supplements are bad

[brandO]

If you are taking vitamins you are filling your body with chemical shit made by a chemist in a lab and you will die sooner than you would if you did not take them. A chemist in a lab cannot make anything but a dead chemical that the body does not recognize as food and does its damndest to rid itself of the garbage.



Vitamin A-Beta-carotene - Methanol, benzene, petroleum esters; acetylene; refined oils

Vitamin B-1(Thiamine) - Coal tar derivatives, hydrochloric acid; acetonitrole with ammonia

Vitamin B-2 (Riboflavin) - Synthetically produced with 2N acetic acid

Vitamin B-3 (Niacin)- Coal tar derivatives, 3-cyanopyridine; ammonia and acid

Vitamin B-5(Pantothenic Acid)-Condensing isobutyraldehyde with formaldehyde

Vitamin B-6(Pyridoxine)-Petroleum ester & hydrochloric acid with formaldehyde

Vitamin B-8(Biotin)-Phytin hydrolyzed with calcium hydroxide and sulphuric acid

Vitamin B-9(Folic Acid)-Processed with petroleum derivatives and acids; acetylene

Vitamin B-12(Cobalamin)-Cobalamins reacted with cyanide

Vitamin 'B-x' PABA-Coal tar oxidized with nitric acid (from ammonia)

Vitamin B Factor Choline-Ethylene and ammonia with HCL or tartaric acid

Vitamin C-Hydrogenated sugar processed with acetone

Vitamin D-Irradiated animal fat/cattle brains or solvently extracted

Vitamin E-Trimethylhydroquinone with isophytol; refined oils

Vitamin K-Coal tar derivative; produced with p-allelic-nickel

Calcium carbonate is the rock known as limestone or chalk. Used in the manufacture of paint, rubber, plastics, ceramics, putty, polishes, insecticides, & inks. Used as a filler for adhesives, matches, pencils, crayons, linoleum, insulating compounds,
& welding rods

Selenomethionine is a selenium analog of methionine. It is used as a radioactive imaging agent

Chromium chloride is a preparation of hexahydrates. It is used as a corrosion inhibitor and waterproofing agent

Zinc carbonate is the rock known as smithsonite or zincspar. It is used to manufacture rubber



Zinc chloride is a combination of zinc and chlorine. It is used as an embalming material




Zinc citrate is smithsonite processed with citric acid. It is used in the manufacture of some toothpaste


Zinc gluconate is a zinc rock processed with gluconic acid. Gluconic acid is used in many cleaning compounds



Zinc lactate is smithsonite processed with lactic acid. Lactic acid lactate is used as a solvent




Zinc orotate is a zinc rock processed with orotic acid. Orotic acid is a uricosuric (promotes uric acid excretion)


Zinc oxide is the rock known as zincite. It is used as a pigment for white paint and as part of quick-drying cement




Zinc phosphate is the rock known as hopeite. It is used in dental cements



Zinc picolinate is a zinc rock processed with picolinic acid. Picolinic acid is used in herbicides



Zinc sulfate can be a rock processed with sulphuric acid. It is used as a corrosive in calico-printing and to preserve wood

[gman]

Wonder if the sailors back in the old days who died of scurvy would agree with your conclusion

[4aminsomniac]

Please post sources/references to back these claims up.

[SANDERS]

My Endo said the same...would like more info to make a believer of me. D-3??

[Greenie]

How ridiculous! Have you ever seen Jack LaLane in his 90s...healthier than you I'm sure! Ever see Gary Null, Andrew Weil, or Deepak Chopra? Ever read the research on vits and supps?
This is insanity. ROTFLMAO!

[gman]

Damn, I wish they had never added fluoride to our water, Vitamin D to our milk, etc. We would be a lot healthier lol

[brandO]

the following is contained in the USP (United States Pharmacopeia). you can check it out at the library

[Greenie]

Carol Alt takes a whopping 300 vits and supps a day and she is perhaps the healthiest person in the US! Suzanne Sommers would tear you a new one if she saw your post on this!

With all due respect, your post on supps being bad could be the most ridiculous ever written in this forum, dude.

[LeanGuy]

If you are taking vitamins you are filling your body with chemical shit made by a chemist in a lab and you will die sooner than you would if you did not take them.

I'll take my chances... after feeling the effects of multiple deficiencies... zinc, magnesium, b-5, c. I am actually recovering now since taking them.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by brandO
If you are taking vitamins you are filling your body with chemical shit made by a chemist in a lab and you will die sooner than you would if you did not take them.



I'll take my chances... after feeling the effects of multiple deficiencies... zinc, magnesium, b-5, c. I am actually recovering now since taking them.

Good and bad.

When getting supplements we are always striving to get the best.

The knowledge of what constitute good/best supplement is newer good enough and vary for many reasons.

brandO's post #1 and this one, happens to quote extreme opinion, that is not usefull.

-------------------
OTOH, I am sure that we have many useless supplements being sold.

So raising avareness of the issue is a good thing.



.

[Drew]

Damn, I wish they had never added fluoride to our water, Vitamin D to our milk, etc. We would be a lot healthier lol

I don't agree whatsoever with the original post, but I really do wish flouride wasn't added to the water.

[LeanGuy]

I don't agree whatsoever with the original post, but I really do wish flouride wasn't added to the water.

Agreed, I installed a whole house water filter.

[GirlyMan]

brandO's post #1 and this one, happens to quote extreme opinion, that is not usefull.

We disagree on this point, I find the extremes invaluable and am always interested in them (BTW, neither of these qualify as extreme, at best they are only sign posts to the extremes). If for nothing else than to identify the boundaries and locate myself. I get worried if I find myself too close to either one. I like sitting on the fence, it's more comfortable than wallowing in the muck on either side.

[medgerton]

My Endo said the same...would like more info to make a believer of me. D-3??

From what I've seen I would stand on the opposite end of an argument with an Endo.

[ssavan01]

This thread doesnt even deserve a response.

[Wise Guy]

I don't agree whatsoever with the original post, but I really do wish flouride wasn't added to the water.

Easily fixed with a reverse osmosis filtration system.

[medgerton]

Easily fixed with a reverse osmosis filtration system.

I thought you were getting into the medical field not dentistry. :001_tt2:

[4aminsomniac]

Easily fixed with a reverse osmosis filtration system.

Actually, it only removes about 90-94% of flouride.

But, that is much better than nothing. I only try to drink RO water.

[NG_F]

What about Distilled? I use it constantly for my CPAP humidifier.

[BigJimcalhoun]

We also need to ban dihydrogen - monoxide - that is the worst of them all
YouTube - Penn And Teller Get Hippies To Sign Water Banning Petition

[cpeil2]

So, I guess we shouldn't eat protein because it's made from nitrogen and so is ammonia. And carbohydrates and fats are probably bad because they are made from hydrocarbon chains and so is anti-freeze.


Just goes to show that a cluster of disembodied factoids doesn't equal knowledge.

[chilln]

A chemist in a lab cannot make anything but a dead chemical that the body does not recognize as food

When you build a logical argument, then it's done by adding layers upon layers of discussions and conclusions.

In your case, your argument has this fundamental premise as one if its "layers".

This is a critical concept which is used in any "debate" or "argument" or "theory".

###

All of your subsequent statements re the chemistry of supplements are invalid, simply because they are based in this one invalid premise, ie:
"A chemist in a lab cannot make anything but a dead chemical that the body does not recognize as food"

The body does actually treat synthetically manufactured molecules no differently from ones made by the body.

I accept that you will not find biology-based papers on this in 2009 because we pretty much proved this about 150 to 120 years ago.

Unfortunately, this concept is still rarely taught in biology classes.

Since you probably were not taught this in school, therefore you are excused for not having understood this fundamental and critical concept.

Sorry to be blunt.

[brandO]

well if you think popping handfuls of pills everyday is going to bring optimal health and longevity your certainly kidding yourself.

im not saying supplements can't be useful at time, but 99% of supplements are junk and people tend to abuse them. a famous doctor once said usually the people that were very unbalanced often where the patients that would bring in a shopping bag of supplements...

[chilln]

well if you think popping handfuls of pills everyday is going to bring optimal health and longevity your certainly kidding yourself.

im not saying supplements can't be useful at time, but 99% of supplements are junk and people tend to abuse them. a famous doctor once said usually the people that were very unbalanced often where the patients that would bring in a shopping bag of supplements...


While this may be true to some extent, this statement is definitely different from your initial statement regarding "dead molecules".

In other words, just because I agree that there are many who pop too many supplements, I also know as an absolute fact, that the supplements which I and others ingest (some ingest too many) do in fact interact with our body is many good ways, and a few less-than-optimal ways.

Obviously we should monitor both our lab metrics and symptoms, both before and after supplementation. And show that either our lab metrics, or our symptoms, or both, have improved.

I agree that some do not do this, and they are highly likely to be taking supplements which are useless, or worse - detrimental to their health.

However there are those of us who know how to make supplements work for the better. We may only represent 1% of all of the supplement ingesting peoples around - but that's not even relevent to us.

That's because we're mostly concerned with our forum community members, and not the vast majority of peoples.

###

Of all of this forum's members, I can only really deduce the behaviors of the actively contributing members (from their posts).

Of all of this forum's actively contributing members, I estimate that the vast majority do monitor their symptoms, and will stop taking a supplement if they experience adverse effects.

Of all of this forum's actively contributing members, I estimate that the vast majority do not monitor labs for all of their individual supplements, primarily due to the cost of testing.
Eg: While many take Vitamins D supplements, and highly likely have their serum Vitamin D levels checked, I also believe that most of these members will also take fish oils, yet highly likely do not have their lipid levels checked (approx yearly).

My view is that we should all check our vitamin D levels, approx yearly, and supplement with vitamin D if levels are not near the top of the reference range.

My view is that we should all check our lipid levels, approx yearly, and consume appropriate lipids (eg: fish oils, coconut oil, olive oil, etc...) with meals to ensure lipid levels stay balanced.

HOWEVER, testing for the presence of individual plant and animal sourced free-radical suppressants (eg: polyphenols) in serum, is an extremely expensive exercise, and I cannot afford to do this for most of my supplements, yet consuming plant and animal sourced free-radical suppressants has definitely boosted various aspects of my health - and I have only been able to determine this from symptoms.

[Greenie]

well if you think popping handfuls of pills everyday is going to bring optimal health and longevity your certainly kidding yourself.

im not saying supplements can't be useful at time, but 99% of supplements are junk and people tend to abuse them. a famous doctor once said usually the people that were very unbalanced often where the patients that would bring in a shopping bag of supplements...

I would tend not to take a negative position on supplement use based on on what one doctor or one forum poster's opinions are on the subject, when the overwhelming research and medical evidence favors the use of supplements ( and hormones of course). Our soils are depleted, we are all stressed, we don't get enough sun or R&R anymore, and heart disease and cancer are rampant....I think our bodies need all the help they can get!

If you look into D3, niacin, fish oil, CoQ10 (especially if on statin therapy), cinammon and chromium (for BG control), magnesium, grape seed and pomegranate extracts, B complex, etc. you will see that there are very valid reasons for most to be taking these supplements, and more, depending on individual needs. To make a blanket statement that 99% are junk is outrageous. Testing for lipids, D levels, mag levels, etc. is of course prudent, but I do not think that many abuse supplements because the cost can be prohibitive to take them and people likely just take what their bodies need.

Again, I'd take a look at Carol Alt, Suzanne S, LaLane, Null, Weil, etc. and then decide if these people look like they are on the wrong path. I am 56 and most people guess my age in the mid 30s. I've been taking supps since I was 10. Obviously, I am a believer.

[brandO]

I would tend not to take a negative position on supplement use based on on what one doctor or one forum poster's opinions are on the subject, when the overwhelming research and medical evidence favors the use of supplements

its a billion dollar industry... money talks.

thats nice... im sure the oldest living people in the world never popped pill in there life.

if you want to spend hundreds of dollars on supplements a month, be my guest.
I do take supplements, i take DHEA, magnesium oil, Probiotic, and fish oil and some dried herbs.

i take whole food supplements, i guess DHEA is the only synthetic supplement i take.


millions and millions of american pop pills everyday... have you looked at the average american lately? i dont think those supplements are doing much.


supplements are simply to supplement an already healthy lifestyle ( eating (meat based diet), exercise,sun, water, etc) there not meant to be taken in megadosages taking 50 pills a day.

[chilln]

millions and millions of american pop pills everyday... have you looked at the average american lately? i dont think those supplements are doing much.

Your level of concern for others is commendable.

But that doesn't help make your case.

Ie: someone else's poor education is not relevant to your own level of education.

What matters to us is your level of understanding of supplements.

We are concerned that your understanding of supplements is not based on scientific principles.

###

Here's just one example: When you used the euphamism that synthetic molecules are "dead molecules" then that is a strong clue to a lack of understanding of what constitutes life force in a scientific sense (as opposed to a spiritual sense).

Life force, when defined scientifically, is the ability of any molecule, or collection of molecules, usually arranged into a structured organism, which can self-replicate, either sexually or asexually (viruses are a grey area).

Since there are no single molecules which are able to self-replicate in this way therefore all single molecules are dead (viruses are a grey area).

This holds true for natural vitamin C as much as it holds true for synthetic vitamin C - because vitamin C cannot self-replicate. Ie: all vitamin C is dead.

###

There are many other aspects of your initial post which are equally as incorrect, from a scientific perspective, and this is my focus.

I am much more concerned with your education, than I am with the education of millions of supplement-eating-Americans.

[brandO]

are bodies arent designed to take supplements made my man in mega dosages.

i stopped taking supplements and actually got healthier as a result....and saved myself lots and lots of money.

you can justify popping handfuls of pills each day though, hope it works for you goodluck!

with how our economy is going the supplement industry will go under.

[JanSz]

are bodies arent designed to take supplements made my man in mega dosages.

i stopped taking supplements and actually got healthier as a result....and saved myself lots and lots of money.

you can justify popping handfuls of pills each day though, hope it works for you goodluck!

with how our economy is going the supplement industry will go under.

I agree with your general approach (but not the way you are explaining it).

I think we should spend more time discussing how to eat to minimize need for supplementing.

.

[Sargovar]

If the food that is readily available to us nowadays weren't complete and utter junk that's damn near unfit for human consumption, there would be no need for supplementing. But the sad fact is that factory farming, nutrient depleted soils, chemical contamination and a host of other factors greatly reduce the nutrient content of the food that ends up on our dinner tables. For example, you buy a tomato from your local supermarket and eat it.. think it is anything compared to the tomatoes people ate before the industrial revolution and the dramatic shift in our way of life as a species? Hell, you don't even need to go that far back in history, half a century ago things were still much better than they are today.

That's how the system operates.. it robs you of your health and then sells it back to you if you're smart enough to make the right choices and know what to buy (choice supplements, fine tuned HRT with the assistance of expensive, top of the line physicians), OR in a worse case scenario it sells you an alternative bandaid solution (antidepressants, statin drugs etc) and you end up no healthier than you were, possibly even less so, only with partially masked symptoms regarding your condition.
It's truly sad that human misery is created by these systems of control and power that run the western world (and by that extension the world at large), and it's even sadder that these systems profit continuously from that misery.

I'd be a happy camper if I could get everything my body needs simply by eating the right foods and doing away with supplements altogether, but it doesn't work that way. Just an isolated example: I live in Finland and I absolutely NEED a vitamin D supplement during the winter. I've felt much better ever since I started to take such a supplement in a very high dose. I suppose an alternative would be to eat half my bodyweight in fatty fish every day, but that would create more problems down the line, such as possible mercury buildup, not to mention the detrimental slimming effect on my wallet!
It is simply easier (and cheaper!) in some instances to supplement than it is to try and get everything you need from whole foods, because in today's world it's just not realistic unless you live on a farm in a favorable climate and grow everything you need yourself, or alternatively possess unlimited wealth and can afford to ship in the most exotic, privately grown foods at exorbitant prices. And I'd wager you'd still end up with a deficiency here and there even on such a million dollar diet.

All that said, it goes without saying that the less supplements you need, the better. If you can manage with just one or two, I tip my hat to you.

[cpeil2]

i stopped taking supplements and actually got healthier as a result....and saved myself lots and lots of money.



I'm guessing that, at the same time you stopped taking supplements, you got a lot more conscientious about nutrition and that the improved nutrition had at least as much to do with your improved health as stopping supplements.

So, you could be right that some people may expect too much of nutritional supplements and try to use them as a substitute for good nutrition.

But to conclude from that that all supplements are bad and that our bodies are incapable of absorbing synthetically-produced micronutrients is REALLY a leap, and as Chilln has shown, just plain bad logic.

[Drew]

are bodies arent designed to take supplements made my man in mega dosages.

I always try and get my vitamins, minerals, etc...from food and if I can't, I try and use a whole food based supplement (like Alive multivitamins). What I don't agree with, however, is that our bodies won't absorb synthetic supplements. Are you aware of the millions of studys out there that use synthetic supplements that raise serum levels in humans?

I think mega doses should only be used in certain circumtances (ie. absorption issues, or if someone is completely depleted of the supplemented vitamin/mineral/etc...) I've seen mega doses of iodine (in the form of iodoral) do wonders for so many people, it's tough to ignore.

[brandO]

i stopped taking some of my supplements ( i do take some now) because 1 is i cant afford them and 2 is i decided to eat foods where i need a boost (mostly zinc, iron) i eat red meat and seafood at every meal and i feel 5x better...i will stop my probiotics soon because im soon starting to make homemade sour kraut and other fermented foods. I still want to take DHEA, armour thyroid, magnesium oil. and cod liver oil for d3. at one point i was taking well over 50 pills a day with very little results.

LISTEN IM NOT AGAINST ALL SUPPLEMENTS BUT IM AGAINST SUPPLEMENTS THAT CONTAIN HARMFUL FILERS SUCH AS MAGNESIUM STEARATES, WHICH IS 99% OF THE SUPPLEMENTS. read more here.

http://www.drrons.com/beware-of-additives-in-supplements.htm

[Drew]

i stopped taking some of my supplements ( i do take some now) because 1 is i cant afford them and 2 is i decided to eat foods where i need a boost (mostly zinc, iron) i eat red meat and seafood at every meal and i feel 5x better...i will stop my probiotics soon because im soon starting to make homemade sour kraut and other fermented foods. I still want to take DHEA, armour thyroid, magnesium oil. and cod liver oil for d3. at one point i was taking well over 50 pills a day with very little results.

LISTEN IM NOT AGAINST ALL SUPPLEMENTS BUT IM AGAINST SUPPLEMENTS THAT CONTAIN HARMFUL FILERS SUCH AS MAGNESIUM STEARATES, WHICH IS 99% OF THE SUPPLEMENTS. read more here.

http://www.drrons.com/beware-of-additives-in-supplements.htm


Unfortunately, that article has ZERO sources.

[brandO]

i avoid stearates like the plague.

[cpeil2]

i avoid stearates like the plague.


Stearic acid is one of the saturated fats that is supposed to be beneficial.

[Greenie]

Stearic acid is one of the saturated fats that is supposed to be beneficial.


I try to consume all the stearic acid I can! :thumbup:

[brandO]

magnesium stearates are fillers. only cheap supplements contain them.

i only buy the best quality.

[brandO]

Are You Being Poisoned? The Danger of Magnesium Stearate and Stearic Acid In Our Health Supplements


90% of people who take health supplements are poisoning themselves. How?

If you've heard anything about Magnesium Stearate, or Stearic Acid as it is sometimes called, you know that vitamin and supplement bottles everywhere are loaded down with potentially dangerous and life endangering additives that don't need to be there. The reality is that you probably have not heard of Stearic Acid though and that is a shame, because you are missing key bits of information that can help to save your life.

What is Magnesium Stearate?

Magnesium Stearate is absolutely useless to your body; a metal derivative that your body has absolutely no conceivable use for. Supplement companies have been intentionally misleading their customers for some time now, making it sound like the inclusion of this additive is helpful to your general welfare. The truth is much more frightening and a substantial bit more dangerous.

Magnesium Stearate or Stearic Acid is basically a toxin; a combination of hydrogenated oils that gets into your body and starts killing cells almost immediately. The worst part is that there is Stearic Acid in over 90% of the pills currently on the market. Sometimes it is because of the age of the equipment being used to produce pills; other times it is because supplement companies are trying to milk every last bit of profit out of their machines.

So, how does Magnesium Stearate make its way into your supplements so often? It is a manufacturing tool, used to lubricate the machinery and produce more pills, faster. To be more accurate, Stearic Acid is the byproduct of the hydrogenated oils that are used to lubricate the machinery, having accumulated the metals that saturate these highly dangerous oils. Because they are used to lubricate every aspect of pill production, these hydrogenated oils have saturated every ounce of your supplements, making up as much as 5% of a 1000 mg capsule. Not only does this waste valuable supplement space just so a company can make more pills and more money, it reduces the effectiveness of the pills you are taking.

In addition to weakening your pills, Magnesium Stearate may be loaded with pesticides that are used on the Cottonseed Oil that has been hydrogenated. In addition, with the chemical structure of the fatty acids in Stearic Acid having been altered through close contact with various metal catalysts at extremely high temperatures, the risk of toxicity increases dramatically, introducing countless toxic compounds into your body as a result.

While the companies that produce Vitamins and Supplements may want you to believe that the use of Magnesium Stearate and Stearic Acid in your pills is safe, they are not fooling anyone. You owe it to yourself and your future well being to go to the cupboard right now and remove any pills in there that might contain anything with either of these highly dangerous supplements in them. The market has supported this shoddy, irresponsible production for too long and the health of the industry's consumers should not need to suffer for it. http://www.articlesbase.com/wellness-articles/are-you-being-poisoned-the-danger-of-magnesium-stearate-and-stearic-acid-in-our-health-supplements-443927.html

[Investmentbanker]

Could also be the placebo effect. If you have it in your mind that supplements are bad and you miraculously feel better once you stop taking them then it sounds suspect to me. For one to say they felt no better on supplements is believable but to say you felt better off of them seems odd. If that was the case then you should have noticed that you were feeling worse when you first started taking them BrandO. You said you were on 50+ pills. Your argument makes no sense to me.....




I'm guessing that, at the same time you stopped taking supplements, you got a lot more conscientious about nutrition and that the improved nutrition had at least as much to do with your improved health as stopping supplements.

So, you could be right that some people may expect too much of nutritional supplements and try to use them as a substitute for good nutrition.

But to conclude from that that all supplements are bad and that our bodies are incapable of absorbing synthetically-produced micronutrients is REALLY a leap, and as Chilln has shown, just plain bad logic.

[brandO]

Nope..

at first i did notice great effects (usually lots of pills give drug like effects) after awhile i added more pills in, the more.. once i stopped all supplements let my body rebalance i felt better.

supplements are risky... to much of anything disrupts other parts of the body or causes other deficiencies, but this never happens with real live food, so its possibly i initially felt better while supplementing then began causing other imbalances causing me to feel worse over time.
its hard to pin point exactly what happen, the effects are subtle and i been on them for years.

health cant be found in a bottle of pills, sorry guys health takes hard work.
supplements are just to supplement an already heathly lifestyle.

eveything can be a placebo effect? everything you put into your mouth and shoot in your ass can be a placebo.

[cpeil2]

health cant be found in a bottle of pills, sorry guys health takes hard work.
supplements are just to supplement an already heathly lifestyle.



I think you're preaching to the choir on that point.