ]]

I explained to my doctor that the second paper is an endorsement by Dr Crisler - and I had to explain who Dr Crisler was, and Dr Crisler's reputation in this area.

These days you can point to Dr Crisler's papers being sold on the AAAAM (A4M) site, but back then A4M was only in it's infancy, and D Crisler's papers weren't yet available for download.

Lastly, I had to offer to my medical professional adviser, that we should monitor my hormone levels monthly instead of quarterly, and I agreed to monitoring of several additional variables (which my medical professional adviser wanted to monitor) during the first few months after commencing HCG.

My medical professional adviser agreed to read through these notes, and I returned two weeks later for an ad-hoc visit, and my medical professional professional agreed to prescribe HCG.

I do not know whether my medical professional adviser actually read the two papers.




.. .is there anywhere on the board where people post top Dr.'s? that would be great!


Best to try to get your existing medical professional adviser on your side.

Please do not get aggressive, please be patient and try to win him / her over.









I also want to point out. . .the thyroid tests are skewed since one was after taking my mornign dose and the other was without it. As we know, Free T3 is at its lowest point in the morning.
T3 Total is 1.72 ...Range is .58-1.59
t3 Free was 330 .. .range is 230-420
Reverse t3 was 19 . .. range is 11-32 (in lower half of range)
something is not right with Thyroid, you are storing lots of T3 but do not have proportionally more of FreeT3. I would keep 2grains as is,TSH: .84 (.4-4.5), TSH is not shut down completely, not yet.


Since you have Chlamydia pneumoniae reducing your T levels, and you have Gilbert's ensuring that your E2 levels are high, I doubt that you have a primary thyroid deficiency.

I suspect your thyroid deficiency is secondary, and that your thyroid should be addressable simply by supplementing with Iodoral (a mixture of Iodine, and potassium iodide), provided that you also:

a) attack your Chlamydia pneumoniae bacterial infection,

b) continue to boost your T - but try negotiating with your medical professional adviser to switch to HCG primarily with only a little T cream/gel,

and

c) continue to minimize your excessive E2 (due to Gilbert's) using arimidex.

[tommytuna]

Chilln:

You are a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate your support.
I did not know Arimidex could bolster the T with the Gilbert’s. Just out of curiosity. . how much Armidex do you take and how much HCG and Test?
You suggested I take the Vitamin D and the Lactoferrin for 3 days and then pulse every 2 weeks. Will this cure the Chlaymdia Pneumoniae? Some have suggested antibiotics? I don’t know much about it.

I have discussed the HCG and gave him the Dr. J manual. He said he would give it to me a couple of times a month to prevent the atrophy, but he does not use it as a primary course of treatment. I am not sure what to do on this one. . .I may ask Phil since he sees the same Dr. I do.

You stated that “Since you have Chlamydia pneumoniae reducing your T levels, and you have Gilbert's ensuring that your E2 levels are high, I doubt that you have a primary thyroid deficiency.”. How would one go about doing this. . obviously I just don’t stop taking 2 grains of Armour one day and start up on Iodoral the next. I do agree with you and this does make sense. I think there is a lot more to Gilbert’s then meets the eye.

Since my T levels are over the range right now in the morning after applying the gel at night, I am going to back down from 8 pumps to 6 immediately. I will ask again about the HCG, but I would be interested in knowing what to exactly ask for since it seems that if you do the Dr.’s job, they are more apt to give you what you want.

On a final note. . I did have a 5cm nodule removed last year from my thyroid. They removed the left half of it along with the isthmus. There was no cancer . . . .could this have caused a major “horomonal imbalance” in my entire body which has caused the Testosterone to go low? I have always suspected this. . .but never asked.

Thank you again for the advice and words of wisdom. You know your shi*. I am hoping I can get some support on the HCG from my Dr.. I am susceptible to stress and have also wondered about the GH thing. My Dr. does seem willing to prescribe that . .. .would you explore that route? Also, some on the board seem opposed to Arimidex while others are proponents . .. .why is this? Is there no general consensus.


I really want to get my “life” all the way back. I am about 60% there since starting the
Test.

Thanks T.

[chilln]

Just out of curiosity. . how much Armidex do you take and how much HCG and Test?


Use the search function, ie: "chilln ovidrel micrograms" or "chilln arimidex tab" - sorry but I'm in a hurry.



You suggested I take the Vitamin D and the Lactoferrin for 3 days and then pulse every 2 weeks. Will this cure the Chlaymdia Pneumoniae?


It will help a great deal. High range Vit D is necessary. Get the blood tests to confirm you're there.



Some have suggested antibiotics? I don’t know much about it.


Also works



I have discussed the HCG and gave him the Dr. J manual. He said he would give it to me a couple of times a month to prevent the atrophy,


It won't be enough to prevent the atrophy. HCG only has a half live of 30 hours, and its effects aren't that long lasting.

You'll eventually need to find yourself another medical professional adviser.

Where are you situated geographically ?




You stated that “Since you have Chlamydia pneumoniae reducing your T levels, and you have Gilbert's ensuring that your E2 levels are high, I doubt that you have a primary thyroid deficiency.”


but then...



On a final note. . I did have a 5cm nodule removed last year from my thyroid. They removed the left half of it along with the isthmus. There was no cancer . . . .could this have caused a major “horomonal imbalance” in my entire body which has caused the Testosterone to go low? I have always suspected this. . .but never asked.


Since you've had half your thyroid removed, therefore it's most likely that you will have
a lifelong thyroid hormone deficiency, if you are an energetic person.

If you life your life on the down low, you might never experience hypothyroid symptoms. It's your decision where you want to position yourself.



Since my T levels are over the range right now in the morning after applying the gel at night, I am going to back down from 8 pumps to 6 immediately. I will ask again about the HCG, but I would be interested in knowing what to exactly ask for since it seems that if you do the Dr.’s job, they are more apt to give you what you want.


I use Ovidrel (recombinant HCG), but it's more expensive that Novarel (urinary derived HCG).

Search this forum for novarel and read up. There's too much to explain, and I'm no fan of urinary derived HCG, so I don't delve into it, and I can afford recombinant HCG. But you might not be in the same boat.




Thank you again for the advice and words of wisdom. You know your shi*. I am hoping I can get some support on the HCG from my Dr.. I am susceptible to stress and have also wondered about the GH thing. My Dr. does seem willing to prescribe that . .. .would you explore that route?


I am already on that route



Also, some on the board seem opposed to Arimidex while others are proponents . .. .why is this? Is there no general consensus.


Drugs are drugs. They're not natural substances which have been exposed to mammal species for millions of years. big pharma have a bad reputation for not monitoring the long term effects of their products, because the laws do not require them to do so (only for 5 years - I believe).

The long term health knowledge of arimidex is that we should monitor our health very carefully if we use arimidex, but it hasn't caused anyone any issues at the doses we take, at least not thus far - other than issues arising from too low E2 if you take too much.

[hardasnails1973]

Just in my own observation with people with thyroid, adrenals, Testosterone imbalances seem to be highly sensitive to the fluctuation in e2 either high or low. I mean I have seen people on adex 1 pills a day for 6 months and not experience no where near the side effects then people that have other hormonal imbalances. Even if a persons with no other hormone imbalances e2 goes sky high they feel nothing. If mine drops just a bit then I expereince alot of low e2 symptoms as well as it goes above a certain number while still being well with in range. Could this be how the liver could be processing this in some unusual way?

[JanSz]

HCG only has a half live of 30 hours, and its effects aren't that long lasting.

I do my HCG shots EOD, (48hrs).
I feel changes in my testicles firmness on 48hrs frequency.
Many people are on 2 HCG shots per week, the two days before their T shot.
Week have 168 hours.
About 100 hours out of 168 are without benefit of HCG.

================================================== =
http://home.intekom.com/pharm/donmed/pregnyl.html

Pharmacokinetics
Maximal plasma hCG levels will be reached in males approximately 6 and 16 hours after a single intramuscular or subcutaneous injection of hCG, respectively and in females after approximately 20 hours. HCG is approximately 80 per cent metabolized, predominantly in the kidneys. Intramuscular and subcutaneous administration of hCG were found to be bioequivalent regarding the extent of absorption and the apparent elimination half-lives of approximately 33 hours. On basis of the recommended dose regimens and elimination half-life, cumulation is not expected to occur.

[TryingToFix]

Arimidex definitely caused this much of an increase, and it's primarily because you have Gilbert's Syndrome.

Males with Gilbert's are all high T -> E2 converters.

My research suggests (but does not prove conclusively) that the gene responsible for Gilbert's (which results in the absence of a blood cell metabolism enzyme) also causes the absence of one or more of the E2 metabolism enzymes.

Therefore, your metabolism of E2 is much slower than a normal male's E2 metabolism.

Therefore your E2 levels are much higher than a normal male's E2.

Once you slowed down the amount of T (testosterone) aromatizing into E2 (estradiol), therefore your E2 levels lowered drastically, therefore your T levels were able to remain high.
.

The Gilbert's Syndrome website mentions studies that indicate SAMe has the ability to reduce the bilirubin problem.

Has anyone taken it and found results with bilirubin levels?
Relieved outlying symptoms with it?
And did it affect how E2 was then processed? (this is less clear if it is possible)

[hardasnails1973]

I use sam-e in athletes that are burnt out and with some rest as well as lifestyle changes, nutrition, identifying the stressors, counseling if emotional imbalances involved. Matter of a few days to a week they feel better. I use sam-e as first attempt in depresson that people do not want to go non drug route. Start low and work up and monitor for side effects. Not every one is successful with sam-e. Majority of depression comes from liver and gut imbalances not the brain.

[chilln]

Majority of depression comes from liver and gut imbalances not the brain.


Not correct. Both depression and gut imbalances have the same cause = a downregulated cortisol-production-line.


Majority of depression comes from inadequate neurotransmitters
Inadequate neurotransmitters comes from inadequate pregnenolone.
Inadequate pregnenolone comes from a downregulated cortisol-production-line


Majority of gut imbalances are due to inadequate cortisol
Inadequate cortisol comes from inadequate pregnenolone.
Inadequate pregnenolone comes from a downregulated cortisol-production-line


A downregulated cortisol-production-line comes from the combination of:

.....A) Genetic aging downregulating our overall metabolism (thyroid and cortisol)

.....B) Our modern society's outright demand for humans to subject themselves to excessive mental stressors working long hours into the night under lights - which consumes far more cortisol in the afternoon and evening when our cortisol reseres are low.

.....C) Eating foods which are high in carbs and proteins, and practically non-existent alkalinity and phytonutrients (vitamins and minerals are less of a problem, but still a problem).

.

[hardasnails1973]

Stress regulates the gut response due to hidden infection or inflammation with in the gut. After dealing with numerous cases of gut inflammation and infections majority of people that were on cortef are no off once the cause was found as depression was alleviate as well.

hidden gut infections and inflammation ----> over taxing liver pathways -----> depletes cortisol levels over time..

My focal point is identifying the cause of the stress and supporting the symptoms untill the source is dealt with.

So if your theory is right taking TD pregenolone with replacement cortisol should bring down SHBG.

I am begining to wonder if elevated shbg is due to prolong cortef replacement in some people which are secondary.

[chilln]

Stress regulates the gut response due to hidden infection or inflammation with in the gut. After dealing with numerous cases of gut inflammation and infections majority of people that were on cortef are no [chilln edit: better] off


Making a case for cortisol being linked to a problem situation, using statistics from people taking HC, never convinces me.

HC is not a serious contender when it comes to boosting our cortisol continuously over a whole day, or even just for our waking hours.

HC supplementation, at 10mg or more per dose, cranks cortisol too high too quickly in most people, and causes ACTH suppression within an hour, which then results in brain fog symptoms returning within an hour or so after dosing.

HC supplementation at 5mg per dose, usually raises cortisol to below the point where it causes ACTH suppression (good), but this low dose is metabolized very quickly, usually the effects are gone within 2 hours. So dosing HC at such low doses requires a dosing frequency of between 6 and 8 times a day. Only very few people are prepared to dose HC this frequently.

So the majority of males supplementing with HC to boost their cortisol, are either taking too much HC in the morning (at 10mg or more per dose) and causing some ACTH suppression, and later in the day when they switch to 5mg doses, they're dosing their HC frequently enough to provide an approximately continuous effect.

So when you say:



hidden gut infections and inflammation ----> over taxing liver pathways -----> depletes cortisol levels over time..


I say, if you're right (and I don't believe your are) then you'll need to technology other than stats derived frm those who supplement with HC, to make your point to me. Others may be prepared to accept this sort of input as accurate, but not me.

###

The biology behind how a downregulated cortisol-production-line causes gut dysfunction is explained here:

For those who are experiencing normal genetic aging, a reduction in cortisol occurs first, when our body downregulates our overall metabolism by:
.....a) mostly downregulating our cortisol-production-line,
.....and
.....b) plus a lttle downregulation of our thyroid hormone subsystem.

The reduction in overall metabolism causes digestion problems because our digestion is critically dependant on:
.....a) the ability of the blood vessels surrounding our digestive organs to dilate to focus blood flow on digestion
.....and
.....b) the ability of cells involved in digestion and nutrient shunting to upregulate their metabolism

Both blood vessel dilation and increased cell overall metabolism require the continuous synthesis of T3 from T4 within those cells, as well as a continuous supply of cortisol from the adrenal glands.

Someone with either liver damage, or a mild genetic deficiency which reduces their ability to produce sufficient enzymes to digest food into its constituent parts, will barely notice any evidence of such a problem in their youth, because their high cortisol levels (mostly) and their high thyroid hormone T3 levels (to a lesser degree) will effectively workaround most mild genetic deficiencies in their digestive organs.

But once a person with a mild genetic deficiency in their digestive organs experiences genetic aging slowdow of their overall metabolism (cortisol mostly, and thyroid to a lesser degree) then they will suffer greatly - and the biggest impact is from the reduction in cortisol-production-line.

The usefulness of this info is that we can see that this person needs to ramp up the output of their cortisol-production-line, in order to get back to their more youthful gut metabolism, where their high levels of hormones compensated for their mild genetic deficiencies.

.