RANT THREAD - Politics. drug companies, presidents health plans, insurances, ect

[hardasnails1973]

For all those that want to biatch, complain, rant, praise, destroy, mangle, torture health care, president's view or approaches, drug companies, dr's practice and any thing else related to the health care reform system GO FOR IT ..KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF ..

[crazycrew]

Opening this can of worms could mean the end of life as we know it. Run,,, Run for your lives......

[hardasnails1973]

Opening up this can of worms will keep crap out of threads that are meant to be intended for other subjects. To many threads get full of crap unrelated to the main topic. Be talking about thyroid and then end up talking about health care reform ..

[crazycrew]

I can appreciate that and in theory sounds great. But when ones train of thought veers off subject and someone else picks it up; it would be difficult to stop it, or for them to remember to move it here. Even so its a good idea and I hope it works..

[PhoneMonkey]

Well I have a unique take on drug companies at any rate, entertaining if not informative. And it's definitely off topic!

My wife used to work for a “big phrama” company here locally as a research librarian and we both had a pretty dim view of the entire enterprise seeing it from the inside. They ended up getting bought by Chiron (even bigger “big phrama”) and they immediately started dismantling the company and ended up liquidating the place and laying everyone off within a year. Typical patent-grab maneuver common to the industry – they didn’t even bother slurping up the scientists for the most part – evil stuff but par for the course.

What’s interesting though, is the local PETA folks (hanging out with their ALF friends we suspect) decided my wife was the devil incarnate having worked for Chiron. Granted, as a librarian and as a (very short time) acquisition hire who wasn’t even employed during the time period they were concerned with (Huntington labs testing in the UK), but this didn’t matter. We had protesters outside our house on and off for months – I kid you not. 4am drive bys with megaphones, signs with pictures of eviscerated animals, writing “puppy killer” on our lawn, pleasant gifts left on our porch, scratching cars, threatening phone calls, following us around – the whole high-drama route. Quickly found that trying to talk to them and explain my wife’s very tangential relationship with Chiron did zero good – just lots of yelling and histrionics at about a 12 year old’s level is about the best you got. Even when my wife was cut by Chiron they didn’t stop – not sure exactly what it was they wanted other than to make themselves feel good by making someone else miserable (and all our neighbors as well).

When someone detonated a pipe bomb in Chiron’s office in California the FBI started hanging out near our house and I’m sure the earnest young folks got a whiff of just what the people they were rubbing shoulders with were capable of and melted away right quick.

So… not a big fan of Big Pharma – but not a big fan of anti-Big Pharma either. I’ve settled on a simmering annoyance with everyone involved. If anything the entire episode made me a bit more sympathetic to some of the drug company employees that have to put up with this all the time...

[JanSz]

As long as they do not take private Dr's away from us...

Good point, but should have been thought of prior to the election.

IIRC, in the first Hilary's plan, there was a jail sentence provision for using private doctors.

.================================================= ====

[gman]

my old doc before we moved told me that we pay $5-10 for some meds, and the same meds in his native country are 25-50 cents a piece.

We pay extra to fund the research and advertising budgets, while the rest of the world benefits.

[JanSz]

To get our energy into half a decent shape, among other we need 700 additional Nuclear power plants.
Each plant 1000 megawatts generating capacity.
Something similar to 350 plants like this (two units):
To operate the plant 1,130 full-time employees on-site and 180 in Allentown, Pa.
http://www.pplweb.com/ppl+generation/nuclear+plants/ppl+susquehanna+fact+sheet.htm


Building of this plants would create at least another 700*1000=700000 high quality high payng jobs lasting long time.

For a total of about 2.000.000 high class jobs.

I am not even starting about supporting infrastructure and power lines,
probably another 2mil jobs

4mil workers each with wife/husband and 2 children=16 mil people

How many restaurants, doctors and McDonalds would be need to support this crowd?
Lawyers, community organizers and all union members would have to be moved someplace else.
================================================== ======

I would like someone to asses how many windmills is need to provide equal power generation (24hr/day 365days/year availability).
What would be the required acreage for those windmils.

I suspect that the required acreage is about a size of a one whole medium size US state, but would like to see better information.
I am sure that our environmentalists would not mind devoting one whole state to 50% national energy production.
.
.

[JackBauer]

To get our energy into half a decent shape, among other we need 700 additional Nuclear power plants.
Each plant 1000 megawatts generating capacity.
Something similar to 350 plants like this (two units):
To operate the plant 1,130 full-time employees on-site and 180 in Allentown, Pa.


I think the most recent generation of reactors - the higher output ones, would actually be in the 1300-1600MW range.

I'm not anti-nuclear by any means...

You would however run into massive fuel processing bottlenecks - as well as spent fuel storage issues, when dealing with that number of reactors.

I do fully agree with you in terms of investing stimulus monies appropriately - in a way that would increase our productivity, improve our national security by decreasing dependence on foreign energy sources, and reduce carbon ouitput.

Instead the vast majority is just trying to stimulate by spending - and by redistribution. No vision. Complete incompetence.

While both parties are to blame for earmarks (really!) - the Democratic party is definitely leading the way with spending needlessly - and of course, redistributing...

(Bush also to be fair, never met a spending bill he didn't like - she he fails here too)

[JanSz]

I think the most recent generation of reactors - the higher output ones, would actually be in the 1300-1600MW range.

I'm not anti-nuclear by any means...

You would however run into massive fuel processing bottlenecks - as well as spent fuel storage issues, when dealing with that number of reactors.

I do fully agree with you in terms of investing stimulus monies appropriately - in a way that would increase our productivity, improve our national security by decreasing dependence on foreign energy sources, and reduce carbon ouitput.

Instead the vast majority is just trying to stimulate by spending - and by redistribution. No vision. Complete incompetence.

While both parties are to blame for earmarks (really!) - the Democratic party is definitely leading the way with spending needlessly - and of course, redistributing...

(Bush also to be fair, never met a spending bill he didn't like - she he fails here too)

Fuel storage is a created monstrous artificial issue.

If you process spend fuel the way french do you can run on the same fuel almost indefinitely.

.

[JackBauer]

Fuel storage is a created monstrous artificial issue.

If you process spend fuel the way french do you can run on the same fuel almost indefinitely.

.

You're right - I totally forgot about that actually.

[JanSz]

You're right - I totally forgot about that actually.

Remember,
we were supposed to
drive big cars
and have free gas and electricity

this is achievable if next time right people will get elected.

Somehow I do not see Democrats or Republicans being able to pull it of.
Indeed we need a Change, but not the kind that is in the cards now.
.

[cpeil2]

My wife used to work for a “big phrama” company here locally as a research librarian and we both had a pretty dim view of the entire enterprise seeing it from the inside. They ended up getting bought by Chiron (even bigger “big phrama”) and they immediately started dismantling the company and ended up liquidating the place and laying everyone off within a year.

During my days as a corporate librarian (biotech - not big pharma), I got together for lunch occasionally with the people in the library at Chiron's headquarters in Emeryville.

[PhoneMonkey]

During my days as a corporate librarian (biotech - not big pharma), I got together for lunch occasionally with the people in the library at Chiron's headquarters in Emeryville.

You might have met George then - very cool guy working for a not-so-cool company (at least from our perspective). He was the director at the time they bought my wife's company and was about the only worthwhile thing we saw come up from there (the rest were lawyers and HR folks - go figure). I heard he semi-retired and went back into pure research involved with immunology or some such. Good for him...

[cpeil2]

You might have met George then - very cool guy working for a not-so-cool company (at least from our perspective). He was the director at the time they bought my wife's company and was about the only worthwhile thing we saw come up from there (the rest were lawyers and HR folks - go figure). I heard he semi-retired and went back into pure research involved with immunology or some such. Good for him...


George MacGregor? A very nice guy . . .very committed to the profession.

[GirlyMan]

Remember,
we were supposed to
drive big cars
and have free gas and electricity

Sorry, I have pretty good recall but that particular memory escapes me. I'll keep trying to recover it though ... :unsure:

[hardasnails1973]

Bump :thumbup1:

[crazycrew]

On
>Thursday,Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of
>the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton , Colorado , was
>invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What
>he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress
>was painfully truthful.
>>
>> They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received
>well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every
>politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called
>expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful,
>penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this
>man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of
>the transcript:
>>
>> "Since the dawn
>> of creation there has
>been both good and evil in the hearts of men
>and women.. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of
>violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the
>deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died
>must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.
>> "The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother
>Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used.. Neither
>was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was
>Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's
>heart..
>>
>> "In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how
>quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA.. I am
>not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I
>am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe
>that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not
>believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything
>to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent.
>>
>> I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy --
>it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the
>real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the
>blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I
>wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best.
>>
>
>> Your laws ignore our deepest needs, Your words are empty air. You've
>> stripped away our heritage, You've outlawed simple prayer. Now gunshots
>> fill our classrooms, And precious children die. You seek for answers
>> everywhere, And ask the question "Why?" You regulate restrictive laws,
>> Through legislative creed. And yet you fail to understand, That God is
>> what we need!
>>
>> " Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind,
>and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up,
>we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and
>wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational
>> systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges
>began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has
>happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so
>doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as
>terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look
>for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more
>restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private
>liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would
>not have been20stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can
>stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real
>villain lies within our own hearts.
>>
>> "As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and
>> saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not
>hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him
>that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the
>world, to realize that onApril 20, 1999, at Columbine High
>School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many
>prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new
>millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your
>God-given right to communicate with Him.. To those of you who would
>point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare
>to examine your
>> own heart before casting the first stone!
>> My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this
>country will not allow that to happen!"
>>
>> Do what the media did not - - let the nation hear this man's speech

[crazycrew]

This was an article from the St. Petersburg Times Newspaper on Sunday. The Business Section asked readers for ideas on How Would You Fix the Economy? I thought this was the BEST idea. I think this guy nailed it!

Dear Mr.President,

Patriotic retirement:

There's about 40 million people over 50 in the work force; pay them $1 million apiece severance with these stipulations:

1) They leave their jobs.
Forty million job openings - Unemployment fixed.

2) They buy NEW American cars. Forty million cars ordered- Auto Industry fixed.

3) They either buy a house or pay off their mortgage - Housing Crisis fixed.
4) Cost: $40,000,000,000
($40 billion--still way less than the stimulus packages passed) .

[GirlyMan]

Dear Mr.President,

Patriotic retirement:

There's about 40 million people over 50 in the work force; pay them $1 million apiece severance with these stipulations:
...
4) Cost: $40,000,000,000
($40 billion--still way less than the stimulus packages passed) .

40,000,000 x 1,000,000 = 40,000,000,000,000 (40 trillion). But we could pay them a $1000 each for $40 billion. Not sure how many takers there would be, though.

[crazycrew]

Patriotic retirement:

There's about 40 million people over 50 in the work force; pay them $1 million apiece severance with these stipulations:

1) They leave their jobs.
Forty million job openings - Unemployment fixed.

2) They buy NEW American cars. Forty million cars ordered- Auto Industry fixed.

3) They either buy a house or pay off their mortgage - Housing Crisis fixed.
4) Cost: $40,000,000,000


($40 billion--still way less than the stimulus packages passed) .

math works for me

[Cajun]

math works for me - I'm guessing math wasn't your strong suite

$40,000,000 x $1,000,000 = $40,000,000,000,000 Forty Trillion

Not
$40,000,000 x $1,000,000 = $40,000,000,000 Forty Billion :nopity:

[crazycrew]

$40,000,000 x $1,000,000 = $40,000,000,000,000 Forty Trillion

Not
$40,000,000 x $1,000,000 = $40,000,000,000 Forty Billion :nopity:

Just following my governments example. And you are right. You should see me try to balance my checkbook. :huh:

[crazycrew]

Keep your guns handy. I believe the day will come when we really will be playing cowboys and muslims. There's one camp in Alabama. I think we need to raid it this weekend. Click on the link below to watch - you'll be shocked!

It's true, I checked it on Snopes.com


http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=185279

[GirlyMan]

math works for me

Me too, as long as I'm one of the first 40,000 to get my $1,000,000 buyout from the $40 billion.


Keep your guns handy.

Yeah, I'll need 'em to protect myself from those other 39,960,000 poor bastards lookin' for their $1,000,000.

[Mark]

Keep your guns handy. I believe the day will come when we really will be playing cowboys and muslims. There's one camp in Alabama. I think we need to raid it this weekend. Click on the link below to watch - you'll be shocked!

It's true, I checked it on Snopes.com

http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=185279

Unfortunately they're exploiting our Constitution. We have firearms training facilities already in several states, you can get tactical training of a sort if you have "assault" rifles.

Maybe they could get tagged on tax evasion or discrimination if the evidence is lacking for criminal proceedings with regard to supporting terrrorism. I would think they're at least being watched and who comes and goes being noted. If not, someone is asleep at the switch.

[GirlyMan]

Keep your guns handy. I believe the day will come when we really will be playing cowboys and muslims. There's one camp in Alabama. I think we need to raid it this weekend. Click on the link below to watch - you'll be shocked!


Maybe they could get tagged on tax evasion or discrimination if the evidence is lacking for criminal proceedings with regard to supporting terrrorism. I would think they're at least being watched and who comes and goes being noted. If not, someone is asleep at the switch.

I am neither a muslim, nor a christian, nor a jew nor a hindu nor buddhist nor daoist nor shintoist nor druid nor wiccan nor .... I am areligious and believe in neither the post-mortem preservation of identity nor the existence of a supreme being. I find this line of commentary offensive and do not think it is appropriate for this forum. In fact, I consider it Un-American.

[Mark]

I am neither a muslim, nor a christian, nor a jew nor a hindu nor buddhist nor daoist nor shintoist nor druid nor wiccan nor .... I am areligious and believe in neither the post-mortem preservation of identity nor the existence of a supreme being. I find this line of commentary offensive and do not think it is appropriate for this forum. In fact, I consider it Un-American.

Excuse me?

[crazycrew]

Sure didn't want to offend any athiest. Jez (oops)


:leaving: :rofl: :smilielol5: :gnorsi:

[GirlyMan]

Sure didn't want to offend any athiest. Jez (oops)


:leaving: :rofl: :smilielol5: :gnorsi:

god forbid.

[gman]

to hell with atheists! lol

[biceps72]

IMHO, threads like this never really accomplish much but make people mad and make people, that agree most of the time, enemies!!

I read this forum for mens health; that is what it is best at.

There are a lot of political discussion forums that you can find that you might like from very, very leftist to way right of Atilla the Hun! Pick your toxin!

[GirlyMan]

You're right.

My bad,
Bob

[crazycrew]

There comes a time in every man's life when he stops bustin' knuckles and starts bustin' caps and usually it's when he becomes too old to take an butt whoopin'." I don't carry a gun to kill people. I carry a gun to keep from being killed. I don't carry a gun to scare people. I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place. I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid. I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world. I don't carry a gun because I'm evil. I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world. I don't carry a gun because I hate the government. I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government. I don't carry a gun because I'm angry. I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life being angry at myself for failing to be prepared. I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed,and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon. I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man. I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love. I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate. I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate. I don't carry a gun because I love it. I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me." Police Protection" is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect themselves. Police do not protect you from crime; they investigate the crime after it happens. and then try to clean up the mess. Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an butt whoopin'

[GirlyMan]

I don't carry a gun to kill people. I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

I don't carry a gun because a Concealed Carry Weapons permit in my state is very hard to come by unless you can verify an imminent threat. Doesn't mean you should feel safe storming my house, though. They let me keep plenty there.

(It does appear that my state law has a provision for people required to carry around large sums of cash. I am considering testing that provision by carrying around large sums of cash and stating that I am doing so because, lacking an imminent threat, obtaining a CCW permit requires it.)

[anyman]

There comes a time in every man's life when he stops bustin' knuckles and starts bustin' caps and usually it's when he becomes too old to take an butt whoopin'." I don't carry a gun to kill people. I carry a gun to keep from being killed. I don't carry a gun to scare people. I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place. I don't carry a gun because I'm paranoid. I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world. I don't carry a gun because I'm evil. I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world. I don't carry a gun because I hate the government. I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government. I don't carry a gun because I'm angry. I carry a gun so that I don't have to spend the rest of my life being angry at myself for failing to be prepared. I don't carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed,and not on a sidewalk somewhere tomorrow afternoon. I don't carry a gun to make me feel like a man. I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love. I don't carry a gun because I feel inadequate. I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate. I don't carry a gun because I love it. I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me." Police Protection" is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect themselves. Police do not protect you from crime; they investigate the crime after it happens. and then try to clean up the mess. Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an butt whoopin'

Damn well said. I'm the same way. Best to have & not need rather than the other way around.

[crazycrew]

I am considering testing that provision by carrying around large sums of cash and stating that I am doing so because, lacking an imminent threat, obtaining a CCW permit requires it.)

If I'm correct to qualify for that provision in most states you have to be involved in some buisiness that deals in larger sums of cash. ie buying cars, retail store deposits ect.

[anyman]

I don't carry a gun because a Concealed Carry Weapons permit in my state is very hard to come by unless you can verify an imminent threat. Doesn't mean you should feel safe storming my house, though. They let me keep plenty there.

(It does appear that my state law has a provision for people required to carry around large sums of cash. I am considering testing that provision by carrying around large sums of cash and stating that I am doing so because, lacking an imminent threat, obtaining a CCW permit requires it.)

A CCW is well worth it. Now if you want to talk about hard to get, try & get anything related to the "black rifles". Eesh--that's hard to come by! One item I ordered took 5 months to arrive. Very expensive, but to me very worth it!:cheers2:

[GirlyMan]

If I'm correct to qualify for that provision in most states you have to be involved in some buisiness that deals in larger sums of cash. ie buying cars, retail store deposits ect.

That may very well be the intent. But I can't find anything which prevents me from testing it logically. I still need to make sure this tact hasn't been tried before here.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Well I have a unique take on drug companies at any rate, entertaining if not informative. And it's definitely off topic!

My wife used to work for a “big phrama” company here locally as a research librarian and we both had a pretty dim view of the entire enterprise seeing it from the inside. They ended up getting bought by Chiron (even bigger “big phrama”) and they immediately started dismantling the company and ended up liquidating the place and laying everyone off within a year. Typical patent-grab maneuver common to the industry – they didn’t even bother slurping up the scientists for the most part – evil stuff but par for the course.

What’s interesting though, is the local PETA folks (hanging out with their ALF friends we suspect) decided my wife was the devil incarnate having worked for Chiron. Granted, as a librarian and as a (very short time) acquisition hire who wasn’t even employed during the time period they were concerned with (Huntington labs testing in the UK), but this didn’t matter. We had protesters outside our house on and off for months – I kid you not. 4am drive bys with megaphones, signs with pictures of eviscerated animals, writing “puppy killer” on our lawn, pleasant gifts left on our porch, scratching cars, threatening phone calls, following us around – the whole high-drama route. Quickly found that trying to talk to them and explain my wife’s very tangential relationship with Chiron did zero good – just lots of yelling and histrionics at about a 12 year old’s level is about the best you got. Even when my wife was cut by Chiron they didn’t stop – not sure exactly what it was they wanted other than to make themselves feel good by making someone else miserable (and all our neighbors as well).

When someone detonated a pipe bomb in Chiron’s office in California the FBI started hanging out near our house and I’m sure the earnest young folks got a whiff of just what the people they were rubbing shoulders with were capable of and melted away right quick.

So… not a big fan of Big Pharma – but not a big fan of anti-Big Pharma either. I’ve settled on a simmering annoyance with everyone involved. If anything the entire episode made me a bit more sympathetic to some of the drug company employees that have to put up with this all the time...People like that won't let facts get in the way of their emotional morbidity.

It'd be fun to do it right back at them. After all, they actually deserve it!

[Mark]

If I'm correct to qualify for that provision in most states you have to be involved in some buisiness that deals in larger sums of cash. ie buying cars, retail store deposits ect.

I'm glad I live in Indiana. I got my lifetime carry permit this year. We don't have to have any business reason and it's shall issue. The permit also doesn't require you to carry concealed, though in some places you might have to deal with people freaking out when they see you.

And where I'm at in Indiana puts me in driving distance to Dr. J for when that day comes. :)

[crazycrew]

Texas is a conceal state. I believe New Mexico, Montana. and the Dakotas are open states as well. I wish everyone would qualify and carry an exposed weapon. I don't believe there would be nearly the violence and crime we have today. Our own government calls it a "deterent against agression".

[JanSz]

Watch out for well meaning politicians.
Men or women, some freshly elected.

They may hung as to dry
while having best intentions.

Some of them are sincerely love us the best way they are able.
--------------------------------------------------

The love story of Ralph and Edna...

Just because someone doesn't love you the way you want them to, doesn't mean they don't love you with all they have.

Ralph and Edna were both patients in a mental hospital.

One day while they were walking past the hospital swimming pool.

Ralph suddenly jumped into the deep end.
He sank to the bottom of the pool and stayed there.

Edna promptly jumped in to save him. She swam to the bottom and pulled him out.

When the Head Nurse Director became aware of Edna's heroic act she immediately ordered her to be discharged from the hospital, as she now considered her to be
mentally stable.

When she went to tell Edna the news she said, 'Edna, I have good news and bad news.

The good news is you're being discharged, since you were able to rationally respond to a crisis by jumping in and saving the life of the person you love. I have concluded that your act displays sound mindedness.

The bad news is, Ralph hung himself in the bathroom with his bathrobe belt right after you saved him. I am so sorry, but he's dead.'

Edna replied, 'He didn't hang himself, I put him there to dry. How soon can I go home?'

Happy Mental Health Day!

[crazycrew]

--- NBA Or NFL ?


36 have been accused of spousal abuse

7 have been arrested for fraud

19 have been accused of writing bad checks

117 have directly or indirectlybankrupted at least 2 businesses

3 have done time for assault

71 , repeat 71
cannot get a credit card due to bad credit

14 have been arrested on drug-related charges

8 have been arrested for shoplifting

21 currently are defendants in lawsuits,

and
84 have been arrested for drunk driving

in the last year


Can
you guess which organization this is?


NBA Or NFL

?

Give up yet?

Scroll down,





Neither,
it's the 535 members of the
United States Congress

[crazycrew]

HR 45 Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sales Act of 2009
... this is Obama guncontrol by secrecy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Very Important for you to be aware of a new bill HR 45 introduced into the House.
This is the Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sale Act of 2009.
We just learned yesterday about this on the Peter Boyles radio program.
Even gun shop owners didn't know about this because it is flying under the radar.
To find out about this - go to any government website and type in HR 45 or Google HR 45 Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sales Act of 2009. You will get all the information.


Basically this would make it illegal to own a firearm - any rifle with a clip or ANY pistol unless:

.It is registered
.You are fingerprinted
.You supply a current Driver's License
.You supply your Social Security #
.You will submit to a physical & mental evaluation at any time of their choosing
.Each update - change or ownership through private or public sale must be reported and costs $25
- Failure to do so you automatically lose the right to own a firearm and are subject up to a year in jail.

.There is a child provision clause on page 16 section 305 stating a child-access provision. Gun must be locked and inaccessible to any child under 18.

The Government would have the right to come and inspect that you are storing your gun safely away from accessibility to children and fine is punishable for up to 5 yrs. in prison.

If you think this is a joke - go to the website and take your pick of many options to read this..
http://www.opencong ress.org/ bill/111- h45/text


############################################
Googled it and got this

1/6/2009--Introduced.
Blair Holt's Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2009 - Amends the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act to prohibit a person from possessing a firearm unless that person has been issued a firearm license under this Act or a state system certified under this Act and such license has not been invalidated or revoked. Prescribes license application, issuance, and renewal requirements.
Prohibits transferring or receiving a qualifying firearm unless the recipient presents a valid firearms license, the license is verified, and the dealer records a tracking authorization number. Prescribes firearms transfer reporting and record keeping requirements. Directs the Attorney General to establish and maintain a federal record of sale system.
Prohibits: (1) transferring a firearm to any person other than a licensee, unless the transfer is processed through a licensed dealer in accordance with national instant criminal background check system requirements, with exceptions; (2) a licensed manufacturer or dealer from failing to comply with reporting and record keeping requirements of this Act; (3) failing to report the loss or theft of the firearm to the Attorney General within 72 hours; (4) failing to report to the Attorney General an address change within 60 days; or (5) keeping a loaded firearm, or an unloaded firearm and ammunition for the firearm, knowingly or recklessly disregarding the risk that a child is capable of gaining access, if a child uses the firearm and causes death or serious bodily injury.
Prescribes criminal penalties for violations of firearms provisions covered by this Act.
Directs the Attorney General to: (1) establish and maintain a firearm injury information clearinghouse; (2) conduct continuing studies and investigations of firearm-related deaths and injuries; and (3) collect and maintain current production and sales figures of each licensed manufacturer.
Authorizes the Attorney General to certify state firearm licensing or record of sale systems.

[anyman]

GFY

How's that?

We have the 2nd amendment. Enough of this BS.

[pmgamer18]

I am retired from Chry. and losing my health care by the day. I am on a fixed income and can't afford to pay for labs like this and my BCBS will not pay to test this way to them one test every 8 weeks is all they will pay for. My heart sugary cost my BCBS over a half a million and calming.

All the labs people recommend most can't get them payed for and can't afford them.

[JanSz]

I am retired from Chry. and losing my health care by the day. I am on a fixed income and can't afford to pay for labs like this and my BCBS will not pay to test this way to them one test every 8 weeks is all they will pay for. My heart sugary cost my BCBS over a half a million and calming.

All the labs people recommend most can't get them payed for and can't afford them.

What you descibing have been clearly and often promissed during presidential campain.

You are in minority.

.

[JanSz]

every 8 weeks should be frequent enough .
You can expect potential loss in your retirement check potentially too.
There is NOTHING set in stone .
If you are under 62, be glad you have ANY coverage especially for medicine.

I am self employed age 46 , married w 2 kids and pay 1100 month in insurance premium. Thats considered a good deal.

If you dare to make money, you will pay for it.

.====================================

When my father had 2 cows that was considered to be rich (way back in Poland).

They took one of his cows because hi had to much wealth.
They took his other cow as a punishment.
.
Lucky for him to live in Poland, in USSR they would have shot him for such offence,
or took to Siberia if they had a room in Kibitka.
.

[matttaylor]

If you dare to make money, you will pay for it.

.====================================

When my father had 2 cows that was considered to be rich (way back in Poland).

They took one of his cows because hi had to much wealth.
They took his other cow as a punishment.
.
Lucky for him to live in Poland, in USSR they would have shot him for such offence,
or took to Siberia if they had a room in Kibitka.
.

I am not *****ing about my premium it is what it is. At least I can pick up the phone a see a doc when I want to. You want to see some scary stuff check out my last years medical expenses''

insurance premium 12x $1,100 = $13,200
copays , medicines and office visit = $2,200
out of pocket blood test, Rhein Labs, Lef, compounded medications, TRT meds etc = $2,800
out of network depression therapist lady 19 X $120 = 2280
out of network psych doc $ $2,200
out of network TRT treatment doctor
went to 3 or them last year = $$2,300

lots of other things , spent over 26k last year with premiums and out of pocket stuff

PLUS 6 k for gynecomastia surgery

[GirlyMan]

If you dare to make money, you will pay for it.

.====================================

When my father had 2 cows that was considered to be rich (way back in Poland).

They took one of his cows because hi had to much wealth.
They took his other cow as a punishment.
.
Lucky for him to live in Poland, in USSR they would have shot him for such offence,
or took to Siberia if they had a room in Kibitka.
.

But you, at least, can experientially substantiate your opposition to socialism (in the limit anyway, i.e. communism).

That said, all countries are socialist. The difference lies only in the degree.

[JanSz]

I am not *****ing about my premium it is what it is. At least I can pick up the phone a see a doc when I want to. You want to see some scary stuff check out my last years medical expenses''

insurance premium 12x $1,100 = $13,200
copays , medicines and office visit = $2,200
out of pocket blood test, Rhein Labs, Lef, compounded medications, TRT meds etc = $2,800
out of network depression therapist lady 19 X $120 = 2280
out of network psych doc $ $2,200
out of network TRT treatment doctor
went to 3 or them last year = $$2,300

lots of other things , spent over 26k last year with premiums and out of pocket stuff

PLUS 6 k for gynecomastia surgery

It is dificult to be sure,
but with proper TRT you should have avoided the shrinks.
I am afraid, they may do more damage than help.

I do not have this type of knowlegde, just general impression.
-------------------------------------------
out of network depression therapist lady 19 X $120 = 2280
out of network psych doc $ $2,200
-----------------------------------------------------------------

32k/year for one person
if you are family of 4 or 6

200k medical expenses/year first
then there may not be much left for groceries.

And I am not sure where to put in the budget the 10k/person for supplements, vitamins, fats, proteins and so on.
==============================================
.

[matttaylor]

Janz, you are absolutely correct, I a slowly backing away from the PDOCS and those SSRI drugs, they were a huge mistake, but I had no idea about when prescribed 4 years ago. They are poiison
I had some severe personal tragedies and I let myself run down [ blood work later backed that up] but the time I figured that out I was letting the pdoc run the show and my health. Wrong

[Nuclear]

I got this from a trade newsletter.

Did You Know?
…it looks like our "take-home" pay is larger now. Can't wait until next April 15th when we have to give it back! The increase is due to a change in the withholding tax tables only, NOT a decrease in the taxes we must pay!


Withholding Information
To accommodate the change in the withholding tax tables, explain to your workers that they may have to plan for paying back the taxes next year so it won't come as a surprise.

[RJW]

HR 45 Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sales Act of 2009
... this is Obama guncontrol by secrecy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Very Important for you to be aware of a new bill HR 45 introduced into the House.
This is the Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sale Act of 2009.
We just learned yesterday about this on the Peter Boyles radio program.
Even gun shop owners didn't know about this because it is flying under the radar.
To find out about this - go to any government website and type in HR 45 or Google HR 45 Blair Holt Firearm Licensing & Record of Sales Act of 2009. You will get all the information.


Basically this would make it illegal to own a firearm - any rifle with a clip or ANY pistol unless:

.It is registered
.You are fingerprinted
.You supply a current Driver's License
.You supply your Social Security #
.You will submit to a physical & mental evaluation at any time of their choosing
.Each update - change or ownership through private or public sale must be reported and costs $25
- Failure to do so you automatically lose the right to own a firearm and are subject up to a year in jail.

.There is a child provision clause on page 16 section 305 stating a child-access provision. Gun must be locked and inaccessible to any child under 18.

The Government would have the right to come and inspect that you are storing your gun safely away from accessibility to children and fine is punishable for up to 5 yrs. in prison.

If you think this is a joke - go to the website and take your pick of many options to read this..
http://www.opencong ress.org/ bill/111- h45/text


############################################
Googled it and got this

1/6/2009--Introduced.
Blair Holt's Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2009 - Amends the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act to prohibit a person from possessing a firearm unless that person has been issued a firearm license under this Act or a state system certified under this Act and such license has not been invalidated or revoked. Prescribes license application, issuance, and renewal requirements.
Prohibits transferring or receiving a qualifying firearm unless the recipient presents a valid firearms license, the license is verified, and the dealer records a tracking authorization number. Prescribes firearms transfer reporting and record keeping requirements. Directs the Attorney General to establish and maintain a federal record of sale system.
Prohibits: (1) transferring a firearm to any person other than a licensee, unless the transfer is processed through a licensed dealer in accordance with national instant criminal background check system requirements, with exceptions; (2) a licensed manufacturer or dealer from failing to comply with reporting and record keeping requirements of this Act; (3) failing to report the loss or theft of the firearm to the Attorney General within 72 hours; (4) failing to report to the Attorney General an address change within 60 days; or (5) keeping a loaded firearm, or an unloaded firearm and ammunition for the firearm, knowingly or recklessly disregarding the risk that a child is capable of gaining access, if a child uses the firearm and causes death or serious bodily injury.
Prescribes criminal penalties for violations of firearms provisions covered by this Act.
Directs the Attorney General to: (1) establish and maintain a firearm injury information clearinghouse; (2) conduct continuing studies and investigations of firearm-related deaths and injuries; and (3) collect and maintain current production and sales figures of each licensed manufacturer.
Authorizes the Attorney General to certify state firearm licensing or record of sale systems.

This is just a bill. any member of congress can propose a bill. it will go nowhere like a thousand other bad ideas. I am pro gun and pro carry, concealed or otherwise but I think the obama gun control stuff is starting to border on paranoia.

[Mark]

This is just a bill. any member of congress can propose a bill. it will go nowhere like a thousand other bad ideas. I am pro gun and pro carry, concealed or otherwise but I think the obama gun control stuff is starting to border on paranoia.

Unfortunately we have Holder, Obama's stated positions and a Democrat controlled Congress. At the very least we should be extremely vigilant. On the plus side, gun control hasn't been a winning issue for Democrats so legislation will probably have a tough time getting through. That still leaves regulatory agency mischief though.

[crazycrew]

This is really happening in our beloved USA!!! Wake up America, before it is too late!!!

May 19, 2009
< b>Letter From A Dodge Dealer
Letter to the editor

My name is George C. Joseph. I am the sole owner of Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu, a family owned and operated business in Melbourne, Florida. My family bought and paid for this automobile franchise 35 years ago in 1974. I am the second generation to manage this business.
We currently employ 50+ people and before the economic slowdown we employed over 70 local people. We are active in the community and the local chamber of commerce. We deal with several dozen local vendors on a day to day basis and many more during a month. All depend on our business for part of their livelihood. We are financially strong with great respect in the market place and community. We have strong local presence and stability.
I work every day the store is open, nine to ten hours a day. I know most of our customers and all our employees. Sunshine Dodge is my life.
On Thursday, May 14, 2009 I was notified that my Dodge franchise, that we purchased, will be taken away from my family on June 9, 2009 without compensation and given to another dealer at no cost to them. My new vehicle inventory consists of 125 vehicles with a financed balance of 3 million dollars. This inventory becomes impossible to sell with no factory incentives beyond June 9, 2009. Without the Dodge franchise we can no longer sell a new Dodge as "new," nor will we be able to do any warranty service work. Additionally, my Dodge parts inventory, (approximately $300,000.) is virtually worthless without the ability to perform warranty service. There is no offer from Chrysler to buy back the vehicles or parts inventory.
Our facility was recently totally renovated at Chrysler's insistence, incurring a multi-million dollar debt in the form of a mortgage at Sun Trust Bank.
HOW IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CAN THIS HAPPEN?
THIS IS A PRIVATE BUSINESS NOT A GOVERNMENT ENTITY
This is beyon d imagination! My business is being stolen from me through NO FAULT OF OUR OWN. We did NOTHING wrong.
This atrocity will most likely force my family into bankruptcy. This will also cause our 50+ employees to be unemployed. How will they provide for their families? This is a total economic disaster.
HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
I beseech your help, and look forward to your reply. Thank you.
Sincerely,
George C. Joseph
President & Owner
Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu


Taxation without Representation
Tom Mason

[JanSz]

This is very misguided person,
have to be send for ideological adjustments.

He did not spelled out that he support Republicans.

Only Republican inclined dealers are being shut.

Democrat supporting dealers have nothing to fear.

The minor mistake that he is making is assuming that he operated in
FREE MARKET ECONOMY.


This is really happening in our beloved USA!!! Wake up America, before it is too late!!!

May 19, 2009
< b>Letter From A Dodge Dealer
Letter to the editor

My name is George C. Joseph. I am the sole owner of Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu, a family owned and operated business in Melbourne, Florida. My family bought and paid for this automobile franchise 35 years ago in 1974. I am the second generation to manage this business.
We currently employ 50+ people and before the economic slowdown we employed over 70 local people. We are active in the community and the local chamber of commerce. We deal with several dozen local vendors on a day to day basis and many more during a month. All depend on our business for part of their livelihood. We are financially strong with great respect in the market place and community. We have strong local presence and stability.
I work every day the store is open, nine to ten hours a day. I know most of our customers and all our employees. Sunshine Dodge is my life.
On Thursday, May 14, 2009 I was notified that my Dodge franchise, that we purchased, will be taken away from my family on June 9, 2009 without compensation and given to another dealer at no cost to them. My new vehicle inventory consists of 125 vehicles with a financed balance of 3 million dollars. This inventory becomes impossible to sell with no factory incentives beyond June 9, 2009. Without the Dodge franchise we can no longer sell a new Dodge as "new," nor will we be able to do any warranty service work. Additionally, my Dodge parts inventory, (approximately $300,000.) is virtually worthless without the ability to perform warranty service. There is no offer from Chrysler to buy back the vehicles or parts inventory.
Our facility was recently totally renovated at Chrysler's insistence, incurring a multi-million dollar debt in the form of a mortgage at Sun Trust Bank.
HOW IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CAN THIS HAPPEN?
THIS IS A PRIVATE BUSINESS NOT A GOVERNMENT ENTITY
This is beyon d imagination! My business is being stolen from me through NO FAULT OF OUR OWN. We did NOTHING wrong.
This atrocity will most likely force my family into bankruptcy. This will also cause our 50+ employees to be unemployed. How will they provide for their families? This is a total economic disaster.
HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN IN A FREE MARKET ECONOMY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
I beseech your help, and look forward to your reply. Thank you.
Sincerely,
George C. Joseph
President & Owner
Sunshine Dodge-Isuzu


Taxation without Representation
Tom Mason

[biceps72]

kill this thread!!!!!

[GirlyMan]

kill this thread!!!!!

I dunno, I find it kind of bemusing.

[biceps72]

I dunno, I find it kind of bemusing.

same old bullshit imo.

for those of you that don't like how the election turned out; my advice is to save some blood pressure and de-elect certain people in 4 years. I am tired of reading how democrat politics is the root of all problems. That is simply incorrect.
Good grief Obama has been president how long?

Bush was an imbecile for 8 years and wrecked this countries economy but no comments about that moron???

Dumbest president in US history--- see how these threads go???

[GirlyMan]

Bush was an imbecile for 8 years and wrecked this countries economy but no comments about that moron???

Well there is now. :thumbup1:

[Mark]

same old bullshit imo.

for those of you that don't like how the election turned out; my advice is to save some blood pressure and de-elect certain people in 4 years. I am tired of reading how democrat politics is the root of all problems. That is simply incorrect.
Good grief Obama has been president how long?

Bush was an imbecile for 8 years and wrecked this countries economy but no comments about that moron???

Dumbest president in US history--- see how these threads go???

Well, the GOP and Bush in too many cases were trying to be Democrat lite with their spending tendencies, especially Congress. Many conservatives were disillusioned with that which is part of the reason Republicans lost seats.

Can one really argue that as bad as that spending was, it is not exponentially worse and much more damaging with what Obama/Democrats have so far enacted, with promises of more?

Seems to me you need the blood pressure medicine if you're still going to rant about Bush. Unless you were just being silly for effect :cheers2:

[biceps72]

Well, the GOP and Bush in too many cases were trying to be Democrat lite with their spending tendencies, especially Congress. Many conservatives were disillusioned with that which is part of the reason Republicans lost seats.

Can one really argue that as bad as that spending was, it is not exponentially worse and much more damaging with what Obama/Democrats have so far enacted, with promises of more?

Seems to me you need the blood pressure medicine if you're still going to rant about Bush. Unless you were just being silly for effect :cheers2:

trust me, I HATE political threads on boards like this and am on record in my previous posts on this forum stating just that, there are tons of political boards where one can contribute to.

This is a mens health forum and a darn good one imo.

I have seen 2 excellent football forums (one I moderated) go extinct because of a political discussion that turned friends into enemies.

want to discuss religion-- lots of places to do so-- seems to me here is not a good place.

want to discuss politics--lots of places to do so-- seems to me here is not a good place.

Enough said by me.

[GirlyMan]

Many conservatives were disillusioned with that which is part of the reason Republicans lost seats.

Yeah, well this registered Republican (for 28 years now) is becoming increasing disillusioned with a party that continues to kowtow to the idiots on its lunatic fringe. If they keep it up I don't see much of a future for the party.

[JackBauer]

Bush was an imbecile for 8 years and wrecked this countries economy but no comments about that moron???

Dumbest president in US history--- see how these threads go???

LMAO. Good one my friend.

Oh wait, you were actually serious.

Wow.

[testosteroneman]

10 people in a country, lets call it Obama.



10 people in another, we will call Bush.



Each citizen earns 10,000 per year and the

gross domestic product is 100,000 of each country.



The only difference in countries is Bush has 5

people that want to represent the good of the people…

while Obama doesn’t.



So, these good citizens become elected to be

government (they also just happened to be smart

people, i.e. lawyers) :glare:



So in final, Bush now has only 5 people earning

10,000 each and has 5 people taking OUT AT LEAST

10,000 per person. GDP = ZERO!



Which country you want to live in?



The answer is not reduction in tax,

but reduction in PEOPLE not working,

i.e. government employees, direct or

indirect that will make for more to go around.

Get out and put in, NOT TAKE OUT! :banghead:

[Mark]

trust me, I HATE political threads on boards like this and am on record in my previous posts on this forum stating just that, there are tons of political boards where one can contribute to.

This is a mens health forum and a darn good one imo.

I have seen 2 excellent football forums (one I moderated) go extinct because of a political discussion that turned friends into enemies.

want to discuss religion-- lots of places to do so-- seems to me here is not a good place.

want to discuss politics--lots of places to do so-- seems to me here is not a good place.

Enough said by me.

fair enough

[Mark]

Yeah, well this registered Republican (for 28 years now) is becoming increasing disillusioned with a party that continues to kowtow to the idiots on its lunatic fringe. If they keep it up I don't see much of a future for the party.

Who would you consider to be in this "lunatic fringe" and why do you characterize them as such?

[anyman]

Who would you consider to be in this "lunatic fringe" and why do you characterize them as such?

OK, I may be stirring up a hornets nest, but this is the thread to do so, apparently.....

I am fiscally quite conservative, but have watch the Republicans devolve further & further toward the far and often way too religious right. Rather than focusing on what really matters the far right squanders scarce effort & capitol on essentially unsolvable social issues like abortion & gay marriage. Why we waste so much time on non issues puzzles me to no end. Here's my views, so feel free to disregard them: Abortion: Don't have a uterus? Then zip it as you're disqualified. Don't want one/opposed? Fine. Don't have one. Gay marriage" Equally stupid. If they want to be a miserable as many married couples seem to be then give them civil unions, but leave the word "marriage" for hetero couples.

I increasingly fear the far right's preoccupation with religion, as such is contrary to our founding values separating church and state. Want the two tied together? Visit the Taliban or Saudi Arabia & see how well that works out. Religion is and should be a deeply PRIVATE matter. I have my own beliefs and resent greatly someone trying to impose their superstitions on me and others.

The Gov't is here to provide for a common defense & civil framework. It is not intended to be all things to all people as the far left loves. In life some people win & others lose. The Gov'ts job is to level the playing field & make & enforce fair rules. It is not to reward stupidity and laziness. Your company failed because you're too stupid? Tough. Won't work and think others owe you a living? Starve.

There we go. Musta ticked a few out there somewhere! :cheers2:

[JanSz]

OK, I may be stirring up a hornets nest, but this is the thread to do so, apparently.....

I am fiscally quite conservative, but have watch the Republicans devolve further & further toward the far and often way too religious right. Rather than focusing on what really matters the far right squanders scarce effort & capitol on essentially unsolvable social issues like abortion & gay marriage. Why we waste so much time on non issues puzzles me to no end. Here's my views, so feel free to disregard them: Abortion: Don't have a uterus? Then zip it as you're disqualified. Don't want one/opposed? Fine. Don't have one. Gay marriage" Equally stupid. If they want to be a miserable as many married couples seem to be then give them civil unions, but leave the word "marriage" for hetero couples.

I increasingly fear the far right's preoccupation with religion, as such is contrary to our founding values separating church and state. Want the two tied together? Visit the Taliban or Saudi Arabia & see how well that works out. Religion is and should be a deeply PRIVATE matter. I have my own beliefs and resent greatly someone trying to impose their superstitions on me and others.

The Gov't is here to provide for a common defense & civil framework. It is not intended to be all things to all people as the far left loves. In life some people win & others lose. The Gov'ts job is to level the playing field & make & enforce fair rules. It is not to reward stupidity and laziness. Your company failed because you're too stupid? Tough. Won't work and think others owe you a living? Starve.

There we go. Musta ticked a few out there somewhere! :cheers2:

I am trying hard finding with what I would disagree, nothing.

Well, one, the current right and left are practically same, they are both left.

What is your view on energy and environment?

.

[GirlyMan]

Who would you consider to be in this "lunatic fringe" and why do you characterize them as such?

Anyone who blathers ideological inflammatory rhetoric without presenting reasoned arguments.

[crazycrew]

Anyone who blathers ideological inflammatory rhetoric without presenting reasoned arguments.

Politicians?????:patriot:

[anyman]

I am trying hard finding with what I would disagree, nothing.

Well, one, the current right and left are practically same, they are both left.

What is your view on energy and environment?

.

Energy: Need to be far more self reliant & stop depending on people/countries who really don't like us or we them. Need to develop safe and renewable alternatives to fossil fuels, since such aren't being produced much in nature. Nuclear, solar, wind and more are needed.

Environment: Most animals know not to crap where they eat. Except humans. We seem too willing to destroy our environment. People say we have to "save the planet". The planet will do just fine. If we screw things up enough the planet will kick us off. Best to steward and preserve where we live, lest we wreck where we live.

[Mark]

OK, I may be stirring up a hornets nest, but this is the thread to do so, apparently.....

I am fiscally quite conservative, but have watch the Republicans devolve further & further toward the far and often way too religious right. Rather than focusing on what really matters the far right squanders scarce effort & capitol on essentially unsolvable social issues like abortion & gay marriage. Why we waste so much time on non issues puzzles me to no end. Here's my views, so feel free to disregard them: Abortion: Don't have a uterus? Then zip it as you're disqualified. Don't want one/opposed? Fine. Don't have one. Gay marriage" Equally stupid. If they want to be a miserable as many married couples seem to be then give them civil unions, but leave the word "marriage" for hetero couples.

I increasingly fear the far right's preoccupation with religion, as such is contrary to our founding values separating church and state. Want the two tied together? Visit the Taliban or Saudi Arabia & see how well that works out. Religion is and should be a deeply PRIVATE matter. I have my own beliefs and resent greatly someone trying to impose their superstitions on me and others.

The Gov't is here to provide for a common defense & civil framework. It is not intended to be all things to all people as the far left loves. In life some people win & others lose. The Gov'ts job is to level the playing field & make & enforce fair rules. It is not to reward stupidity and laziness. Your company failed because you're too stupid? Tough. Won't work and think others owe you a living? Starve.

There we go. Musta ticked a few out there somewhere! :cheers2:

Except that abortion can be argued from secualar premises and one can do much the same with gay marriage. Simply because others choose to argue from their religious views does not mean the issue is merely a religious edict.

Abortion involves how we define human life. I don't see how one can argue that it is unimportant or a non-issue.

Abortion: Don't have a uterus? Then zip it as you're disqualified. Don't want one/opposed? Fine. Don't have one.

That's a bit silly. By that reasoning Roe v Wade should never have been taken up by the Supreme Court in the first place, though there are constituional reasons for them not taking it up. People are capable of reasoned argument and decisions on issues despite not having this or that plumbing or whatever other convenient criteria one tries to throw out there as an a priori means of stifling public debate. Also since abortion involves how we define human life and the responsibilty of society towards that, it does affect all of us.

IMO, another problem with the issue of abortion is conflating whether or not abortion is right/wrong with how to implement the position in society. This happens on both sides of the issue but my beef is mostly with those on the prolife side, with the perfect defeating the good quite often.

That being said, I'm pretty sure that the mainstream prolife groups which I think are also the largest, do not support legislating punishment against the mother, we should love them both is the refrain from what I can remember.

As for gay marriage, I don't agree with it, but then I don't see having one's chosen relationship being recognized as a right for anyone, hetero or whatever, as long as they are not prevented from associating in the manner they choose. My biggest issue is with judges forcing this on society against the will of the people. If we achieve civil unions or even gay marriage by way of legislatures, so be it.

You seem to be in the libertarian side of things which is fine, I lean a bit libertarian as well. I pretty much agree with your last paragraph.

As for such issues being losing matters for the GOP, if they would point out Kelo and the travesty that it was and simply note that "conservative" justices are more likely to vote against such foolishness, they could make some headway. Regarding the overturning of Roe V Wade, that doesn't make abortion illegal. It simply throws it back to the states. Some will restrict, others will liberalize even more in response. Federalism allows the most satisfying of the diversity of views on issues.

The GOP really needs to learn how to argue it's positions rather than just rely on bumper stickers :/

That and not get stupid with spending, conceding premises and the language, ignoring corruption etc.

Perhaps they will show us they've learned these lessons. But the GOP is known as the stupid party for a reason :/

Sorry I got wordy there.

Almost forgot the beer!

:cheers2:

I like Guiness! :D

[JanSz]

Energy: Need to be far more self reliant & stop depending on people/countries who really don't like us or we them. Need to develop safe and renewable alternatives to fossil fuels, since such aren't being produced much in nature. Nuclear, solar, wind and more are needed.

Environment: Most animals know not to crap where they eat. Except humans. We seem too willing to destroy our environment. People say we have to "save the planet". The planet will do just fine. If we screw things up enough the planet will kick us off. Best to steward and preserve where we live, lest we wreck where we live.

I am for nuclear energy.
We need 700 new nuclear power plants, yesterday.
Technology is already avalilable for a very long time.
That would allow cheap power, we probably could get rid of electric power meters.
We need to discard nuclear fuel policy started by prez Carter and follow French model. We would not have to worry then about large amounts of spend nuclear fuel.

We should not burn oil, cars should be either electric with batteries or fuel-cels. Oil should be used only for chemicals and plastics. Same with coal.

All the polution produced by coal fired plants and cars that some (needlesly)worry about can be eliminated

One could say that cars could be powered by Nuclear power plants.
Electric energy from Nuclear Power plants can be used to charge batteries or produce hydrogen used in fuel-cells.

About polution from cars and coal plants try to compare that to emission from one active volcano.

Wind and solar power as a grid power is a joke and envirinmemtal polution.
Takes lots of space, produces insignificant amount of power.
But it is a good source of power for satelites and remote instrumentation .


,,

[anyman]

You say "Abortion involves how we define human life. I don't see how one can argue that it is unimportant or a non-issue." in response to my comment "Abortion: Don't have a uterus? Then zip it as you're disqualified. Don't want one/opposed? Fine. Don't have one."

My point is that is issue is unsolvable. No amount of bickering over the last 35+ years has done much. The matter is purely personal and should not waste the legislative time & effort it has. A world full of problems and pressing issues and we spend countless amounts of time and effort on a non issue. Me personally? Doubt I could have one were I female, even though I am not a religious person, at least not as defined by contemporary religious superstitions. I am puzzled when men weigh in as they are, IMO, inherently disqualified. The issue is important to individual persons, but should not occupy so prominent a place in politics, the judiciary and government.

Interesting logic on Roe. I've read the case several times some years ago back in school and am troubled at the legal framework underpinning it, even though I support the outcome of individual choice. Where did they get the "penumbra" of rights theory? It seems a results oriented decision and at times contrived.

Given the pressing issues of economics, terrorism, overpopulation, diminishing energy sources and more I'd like to see peoples' time & effort directed towards more productive directions. To me those most preoccupied with it typify the simplistic and overly religious take on life that continue to hold back progress to this day. Few societies based on or overly preoccupied with religion attain much. Just look at the Taliban or Inquisition era Christianity, for example. Religion can be a force for good, but only in moderation and, especially, if kept to oneself. I don't in the least understand how and why so many people seek a return to the dark ages of superstition and fear.

Regardless of one's position on abortion, overpopulation remains a real and pressing problem. The earth simply cannot sustain an ever growing human population. History teaches us that overpopulation can and will result in terrible conflict and competition for dwindling resources. Such is inevitable. If I had my way, we'd see human population level out at around 2-3 billion. No way to get there now, of course, unless we implemented drastic family planning measures. In the end, though, I fear nature will do for us what we lack the will or brains to do.

Gay marriage? Don't get the whole gay issue. As Sam Kinison once said, how does one man find true love in another man's hairy butt? But, I am convinced those of that type are largely born that way, so I chose to leave them alone. Those I have known have largely been decent people.

Interesting discussion. Let's hope the more fundamentalist among us don't derail it. :thumbup:

[00slotiv]

OK, I may be stirring up a hornets nest, but this is the thread to do so, apparently.....

I am fiscally quite conservative, but have watch the Republicans devolve further & further toward the far and often way too religious right. Rather than focusing on what really matters the far right squanders scarce effort & capitol on essentially unsolvable social issues like abortion & gay marriage. Why we waste so much time on non issues puzzles me to no end. Here's my views, so feel free to disregard them: Abortion: Don't have a uterus? Then zip it as you're disqualified. Don't want one/opposed? Fine. Don't have one. Gay marriage" Equally stupid. If they want to be a miserable as many married couples seem to be then give them civil unions, but leave the word "marriage" for hetero couples.

I increasingly fear the far right's preoccupation with religion, as such is contrary to our founding values separating church and state. Want the two tied together? Visit the Taliban or Saudi Arabia & see how well that works out. Religion is and should be a deeply PRIVATE matter. I have my own beliefs and resent greatly someone trying to impose their superstitions on me and others.

The Gov't is here to provide for a common defense & civil framework. It is not intended to be all things to all people as the far left loves. In life some people win & others lose. The Gov'ts job is to level the playing field & make & enforce fair rules. It is not to reward stupidity and laziness. Your company failed because you're too stupid? Tough. Won't work and think others owe you a living? Starve.

There we go. Musta ticked a few out there somewhere! :cheers2:

Just saw this thread and want to get into the hornet's nest.

Warning: take your blood pressure medication now if you read all of this.

Butchering a million and a half babies a year against their will to me is the most important issue of our day. No other issue even belongs in the same universe.

Anyamn, I get the impression in the second comment that you think men shouldn't have a say in whether their own or anyone else's own flesh and blood should be spared from having the abortionist burn it to death or rip it apart. If that is not what you meant you don't need to read the rest of this. I just know that a lot of people think that way.

People shouldn't be excluded from decision making based on gender. Planned Parenthood certainly doesn't exclude influencial pro abortion men from helping their cause, rather they seek it out.

In fact, They never objected to the fact that the 1973 Supreme Court had no right to be involved in the Roe v. Wade decision even though every member of that court was male.

When you consider the overwhelming majority of abortionists are men, that many times the escorts at the clinic are men, and that Planned Parenthood profits from all the sexually irresponsible men who coerce women into abortions, pro-abortionists covet men's opinions.

As long as men put women in crisis pregnancy situations, build political careers off women in crisis pregnancy situations and make money off of them, their involvement with pro-abortion work is encouraged.

Then again, women oppose abortion at a higher rate than men and are more active in the pro life community than men are in attempting to end it so there is another reason why men's opinions are vital to PPs continued "success".

There are women who have had their uterus removed, women that are post-menopausal, some that just can't conceive, and there are lesbian women who won't be having babies. PP surely covets their views if they are in agreement with theirs.

Maybe only fertile women of childbearing age who are not practicing birth control should be allowed to having an opinion about abortion?

A man has the responsibility to speak out when another father's child is being slaughtered (sorry but that is just the plain truth) by abortion. If you have seen pictures or video of aborted babies as I have, I think you would agree. Those pictures wouldn't survive a minute on this board. If abortion is a non-issue, people shouldn't loathe the pictures and abortion should be celebrated and even increased, the latter is something our president is bent on doing despite saying otherwise.

Planned Parenthood has based their whole strategy around preventing men and women from using their minds, from thinking through this issue, that is why the ridiculous "pro-choice" mantra was adopted. They are only pro-choice when it comes to abortion.

They are against my choice to beat them up, cut in front of them, steal from them, not pay my taxes, etc...This isn't about choice at all.

Thinking rationally about this issue is what some pro-lifers are doing and then acting accordingly. Our spineless government looks the other way while one human being kills another. That is a big reason we are in the mess we are in today.

Shoot, let's just snuff the infants and toddlers out while we are at it? They cramp our style too. What's twenty months or so anyway? Been on the news a lot lately. We just don't care about anyone's life anymore but ours.

Bob

[ptm82379]

My feelings would not be hurt if this country reverted to its condition of 70-100 years ago and it may very well happen. Hell lets really seperate the men from the boys. Lets see who could live without the internet and iphones. Who can survive on what they grow or kill. We might as well take it to extremes while we are on the subject.

And Bob you are right all people care about is themselves, their poor little existance, and what they can attain while they are here on earth. People are F***ed up plain and simple.

[GirlyMan]

Butchering a million and a half babies a year against their will to me is the most important issue of our day. No other issue even belongs in the same universe. ...

I often wonder what it would be like to possess such certainty and purpose. But it's looking more and more like it's gonna elude me.

Being and Nothingness (http://books.google.com/books?id=X6RtpboH478C&dq=being+and+nothingness+sartre&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=owVAuanCjU&sig=UB9jWA7B5vPJri_EX66fUYRIxWo&hl=en&ei=WiUjSrWnOaWmNbjoyZ0J&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#PPP1,M1)

After watching my wife give birth 4 times (avg. labor ~12 hours) and suffer successively worse post-partum depression each time, she asked me "I can't do this again, do you have a problem with tubal ligation?" The only appropriate response I could come up with was, "Honey, that is entirely up to you." If she had asked about abortion, my response would have been the same.

[anyman]

OK, Bob--where to start. Remember, I am discussing this openly and not merely in an attempt to inflame or worse. I view it as the exchange of viewpoints & ideas. This is looooong, so bear with me. Again, I do not post this to mindlessly piss people off, but to show where others are coming from.

You say:

"Except that abortion can be argued from secular premises and one can do much the same with gay marriage. Simply because others choose to argue from their religious views does not mean the issue is merely a religious edict."

Very few do this. Usually comes from the more religious among us, which IMO automatically negates much of their arguments since religion is, or should be personal. What you argue is, in essence, "Malum in se" (that which is inherently wrong) vs. "Malum prohibitum" (that which is wrong simply because someone decided to prohibit it). Such is a valid argument, although I personally do not reach the same conclusion. I do not see a tiny cluster of cells at a few weeks as "human". But, for me, the situation reverses as time passes. The closer it comes to viable outside the womb without modern medicine the less I like it. I am, on purely personal grounds, vehemently opposed to late term abortions.

This of course brings us to your primary points:

"...since abortion involves how we define human life and the responsibilty of society towards that, it does affect all of us."... "Shoot, let's just snuff the infants and toddlers out while we are at it? They cramp our style too. What's twenty months or so anyway? Been on the news a lot lately. We just don't care about anyone's life anymore but ours".... "A man has the responsibility to speak out when another father's child is being slaughtered (sorry but that is just the plain truth) by abortion"

This is where our views diverge. I do not view a zygote as "human life" nor the EARLY termination of a pregnancy as "slaughter". A zygote has the potential for human life, but no more. And, no, I do not advocate killing of people. Many on the prolife side tend to argue that if one is in favor of choice one must also be a closet murderer. Um....no. Controlling one's family size long before birth is very, very different from "snuffing" infants. To even so argue vastly cheapens one's argument. My views stem not from selfish desires or "not caring about anyone's life but (my own)", but from a hard, dispassionate and realistic assessment at the effects of unwanted children and unwanted population growth.

My support of choice is purely practical. Unwanted children are a huge and growing problem as is rampant overpopulation. No community, no nation, no habitat and no planet can see unrestrained population growth. Simple not possible under any set of circumstances. Do I wish we had 100% reliable contraception or, better yet, a biological ability to "turn off" fertility? Absolutely. But, that same failure in design, which is sorta like the failures in design many of us, me included, suffer will not be overcome soon. I do not see that the millions of unwanted pregnancies would be to our or their betterment, harsh as this may sound. Reality is sometimes that way. Put too many organisms of any kind in a resource limited environment and watch things fall apart. We'd like to think that we humans are different. We aren't. In my view, I take the more expansive view and look years ahead at what would happen should we force the unwilling to give birth. So deeply a personal decision is why I believe nobody but the pregnant woman has a voice--even the father. Biology says that woman carry babies and to them, IMO, goes the choice. Some may view this as harsh or unfair. I see it as reality.


I do not follow you when you say this:

"Butchering a million and a half babies a year against their will to me is the most important issue of our day. No other issue even belongs in the same universe."

This statement presumes terminating an EARLY pregnancy is "butchering". I do not agree with this, and wonder at the real world implications if we as a species failed to control our population. I see a complete collapse of society, war, famine and worse. Study history or even basic biology and see what happens when a given ecosystem can no longer support unrestrained population growth. Ever see what has happened and is happening in Africa? Rather ugly. Starvation is an ugly way to die.

However, what i really don't follow is how so deeply personal a matter can be the "most important issue of our day". I dunno about you, but watching my nation's economy implode and millions lose their jobs and thus unable to support the children they already have, much less MORE mouths to feed, not to mention an ascendant China, virulent radical Islam, nuclear armed North Korea and more are too my far more pressing issues. I personally know of people who unwittingly got pregnant at 15 or so and terminated the pregnancies. No, I don't like this and don't like that kids that young were having sex, but it happened. What was worse? a termination at 6-8 weeks or bringing an unwanted child to an impossibly young 15 year old "couple" wholly unprepared for properly rearing a child? 3 lives likely would have been irrevocably ruined. Neither "parent", if a 15 year old girl can be so called would ever have finished school or been physically/mentally capable of raising a child. The likely outcome would have been 'disaster'. I just don't see how forcing a stupid girl to term would be a better outcome. I also know older people who, despite all realistic precautions. got pregnant when there was no realistic way to provide for the child due to job loss, economic duress and more. What is worst? Termination or welfare? I keep coming back to "personal choice" as the best option.


Well, there you go. I don't view abortion as a means of birth control and doubt I could have one were I a female. But, I nonetheless view it as purely personal and not something the state or government has a place in deciding. When I label it a "non issue", I do so as a function of governmental interest. I don't see so personal a decision as being the government's or anyone else's business. Given the plethora of issues all around me and more I want my government focused on protecting me from some mullah with a nuke or economic collapse and not telling some 14 year old girl that she must bear a foolish mistake to term.

Thanks for listening to my manifesto of sorts. Much to say and wanted to explain in depth to show my intent to discuss and compare as opposed to simply stirring up crap!:thumbup:

[00slotiv]

Anyman, thank you for calmly expounding on your views. I plan on trying to do the same later but I have to get to physical therapy and other things but want to get back to you on this when I get some time.

Before I do I just want to say that I think Mark made the comment below not me.

"Except that abortion can be argued from secular premises and one can do much the same with gay marriage. Simply because others choose to argue from their religious views does not mean the issue is merely a religious edict."

Bob

[00slotiv]

Anyman, I apologize for deleting a lot of your comments but I went over the word limit and didn't want to lose the whole thing as has happened before. I also don't know how to delete the bolding of my comments at the end.

This of course brings us to your primary points:

"...since abortion involves how we define human life and the responsibilty of society towards that, it does affect all of us."... "Shoot, let's just snuff the infants and toddlers out while we are at it? They cramp our style too. What's twenty months or so anyway? Been on the news a lot lately. We just don't care about anyone's life anymore but ours".... "A man has the responsibility to speak out when another father's child is being slaughtered (sorry but that is just the plain truth) by abortion"

This is where our views diverge. I do not view a zygote as "human life" nor the EARLY termination of a pregnancy as "slaughter". A zygote has the potential for human life, but no more. And, no, I do not advocate killing of people. Many on the prolife side tend to argue that if one is in favor of choice one must also be a closet murderer. Um....no. Controlling one's family size long before birth is very, very different from "snuffing" infants. To even so argue vastly cheapens one's argument. My views stem not from selfish desires or "not caring about anyone's life but (my own)", but from a hard, dispassionate and realistic assessment at the effects of unwanted children and unwanted population growth.

Life has to have begun at some stage and modern medical, scientific and biology books say that point is conception. Any point beyond that would be arbitrary and useles.

Many say they don't know when life begins. Does that mean they think it might begin at 2, 5, 20, 40 or some other age? Or maybe when speech begins. If there is any uncertainty about whether what is in the womb is alive or not, that is all the more reason not to abort.

That is like imploding a building before making absolutely sure there is no one in it still.

Since I believe abortion at any stage in the womb is killing, I am unable to differentiate between that and the killing of infants or toddlers.

We have one mother saying she has a living child inside her and another mother, having conceived at the same time, saying life doesn't begin until birth. It is ludicrous to think each mother can be right, but that is our society.

When was the last time you heard a woman say "My blob of cells just hiccupped!" "How is your product of conception doing?" No, we term it by our intent to let it live or not.

It makes sense to me that after conception, actual life exists, not potential life. Other than conception, no one could prove it begins at some later time.

In my dictionary, one of the definitions of zygote is -The individual developing from such a cell (union of two gametes). It is not a pro-life dictionary.

This is important so you know where I am coming from. I agree with that definition because only something that is alive could develop into anything.

How is it possible for two human parents to create a separate being that is not human but later becomes one?

Real quick here, there are only four ways to differentiate between what is in the womb and you, me and anyone else. Four distinctions, but no difference in essence.

Size (so small it doesn't look human)-I am larger than Wise Guy, but that doesn't make him not alive. Little wonder why PP is frantically trying to prevent sonograms as even small children naturally call them babies.

Level of development-The developmental process continues after birth. A toddler is more developed than an infant, but the infant is still human. An adolescent is more developed than a toddler. An adult is more developed than his children. I read awhile ago that our brains continue to develop into our 40s, well, except for mine maybe.

Environment-Where one is has no bearing on who one is.

Degree of dependency (on the mother)-Some of us are dependent on insulin, pace makers, kidney dialysis, oxygen and the like, and don't lose our human identity.

Wanted/unwanted children. There are way more parents wanting to adopt than there are abortions each year so there are a lot of victims of abortion who would be wanted by somebody. The abortion industry says -"Every child a wanted child". Hmmm. So they just get rid of the unwanted ones. Is that a sound way to do things?

Many don't want the poor, the criminal, the homeless either, but we don't just take their life because they are unwanted and a drain on society. Would make more sense to kill them to cure some of society's ills than innocent children.

To help with overpopulation we could set a limit on life span- mandatory euthenasia at a pre-determined age. A lot of money could be saved by not researching ways to prolong life.

If you are thinking that overpopulation leads to under fed, starving children, that isn't likely a problem in our country, like it might be in others, so aborting our children won't reduce problems in Ethiopia.

I don't know enough about the population situation in other countries but taking the life of human beings, albeit in the early stages, doesn't seem to me like a good way to solve any problems. I cannot give you any solutions as that is definitely outside my pay grade.

I do not follow you when you say this:

"Butchering a million and a half babies a year against their will to me is the most important issue of our day. No other issue even belongs in the same universe."

This statement presumes terminating an EARLY pregnancy is "butchering". I do not agree with this, and wonder at the real world implications if we as a species failed to control our population.

[B]I commend you for not criticizing me for my choice of words Anyman, I just feel compelled to be as graphic as I think it warrants. I have seen pictures of aborted fetuses that look like someone met a grenade. I"ve seen the worst of the pictures and it is gruesome. Heads are yanked off, limbs sucked off a little body, and fetuses are burned to death at a stage they are known to be able to feel pain.

You may feel that an abortion at 36 weeks or even after the baby "slips out" is barbaric (Obama is okay with it-seriously), but since I believe life begins at conception and can't reasonable be thought to start anywhere else, I have to see even an early (first trimester) abortion as heinous.
I see a complete collapse of society, war, famine and worse. Study history or even basic biology and see what happens when a given ecosystem can no longer support unrestrained population growth. Ever see what has happened and is happening in Africa? Rather ugly. Starvation is an ugly way to die.

What is even worse is to have the abortionist's tools of death looking to cut you apart, suck you apart or burn you to death or make you not be able to breath. We should ask the aborted children to compare the ugliness of different kinds of death.

Again, I feel compassion for those starving in Africa, they have seemingly little chance to survive. It is absolutely terrible. But to be consistent with my thinking I have to feel that there is no difference between aborting the "unwanted" pre-born and just terminating the excessive population that
is older. I wish I were smart enough to know what to do about situations like Africa.

However, what i really don't follow is how so deeply personal a matter can be the "most important issue of our day". I dunno about you, but watching my nation's economy implode and millions lose their jobs and thus unable to support the children they already have, much less MORE mouths to feed, not to mention an ascendant China, virulent radical Islam, nuclear armed North Korea and more are too my far more pressing issues.

I agree that these are very important issues Anyman. I am trying to express that life itself is so intrinsically valuable that to be destroying it trumps any other important issues. That life is that meaningful.

Yes, even "Doctor" George Tiller who was gunned down yesterday with his "great health care to women", and even mister Hitler, the mass murder in Wichita awhile back, Dahmer, the helter skelter guy whose name I can't remember. All are intrinsically as valuable as much as anyone else. Doesn't mean I think some should avoid the death penalty but that everyone's life is valuable enough that it deserves to be preserved unless they violate laws that would set them up to forfeit their life for the sake of justice.

I also know older people who, despite all realistic precautions. got pregnant when there was no realistic way to provide for the child due to job loss, economic duress and more. What is worst? Termination or welfare? I keep coming back to "personal choice" as the best option.

Again, thanks for being honest and clear. I like responding to that. From my vantage point, ending the life of a child is never the right answer. Adoption is an option many times and sometimes situations can turn out better than we thought, but I think ending the life of an innocent child is a selfish resolution that unfortunately will be on the conscience of the parents for the rest of their lives.

I would be all for the unborn child stating thier "personal choice" in the matter since I believe they are human from conception on. If someone truly valued life, they would take the welfare over the abortion, in my opinion.

Thanks for listening to my manifesto of sorts. Much to say and wanted to explain in depth to show my intent to discuss and compare as opposed to simply stirring up crap!:thumbup: [/QUOTE]

Thank you for elaborating your opinion Anyman, you did it well. I have enjoyed discussing this with you and hope I haven't crossed any lines to make my points.

Bob

[Wise Guy]

My feelings would not be hurt if this country reverted to its condition of 70-100 years ago and it may very well happen. Hell lets really seperate the men from the boys.

Hmmmmm....

5 months ago I got a nasty infected cyst on my back and developed a nasty staff infection. I got a fever, rashes, and it actually got scary enough that I had to go to the E.R

The cyst grew to over 5 inches before the finally had to intervene and remove it via surgery

Now remember I'm a healthy 20-something dude, full of vigor and energy.

I asked the Dr for curiosity sake, because I think of such things, that what would happen if it were not for modern medicine.

He said as early as 80 years ago, this would have probably killed me.

I hope we never have to go back.

I like modern medicine :thumbup:

Has little to do with separating men or boys or whatever you wanna call it.

Point being, you can be young, strong and full of hormones like me, and POOF, life can just throw a sh!t storm of a lightening bolt out of the sky, and really f up your world.

There is much more "chance" and luck going on than anything

Oh, and I'm pro-life too.:beatdeadhorse5:

My feeling on that are this.

It really all hit me awhile ago when I was watching the movie "Braveheart"

I was thinking to myself, "What a bunch of crazy animals these people are!"

"We are so much more civilized and intelligent than they are! My how far we have come"

Then i thought to myself.

500 years from know, futuristic civilizations will look back on this time period, and look in disdain at our wars, but probably even more so on abortion.

"What animals those prehistoric people must have been....Killing children?"

[ptm82379]

Point Taken

[testosteroneman]

Yes the future seems to be directed by everything but the truth when it comes to...power people. (federal reserve government etc.)

Swedish Foreign Minister and former Prime Minister, Carl Bildt, ―Made a speech advocating turning the World Health Organization into a world department of health, advocating turning the IMF into a world department of treasury, both of course under the auspices of the United Nations. Further, Tucker reported that, ―Treasury Sec-retary Geithner and Carl Bildt touted a shorter recession not a 10-year recession ... partly because a 10 year recession would damage Bilderberg industrialists themselves, as much as they want to have a global department of labour and a global department of treasury, they still like making money and such a long recession would cost them big bucks industri-ally because nobody is buying their toys ….the tilt is towards keeping it short.

Bloomberg news ran a story today that reveals the Obama Administration plans to give even more power to the Federal Reserve.

Huh?

The same group that let this financial mess occur under their watch is now going to be given even more power?

How crazy is that?

I'm not the only one screaming for this nonsense to stop.

The former Chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission, Richard Breeden, told lawmakers in March. "Rather than simply calling for more authority for people who didn't use the authority they already had, we need to reexamine why our regulators missed so many of the risks staring them in the face.

That's putting it politely.

The Fed has failed. They should be fired, not given additional responsibilities. That's they way I see it.

[GirlyMan]

The Fed has failed. They should be fired, not given additional responsibilities. That's they way I see it.

And now for something completely different.

Cramer on Bernanke (http://nymag.com/news/businessfinance/bottomline/57177/)

[Wise Guy]

So Long Sara! Don't let the door hit you in the rear on the way out :patriot:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/03/AR2009070301738.html?wprss=rss_politics

Ahem, I know the good Dr likes her, but I won't be shedding a tear :Angel_anim:

[Wise Guy]

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/03/...arena-scandal/

Ruh Roh, Shaggy.

[Wise Guy]

LOL, my favorite crazy lady wants to sue....wait for it.....The Internet!

http://wonkette.com/409650/insane-sarah-palin-late-at-night-on-july-4-threatens-to-sue-entire-internet-via-twitter

A little exert

"So, after crazily quitting her elected position as governor of Alaska, via an alarming backyard last-minute press conference void of any explanation , at the classic 4 p.m. hour of the Friday-Holiday news dump, Sarah Palin is now twatting on the twitter about how her Anchorage attorneys are going to SUE THE AMERICAN MEDIA, for saying “WTF?”

Honestly, this is what Sarah Palin twatted on Saturday Night, July 4th, Independence Day, in America."

[Bulldog]

LOL, my favorite crazy lady wants to sue....wait for it.....The Internet!

http://wonkette.com/409650/insane-sarah-palin-late-at-night-on-july-4-threatens-to-sue-entire-internet-via-twitter

A little exert

"So, after crazily quitting her elected position as governor of Alaska, via an alarming backyard last-minute press conference void of any explanation , at the classic 4 p.m. hour of the Friday-Holiday news dump, Sarah Palin is now twatting on the twitter about how her Anchorage attorneys are going to SUE THE AMERICAN MEDIA, for saying “WTF?”

Honestly, this is what Sarah Palin twatted on Saturday Night, July 4th, Independence Day, in America."

You really read that site? Nothing like an unbiased opinion eh? :thumbdown:

Sorry to say but she is right on most of the points she has ever made. No one can deny the great changes she helped make happen in Alaska. This country is falling apart and Obama and his followers are going to bring this great country to it's knees.

[Wise Guy]

You really read that site? Nothing like an unbiased opinion eh? :thumbdown:

Sorry to say but she is right on most of the points she has ever made. No one can deny the great changes she helped make happen in Alaska. This country is falling apart and Obama and his followers are going to bring this great country to it's knees.

Hey, she writes and does, I report.

Just following her. I find her fascinating. I also find it frightening that she almost became second in command of this country.

Hey, at least the socialist was head of his class at Harvard Law.

You cannot make this stuff up its so good.

[Bulldog]

Hey, she writes and does, I report.

Just following her. I find her fascinating. I also find it frightening that she almost became second in command of this country.

Hey, at least the socialist was head of his class at Harvard Law.

You cannot make this stuff up its so good.

Sorry but that means nothing to me and is most likely the reason he is the way he is.

[Bulldog]

Hey, she writes and does, I report.

Just following her. I find her fascinating. I also find it frightening that she almost became second in command of this country.

Hey, at least the socialist was head of his class at Harvard Law.

You cannot make this stuff up its so good.

I find it much more frightening that Obama and Biden are numbers one and two in command.

[snook]

Reading that blather will actually make you less wise. :ack2:

[gman]

I enjoyed fantasizing about Palin, but that's about it. Hottest woman her age I think I have ever seen. Can't imagine her taking the reigns if McCain had passed away in office. Truly frightening to think about.

Despite that, I voted for McCain!

[Wise Guy]

I enjoyed fantasizing about Palin, but that's about it. Hottest woman her age I think I have ever seen. Can't imagine her taking the reigns if McCain had passed away in office. Truly frightening to think about.

Despite that, I voted for McCain!

Agreed. I voted for Ron Paul, and I would say that while I'm a constitutionalists first and foremost, I probably lean slightly to the right.

I truly feel that there is no more powerful metaphor and symbol for the decline in the Republican Party than to see Rep's back her.

To me, a representation of everything that they have become.

Silly, but at least entertaining.

[snook]

Agreed. I voted for Ron Paul, and I would say that while I'm a constitutionalists first and foremost, I probably lean slightly to the right.

I truly feel that there is no more powerful metaphor and symbol for the decline in the Republican Party than to see Rep's back her.

To me, a representation of everything that they have become.

Silly, but at least entertaining.

With that said, you must be having some serious heartache over the recent expansion and self-promotion of the federal government - which Gov. Palin campaigned against.

[gman]

please, GOP is just as bloated as the Dems. Borrow and spend vs Tax and spend.

[snook]

please, GOP is just as bloated as the Dems. Borrow and spend vs Tax and spend.

I can't disagree too much. The GOP politicians currently installed are pretty far away from the principles of conservatism. The current Democrat contingent is not from this universe. That I am sure.

It seems they are coming up with a new government program each day.

At least they have been beaten back on their plan to tax employer provided health insurance.

Unfortunately, the House Majority Leader and Vice President (both Democrats) both came out this morning and said we need yet another stimulus package. Look it up...:rant:

[Bulldog]

Still collecting. I've no doubt pissed off some by noting my perception that organized religion is (to me) pretty much primitive superstition. This said, I do listen to others in my personal search for truth and something that resonates with me. The often inherently inconsistent & outright illogical nature of most religions turns me off. No doubt ancient Greeks, etc just as firmly believed as many today do. Who's to say they weren't right? Will people 2K years from now laugh at contemporary religions as we do Egyptian gods/

As I age, I search for something to believe in and meaning, especially as I see the frailty and ephemeral nature of life. What we regard as old is but the tiniest blip on a cosmic scale. Man has been around for what, a few hundred thousand years? Nothing at all. How many of us will be remembered 10 years after we die, much less several hundred years or more? Ever see "Life after people" on the history channel? Talk about us lacking a lasting footprint! I crack up about those desirous of "saving the planet". LOL! The planet will do just fine & will, in time, kick us off without looking back.

I've come to find some meaning in my family and in non stop learning in an effort to acquire greater enlightenment.

For me, the journey appears to be my destiny. I keep hoping I'll find a belief system that feels right, but have yet to do so. That's why I look around & try to keep an open mind. Never know what one might find.

I'm a Christian and I'm not pissed off at all by your statements or beliefs. But then again I don't view Christianity as a "religion" but more as a "relationship". I just wish you luck in your search for greater "enlightenment". My search on the other hand is complete.

[JanSz]

I'm a Christian and I'm not pissed off at all by your statements or beliefs. But then again I don't view Christianity as a "religion" but more as a "relationship". I just wish you luck in your search for greater "enlightenment". My search on the other hand is complete.

I am Catholic.

25 years ago we build small church, about 250 families.
It is 500' from my house.
After 15 years church was enlarged due to high attendance and overall success.
All this time the church was ran by Father Martin.
You can imagine, everybody and his brother loves Father Martin.
Management of numerous programs is well established and runs now practically on it own.
Faher Martin is to retire within less than 2 years.
Hi hopes (or was promissed) one room that he hi was living in as his retirement flat.
Comes new bishop of Patterson.
Something did not clicked properly.
Father Martin is "promoted" and is to manage 5x larger parish,
job for much younger person.

No amount of begging and letter writting helps.
Father Martin have no place to retire to.

My wife's aunt is a nun.
Was a professor at Catholic university.
Latter worked for Pope John Paul II (Wojtyla)
Now retired.
When asked for opinion, offered good prayer.
Church is not a democracy.
.....

[gman]

I can respect your POV, you sound like a real conservative. I just have to laugh when GOP people claim to be conservative!

Anyway, back to health care, has anyone heard of CInergy Health? It is pretty cheap and seems to be too good to be true.

http://www.cinergyhealth.com/plan_comp_hi.asp?state=6&image.x=33&image.y=20

[Wise Guy]

Will people 2K years from now laugh at contemporary religions as we do Egyptian gods/

.

There is nothing I am more convinced of that stories of Noah's arc being told by the same people who split the atom will be looked at with bewilderment, puzzle, and astonishment by people in the future.

[Wise Guy]

The level of stupidity has hit new all time lows

"Palin Claimed Dinosaurs And People Coexisted"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/28/palin-claimed-dinosaurs-a_n_130012.html

LOL Snook, you make this too easy for me

Soon after Sarah Palin was elected mayor of the foothill town of Wasilla, Alaska, she startled a local music teacher by insisting in casual conversation that men and dinosaurs coexisted on an Earth created 6,000 years ago -- about 65 million years after scientists say most dinosaurs became extinct -- the teacher said.


After conducting a college band and watching Palin deliver a commencement address to a small group of home-schooled students in June 1997, Wasilla resident Philip Munger said, he asked the young mayor about her religious beliefs.

Palin told him that "dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time," Munger said. When he asked her about prehistoric fossils and tracks dating back millions of years, Palin said "she had seen pictures of human footprints inside the tracks," recalled Munger, who teaches music at the University of Alaska in Anchorage and has regularly criticized Palin in recent years on his liberal political blog, called Progressive Alaska.

The idea of a "young Earth" -- that God created the Earth about 6,000 years ago, and dinosaurs and humans coexisted early on -- is a popular strain of creationism.

Though in her race for governor she called for faith-based "intelligent design" to be taught along with evolution in Alaska's schools, Gov. Palin has not sought to require it, state educators say.

In a widely-circulated interview, Matt Damon said of Palin, "I need to know if she really think that dinosaurs were here 4000 years ago. I want to know that, I really do. Because she's gonna have the nuclear codes."

[Wise Guy]

Snook, making Sara Palin look like a dumb crazy lady is almost so easy its not fair.

YouTube - Sarah Palin IS De-Witched!

Sarah Palin Linked Her Electoral Success to Prayer of Kenyan Witch Hunter. The pastor who accused a Kenyan woman of causing car accidents through demonic spells "laid his hands" on Palin in prayer. The pastor whose prayer Sarah Palin says helped her to become governor of Alaska founded his ministry with a witch hunt against a Kenyan woman whom he accused of causing car accidents through demonic spells.

At a speech at the Wasilla Assembly of God on June 8 this year, Palin described how Thomas Muthee had laid his hands on her when he visited the church as a guest preacher in late 2005, prior to her successful gubernatorial bid.

In video footage of the speech, she is seen saying: "As I was mayor and Pastor Muthee was here and he was praying over me, and you know how he speaks and he's so bold. And he was praying "Lord make a way, Lord make a way."

"And I'm thinking, this guy's really bold, he doesn't even know what I'm going to do, he doesn't know what my plans are. And he's praying not "Oh Lord, if it be your will may she become governor," no, he just prayed for it. He said, "Lord make a way and let her do this next step. And that's exactly what happened."

She then adds: "So, again, very, very powerful, coming from this church," before the presiding pastor comments on the "prophetic power" of the event.

An African evangelist, Muthee has given guest sermons at the Wasilla Assembly of God on at least 10 occasions in his role as the founder of the Word of Faith Church, also known as the Prayer Cave.

Muthee founded the Prayer Cave in 1989 in Kiambu, Kenya, after "God spoke" to him and his late wife, Margaret, and called him to the country, according to the church's Web site.

The pastor speaks of his offensive against a demonic presence in the town in a trailer for the evangelical video "Transformations," made by Sentinel Group, a Christian research and information agency.

"We prayed, we fasted, the Lord showed us a spirit of witchcraft resting over the place," Muthee says.
According to the Christian Science Monitor, six months of fervent prayer and research identified the source of the witchcraft as a local woman called Mama Jane, who ran a "divination" center called the Emmanuel Clinic.

Her alleged involvement in fortune-telling and the fact that she lived near the site of a number of fatal car accidents led Muthee to publicly declare her a witch responsible for the town's ills and order her to offer her up her soul for salvation or leave Kiambu.

Says the Monitor, "Muthee held a crusade that 'brought about 200 people to Christ.'" They set up around-the-clock prayer intercession in the basement of a grocery store and eventually, says the pastor, "the demonic influence -- the 'principality' over Kiambu -- was broken," and Mama Jane fled the town.

[snook]

The level of stupidity has hit new all time lows

"Palin Claimed Dinosaurs And People Coexisted"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/28/palin-claimed-dinosaurs-a_n_130012.html

LOL Snook, you make this too easy for me

Soon after Sarah Palin was elected mayor of the foothill town of Wasilla, Alaska, she startled a local music teacher by insisting in casual conversation that men and dinosaurs coexisted on an Earth created 6,000 years ago -- about 65 million years after scientists say most dinosaurs became extinct -- the teacher said.


After conducting a college band and watching Palin deliver a commencement address to a small group of home-schooled students in June 1997, Wasilla resident Philip Munger said, he asked the young mayor about her religious beliefs.

Palin told him that "dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time," Munger said. When he asked her about prehistoric fossils and tracks dating back millions of years, Palin said "she had seen pictures of human footprints inside the tracks," recalled Munger, who teaches music at the University of Alaska in Anchorage and has regularly criticized Palin in recent years on his liberal political blog, called Progressive Alaska.

The idea of a "young Earth" -- that God created the Earth about 6,000 years ago, and dinosaurs and humans coexisted early on -- is a popular strain of creationism.

Though in her race for governor she called for faith-based "intelligent design" to be taught along with evolution in Alaska's schools, Gov. Palin has not sought to require it, state educators say.

In a widely-circulated interview, Matt Damon said of Palin, "I need to know if she really think that dinosaurs were here 4000 years ago. I want to know that, I really do. Because she's gonna have the nuclear codes."

Wise Guy - I am not quite sure why you insist on the Palin character assassinations or how they are relevant to anything being discussed. But if you feel compelled to continue your effort, at least cite a reputable source.

I am sure a number of us can pick our least favorite political figure and blast them out of the water...but what does that accomplish?

Instead let's discuss and debate the merits of their positions, legislation, and policies. That is more constructive and intelligent than mindless chatter about a huffington post entry.

[JackBauer]

Thinking of what a friend (female) said to me last year. She's only 26 or so.

She was kind of anti-republican. But as the thought of bailing out people who bought houses they couldn't really afford started being talked about...

She started waking up. She said to me that as she gets older she's becoming more conservative. That essentially what liberals in congress were doing is making less and less sense to her.

I too - while always conservative, am becoming more and more pragmatically conservative as I get older.

[Nuclear]

"Obama Man" Video

Funny regardless of your political persuasion!

[Wise Guy]

Palin character assassinations or how they are relevant to anything being discussed..

Character assassinations?

She believes the world is 6,000 years old and that man walked with Dinosaurs.

Now I know I'm smarter than the average bear, but......come on......

Anyone who believes said statements above in my opinion shouldn't be trusted to be a park ranger, nonetheless second in command of the most powerful nation/tribe of people ever assembled in the earth's 4 billion years. :cheers2:

Sorry, but those statements above automatically put someone in my idiot category. :dupe:

[Wise Guy]

Thinking of what a friend (female) said to me last year. She's only 26 or so.

She was kind of anti-republican. But as the thought of bailing out people who bought houses they couldn't really afford started being talked about...

She started waking up. She said to me that as she gets older she's becoming more conservative. That essentially what liberals in congress were doing is making less and less sense to her.

I too - while always conservative, am becoming more and more pragmatically conservative as I get older.

Interesting.

I have always been a huge fan of the founders of our country, our forefathers, George Washington, as well as the early Republicans of America.

[snook]

Character assassinations?

She believes the world is 6,000 years old and that man walked with Dinosaurs.

Now I know I'm smarter than the average bear, but......come on......

Anyone who believes said statements above in my opinion shouldn't be trusted to be a park ranger, nonetheless second in command of the most powerful nation/tribe of people ever assembled in the earth's 4 billion years. :cheers2:

Sorry, but those statements above automatically put someone in my idiot category. :dupe:

Do you actually know this to be her position or is it based on speculation by the biased blogger? I admit I am not overly familiar with this 'issue', but want to be sure I know the facts before I call an upstanding mother of 5 and governor an 'idiot' or 'dumb crazy lady'.

[Wise Guy]

Do you actually know this to be her position or is it based on speculation by the biased blogger? I admit I am not overly familiar with this 'issue', but want to be sure I know the facts before I call an upstanding mother of 5 and governor an 'idiot' or 'dumb crazy lady'.

Not a governor any more.

And just because someone is a mother and an ex-governor doesn't necessarily exempt them from idiot status.

Although I do commend her choice in supporting her teenage daughter through pregnancy as well as her choice for sticking throughout her pregnancy despite knowing of the challenges of raising a child with special needs.

That is Herculean in my book.

Alright alright, you got me there, I have a soft spot for pro-life issues :iagree:

[JackBauer]

Interesting.

I have always been a huge fan of the founders of our country, our forefathers, George Washington, as well as the early Republicans of America.

Interesting.

I'm curious what you dislike so much about the current Republicans?

I'm not trying to convert you - I think many true conservatives are turning away from the party because of their more recent tax & spend policies.

I just see the "conservative movement" as more of "pragmatic movement". The more people analyze certain critical issues, the more they often start thinking like conservatives.

[snook]

Not a governor any more.


Sure she is, until July 26. :biggrin:

[snook]

Interesting.

I'm curious what you dislike so much about the current Republicans?

I'm not trying to convert you - I think many true conservatives are turning away from the party because of their more recent tax & spend policies.

I just see the "conservative movement" as more of "pragmatic movement". The more people analyze certain critical issues, the more they often start thinking like conservatives.

You said it better than me.

Let's forget the name calling and rhetoric that gets us no where. I want to debate ideas and solutions.

The underlying principles of conservatism drive my point of view, but not necessarily my politics. There are unfortunately very few politicians these days that I admire and see eye to eye with.

To quote Donald Rumsfeld - they are feeding the alligator hoping it eats them last.

[Wise Guy]

Interesting.

I'm curious what you dislike so much about the current Republicans?



A couple things.

The founding fathers were big on a couple things. Personal freedoms and liberties, including keeping religion out of government and our lives, and frivilous spending.

Pretty much a majority of the Republicans today have seemed to forget those two.

I really, really have a dislike for the religious right. Gay marriage? Why is this even an issue. What a waste of time.

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks two people shouldn't be allowed the same benefits of marriage regardless of sexual preference = Idiot

And the religious right, do not get me started. Anyone who believes the world is 6,000 years old and does not believe in evolution, at least in some part, = idiot

And that pretty much puts most of the republicans in my idiot category.

And the biggest issue of all = Personal freedoms. What are we doing trying to police the world, and ourselves, fanatically?

[Bulldog]

Character assassinations?

She believes the world is 6,000 years old and that man walked with Dinosaurs.

Now I know I'm smarter than the average bear, but......come on......

Anyone who believes said statements above in my opinion shouldn't be trusted to be a park ranger, nonetheless second in command of the most powerful nation/tribe of people ever assembled in the earth's 4 billion years. :cheers2:

Sorry, but those statements above automatically put someone in my idiot category. :dupe:

You have to remember that anyone who believes in creationism does not believe the earth has been around for anywhere near that long.

If you actually did some research with an open mind you may find that what is written in the old testament pretty much explains how dinosaurs and people could have existed at the same time as well as why they are no longer walking the earth. It also gives reasons as to why many people mistakenly think the earth is much older than it really is.

I guess I'm a nut job too in your eyes. But I can live with that. :sifone:

[Wise Guy]

If you actually did some research with an open mind you may find that what is written in the old testament pretty much explains how dinosaurs and people could have existed at the same time as well as why they are no longer walking the earth. It also gives reasons as to why many people mistakenly think the earth is much older than it really is.

I guess I'm a nut job too in your eyes. But I can live with that. :sifone:

The Bible is not to be taken as scientific literature or research, IMO.

Anything and everything to me is open for review and to be taken with skepticism.

I've read it, and I find many of the claims which assert facts are actual works of fictions.

I do not need to defend my position. Pretty much an overwhelming majority of the brightest minds in science are on my side here, and that is something you cannot argue with
:thumbup:

Your not a nutt Bulldog, I think your a really good guy and I bet your a helluva nice guy in real life. Both my parents shared your views for peets sake :)

Just a product of the 20th century, and its thinking, thats all.

I don't mind the Joe six packs believing in creation. Its just the people trying to run this country and world who do I have a problem with.

[gman]

Read the Francis Collins book, he reconciles how you can reconcile God creating and then letting it evolve exactly as he planned it to.

It really made sense to me. My one sentence explanation cannot begin to tell you how good this book is. He was the head of the Genome Project that mapped the Human Genome.

[snook]

A couple things.

The founding fathers were big on a couple things. Personal freedoms and liberties, including keeping religion out of government and our lives, and frivilous spending.

Pretty much a majority of the Republicans today have seemed to forget those two.

I really, really have a dislike for the religious right. Gay marriage? Why is this even an issue. What a waste of time.

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks two people shouldn't be allowed the same benefits of marriage regardless of sexual preference = Idiot

And the religious right, do not get me started. Anyone who believes the world is 6,000 years old and does not believe in evolution, at least in some part, = idiot

And that pretty much puts most of the republicans in my idiot category.

And the biggest issue of all = Personal freedoms. What are we doing trying to police the world, and ourselves, fanatically?

This pretty much sums of the level of political discourse these days. And we wonder why the nation is so polarized.

[snook]

A couple things.

The founding fathers were big on a couple things. Personal freedoms and liberties, including keeping religion out of government and our lives, and frivilous spending.

Pretty much a majority of the Republicans today have seemed to forget those two.

I really, really have a dislike for the religious right. Gay marriage? Why is this even an issue. What a waste of time.

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks two people shouldn't be allowed the same benefits of marriage regardless of sexual preference = Idiot

And the religious right, do not get me started. Anyone who believes the world is 6,000 years old and does not believe in evolution, at least in some part, = idiot

And that pretty much puts most of the republicans in my idiot category.

And the biggest issue of all = Personal freedoms. What are we doing trying to police the world, and ourselves, fanatically?

Okay, perhaps you have a personal litmus test that places higher weighting on 'gay marriage' or 'war', because on your very first line regarding freedoms, liberties, and religion, the Democrats are a monumental failure. How do you reconcile that?

I find it interesting how you place such a emphasis on freedom, yet when people exert their freedom of speech and say something you don't agree with, they get labeled an 'Idiot'.

How ironic is that?

Because someone doesn't think that marriage should be redefined to include homosexuals they are an 'idiot'?

Why not come up with a new term that defines a homosexual relationship and be done with it? Why attempt to change something with such historical and cultural significance?

-----------------
personal rant
-----------------

What I truly find amusing (sadly), is how judgmental liberal-minded people have become.

[GirlyMan]

Read the Francis Collins book, he reconciles how you can reconcile God creating and then letting it evolve exactly as he planned it to.

That's a good one from a very enlightened man. But an even simpler one is God blew itself up and here we are. Pieces of God.

[cpeil2]

It also gives reasons as to why many people mistakenly think the earth is much older than it really is.




I think the creationists call it the doctrine of apparent age.

[JackBauer]

I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks two people shouldn't be allowed the same benefits of marriage regardless of sexual preference = Idiot

And the religious right, do not get me started. Anyone who believes the world is 6,000 years old and does not believe in evolution, at least in some part, = idiot

And that pretty much puts most of the republicans in my idiot category.

And the biggest issue of all = Personal freedoms. What are we doing trying to police the world, and ourselves, fanatically?

Ok a couple things.

I tend to agree with you on personal freedoms overall. I do however think helmet and seatbelt laws are pretty valuable. (As examples where I may disagree with some libertarians)

I also tend to agree with you about separation of church & state, even though our country was founded on christian values.... Well it was also founded on that separation.

I happen to be a relatively young (mid 30's) traditionalist. For thousands of years the definition of marriage has been about a man and a woman. I don't have an issue with same sex benefits. I more have an issue with using the term "marriage". While adhering to such semantics, I can see where people would disagree with me. Really - I can understand that people disagree with me here... I accept it.

The lunacy though - comes in where people do disagree with me, and instead of respecting my right to have my own opinion, they instead decide to force theirs upon me... And call me such names as "idiot". :)

In reality I'm speaking of the whole Miss California thing. I don't harbor any ill will against those who are all pro-gay marriage. I think it is outrageous though that some of those people speak out with such hatred against individuals that are for the classic definition.

And I mean - is President Obama an idiot? By your definition he would be.

And really - few people truly believe the Earth is 6000 years old. If you are actually throwing a large portion of the Republican party (of which I am NOT a member) into that category... You're doing yourself a injustice.

(Those are probably the same fringe crazies who won't bring their children for medical treatment because they believe God will provide for them... they do exist but I really don't think they are all that common.)

[Wise Guy]

I think the creationists call it the doctrine of apparent age.

Had no idea what that means, so I just checked it.

Hmmmmm..........

"This idea suggests that the things God made during the Creation week were formed complete and fully functional. For instance, how old were Adam and Eve two seconds after God created them? They were literally two seconds old! Yet they walked, talked, and looked like adult human beings, and even had the ability to reproduce (Genesis 1:28). If a tree were cut down in the Garden of Eden one day after the Creation week, how many rings would it have had? Possibly hundreds, yet it would have been only five days old (trees and other plants, remember, were created on day three of the Creation week). So, the real age of the tree and the apparent age of the tree would have been quite different. Just because this Earth may appear older than 6,000 years, does not mean it is older than that. "

[Wise Guy]

Ok a couple things.

I tend to agree with you on personal freedoms overall. I do however think helmet and seatbelt laws are pretty valuable. (As examples where I may disagree with some libertarians)

I also tend to agree with you about separation of church & state, even though our country was founded on christian values.... Well it was also founded on that separation.

I happen to be a relatively young (mid 30's) traditionalist. For thousands of years the definition of marriage has been about a man and a woman. I don't have an issue with same sex benefits. I more have an issue with using the term "marriage". While adhering to such semantics, I can see where people would disagree with me. Really - I can understand that people disagree with me here... I accept it.

The lunacy though - comes in where people do disagree with me, and instead of respecting my right to have my own opinion, they instead decide to force theirs upon me... And call me such names as "idiot". :)

In reality I'm speaking of the whole Miss California thing. I don't harbor any ill will against those who are all pro-gay marriage. I think it is outrageous though that some of those people speak out with such hatred against individuals that are for the classic definition.

And I mean - is President Obama an idiot? By your definition he would be.

And really - few people truly believe the Earth is 6000 years old. If you are actually throwing a large portion of the Republican party (of which I am NOT a member) into that category... You're doing yourself a injustice.

(Those are probably the same fringe crazies who won't bring their children for medical treatment because they believe God will provide for them... they do exist but I really don't think they are all that common.)

Right on, I can't disagree with any of that.

Who cares what we call it though?

[GirlyMan]

wtf? If we're all not startiing from the same scientific bases then wtf?

[Wise Guy]

wtf? If we're all not startiing from the same scientific bases then wtf?

Not getting it either :huh:

[biceps72]

JHC!

kill this freakin thread!!!!!!!!! like bad roadkill I have to keep looking at it (but very rarely)!

Btw. the earth is not 6000 years old; it is billions of years old! Anyone that believes humans and dinosaurs co-existed needs to see me about this bridge
I have on sale in Illinois! :biggrin:

On second thought carry on. Most people on here seem to be very honest and helpful so if this political fecal matter releases whatever; go for it!!!

[Wise Guy]

JHC!

kill this freakin thread!!!!!!!!! like bad roadkill I have to keep looking at it (but very rarely)!

Btw. the earth is not 6000 years old; it is billions of years old! Anyone that believes humans and dinosaurs co-existed needs to see me about this bridge
I have on sale in Illinois! :biggrin:

On second thought carry on. Most people on here seem to be very honest and helpful so if this political fecal matter releases whatever; go for it!!!

Right. I enjoy the political and religious discourse.

I don't think any topic should be closed off for discuss and speculation.

[Wise Guy]

This is Hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YouTube - Matt Damon Rips Sarah Palin

[snook]

What is funnier is that we elected a community organizer with less experience , as PRESIDENT.

But I digress, let's talk about Vice President material here.

Instead, we got a Vice President (Biden) who had to quit his own presidential campaign because he was caught plagiarizing...numerous times. You do know that right? 1988. Check it.
- Stole Kinnocks speech (basically his life story)
- Stole Robert Kennedy speech
- Stole Hubert Humphrey speech

How about Biden as President? This guy can't tell the truth without exaggeration to save his life and you are harping on Gov. Sarah Palin being the possible President.

Don't be so enamored with smooth talking politicians who are really empty suits. I will take an honest blue collar any day of the week, and perhaps twice on Sunday.

[Wise Guy]

What is funnier is that we elected a community organizer with less experience , as PRESIDENT.

True, but he is a Harvard Law, head of his class, Grad.

Watching them both speak its quite obvious which one is more intelligent.

[JanSz]

What is funnier is that we elected a community organizer with less experience , as PRESIDENT.

Partitions of Poland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland

Just replace Poland with USA
very similar reasons.

it comming,
I am serious.

.

[snook]

True, but he is a Harvard Law, head of his class, Grad.

Watching them both speak its quite obvious which one is more intelligent.

Certainly smart. Most everyone at an Ivy League college is. Doesn't make them the best choice for President.

Decent speaker, as long as he has a teleprompter. I've seen better.

[snook]

Partitions of Poland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland

Just replace Poland with USA
very similar reasons.

it comming,
I am serious.

.

Agreed.

Gov. Rick Perry floated the idea a few months ago when the federal branch started to overstep their boundaries. Apparently there is some legal language somewhere that indicates Texas, being a republic, can technically withdraw from US.

[00slotiv]

The level of stupidity has hit new all time lows

"Palin Claimed Dinosaurs And People Coexisted"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/28/palin-claimed-dinosaurs-a_n_130012.html

LOL Snook, you make this too easy for me

Soon after Sarah Palin was elected mayor of the foothill town of Wasilla, Alaska, she startled a local music teacher by insisting in casual conversation that men and dinosaurs coexisted on an Earth created 6,000 years ago -- about 65 million years after scientists say most dinosaurs became extinct -- the teacher said.


After conducting a college band and watching Palin deliver a commencement address to a small group of home-schooled students in June 1997, Wasilla resident Philip Munger said, he asked the young mayor about her religious beliefs.

Palin told him that "dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time," Munger said. When he asked her about prehistoric fossils and tracks dating back millions of years, Palin said "she had seen pictures of human footprints inside the tracks," recalled Munger, who teaches music at the University of Alaska in Anchorage and has regularly criticized Palin in recent years on his liberal political blog, called Progressive Alaska.

The idea of a "young Earth" -- that God created the Earth about 6,000 years ago, and dinosaurs and humans coexisted early on -- is a popular strain of creationism.

Though in her race for governor she called for faith-based "intelligent design" to be taught along with evolution in Alaska's schools, Gov. Palin has not sought to require it, state educators say.

In a widely-circulated interview, Matt Damon said of Palin, "I need to know if she really think that dinosaurs were here 4000 years ago. I want to know that, I really do. Because she's gonna have the nuclear codes."

Wise Guy, while this thread has a pulse I want to chime in. The reason people came up with the very old age theory in the first place is to get God out of the picture so they don't have to do what he says.

It is ridiculous and unprovable that the earth is billions of year old. Have to consider the source with that. Way too many assumptions to start with.

The scientists or whatever they are called who espouse a young earth are intelligent people who have no predetermined bias against God, they just want to examine the facts.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c012.html

This old earth blather was birthed so that someone can somehow imagine what we have today coming from absolutely nothing and of course, would have taken billions of years. But something from nothing isn't logical no matter how many years one tacks on. Why not trillions of years? Something doesn't come from nothing unless God wants it to.

There is no proof of an old earth. Believing in a young earth means accepting biblical creationism and that is why the old earth bilge exists.

Bob

[Wise Guy]

Wise Guy, while this thread has a pulse I want to chime in. The reason people came up with the very old age theory in the first place is to get God out of the picture so they don't have to do what he says.

It is ridiculous and unprovable that the earth is billions of year old. Have to consider the source with that. Way too many assumptions to start with.

The scientists or whatever they are called who espouse a young earth are intelligent people who have no predetermined bias against God, they just want to examine the facts.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c012.html

This old earth blather was birthed so that someone can somehow imagine what we have today coming from absolutely nothing and of course, would have taken billions of years. But something from nothing isn't logical no matter how many years one tacks on. Why not trillions of years? Something doesn't come from nothing unless God wants it to.

There is no proof of an old earth. Believing in a young earth means accepting biblical creationism and that is why the old earth bilge exists.

Bob

Quick search off the net

Modern geologists and geophysicists consider the age of the Earth to be around 4.54 billion years (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%).[1][2] This age has been determined by radiometric age dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples.

Following the scientific revolution and the development of radiometric age dating, measurements of lead in uranium-rich minerals showed that some were in excess of a billion years old.[3] The oldest such minerals analysed to date – small crystals of zircon from the Jack Hills of Western Australia – are at least 4.404 billion years old.[4][5][6] Comparing the mass and luminosity of the Sun to the multitudes of other stars, it appears that the solar system cannot be much older than those rocks. Ca-Al-rich inclusions (inclusions rich in calcium and aluminium) – the oldest known solid constituents within meteorites that are formed within the solar system – are 4.567 billion years old,[7][8] giving an age for the solar system and an upper limit for the age of Earth. It is hypothesised that the accretion of Earth began soon after the formation of the Ca-Al-rich inclusions and the meteorites. Because the exact accretion time of Earth is not yet known, and the predictions from different accretion models range from a few millions up to about 100 million years, the exact age of Earth is difficult to determine. It is also difficult to determine the exact age of the oldest rocks on Earth, exposed at the surface, as they are aggregates of minerals of possibly different ages. The Acasta Gneiss of Northern Canada may be the oldest known exposed crustal rock"

I'll take science thank you very much over theories based on non scientific literature wrote, rewrote and reinterpreted thousands of years ago, from a christian web site.

Perhaps I can pray for higher GH levels? Oh wait, I'll need science for that, silly me :thumbup:

[Wise Guy]

"Modern radiometric dating

Radiometric dating continues to be the predominant way scientists date geologic timescales. Techniques for radioactive dating have been tested and fine-tuned for the past 50+ years. Forty or so different dating techniques are utilized to date a wide variety of materials, and dates for the same sample using these techniques are in very close agreement on the age of the material.

Possible contamination problems do exist, but they have been studied and dealt with by careful investigation, leading to sample preparation procedures being minimized to limit the chance of contamination. Hundreds to thousands of measurements are done daily with excellent precision and accurate results. Even so, research continues to refine and improve radiometric dating to this day."

Wiki

[00slotiv]

Quick search off the net

Modern geologists and geophysicists consider the age of the Earth to be around 4.54 billion years (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%).[1][2] This age has been determined by radiometric age dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples.

Following the scientific revolution and the development of radiometric age dating, measurements of lead in uranium-rich minerals showed that some were in excess of a billion years old.[3] The oldest such minerals analysed to date – small crystals of zircon from the Jack Hills of Western Australia – are at least 4.404 billion years old.[4][5][6] Comparing the mass and luminosity of the Sun to the multitudes of other stars, it appears that the solar system cannot be much older than those rocks. Ca-Al-rich inclusions (inclusions rich in calcium and aluminium) – the oldest known solid constituents within meteorites that are formed within the solar system – are 4.567 billion years old,[7][8] giving an age for the solar system and an upper limit for the age of Earth. It is hypothesised that the accretion of Earth began soon after the formation of the Ca-Al-rich inclusions and the meteorites. Because the exact accretion time of Earth is not yet known, and the predictions from different accretion models range from a few millions up to about 100 million years, the exact age of Earth is difficult to determine. It is also difficult to determine the exact age of the oldest rocks on Earth, exposed at the surface, as they are aggregates of minerals of possibly different ages. The Acasta Gneiss of Northern Canada may be the oldest known exposed crustal rock"

I'll take science thank you very much over theories based on non scientific literature wrote, rewrote and reinterpreted thousands of years ago, from a christian web site.

Perhaps I can pray for higher GH levels? Oh wait, I'll need science for that, silly me :thumbup:

Sapient Guy,

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/dating-radiometric.htm

Don't know where you got this- "I'll take science thank you very much over theories based on non scientific literature wrote, rewrote and reinterpreted thousands of years ago, from a christian web site."

If you are intelligent, and I think you are, you must come to the conclusion that something can't emerge from nothing unless a divine being brought it to pass. People touting billions of years don't tend to believe in the biblical record of a six day creation or in the God of the Bible, and a biblical timeline many put in the 10-15000 year area.

There are people who study these things who have forgotten more than you or I will ever know about it, who can't comprehend an old earth based on the evidence they examine.

Again, there is a reason some contend the earth is billions of years old. That is to obviate God's ownership of their life. It is a conscious rebellion that they want others to agree with without using their minds. They have corrupted their "evidence" to suit their purposes.

They think that if they can add enough years then it might seem plausible that a God didn't need to be involved so they don't answer to him. Might assuage their conscience, but God still created in six days by speaking it into existence. He didn't need it to evolve.

This motive is most definitely at the heart of the matter in my opinion.

Even children without such an agenda can understand that something didn't come from nothing. In six days by God a relatively short time ago, or billions of years ago all by itself from nothing. That is all there is to choose from.

This long standing physical debate is really a spiritual one.

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with praying for more GH. People have been cured of far worse by prayer and much more spectacular things have been granted. God can deliver naturally or some other way like HGH, but it still God who answers.

Bob

[Wise Guy]

Sapient Guy,

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/dating-radiometric.htm


If you are intelligent, and I think you are, you must come to the conclusion that something can't emerge from nothing unless a divine being brought it to pass. People touting billions of years don't tend to believe in the biblical record of a six day creation or in the God of the Bible, and a biblical timeline many put in the 10-15000 year area.



By all means Bob I'm not trying to discredit the idea of God or His existence.

I believe in God - My point that I contend is that

1. The concept and idea of God is very complex and its impossible for us to wrap our head around it. We do have an innate and real biological push to believe in a higher power and I do not discredit that. In fact, i look to that as a huge reason as to why I believe in God as proof.

I'm a big believer and fan of the biology and the psychology, and more specifically the cerebral, way of the human working. The fact that we, from acient times, have always looked towards a higher power speaks to me in volumes.

2. That all said, we need to get away from this silly notion of religion that is people who treat the Bible as its some sort of Law or work of non-fiction. It is not. The Earth is not 6,000 years old, and the people who believe this I honestly know are really nice, decent people who wouldn't hurt a fly. Its just they were brought up probably fed that at an early age and didn't get a chance to see things from a different point of view at an early age, thus because stuck in their dogmatic views.

Thas all. :thumbup: I mean in a good way, and I do enjoy the aspects that we can have a discussion about this in a good way.

Oh, and I just have to pick on Sara Palin just becuase. I call her a crazy lady in good fun, only because I don't think she is, well, the most intelligent person ever to have White House aspirations. I think the Republican party can do better. They took a Gamble. I don't blame them for that, it looked bad from the beginning

That dam socialist is a smooth character, good looking, intelligent and shit, he is multiracial, just what this country needs in power. I believe that. Alot of minorities in this country have had a rough go at life, and America only until recently was decent to them as a whole.

That said, of course I know Sara Palin is a hell of a person, I respect her family views on things BIG TIME. I'm sure she is a extremely nice lady and a very decent person, and if she was my neighbor I bet I would adore the heck out of her.

Its just, well, she isn't the person I want dealing with Vladimir Putin, thats all.

Just sayin :thumbup:

[Bulldog]

The Record of the Rocks

YouTube - The Record of the Rocks

[Dr. John Crisler]

There have been a plethora (big word for simple country doctor) of editorials in the Lansing State Journal (a daily newspaper with not a single adult mind on the editorial board) from those claiming to be from countries where socialized medicine is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

What was the percentage of doctors who fled Canada when socialized medicine was imposed?

And what is the average wait for a specialist in socialized medicine countries? 17 weeks? In the US you can get in for a gall bladder attack within hours. Stent placement is the same way. Citizens regularly die waiting for simple procedures elsewhere.

Socialized medicine does not work anywhere in the world. Yet Obama and the Democrats are about to shove it down our throats--even though we overwhelmingly do not want it. America has the best health care in the world. There is NO "health care crisis". Once again, the Democrats are happy to criticize and minimalize our great country in order to serve their true aim--absolute control of every aspect of our lives.

They are also going to impose socialized medicine in the face of financial ruin. And they claim--and get away with, since the corrupt liberal media is nothing but their lapdog--that unless they do, it will bankrupt us. No ojne seems to care it will cost trillions. The traitors!

Who will want to go through all it takes to become a doctor just to work, pidgeon-holed, for the government. The Democrats destroy everything they touch (starting with our econmy, moving to our national security, then to "international image", and, now, our medical system.

[00slotiv]

By all means Bob I'm not trying to discredit the idea of God or His existence.

I believe in God - My point that I contend is that

1. The concept and idea of God is very complex and its impossible for us to wrap our head around it. We do have an innate and real biological push to believe in a higher power and I do not discredit that. In fact, i look to that as a huge reason as to why I believe in God as proof.

I'm a big believer and fan of the biology and the psychology, and more specifically the cerebral, way of the human working. The fact that we, from acient times, have always looked towards a higher power speaks to me in volumes.

2. That all said, we need to get away from this silly notion of religion that is people who treat the Bible as its some sort of Law or work of non-fiction. It is not. The Earth is not 6,000 years old, and the people who believe this I honestly know are really nice, decent people who wouldn't hurt a fly. Its just they were brought up probably fed that at an early age and didn't get a chance to see things from a different point of view at an early age, thus because stuck in their dogmatic views.

Thas all. :thumbup: I mean in a good way, and I do enjoy the aspects that we can have a discussion about this in a good way.



You made some salient comments Wise Guy and I really appreciate your tolerance for controversial comments on this site. I am sensitive to sounding preachy, but I have trouble separating practical realities from spiritual ones so I hope you will indulge me one more time.

Yes, the concept of God is abstruse. I mean, having existed eternally, with no creator? Greatness that is unsearchable? Able to hear an infinite number of people's prayers simultaneously with absolute comprehension, even if the person praying just can't produce the right words. Speaking the universe into creation, and eventually, to speak it into destruction, then to recreate it the same way.

This does not mean he doesn't want to be known and can't be known. That is one of the reasons he inspired the bible. This book is about knowing God personally, daily, arm in arm walking through life together with the one who cares more for us than we do or any other person does.

It shows how to have an intimate relationship with the creator of all things. More intimate than a marriage or any other earthly relationship, much better than that.

He (God in the person of Jesus), lived among ordinary people for over 30 years as anybody else does today. He was as ordinary as anyone else as no one knew he was God until later in his earthly life. Fully human, yet fully divine. Back then, plenty of people knew him and related to him. (extrabiblical writings confirm this though it isn't necessary for affirming the veracity of the bible). He wants that today and he wants that for eternity. We have to want it too though.

Psychology, biology, geography, astronomy, physics, etc...all were created by God and are rightly studied. One thing they do is direct us to its author. There are those who have found the bible correcting wrongly assumed teaching in all the above areas. I'm sorry that I can't supply examples as I don't have this in print.

My contention is that all of creation and all our experiences scream at us that there is a God and that he fully intends to reveal himself to anyone who will know him on his terms.

As far as a historical book, the bible is by far the most accurate record in history, as other records of events long ago were written much later after they happened. The sheer detail in it is impressive.

Really, I hate to dwell on the age of the earth because it is a side issue that can distract from more pressing things like who is God and can I know him.

Having said that, Christians must believe in a virgin birth, the catastrophic flood, the parting of the red sea, the six day creation, Jesus' resurrection, etc...because their source book of truth teaches that as historical fact.

Some might see this as even more of an impediment than believing in a young earth.

As much as faith is necessary, God has never shied away from inviting anyone to using their mind to know his existence, through the creation and everthing that can possibly relate to it like why do things work the way they do, why do people have these differing skill sets, personalities, experiences to use the resources of this planet for life as we know it? Why is there so much order and consistency? How does the solar system stay intact?

God gave us our intelligence, our minds, to be able to appreciate him and what he has done for us and to understand as much about the earth and life as we can in this lifetime. He also wants us to live with him forever...if only we want to. A closed mind will try to refute God's existence and the deference he deserves.

The bible was written for us to know exactly who God is and have a relationship with him. Believing in a higher power is futile if it isn't the only higher power that exists and God has made it easy to identify him through nature and the bible. This is what separates religions from Christianity. Religions only lead to a self-righteous life or one that only hopes to please a god that one can't get close to.

Believing in the "wrong" higher power has catastrophic and eternal implications.

I couldn't tell what your opinion of the bible was but it does contain laws, if you will, for how to live, that result in blessing, and is historically accurate in minute detail and so rich in depth that it couldn't be plumbed in several lifetimes.

Bob

[00slotiv]

There have been a plethora (big word for simple country doctor) of editorials in the Lansing State Journal (a daily newspaper with not a single adult mind on the editorial board) from those claiming to be from countries where socialized medicine is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

What was the percentage of doctors who fled Canada when socialized medicine was imposed?

And what is the average wait for a specialist in socialized medicine countries? 17 weeks? In the US you can get in for a gall bladder attack within hours. Stent placement is the same way. Citizens regularly die waiting for simple procedures elsewhere.

Socialized medicine does not work anywhere in the world. Yet Obama and the Democrats are about to shove it down our throats--even though we overwhelmingly do not want it. America has the best health care in the world. There is NO "health care crisis". Once again, the Democrats are happy to criticize and minimalize our great country in order to serve their true aim--absolute control of every aspect of our lives.

They are also going to impose socialized medicine in the face of financial ruin. And they claim--and get away with, since the corrupt liberal media is nothing but their lapdog--that unless they do, it will bankrupt us. No ojne seems to care it will cost trillions. The traitors!

Who will want to go through all it takes to become a doctor just to work, pidgeon-holed, for the government. The Democrats destroy everything they touch (starting with our econmy, moving to our national security, then to "international image", and, now, our medical system.

I am starting to agree with you Doctor John.

Should we be concerned about our future ability to get the HRT we have now? Will it just take longer to get prescriptions, will we be allowed fewer and less frequent tests? Will it be more difficult to convince the government that hormone deficiency should be treated at all?

Thanks.

Bob

[Bulldog]

You made some salient comments Wise Guy and I really appreciate your tolerance for controversial comments on this site. I am sensitive to sounding preachy, but I have trouble separating practical realities from spiritual ones so I hope you will indulge me one more time.

Yes, the concept of God is abstruse. I mean, having existed eternally, with no creator? Greatness that is unsearchable? Able to hear an infinite number of people's prayers simultaneously with absolute comprehension, even if the person praying just can't produce the right words. Speaking the universe into creation, and eventually, to speak it into destruction, then to recreate it the same way.

This does not mean he doesn't want to be known and can't be known. That is one of the reasons he inspired the bible. This book is about knowing God personally, daily, arm in arm walking through life together with the one who cares more for us than we do or any other person does.

It shows how to have an intimate relationship with the creator of all things. More intimate than a marriage or any other earthly relationship, much better than that.

He (God in the person of Jesus), lived among ordinary people for over 30 years as anybody else does today. He was as ordinary as anyone else as no one knew he was God until later in his earthly life. Fully human, yet fully divine. Back then, plenty of people knew him and related to him. (extrabiblical writings confirm this though it isn't necessary for affirming the veracity of the bible). He wants that today and he wants that for eternity. We have to want it too though.

Psychology, biology, geography, astronomy, physics, etc...all were created by God and are rightly studied. One thing they do is direct us to its author. There are those who have found the bible correcting wrongly assumed teaching in all the above areas. I'm sorry that I can't supply examples as I don't have this in print.

My contention is that all of creation and all our experiences scream at us that there is a God and that he fully intends to reveal himself to anyone who will know him on his terms.

As far as a historical book, the bible is by far the most accurate record in history, as other records of events long ago were written much later after they happened. The sheer detail in it is impressive.

Really, I hate to dwell on the age of the earth because it is a side issue that can distract from more pressing things like who is God and can I know him.

Having said that, Christians must believe in a virgin birth, the catastrophic flood, the parting of the red sea, the six day creation, Jesus' resurrection, etc...because their source book of truth teaches that as historical fact.

Some might see this as even more of an impediment than believing in a young earth.

As much as faith is necessary, God has never shied away from inviting anyone to using their mind to know his existence, through the creation and everthing that can possible relate to it like why do things work the way they do, why do people have these differing skill sets, personalities, experiences to use the resources of this planet for life as we know it? Why is there so much order and consistency? How does the solar system stay intact?

God gave us our intelligence, our minds, to be able to appreciate him and what he has done for us and to understand as much about the earth and life as we can in this lifetime. He also wants us to live with him forever...if only we want to. A closed mind will try to refute God's existence and the deference he deserves.

The bible was written for us to know exactly who God is and have a relationship with him. Believing in a higher power is futile if it isn't the only higher power that exists and God has made it easy to identify him through nature and the bible. This is what separates religions from Christianity. Religions only lead to a self-righteous life or one that only hopes to please a god that one can't get close to.

Believing in the "wrong" higher power has catastrophic and eternal implications.

I couldn't tell what your opinion of the bible was but it does contain laws, if you will, for how to live, that result in blessing, and is historically accurate in minute detail and so rich in depth that it couldn't be plumbed in several lifetimes.

Bob

That is great Bob. Very well said indeed.

[gman]

I am starting to agree with you Doctor John.

Should we be concerned about our future ability to get the HRT we have now? Will it just take longer to get prescriptions, will we be allowed fewer and less frequent tests? Will it be more difficult to convince the government that hormone deficiency should be treated at all?

Thanks.

Bob

It already is hard to convince some insurance companies, like mine. I mean, when your test level is in "normal" ranges, it is pretty hard to say you need to supplement with test, isn't it? I am surprised anyone can get it covered, to be honest.

[joe143]

Should we be concerned about our future ability to get the HRT we have now?

Personally I'm not too worried about that. Pharma companies do have stock in treating hypogonadism. Already there is Testim, Androgel, soon to be androxal, soon another gel called something like Bio Gel, and maybe one day SARMS. They wanna make money too.

I think worse case is we may have to foot more of the bill. Luckily T-Cyp is affordable and compounding pharmacies give you a cost advantage as well. The thing I'm most concerned with is them getting rid of compounding pharmacies. That's scary.

[joe143]

There have been a plethora (big word for simple country doctor) of editorials in the Lansing State Journal (a daily newspaper with not a single adult mind on the editorial board) from those claiming to be from countries where socialized medicine is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

What was the percentage of doctors who fled Canada when socialized medicine was imposed?

And what is the average wait for a specialist in socialized medicine countries? 17 weeks? In the US you can get in for a gall bladder attack within hours. Stent placement is the same way. Citizens regularly die waiting for simple procedures elsewhere.

Socialized medicine does not work anywhere in the world. Yet Obama and the Democrats are about to shove it down our throats--even though we overwhelmingly do not want it. America has the best health care in the world. There is NO "health care crisis". Once again, the Democrats are happy to criticize and minimalize our great country in order to serve their true aim--absolute control of every aspect of our lives.

They are also going to impose socialized medicine in the face of financial ruin. And they claim--and get away with, since the corrupt liberal media is nothing but their lapdog--that unless they do, it will bankrupt us. No ojne seems to care it will cost trillions. The traitors!

Who will want to go through all it takes to become a doctor just to work, pidgeon-holed, for the government. The Democrats destroy everything they touch (starting with our econmy, moving to our national security, then to "international image", and, now, our medical system.

Agree with everything, especially the bolded.

[gman]

Agree with everything, especially the bolded.

Not me, it shows me how hopeless our country is. The Dems say the same shit about the Republicans. The country is 90% middle of the road people, but the 2 parties cater to the 5% on either end. Terminal gridlock.

No one is willing to put the country first, I mean NO ONE. Both sides suck and should be ashamed of themselves. Everyone wants less taxes but more and or better services.

One example from here, we have tunnels to get everywhere. Last Thursday a pump broke and one tunnel was closed for 12 hours. The traffic came to a halt at all the tunnels as the cars piled up trying to get through. Everyone screamed at how we should have done something years ago, we need to fix this, etc.

Guess what? The region rejected a regional taxing authority referendum just for that very purpose two Novembers ago because the anti tax people got the word out about how bad it was.

We have only ourselves in aggregate to blame.

[snook]

It already is hard to convince some insurance companies, like mine. I mean, when your test level is in "normal" ranges, it is pretty hard to say you need to supplement with test, isn't it? I am surprised anyone can get it covered, to be honest.

Mine didn't cover it either (as a matter of fact I've had two insurance companies that wouldn't). So what. I chose to pay out of pocket. Life goes on.

[gman]

Mine didn't cover it either (as a matter of fact I've had two insurance companies that wouldn't). So what. I chose to pay out of pocket. Life goes on.

Exactly, life goes on!

It's a big reason I do the online clinic. It's effing cheap. $100 a month for test, arimidex and hcg. I would spend more than that going to an antiaging doc just for the office visits.

[00slotiv]

It already is hard to convince some insurance companies, like mine. I mean, when your test level is in "normal" ranges, it is pretty hard to say you need to supplement with test, isn't it? I am surprised anyone can get it covered, to be honest.

If you can convince them that you are undergoing the usual symptoms of low T, that has to help I would think.

In my case I had a sequence of lowering T levels over 8 years or so that reached 397 T and 88 Free before I sought help. They were in range but the direction they were taking and the memory problems, loss of strength and daytime fatigue were something my boss could vouch for.

Add in loss of nocturnal erections and even with marginal T levels one might have a chance of getting TRT.

Maybe the symptoms have to be overdramatized when talking to the doctor for effect? Show the doctor that this really matters to you and maybe a person can get some empathy.

You may have done this already.

Bob

[gman]

Insurance companies go by test results, not by symptoms.

I got jacked 10 years ago to a risk level 4 and had to frantically search for coverage to switch to. guess why: BCBS found out somehow that I had HDL of only 35, and they sent me a letter at renewal time saying I was a level 4 risk because of it (same risk as a terminal cancer patient). I had no symptoms, and was not and had never been treated by any doctor for cholesterol problems! lol

[snook]

Insurance companies go by test results, not by symptoms.

I got jacked 10 years ago to a risk level 4 and had to frantically search for coverage to switch to. guess why: BCBS found out somehow that I had HDL of only 35, and they sent me a letter at renewal time saying I was a level 4 risk because of it (same risk as a terminal cancer patient). I had no symptoms, and was not and had never been treated by any doctor for cholesterol problems! lol


Well of course they do.

High cholesterol does not usually manifest itself into a situation with outward symptoms. You can't 'feel' or 'tell' if you have high or low cholesterol without test results.

[00slotiv]

Insurance companies go by test results, not by symptoms.

I got jacked 10 years ago to a risk level 4 and had to frantically search for coverage to switch to. guess why: BCBS found out somehow that I had HDL of only 35, and they sent me a letter at renewal time saying I was a level 4 risk because of it (same risk as a terminal cancer patient). I had no symptoms, and was not and had never been treated by any doctor for cholesterol problems! lol

I don't know what to make of that gman, and I believe what you say.

I was under the impression they go by diagnosis codes like 257.2 for hypogonadism and if the doctor is convinced symptoms stem from less than optimal T levels, then that code is all the insurance companies need, not a comparison of T results to someone else.

I also have BCBS. I am under the impression the right code for hypopituitaryism got the HGH covered.

Then again I work for Pfizer and their drugs are supposed to be free and they make both T and HGH, however I am always told by BCBS that they need the right codes.

Bob

[GirlyMan]

If you are intelligent, and I think you are, you must come to the conclusion that something can't emerge from nothing unless a divine being brought it to pass.

Bah. You might, but I still ain't finding any rationale for a divine being there. Accidents happen all the time. I find myself more and more inclined over time to consider that this is all accidental.

[00slotiv]

Bah. You might, but I still ain't finding any rationale for a divine being there. Accidents happen all the time. I find myself more and more inclined over time to consider that this is all accidental.

GirlyMan, thanks for your thoughts. I don't want to wrangle and I don't want to upset you (or anyone else) and I don't want to pontificate. My opinions don't matter at all so I have tried to base them on how I understand truth, and truth is true for all.

Please don't think I am trying to be inflammatory, I am just asking questions that seem sensible and I hope appeal to your mind.

You don't believe that the awesome universe we have that is beyond our exploration and comprehension just happened to be, from nothing do you?
The brain, the human body, the uniqueness of people, the innumerable kinds of animals, insects, birds, etc...all the materials we need to build things and power things conveniently being from the earth we were given to live on, just happened by accident?

God has extravegantly created this universe and allowed us to see it with powerful telescopes and microscopes for the purpose of acknowledging him. He has over done it. Does he need such a vast universe? No.

Does he need to make so many different things? No. It is overkill. He does it so we ask the question-who made all this and why? That is a great first step.

Can you tell me how you have come to think "that this is all accidental", and more so over time? What fuels this understanding? What would have to happen for you to acknowledge the existence of a divine being.

I beg to differ on accidents, there is no such thing. God takes responsibility for causing or allowing all things. Nothing happens by accident. Jesus wasn't crucified by accident either. Everything went according to God's plan before he even created the world. The fall of man? God knew that would happen when he made people. God created Satan knowing he would rebel against him. God has always been in total control of everything. No one has anything on him. The idea of accidents negates God from the affairs of the world.

Do you consider yourself an accident? If you do, you have no more inherent worth than a five pound dumbell on the gym rack or the chalk people rub in their hands, and nothing you do makes any difference, and will all be forgotten.

Depressing, but logical. You could change your handle from GirlyMan to NothingMan or HopelessMan.

Thankfully, because of the bible, I don't consider myself an accident, rather someone made uniquely with a unique purpose and a unique future that hinges on how much I acknowledge God's reign of my life while I have it and what I do with it. I am as imperfect as anyone, but not an accident.

I am the only me there is or can be and so I have an obligation to use my life a certain way. Everything about me was designed differently than anyone else who will ever live, and that is true of you as well. That makes us special.

But GirlyMan you are not an accident and were created by God with the same intrinsic value as anyone else who has lived, and God made sure to design you with your strengths and weaknesses. Your limitations are by God's design too, your personality, your looks, the works.

He has determined how long you will live and how you will die and whether you believe he exists or not, you will be held accountable by him for how you lived your life. If you don't believe in God, I believe you will have to have lived a morally perfect life to live forever, and you were born incapable of doing that.

I want you to live with purpose now and forever, that is why I am trying to explain this to you. I am not interested in proving you wrong, only to open your eyes to a reality you have not perceived or don't know what to make of or maybe don't like the implications of.

If you have the time, please answer the few questions I bolded. I have tried to be transparent and take your comments seriously.

Bob

[GirlyMan]

Please don't think I am trying to be inflammatory, I am just asking questions that seem sensible and I hope appeal to your mind.

You're not, and they do.


You don't believe that the awesome universe we have that is beyond our exploration and comprehension just happened to be, from nothing do you?

Well I don't believe much of anything, but I am seriously considering that particular hypothesis.


Can you tell me how you have come to think "that this is all accidental", and more so over time? What fuels this understanding?

Nope. And it's not so much an understanding as a gut feeling.


What would have to happen for you to acknowledge the existence of a divine being.[/B]

Good question. Dunno. Can't think of anything off the top of my head.


Do you consider yourself an accident? If you do, you have no more inherent worth than a five pound dumbell on the gym rack or the chalk people rub in their hands, and nothing you do makes any difference, and will all be forgotten.

Yeah, that's it.


Depressing, but logical. You could change your handle from GirlyMan to NothingMan or HopelessMan.

But would I still be able to enjoy cooking and gardening with those new monikers? I think I'll stick with GirlyMan.


I am not interested in proving you wrong, only to open your eyes to a reality you have not perceived or don't know what to make of or maybe don't like the implications of.

As a child I attended a Lutheran parochial school from Kindergarten through 9th grade. I have read the Bible cover-to-cover multiple times. That experience has made me what I am and I wouldn't give it up for anything. Is there a different reality from that which you wish to show me?

Thanks Bob,
Robert

[00slotiv]

[QUOTE=GirlyMan;46042]You're not, and they do.

Thanks for your responses. I could just kill myself right now as I just lost my almost finished reply and don't have the time to recall it all. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Awful thing to say but I am not happy with myself.

This will not reflect the time I put into the other one. I want you to know I take all you said seriously.

Well I don't believe much of anything, but I am seriously considering that particular hypothesis.

Nope. And it's not so much an understanding as a gut feeling.

Honest reply about the possible accidental nature of life. You know what they say about the reliability of feelings.


Good question. Dunno. Can't think of anything off the top of my head.

I wonder what it would have took for people in biblical times to believe. Since you have read the bible your are aware how despite living a morally perfect life and performing many miracles, Jesus was put to death. I think these people wanted a political leader and if Jesus said he was going to change things politically, more people may have believed in him, but for the wrong reasons.

Nevertheless, I would wager that today, things wouldn't be any different. Some wouldn't believe in God if he was standing in front of them, living with them, performing miracles, displaying unprecedented wisdom.

What is scary is that people DID worship gods made of stone or wood. They worshiped the planets, they worshipped mythical gods. In one place in the bible it says some have made their belly their god! You remember the parable of the rich man and Lazarus? The rich man was told no one would believe even if someone came back from the dead to warn them of the reality of a place called hell.

So we are designed with a bent to worship something, even the extreme and ludicrous. I just want you to be able to use your mind when answering the question "what would it take for you to believe in a divine being".


Yeah, that's it.

C'mon, your church experience couldn't have taught you that you, and by extention, all of us are an accident. I hope you become uncomfortable with that possibility. We all want significance and worth, and since we are made in the image of God, we have it.

No one else in the history of time will ever be specially ordered like you, to have God given responsibilites only you can fulfill, ever! Now if you wake up each day with that on your mind, you could appreciate (not be wrongly proud of) how God made you and that you can please him by being involved in those endeavors.

(can't help but mention that our actions have the ability to please God or as he says somewhere "grieve the Holy Spirit" so again, this indicates the relationship of Christianity over against other religions)

But would I still be able to enjoy cooking and gardening with those new monikers? I think I'll stick with GirlyMan.

Yes. Those inclinations are God given. The main concern I have is doing so without reverence or acknowledgment for the One who made you to enjoy doing that. I contend our lives have meaning only when a divine being creates us and gives us our purposes. If one believes they are an accident, it is impossible to have healthy self esteem. Or if they consider themselves an accident, they could be smug and proud when comparing themselves with someone else.

The non-accidental nature of our creation allows for no one to be more inherently valuable than anyone else, so no one needs to compare themselves with anyone else, in any way. No one is better, all are unique, special.

As a child I attended a Lutheran parochial school from Kindergarten through 9th grade. I have read the Bible cover-to-cover multiple times. That experience has made me what I am and I wouldn't give it up for anything. Is there a different reality from that which you wish to show me?

Here is where I need clarification Robert. I grew up in a Lutheran church too. When you say the experience has made you what you are and you wouldn't give it up for anything, yet you say you have trouble believing in things (paraphrasing), think you are an accident, and don't have a clear recognition of THE divine being, then I am confused.

What exactly was your experience?

Did reading the bible several times lead to too many unanswered questions or apparent contradictions?

Did the typical liturgical style seem too impersonal and unemotional?

Are you influenced one way or the other by your parent's faith?

Were you turned off by hypocrisy?

Thanks again for helping me understand where you are coming from.

Please help me with your "different reality" comment too. I don't know what you mean.

Bob

[GirlyMan]

Can you tell me how you have come to think "that this is all accidental", and more so over time? What fuels this understanding?

Nope. And it's not so much an understanding as a gut feeling.

Honest reply about the possible accidental nature of life. You know what they say about the reliability of feelings.
Ummm ... when in doubt go with your gut?


Do you consider yourself an accident? If you do, you have no more inherent worth than a five pound dumbell on the gym rack or the chalk people rub in their hands, and nothing you do makes any difference, and will all be forgotten.

Yeah, that's it.

C'mon, your church experience couldn't have taught you that you, and by extention, all of us are an accident. I hope you become uncomfortable with that possibility. We all want significance and worth, and since we are made in the image of God, we have it.
My church experience did not teach me that. And yes, your extension logically follows. I have been working for decades to not only not be uncomfortable with that possibility, but to embrace it. And the fundamental goal of this enterprise has been to desire neither significance nor worth (nor anything else, for that matter).


Please help me with your "different reality" comment too. I don't know what you mean.
I find the concept of the post-mortem preservation of identity alien. Any philosophy which promises "eternal reward" (or the like in some form or another) presupposes this. There are philosophies which do not assume this. I have been looking at those.

[00slotiv]

Ummm ... when in doubt go with your gut?

My church experience did not teach me that. And yes, your extension logically follows. I have been working for decades to not only not be uncomfortable with that possibility, but to embrace it. And the fundamental goal of this enterprise has been to desire neither significance nor worth (nor anything else, for that matter).

I find the concept of the post-mortem preservation of identity alien. Any philosophy which promises "eternal reward" (or the like in some form or another) presupposes this. There are philosophies which do not assume this. I have been looking at those.

GirlyMan, in my opinion every human being is born (created) with an inherent thirst for eternity, significance and worth. I wish I could understand where you are coming from so I have quite a few short questions.

You already have significance and worth, yet don't seem to want to recognize the one who gave it to you. Maybe because that implies some kind of obligation to that creator? What is so bad about that?

Wouldn't a world where no one has significance or worth be demoralizing and without direction, and therefore without success? No one would have to give account of anything (to God).

Do you believe in eternal life? You don't seem excited about eternal reward.

Would you rather live in something like the disappointing world we live in today? What is so wonderful about it? For every good there is a bad. I can't even get people to return phone calls, which drives me crazy. The realities of this life should stir us to want something better. We intuitively know there has got to be something better than this.

Post-mortem preservation of identity. Do you like the identity you have now? I believe our identity to be designed so fully to the satisfaction of God that, even though marred by sin, it is still in the image of God and will, in eternity, be absolutely fully realized, without the baggage of today.

All the strengths will be sharpened to their capacity, all the best of us will be shown and known for all eternity. This is exciting to me, and I am not being proud. It seems an honor to me to be purposely created a certain way by God, a way that can't be compared to anyone else, unique and good, and to be able to have that heightened to its inherent best forever.

Eternal rewards imply being rewarded for pleasing God in some way. That means doing what he says to do. Is this something you don't like?

The Christian believes their eternal reward is based 100 % on being achieved by God's grace. It isn't given based on our function apart from him. It isn't based on being better than anyone else.

You might remember Jesus commanding his followers to "Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven". He wants people to store up eternal blessings based on their work and sacrifice for him. Even suffering for him does the same. People store up here on earth, but that will all be destroyed. I would think his promise to reward us eternally to the degree we follow him on earth is too good to pass up.

GirlyMan, you said you've been working for decades to embrace the position that life has no meaning and that there isn't a divine being. Why has it taken so long and are you closer to being convinced?

What are the positives you are expecting if you were to successfully be convinced of these philosophies that rule out eternal reward?
What will it take for you to know you have arrived at a decision?
What do you think will be more satisfying about it than the conventional biblical norms you were exposed to when you were younger?
Would you be willing to teach it as absolute truth to the whole world? If not, why?

Do you dislike God calling you (and all of us) sinners and that no one deserves eternal life?
Do you dislike the idea of God deciding for us what is right and wrong?
Do you dislike the idea that you are who God made you and no more?
Do you think that those who believe in a divine being aren't thinking for themselves?
What are you going to teach your children about God?

Life is eternal. There is a life eternal and a death eternal that is being alive without all that makes it real life (God) in a place far more abject that the worst day on earth. I just hate to see you apparently trying to squeeze God out of your life, making life on earth confusing and unfulfilling, because to spend eternity without him would be miserable to the highest degree.

Bob

[may19th2001]

Our new President has a new attorney general.

What is next in the works, Cliton and young man bush have done so much in regards to gearing Dr's away from Hormones and the reproductive system.

Clition signed a lot of laws and bills to make it illegal for a stem cell transplant, however a sucessful Dr I had spoken to in the US who has done some of this work when it was still legal would have assisted me if I had the moeny, I will not disclose any Physicians names this one is still in practice however he is very weary of doing it. It would be good money and a person favor.

Thanks to our good Presidents they try to leave us in the dest, look at the real superman in his wheel chair he wanted stem cells look what bush did, however he sure outsourced some labs and a lot of things in regards to stem cells.

Stem cells can even be grown from your own cells, xeno graphs have been shown to be sucessful.

I have a medical book that has all the details about stem cells relating to the reproductive system as well as transplants for some reason it is no longer published it is fromthe mid 90's then the good Pres Bill Clition went and did what he did to make it illegal for me to have such a thing done in the USA. That is why so many rich people as well as others travel to get medical treatment in

I respect Nancy Regan for trying so hard to back up stem cells.

I am all for stem cells ethecial in ones opinion or not I think it is all the way ethecial. Heck I could go to another country and get stem cell treatment if I were rich, mabye I would be in worse debt like Michal Jackson RIP was.

It is quite a shame that we are so behind in medicine when we actually have the techonology to have it, however uncle sam wants complete control over our lives and health.

I remembr one time a large semi had a huge load of radioactive waste on I-25 which is o if it may be leacking through the top,the governemnt can pollutte and hurt others as they wish.

The government is only taking more and more rights away from us.

With this newPresident he wants to take all away.

If he corrupts the medical system and makes it where we can not even pay to see our own Private Dr's I can guarantee more people will go to Mexico for medcial treatment including myself living about 1hr well now about 1 hr 30 min away. They are much less regualted and open minded.

I think the government needs to stop controlling our life so much.

Off the slick sliding soap box now.

**My personal opinion no Pun intended just opinion.**

[joe143]

.

If he corrupts the medical system and makes it where we can not even pay to see our own Private Dr's I can guarantee more people will go to Mexico for medcial treatment including myself living about 1hr well now about 1 hr 30 min away. They are much less regualted and open minded.

I think the government needs to stop controlling our life so much.

Off the slick sliding soap box now.

**My personal opinion no Pun intended just opinion.**

I don't see how that could happen. The issue is insurance and money. The problem will be insurance dictating what doctor you can and can't see. If you are paying a private doctor what right does the government have to tell you no.

[may19th2001]

I would say!
I am hoping that is the way it goes, I want to see what Dr I want to see and not be on a waiting list to go see one due to socialized medicine.

If this were to have been done it should have been done when JFK was president.

His plan may have worked much better, now the government has so many things so governed it is not even funny, mabye the government will put even more restrictions on what you can and can not get perhaps.

Not to change the subject:

Heck and they want to do away with compounds I would see to it one of my Dr's she would fill out a form for me to be able to get Androgel or Testim at no cost to me but the drug company when you have kids going to college and being laid off of your job then you should be able to get this.

I know this one guy who gets his Androgel at no charge because his Dr gets it for him through the frug company. Anyway I am the one that had shown him the ropes he pays $ 0.00 for his 10 mg of androgel a day.




I don't see how that could happen. The issue is insurance and money. The problem will be insurance dictating what doctor you can and can't see. If you are paying a private doctor what right does the government have to tell you no.

[snook]

Study it closely folks...coming soon to a theater near you. Elections have consequences.

http://docs.house.gov/gopleader/House-Democrats-Health-Plan.pdf
:thumbdown:

[may19th2001]

AMA Supports Health System Reform (HSR)
AMA supports the achievement of meaningful health system reform, which follows six key concepts:

1.Expanded coverage
2.Improve quality
3.Reform government programs
4.Reduce costs
5.Increased focus on wellness/prevention
6.Payment and delivery reforms
To learn more about the AMA’s position on HSR read the AMA’s six guiding principles on HSR, and our recent HSR news releases and statements. For even more information be sure to review the numerous HSR articles published by AMNews. To receive regular updates, subscribe to the HSR Bulletin e-newsletter.

There are a number of ways you can support the AMA’s efforts for meaningful HSR reform. If you are a physician, please consider joining the AMA and our Physicians’ Grassroots Network. If you are a member of the general public you can get involved by joining the AMA’s Patient Action Network.

[may19th2001]

I have no respect for AMA Physicians and members due to various reasons none of my Dr's are AMA members and they have done the best with me.

I have been happier with non member AMA physicians as they appear to better assist.

A former internist still licensend however he has had a stroke (Deleted MD's name) was an AMA member and I think should have treated my infection more seriousley and vigirousley than he did but at least I am doing much better after all the after effects and having things back to normal, I will post further on this on my other post at a later time.

Home from work soon shower and then bed, thought I would share this information.

Wish I had more time on here family life is busy and I am planning on going back to College for nursing since I am being laid of off the job I have had for a few years. Without the good help of my Dr's I would not be progressing in life.

Heck when they (the government) are done we will be paying cash for everything we have done by our own private physicians as long as they do not take control over or medical fees to not siginifiantley as well as substantually increase I think I will just be fine and happy.

Reform of the medical system.

something that should have been done if it was going to be done in the senate and cabinet when JFk was President, it may have worked out better as long as the government did not take over more control.

AMA Supports Health System Reform (HSR)
AMA supports the achievement of meaningful health system reform, which follows six key concepts:

1.Expanded coverage
2.Improve quality
3.Reform government programs
4.Reduce costs
5.Increased focus on wellness/prevention
6.Payment and delivery reforms
To learn more about the AMA’s position on HSR read the AMA’s six guiding principles on HSR, and our recent HSR news releases and statements. For even more information be sure to review the numerous HSR articles published by AMNews. To receive regular updates, subscribe to the HSR Bulletin e-newsletter.

There are a number of ways you can support the AMA’s efforts for meaningful HSR reform. If you are a physician, please consider joining the AMA and our Physicians’ Grassroots Network. If you are a member of the general public you can get involved by joining the AMA’s Patient Action Network.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I am starting to agree with you Doctor John.

Should we be concerned about our future ability to get the HRT we have now? Will it just take longer to get prescriptions, will we be allowed fewer and less frequent tests? Will it be more difficult to convince the government that hormone deficiency should be treated at all?

Thanks.

Bob
If a "HillaryCare" type program is implemented, doctors would be imprisoned for accepting private patients. That would put me, and other Anti-Aging Medicine doctors, out of business.

Then all of you, since only "approved" medical care by the governement will be allowed, will be SOL. Do you think there is ANY chance that will include the treatments we discuss--and you need--here?

The Amercian people have bought a pig in a poke. The Dems are going to shove it down our throats. They have been handed complete control over this country, thanks to the corrupt liberal media, and they are going to invoke their Big Government control over every aspect of our lives. Is this "Change You Can Believe In"?

There ARE those of us who saw this coming.

[Wise Guy]

If a "HillaryCare" type program is implemented, doctors would be imprisoned for accepting private patients. That would put me, and other Anti-Aging Medicine doctors, out of business.

Then all of you, since only "approved" medical care by the governement will be allowed, will be SOL. Do you think there is ANY chance that will include the treatments we discuss--and you need--here?



Certainly this cannot be true. They cannot tell us who we can and cannot see if we are paying for it out of pocket, right?

And they cannot tell you how to do your job....right?

Hmmmmm.

I have a friend that worked on the Obama campaign and works closely with the Dem's here in Michigan, and know of another prominent Dem who sits on a council here in SE michigan.

I will ask them about it.

[gman]

Still can't figure out how having a government sponsored insurance plan is socialized medicine and government run health care....hmmm.

Even in Mexico where there is socialized medicine, you can still go to a private clinic and pay out of pocket for almost anything.

[revo39564]

I have saw this coming...... I have been a RN for 6 years now..just recently received my nurse practitioner degree and passed boards. I am not looking for an NP job now because I make more money as a staff RN (unique position) and have awesome benefits,,,,,,,one month off a year! But the ANA (american nurses association) is staffed with liberal fools......they always blindly back a Dem for president beacause they want universal healhcare and nurse staffing mandated ratios........ Nurses are the biggest payroll in the hospital....our pay would have to be cut for "cost savings" for the federal government.

Why the hell would a person go to medical school/college for over a decade to work in a socialized healthcare environment? Why would they go 250,000 plus in debt to earn $100,000- 120,000 a year?





The government only has the power we give it........

[gman]

I have saw this coming...... I have been a RN for 6 years now..just recently received my nurse practitioner degree and passed boards. I am not looking for an NP job now because I make more money as a staff RN (unique position) and have awesome benefits,,,,,,,one month off a year! But the ANA (american nurses association) is staffed with liberal fools......they always blindly back a Dem for president beacause they want universal healhcare and nurse staffing mandated ratios........ Nurses are the biggest payroll in the hospital....our pay would have to be cut for "cost savings" for the federal government.

Why the hell would a person go to medical school/college for over a decade to work in a socialized healthcare environment? Why would they go 250,000 plus in debt to earn $100,000- 120,000 a year?





The government only has the power we give it........

Maybe because they want to help people????

I thought that was the point of being a health care professional.

I think that is what a big problem is. I remember people in college majoring in pre-med so they could become a doctor because "I can make a lot of money." Never heard anyone say they were becoming a doctor to help people.

[revo39564]

"Still can't figure out how having a government sponsored insurance plan is socialized medicine and government run health care....hmmm."

Because Obama is smart.....he is not getting rid of choice........there will be a Federal government program for those who cannot get regular insurance......Well guess what....most employers are going to use the Federal plan because it is cheaper......

Just like HMO's the federal government will probably have a list of covered treatments and medicines..........and they may have treatment guidelines..They have been talking about this alot........ No more MRI/CT just in case, no more battery of lab test being used. SCARY PART: through the use of ELECTRONIC RECORDS the government can make sure you are going by their guidelines based on the DRG/ treatment codes......this could be a simple computer program that flags improper plans and will deny payment or punish the provider.

So basically it is not a true socialized medicine plan but in the end the vast majority of citizens will be on the "Federal plan."

[00slotiv]

If a "HillaryCare" type program is implemented, doctors would be imprisoned for accepting private patients. That would put me, and other Anti-Aging Medicine doctors, out of business.

Then all of you, since only "approved" medical care by the governement will be allowed, will be SOL. Do you think there is ANY chance that will include the treatments we discuss--and you need--here?

The Amercian people have bought a pig in a poke. The Dems are going to shove it down our throats. They have been handed complete control over this country, thanks to the corrupt liberal media, and they are going to invoke their Big Government control over every aspect of our lives. Is this "Change You Can Believe In"?

There ARE those of us who saw this coming.

This is unconscionable. Doctor John, what, if anything, can HRT patients do about this? Denying some of us HRT would result in a slow death.

Bob

[revo39564]

Oh..I see this is all about payback to the docs because they "earn to much"

My point is why would someone get so many debts in school and not have the means to repay them? Hell if they want to help people they could have been nurses...lol.........I know there are those that want the "pay" and those that want the "prestige" but I think anyone that invest 10+ years in college should have a very comfortable pay level.

Basically what will happen is MD enrollment by people born in this country will fall.....more people from overseas will fill the med school slots and become docs here....
and many of them are fine people.... I have seen the great VA and state ran health care...........

[crazycrew]

This was sent to me via Email


FINALLY...THE $50,000 QUESTION WAS ASKED !!!!!..... On 7/13/09 ON THE "ABC.. OBAMA SPECIAL ON HEALTH CARE"......OBAMA WAS ASKED "MR. PRESIDENT WILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY GIVE UP YOUR CURRENT HEALTH CARE PROGRAM AND JOIN THE NEW "UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE PROGRAM" THAT THE REST OF US WILL BE ON ????.....OBAMA IGNORED THE QUESTION AND DIDN'T ANSWER IT !!!.....A NUMBER OF SENATORS WERE ASKED THE SAME QUESTION AND THERE RESPONSE WAS...WE WILL THINK ABOUT IT !!!!



IT WAS ALSO ANNOUNCED on 7/14/09 ON THE NEWS THAT THE "KENNEDY HEALTH CARE BILL"....HAS WRITTEN INTO IT THAT CONGRESS WILL BE ( FROM THIS GREAT HEALTH CARE PLAN)..EXEMPT !!!!!

[crazycrew]

A month ago my old lady had a spill on her bike. She spent less than 3 hours in a local ER (mostly waiting). 30 minutes with a nurse, 5 minutes with a Dr, 3 xrays, some bandages and a shot for pain.
Total bill over $6000.00

Yea,,,Things are great.

Oh yea,, shes doing fine now. Going back to work next week. Can't say the same for the bike.

[Bulldog]

This was sent to me via Email


FINALLY...THE $50,000 QUESTION WAS ASKED !!!!!..... On 7/13/09 ON THE "ABC.. OBAMA SPECIAL ON HEALTH CARE"......OBAMA WAS ASKED "MR. PRESIDENT WILL YOU AND YOUR FAMILY GIVE UP YOUR CURRENT HEALTH CARE PROGRAM AND JOIN THE NEW "UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE PROGRAM" THAT THE REST OF US WILL BE ON ????.....OBAMA IGNORED THE QUESTION AND DIDN'T ANSWER IT !!!.....A NUMBER OF SENATORS WERE ASKED THE SAME QUESTION AND THERE RESPONSE WAS...WE WILL THINK ABOUT IT !!!!



IT WAS ALSO ANNOUNCED on 7/14/09 ON THE NEWS THAT THE "KENNEDY HEALTH CARE BILL"....HAS WRITTEN INTO IT THAT CONGRESS WILL BE ( FROM THIS GREAT HEALTH CARE PLAN)..EXEMPT !!!!!

This is the problem with almost everything in government. Our government representatives do not have to live by the same means as the average citizen. They have their own health care, their own retirement programs and they can vote their own pay raises. The day the people of this country can decide on what our government representatives can and can not do is the day things get better.

If they require everyone else to do it then then should be required to do it as well.

[joe143]

Certainly this cannot be true. They cannot tell us who we can and cannot see if we are paying for it out of pocket, right?

And they cannot tell you how to do your job....right?

Hmmmmm.

I have a friend that worked on the Obama campaign and works closely with the Dem's here in Michigan, and know of another prominent Dem who sits on a council here in SE michigan.

I will ask them about it.

That's what I always thought. If they can truly dictate what doctor we can see regardless that we will pay out of pocket, then God help this country.

[JanSz]

This is the problem with almost everything in government. Our government representatives do not have to live by the same means as the average citizen. They have their own health care, their own retirement programs and they can vote their own pay raises. The day the people of this country can decide on what our government representatives can and can not do is the day things get better.

If they require everyone else to do it then then should be required to do it as well.

EXACTLY as in communist Poland

Communist Poland used to be a
fantastic place
for Communist Party Members (ONLY)

the balance of people (over 95%) were working for them.


For example, communist Party members
used different money,
used different stores,
they were getting vouchers allowing them to buy certain desirable items
(yes, with his own money, average citizen was not allowed to buy certain stuff)
if average citizen appeared to live beyond expected means hi was granted additional taxation


This is our (near) future,
all voted for us by Acorn and illegals
and a President who is not even American Citizen

Have you heard of another Acorn (type) of organization helping us?

How many Acorns do we have?
.
.

[crazycrew]

Snopes.com said this information was mostly true. Even if partially true, what an arrogant, callous, pompous ass Obama is…..this is a dangerous man, God help us….

THIS IS OUR PRESIDENTS RESPONSE WHEN HE BACKED OFF HIS ANNOUNCED DECISION TO LET OUR MILITARY PAY FOR THEIR WAR INJURIES.

Bad press, including major mockery of the plan by comedian Jon Stewart, led to President Obama abandoning his proposal to require veterans carry private health insurance to cover the estimated $540 million annual cost to the federal government of treatment for injuries to military personnel received during their tours on active duty. The President admitted that he was puzzled by the magnitude of the opposition to his proposal.

"Look, it's an all volunteer force," Obama complained... "Nobody made these guys go to war. They had to have known and accepted the risks. Now they whine about bearing the costs of their choice? It doesn't compute.." "I thought these were people who were proud to sacrifice for their country," Obama continued. "I wasn't asking for blood, just money. With the country facing the worst financial crisis in its history, I'd have thought that the patriotic thing to do would be to try to help reduce the nation's deficit. I guess I underestimated the selfishness of some of my fellow Americans."

[Teegunn]

Snopes.com said this information was mostly true. Even if partially true, what an arrogant, callous, pompous ass Obama is…..this is a dangerous man, God help us….

THIS IS OUR PRESIDENTS RESPONSE WHEN HE BACKED OFF HIS ANNOUNCED DECISION TO LET OUR MILITARY PAY FOR THEIR WAR INJURIES.

Bad press, including major mockery of the plan by comedian Jon Stewart, led to President Obama abandoning his proposal to require veterans carry private health insurance to cover the estimated $540 million annual cost to the federal government of treatment for injuries to military personnel received during their tours on active duty. The President admitted that he was puzzled by the magnitude of the opposition to his proposal.

"Look, it's an all volunteer force," Obama complained... "Nobody made these guys go to war. They had to have known and accepted the risks. Now they whine about bearing the costs of their choice? It doesn't compute.." "I thought these were people who were proud to sacrifice for their country," Obama continued. "I wasn't asking for blood, just money. With the country facing the worst financial crisis in its history, I'd have thought that the patriotic thing to do would be to try to help reduce the nation's deficit. I guess I underestimated the selfishness of some of my fellow Americans."

The statement itself was satire - made up - from what I understand. That doesn't mean I'm happy about where this country seems to be heading in regards to health care. The tax and spend dems have a blank checkbook and they apparently want to use it liberally.

[GirlyMan]

Just like HMO's the federal government will probably have a list of covered treatments and medicines..........and they may have treatment guidelines..They have been talking about this alot........ No more MRI/CT just in case, no more battery of lab test being used.

Dude, if you want to know the health benefits federal employess enjoy (senators, congressmen, presidents, clerks, peons, etc.) just check out Federal Employee Health Benefits (http://www.opm.gov/INSURE/HEALTH/INDEX.ASP).

There ain't no quotas, there ain't no treatment guidelines, there ain't no restrictions, there are only options from multiple private insurance companies. You choose the coverage you want. (And, notably, a federal employee can elect not to have any health insurance if they so desire.)

Other than the prohibitive cost to taxpayers (Government covers 75% of premiums for employees), this would seem to be an excellent model to start with.

You want to foster competition? Make the group as big as possible.

[biceps72]

Dude, if you want to know the health benefits federal employess enjoy (senators, congressmen, presidents, clerks, peons, etc.) just check out Federal Employee Health Benefits (http://www.opm.gov/INSURE/HEALTH/INDEX.ASP).

There ain't no quotas, there ain't no treatment guidelines, there ain't no restrictions, there are only options from multiple private insurance companies. You choose the coverage you want. (And, notably, a federal employee can elect not to have any health insurance if they so desire.)

Other than the prohibitive cost to taxpayers (Government covers 75% of premiums for employees), this would seem to be an excellent model to start with.

You want to foster competition? Make the group as big as possible.

excellent post and very accurate!

If people think competition is the key to health care woes then "let them compete" against what is already in place.

I don't want to see this break down to a political argument because the problem trancends politics by a very long way.

[Bulldog]

Dude, if you want to know the health benefits federal employess enjoy (senators, congressmen, presidents, clerks, peons, etc.) just check out Federal Employee Health Benefits (http://www.opm.gov/INSURE/HEALTH/INDEX.ASP).

There ain't no quotas, there ain't no treatment guidelines, there ain't no restrictions, there are only options from multiple private insurance companies. You choose the coverage you want. (And, notably, a federal employee can elect not to have any health insurance if they so desire.)

Other than the prohibitive cost to taxpayers (Government covers 75% of premiums for employees), this would seem to be an excellent model to start with.

You want to foster competition? Make the group as big as possible.

But they probably won't offer those same benefits to us lowly citizens. Just like we don't get their retirement plan.

[GirlyMan]

But they probably won't offer those same benefits to us lowly citizens. Just like we don't get their retirement plan.

Well, you could always ask (or in the extreme case, demand) for those same benefits to be offered to us lowly citizens.

[Bulldog]

Well, you could always ask (or in the extreme case, demand) for those same benefits to be offered to us lowly citizens.

I would be amazed if we have any say in what is offered to us. Although that is how things should work, unfortunately they usually don't.

[GirlyMan]

I would be amazed if we have any say in what is offered to us. Although that is how things should work, unfortunately they usually don't.

Doesn't mean we should give up. That's how it's supposed to work. Keep on tryin' or just bail. Up to you ... and me.

[Bulldog]

Doesn't mean we should give up. That's how it's supposed to work. Keep on tryin' or just bail. Up to you ... and me.

:boxing_smiley:

[may19th2001]

Joe my friend if uncle sam gets the way we will be told what we can and can not get, what Dr we can and can not see, what medical treatment we can and can not get.

It is not a lie...

[may19th2001]

It is just hideous the government wants to have complete control and take over our lives.

We will be SOL and suffering very badly.

I sure hope that it does not get to that point, what would all of us do that need our own private physician and unique care that can only be rovided with the health care system the way it is.

This is not acceptable for an American citizen and a free country.

This is not a free country, more and more rights are being taken away daily.




If a "HillaryCare" type program is implemented, doctors would be imprisoned for accepting private patients. That would put me, and other Anti-Aging Medicine doctors, out of business.

Then all of you, since only "approved" medical care by the governement will be allowed, will be SOL. Do you think there is ANY chance that will include the treatments we discuss--and you need--here?

The Amercian people have bought a pig in a poke. The Dems are going to shove it down our throats. They have been handed complete control over this country, thanks to the corrupt liberal media, and they are going to invoke their Big Government control over every aspect of our lives. Is this "Change You Can Believe In"?

There ARE those of us who saw this coming.

[may19th2001]

I told you bro this is real and it is a huge mess.

I had this discussion with an older lady at work and no you will not even be able to see a private Dr, heck does that mean I will have to go to Mexico to get treatment and live like a normal human...

We had better hope the government does not get this passed we will be down the Rio Grande without a paddle.


That's what I always thought. If they can truly dictate what doctor we can see regardless that we will pay out of pocket, then God help this country.

[may19th2001]

"Thats why Mr President said it will be just like my insurance for all citizens."

I am sick of this medical reform and they have make it really juicy.

This means that uncle sam will say if you keep your manhood or not....


This is the problem with almost everything in government. Our government representatives do not have to live by the same means as the average citizen. They have their own health care, their own retirement programs and they can vote their own pay raises. The day the people of this country can decide on what our government representatives can and can not do is the day things get better.

If they require everyone else to do it then then should be required to do it as well.

[may19th2001]

We are turning into a communist country, oh I forogot it has already been headed this way for a long time.

We are more less turning into a commonuist china heck they will have more rights than we do if unclue sam keeps this work up.


EXACTLY as in communist Poland

Communist Poland used to be a
fantastic place
for Communist Party Members (ONLY)

the balance of people (over 95%) were working for them.


For example, communist Party members
used different money,
used different stores,
they were getting vouchers allowing them to buy certain desirable items
(yes, with his own money, average citizen was not allowed to buy certain stuff)
if average citizen appeared to live beyond expected means hi was granted additional taxation


This is our (near) future,
all voted for us by Acorn and illegals
and a President who is not even American Citizen

Have you heard of another Acorn (type) of organization helping us?

How many Acorns do we have?
.
.

[may19th2001]

Mr president did say it would be the same insurance he has that we would.

My wife asks what will happen to me I am like I guess I will have to go to Mexico get injections then come home or what...

I sure hope this does not go through.




Dude, if you want to know the health benefits federal employess enjoy (senators, congressmen, presidents, clerks, peons, etc.) just check out Federal Employee Health Benefits (http://www.opm.gov/INSURE/HEALTH/INDEX.ASP).

There ain't no quotas, there ain't no treatment guidelines, there ain't no restrictions, there are only options from multiple private insurance companies. You choose the coverage you want. (And, notably, a federal employee can elect not to have any health insurance if they so desire.)

Other than the prohibitive cost to taxpayers (Government covers 75% of premiums for employees), this would seem to be an excellent model to start with.

You want to foster competition? Make the group as big as possible.

[may19th2001]

It is true!

I have family deep into politics and no one listens they think I am a liar or something.

Dr Crsler is in fact correct and telling the truth about this.

I actaully had a discussion at work about this with an individual that is knowledgable about this, they are trying to turn the medical community into a Communist ran medical community we both agreed similar to China.




Certainly this cannot be true. They cannot tell us who we can and cannot see if we are paying for it out of pocket, right?

And they cannot tell you how to do your job....right?

Hmmmmm.

I have a friend that worked on the Obama campaign and works closely with the Dem's here in Michigan, and know of another prominent Dem who sits on a council here in SE michigan.

I will ask them about it.

[GirlyMan]

Joe my friend ...


It is just hidious the government wants to have complete control and take over our lives.



I told you bro this is real and it is a huge mess.


"Thats why Mr President said it will be just like my insurance for all citizens."


We are turning into a communist country, oh I forogot it has already been headed this way for a long time.


It is true!

Dude, you just need to relax and breathe.

[may19th2001]

Thanks bro I am just winding down from work and this topic is a rant and rave thread, so I felt I had to rant and rave a little.

I just do not feel the government needs to control our lives as much as they do.

Please accept my apology for any offense taken.


Dude, you just need to relax and breathe.

[GirlyMan]

GirlyMan, in my opinion every human being is born (created) with an inherent thirst for eternity, significance and worth.

Okay ... I don't dispute that, but I strive to deny it nonetheless.


You already have significance and worth, ...
I do? Or, equivalently, do I?


Do you believe in eternal life?
No. It's bulllshit.


GirlyMan, you said you've been working for decades to embrace the position that life has no meaning and that there isn't a divine being. Why has it taken so long and are you closer to being convinced?
Because recognizing one's own insignificance and impermanence is hard, laborious work.


What are you going to teach your children about God?
My progeny are fully aware of my philosophies.


Life is eternal.
Eternity is bullshit. Everything is temporary.

Thanks Bob,
Robert

[crazycrew]

It is true!

I have family deep into politics and no one listens they think I am a liar or something.

Dr Crsler is in fact correct and telling the truth about this.

I actaully had a discussion at work about this with an individual that is knowledgable about this, they are trying to turn the medical community into a Communist ran medical community we both agreed similar to China.

It sounds more and more like it will be a 5th or 6th branch of the military and all citizens are required to join. The IRS will is anouther branch.
--
Oh wait!!! Thats what you said isn't it.

[may19th2001]

tat is the sad truth about it we can not deny it however we had better hope it does not happen.
This will break a lot of us, this means some of us will have to let our Dr's go and the Dr's will have to let the patients go.



It sounds more and more like it will be a 5th or 6th branch of the military and all citizens are required to join. The IRS will is anouther branch.
--
Oh wait!!! Thats what you said isn't it.

[Wise Guy]

This is awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_Pk13FfFow&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.joerogan.net%2Fshowthread .php%3Ft%3D89505&feature=player_embedded

[crazycrew]

Obama's new Attorney General has already said this is one of his major issues.
This takes literally 2 clicks to complete. Please vote on this gun issue question with USA Today. It will only take a few seconds of your time.. Then pass the link on to all the pro gun folks you know. Hopefully these results will be published later this month. This upcoming year will become critical for gun owners with the Supreme Court accepting the District of Columbia case against the right for individuals to bear arms.
First - vote on this one.
Second - launch it to other folks and ask THEM vote.
Vote in the USA Today poll - click on the link below.

The Question is:
"Does the Second Amendment give individuals the right to bear arms?"

Vote at link below: Please

http://www.usatoday.com/news/quickquestion/2007/november/popup5895.htm

[crazycrew]

Why was the thread moved?

[JackBauer]

There ARE those of us who saw this coming.

Amazing, isn't it?

I find it hilarious as to one of the reasons they are using to push this agenda, is that costs are getting out of control and it's going to bankrupt our country.

So one of the things they want to do to reconcile this, is get everyone covered.

Yeah that will reduce costs. Absolute morons.

Yeah - competition will drive down prices and improve quality... Because, you know - there aren't enough private health insurance companies already. If we get just ONE more - one more really large one... The costs will plummet.

Again - absolute morons.

It's interesting that the President and those forcing this through Congress do not want to listen to one of the AMA and their position in malpractice lawsuits, which may not be the #1 cause of high costs, but it certainly is up there.

Instead to save costs we're going to provide subsidized healthcare to millions. (I'd have no problem doing so for those who legitimately cannot afford it AND are have a job and are working (hard) to provide for themselves and their family)

[JanSz]

No argument there. Part of the education was for us, the TRT patient community, to see what we are up against when seeing a Urologist or Endocrinologist for treatment. Although, if you read carefully, there is some dissension on Dx and treatment parameters at the Urology conferences.

You have to find a Doc who is willing to break ranks to treat what he sees as hypogonadism by symptoms and labs and not be so dogmatic in his approach.
Someone mentioned this in another discussion yesterday; the Doc will tow the line to dole out the guidance of his peers - but then will offer the astute patient a carrot.

We have on this board (Sargovar)

a sick young men and his sister

their father is highly placed doctor

he is not willing to break ranks.

...

[dano79]

Why do doctors tend to be so inflexible about such things? Is it easier just to believe that lab numbers are ABSOLUTE? It's really sad that you can be really sick, but not "sick" enough.

[canthavetoomanytoys]

I am VERY concerned, that the present direction of "fixing" the health care system will lead to more of this.

When U.S. politicians talk about how "so many people" are dissatisfied with healthcare it often relates to the degrees of limits and arbitrary limits, not always the care. I am generally happy with what healthcare provisions I have and I fight against any injustice I face.

Yes, it is true, that many suffer with no insurance safety nets. They get care, but often at the Emergency Room door, not by a regular physician or specialist. I think many Americans are willing to offer some support to help heal this problem, but only for legal citizens that are down on their luck. Off my soap box and back to the regular program....

[canthavetoomanytoys]

We have on this board (Sargovar) a sick young men and his sister _ their father is highly placed doctor _ he is not willing to break ranks.

I am truly sorry to hear that!

[bgnb]

Why do doctors tend to be so inflexible about such things? Is it easier just to believe that lab numbers are ABSOLUTE? It's really sad that you can be really sick, but not "sick" enough.

from day one in medical school they are told they stand above God ...

hard for most of them to climb off their pedestal and start thinking
for themselves ...

those who do realize that most 'medicine' is archaic, anachronistic
and antagonistic become more holistic ... and helpful ...

How bad is it ... ??? took years to get a simple vitamin deficiency diagnosed
by these 'gods' who believe they are infallible ... hell, even the Pope
doesn't make that claim anymore ...

Won't change the system until you change how things are done ... and
when those who 'buck the trend' are treated like outsiders or worse
we can wait a long time for things to change ...

sorry for the rant ... but have been tortured by too many incompetent
doctors to have much of an objective opinion anymore about many, but
not all, of them ...

[dano79]

bgnb... I've been tortured by many quacks myself, I can get a little bitter about it, almost fear going to the doctor now sometimes.


from day one in medical school they are told they stand above God ...

hard for most of them to climb off their pedestal and start thinking
for themselves ...

those who do realize that most 'medicine' is archaic, anachronistic
and antagonistic become more holistic ... and helpful ...

How bad is it ... ??? took years to get a simple vitamin deficiency diagnosed
by these 'gods' who believe they are infallible ... hell, even the Pope
doesn't make that claim anymore ...

Won't change the system until you change how things are done ... and
when those who 'buck the trend' are treated like outsiders or worse
we can wait a long time for things to change ...

sorry for the rant ... but have been tortured by too many incompetent
doctors to have much of an objective opinion anymore about many, but
not all, of them ...

[crazycrew]

It is June. It is raining, and the little city of Dothan looks totally deserted. It is tough times, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.

Suddenly, a rich tourist comes to town....

He stops at a cheap motel, lays a $100 bill on the counter, and goes to inspect the rooms in order to pick one.

The hotel proprietor takes the $100 bill and runs to pay his debt to the grocer.

The Butcher takes the $100 bill and runs to pay his debt to the farmer.

The farmer takes the $100 bill and runs to pay his debt to the supplier of his feed and fuel.

The supplier of feed and fuel takes the $100 bill and runs to pay his debt to the town's prostitute that in these hard times, gave her "services" on credit.

The prostitute runs to the hotel, and pays off her debt with the $100 bill to the hotel proprietor to pay for the rooms that she rented when she brought her clients there.

The hotel proprietor then lays the $100 bill back on the counter.

At that moment, the rich tourist comes down after inspecting the rooms, saying that he did not like any of the rooms and takes his $100 bill and leaves town.

No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now without debt, and looks to the future with a lot of optimism..

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the United States Government is doing business today.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Politicians no longer seek office in order to serve the People. Instead, they do so as if they are attaining a lofty position, comparable to the CEO of a large corporation. That is why they will say, and do, anything in order to empower themselves. They—and we—have truly lost our ways.

This is also why we have such amazingly incompetent individuals as “statesmen”. Maxine Waters isn’t intelligent enough to manage a McDonald’s. Yet she helps set public policy—and national defense. Christopher Dodd, Barney Frank, et al, blundering dunderheads now strut about because they have attained what they could not as high schoolers: power within their group.

We have truly chosen from amongst the least of us to lead us.

[crazycrew]

Sen. Cornyn Sends Letter To President Obama About "Fishy" Activities Program At White House

Sen. Cornyn appeared on Fox News today to discuss his letter to President Obama regarding the collection of emails and other communications opposing the President's health care policies.

In a letter to President Obama, Sen. Cornyn expressed serious concern about the White House's new program requesting Americans to forward email chains and other communications opposing the President's health care policies. Sen. Cornyn is seeking assurances that the program is being carried out in a manner consistent with the First Amendment and America's tradition of free speech and public discourse.

Sen. Cornyn's letter also inquires about the collection of names, email addresses, IP addresses, and private speech of U.S. citizens that will be reported, which raises the specter of a data collection program.

"I am not aware of any precedent for a President asking American citizens to report their fellow citizens to the White House for pure political speech that is deemed ‘fishy' or otherwise inimical to the White House's political interests," Sen. Cornyn wrote. "You should not be surprised that these actions taken by your White House staff raise the specter of a data collection program. As Congress debates health care reform and other critical policy matters, citizen engagement must not be chilled by fear of government monitoring the exercise of free speech rights."

--The full text of Sen. Cornyn's letter is below--

Dear President Obama,

I write to express my concern about a new White House program to monitor American citizens' speech opposing your health care policies, and to seek your assurances that this program is being carried out in a manner consistent with the First Amendment and America's tradition of free speech and public discourse.

Yesterday, in an official White House release entitled "Facts are Stubborn Things," the White House Director of New Media, Macon Phillips, asserted that there was "a lot of disinformation out there," and encouraged citizens to report "fishy" speech opposing your health care policies to the White House. Phillips specifically targeted private, unpublished, even casual speech, writing that "rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation." Phillips wrote "If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov."

I am not aware of any precedent for a President asking American citizens to report their fellow citizens to the White House for pure political speech that is deemed "fishy" or otherwise inimical to the White House's political interests.

By requesting that citizens send "fishy" emails to the White House, it is inevitable that the names, email addresses, IP addresses, and private speech of U.S. citizens will be reported to the White House. You should not be surprised that these actions taken by your White House staff raise the specter of a data collection program. As Congress debates health care reform and other critical policy matters, citizen engagement must not be chilled by fear of government monitoring the exercise of free speech rights.

I can only imagine the level of justifiable outrage had your predecessor asked Americans to forward emails critical of his policies to the White House. I suspect that you would have been leading the charge in condemning such a program-and I would have been at your side denouncing such heavy-handed government action.

So I urge you to cease this program immediately. At the very least, I request that you detail to Congress and the public the protocols that your White House is following to purge the names, email addresses, IP addresses, and identities of citizens who are reported to have engaged in "fishy" speech. And I respectfully request an answer to the following:

How do you intend to use the names, email addresses, IP addresses, and identities of citizens who are reported to have engaged in "fishy" speech?
How do you intend to notify citizens who have been reported for "fishy" speech?
What action do you intend to take against citizens who have been reported for engaging in "fishy" speech?
Do your own past statements qualify as "disinformation"? For example, is it "disinformation" to note that in 2003 you said:"I happen to be a proponent of a single-payer universal health care plan"?
I look forward to your prompt response.

Sincerely,

JOHN CORNYN
United States Senator

[may19th2001]

What in the world is wrong and has become of our government?



sen. Cornyn sends letter to president obama about "fishy" activities program at white house

sen. Cornyn appeared on fox news today to discuss his letter to president obama regarding the collection of emails and other communications opposing the president's health care policies.

In a letter to president obama, sen. Cornyn expressed serious concern about the white house's new program requesting americans to forward email chains and other communications opposing the president's health care policies. Sen. Cornyn is seeking assurances that the program is being carried out in a manner consistent with the first amendment and america's tradition of free speech and public discourse.

Sen. Cornyn's letter also inquires about the collection of names, email addresses, ip addresses, and private speech of u.s. Citizens that will be reported, which raises the specter of a data collection program.

"i am not aware of any precedent for a president asking american citizens to report their fellow citizens to the white house for pure political speech that is deemed ‘fishy' or otherwise inimical to the white house's political interests," sen. Cornyn wrote. "you should not be surprised that these actions taken by your white house staff raise the specter of a data collection program. As congress debates health care reform and other critical policy matters, citizen engagement must not be chilled by fear of government monitoring the exercise of free speech rights."

--the full text of sen. Cornyn's letter is below--

dear president obama,

i write to express my concern about a new white house program to monitor american citizens' speech opposing your health care policies, and to seek your assurances that this program is being carried out in a manner consistent with the first amendment and america's tradition of free speech and public discourse.

Yesterday, in an official white house release entitled "facts are stubborn things," the white house director of new media, macon phillips, asserted that there was "a lot of disinformation out there," and encouraged citizens to report "fishy" speech opposing your health care policies to the white house. Phillips specifically targeted private, unpublished, even casual speech, writing that "rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or through casual conversation." phillips wrote "if you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov."

i am not aware of any precedent for a president asking american citizens to report their fellow citizens to the white house for pure political speech that is deemed "fishy" or otherwise inimical to the white house's political interests.

By requesting that citizens send "fishy" emails to the white house, it is inevitable that the names, email addresses, ip addresses, and private speech of u.s. Citizens will be reported to the white house. You should not be surprised that these actions taken by your white house staff raise the specter of a data collection program. As congress debates health care reform and other critical policy matters, citizen engagement must not be chilled by fear of government monitoring the exercise of free speech rights.

I can only imagine the level of justifiable outrage had your predecessor asked americans to forward emails critical of his policies to the white house. I suspect that you would have been leading the charge in condemning such a program-and i would have been at your side denouncing such heavy-handed government action.

So i urge you to cease this program immediately. At the very least, i request that you detail to congress and the public the protocols that your white house is following to purge the names, email addresses, ip addresses, and identities of citizens who are reported to have engaged in "fishy" speech. And i respectfully request an answer to the following:

How do you intend to use the names, email addresses, ip addresses, and identities of citizens who are reported to have engaged in "fishy" speech?
How do you intend to notify citizens who have been reported for "fishy" speech?
What action do you intend to take against citizens who have been reported for engaging in "fishy" speech?
Do your own past statements qualify as "disinformation"? For example, is it "disinformation" to note that in 2003 you said:"i happen to be a proponent of a single-payer universal health care plan"?
I look forward to your prompt response.

Sincerely,

john cornyn
united states senator

[crazycrew]

the Senate voted this week to allow 'illegal' aliens access to Social Security benefits.

[crazycrew]

The next time you're gritting your teeth as you fill your tank with $4 gas, here's something to consider: Your pain is their gain.

The last of the Big Five oil companies announced first-quarter earnings Friday, so the totals are in. Between the five of them, ExxonMobil, BP, Shell, Chevron, and ConocoPhillips made $34 billion in profits in the first three months of 2011 -- up 42 percent from a year ago.

That's about $110 for every man, woman, and child in the United States -- in just three months.

Exxon alone cleared a cool $10.7 billion profit from January through March, up 69 percent from 2010. That's $82,175 a minute.

Why the staggering increase in earnings? Precisely because you're paying $4 a gallon for gas.

Gas prices shoot up when oil prices shoot up, and when oil prices shoot up for reasons that have nothing to do with how much it costs to bring it out of the ground, it's a windfall for the folks who produce it.

The average cost to produce a barrel of oil, including exploration, development, extraction and taxes, is about $30, according to a U.S. Energy Information Administration survey. The going rate to buy one is about 113.00

Why is the price so high? Part of it is increased demand and geopolitical worries. But no less an authority on the matter than Goldman Sachs acknowledged earlier this month that speculation is at least partially responsible, driving oil prices up faster and higher than supply and demand could possibly explain.

That means the people who are betting on oil prices are actually making the price of oil go up.

[hardasnails1973]

Your ability to absorb is an issue....OK if you are taking it where is it being metabolized to is my concern since there is land are ever posted to confirm. People have all these grear theories but little labs to validate.