Hard to understand these numbers

[JonF]

Okay.... I have been on HRT for a while now and have had some up's and down's... but I have always run my test at least 1 a month for the last 2 years. Here is where I have ended up......

First off I am 6'2" 250lbs 36 waist and in good athletic shape 41yrs old

Test cyp 200/mg 1mg on Wed and 1mg on Sat....... Test levels have been consistantly at 600 to 800..(range 280-1000)...... on the higher side of the range. I guess...

I have been on Dr C's protocol of HCG when I can get it at my pharmacy....seems to be a shortage right now.......


I am also on 1mg tab Arimidex daily and my Estradiol is at 37 (range 13-54) I have be shooting for and E number of 18-22 from my reading and research. BUT I am afraid of the dose I am already taking.... Is there any negative effects I should be looking for at such a high dose of Arimidex?

Any other ideas of why my E is so hard to lower?

Oh....also... I am post Graves with no Thyroid function and I am on Armor 2 90's a day. My TSH and T4 T3 levels seem to be in range....

Overall I am not feeling all that bad... little tired at the end of the day but for the most part feeling pretty good and no ED issues at all......libido is fine is not high.......


Thanks for any feedback

[MaidenNJ]

400 mg a week? WOW
I am able to get a test of 850 on only 70 mg/week.

1 mg adex/day?

You need to drop your test down and look for reasons why it takes so much.

[JonF]

I have done several administrations of test from androgel to compounding gel to injections..... from low doses up to where I am now. I have "started over" a couple of times to try and get a lower amount of test to work and this is where I am at to get my levels up. I have even tried mono-therapy of just extreme doses of HCG and that didn't work. So good or bad...it takes this much to get my levels up and for me to feel have way decent. When I saw Dr C, he used the term "super processor" that I used up the test very fast... probably due to my life long Graves problem I had.......

[JanSz]

6'2" 250lbs 36 waist and in good athletic shape 41yrs old
200mg testosterone cypionate Wed & Sat for a total of 400mg/week
no HCG
1mg tab Arimidex daily
always run my test at least 1 a month for the last 2 years
Test levels have been consistantly at 600 to 800..(range 280-1000)
Estradiol is at 37 (range 13-54)
I am post Graves with no Thyroid function and I am on Armor 2 90's a day. My TSH and T4 T3 levels seem to be in range....
feeling pretty good and no ED issues at all......libido is fine


Post all blood test results that you have.
Also saliva, cortisol & DHEA if you have.

Have you tried testosterone doses under 200mg/week?
.
Indeed you are beyond hypetabolizing, you are "super processor" (as per dr John's description).

Have you tried daily testosterone injections?

What was the lattest advice from dr John?
.
.

.

[chilln]

I have done several administrations of test from androgel to compounding gel to injections..... from low doses up to where I am now. I have "started over" a couple of times to try and get a lower amount of test to work and this is where I am at to get my levels up. I have even tried mono-therapy of just extreme doses of HCG and that didn't work. So good or bad...it takes this much to get my levels up and for me to feel have way decent. When I saw Dr C, he used the term "super processor" that I used up the test very fast... probably due to my life long Graves problem I had.......


Well done for doing all the hard yards to understand what is a tough situation !

I tip my hat to you, sir !

Your testosterone must not be binding (much) to albumin or SHBG, so most of your free testosterone stays as free testosterone, which therefore gets metabolized quickly.

Effectively the only way for you to reduce your total testosterone consumption, whilst still maintaining your free testosterone levels, would be to "drip feed" testosterone to your body. The approximation of that is to apply transdermal testosterone three times daily, rather than go for high injected doses.

Despite this, you do still need those other-than-testosterone testicular produced hormones, because I suspect you are not injecting those.

ie: Supplementing with HCG will improve your pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone, androstenedione, etc...

In other words, although you've worked out how and why your testosterone is behaving as it does, you don't seem to be addressing your remaining sex hormones, and that concerns me, in light of the fact that one of your sex hormones is suffering.

Perhaps discuss with your medical professional adviser to do a Rheins 24 hr urinary hormone panel to see what other hormones are experiencing collateral damage from your rapidly used testosterone.

[JonF]

Thanks guys.... great thought. I will schedule a hormone panel and post results. Unfortunately I no longer see Dr. C........ But I research his work to try and cross check with the current medical treatments I am receiving. Then I try and apply the best I can.

I have been using HCG, again when i can get it, and I notice a overall raised feeling of attitude..... perhaps a slight raise in libido also.

I am currently out if HCG because my area pharmacies are out of stock.

So does the presence of HCG help with the balancing of the full hormone panel and in turn help balance the high E levels? I understand that more is not always best... for example I don't think adding more arimidex is the best application in this instance, but that is what my current Dr wants me to do..... double up on the day prior to test injections. Just not comfortable with that advice. So I will insist on the hormone panel test.......


Thanks again for the time and words of advice.

[JonF]

In the mean time..... should I try the daily Test injections? Sub Q or IM?

How much should I start with if I am at the dose I am already taking?

thanks

[JanSz]

In the mean time..... should I try the daily Test injections? Sub Q or IM?

How much should I start with if I am at the dose I am already taking?

thanks

Post all blood test results that you have.
Also saliva, cortisol & DHEA if you have.

Once you have made a visist to see dr John once, you are his patient for life.
Try using his advice. He is very good and inexpensive.
Your biggest cost, first visit is behind you.
Just use e-mail (and PayPal).
--------------

In my opinion (others may differ) when choosing between transdermal and injectable testosterone use your DHT as a guide.
High DHT--> injectable
Low DHT--> transdermal

When on injectable, many people suffer high E2 that is often hard to manage properly.
I noted that very frequent T injections (daily) are conducive to keeping E2 in check or make it into smaller problem.

There is a term (type of injection) that should not be used ---SubQ.
SubQ implies use of two hands to do shot.
One hand lifts a skin fold the other makes a shot into that fold.
This type of shots are not to be used.

Using any type of needle, long or short, thick or thin, use one hand and insert the needle (more or less) perpendicular to the skin surface.
More details can be added, but they would only cloud the issue.
------------------------------------

Always follow your doctor's advice.

In a first phase try to get as much as possible testosterone from your testis.
So optimizing HCG is first priority.
Next phase, if you still missing on BAT (BioAvailableTestosterone) then add sufficient amount of testosterone.

I ended on this schedule:
T & HCG shots on alternate days.
T-shot 40mg
HCG-400iu
I do not have to use Arimidex at this time (but always checking)

You being supe-hypermetabolizer
assuming that your's DHT is (like mine) on higher side
and if your SHBG is (15-20)
may either try what I do
or
do daily shots, every day (T & HCG) shots, half of my dose.

Again that would be a first approximation.
Do blood tests and adjust dose as need.
.
.
.

[JonF]

Thanks again for the great feedback.... Here are two sets of labs.....The first being off of everything.... and the second on my latest protocol, described above in this post.......

Off everything:
LabCorp
Test serum 160 Range 241-827
Test Free 3.35 Range 5.00-21.00
% Free Test 1.95 Range 1.50-4.20

Estradiol 4 Range 3-70
DHT 42 Range 25-75
igf 1 124 range 106-255
FSH 0.7 Range 1.6-8.0


On Test/Arimidex/HCG

Test Serum 801 Range 241-827
Test Free 57.17 Range 5.00-21.00
% Free Test 4.1 Range 1.50-4.20

Estradiol 38 Range 3-70 (told target is 18-22)

DHT 177 Range 30-85



So I know these numbers are limited but I think you get the picture. I thin I am going to have another complete hormone test done..... Remember... I have stopped and started at least 3 times trying to reset and pin point, I have tried topical and really never was able to move my Test numbers up until we did injectable Test Cyp. In the process I have added low dose HGH along with the Test and my body has responded unbelievable to the overall treatment.... I have gone from a 42 waist and feeling like crap to feeling pretty damn good in comparison and now I have great muscle definition and my waist is at 36.......I work out at least 3 times a week and feel great for the most part......for 41 yrs old....... Just don't want to be doing something bad by having so much Arimidex in my system if there is a better way to combat the E levels. So I have to say I am very happy with the results of HRT in my life..... Life changing for sure. I just want to stay on top of it..... Thank you again for any feedback. Over the last 2.5 years I have learned so much from all of you guys that post and give feedback. I hope phil is on the way back to good health.... haven't heard too much.....

[JanSz]

igf 1 124 range 106-255
Estradiol 38 Range 3-70 (told target is 18-22)
DHT 177 Range 30-85

In the process I have added low dose HGH along with the Test and my body has responded unbelievable to the overall treatment.... I have gone from a 42 waist and feeling like crap to feeling pretty damn good in comparison and now I have great muscle definition and my waist is at 36.......

Just don't want to be doing something bad by having so much Arimidex in my system if there is a better way to combat the E levels.

Consider using HCG on continous basis,
buy a 6-9 months supply so you do not run out.

Consider EOD schedule, should help you
have better control of E2 (less Arimidex)

Good that you responding well to HGH.
I am surprised that you are not showing more of tests related to GH.

Missing lots of info.
Good testing is in order.

Wonder what is the meaning of your high DHT while on injected test.

.

[chilln]

On Test/Arimidex/HCG

Test Serum 801 Range 241-827
Test Free 57.17 Range 5.00-21.00
% Free Test 4.1 Range 1.50-4.20

Estradiol 38 Range 3-70 (told target is 18-22)

DHT 177 Range 30-85



and



Wonder what is the meaning of your high DHT while on injected test.


Your high E2 and high DHT is because your injection frequency is still a little less-than-optimal.

Ie, you're targeting higher peak testosterone than your body is prepared to tolerate, because you know you need those higher peaks to keep your testosterone level still "high enough" by the time of your next injection.

However, if you injected more frequently, using a lower dose, then you would achieve initially lower peak testosterone, and then your body wouldn't react so drastically to reduce your testosterone by converting it to DHT and E2.

And then you would need less Arimidex.

But then you would feel more like a pin-cushion.

###

Makes transdermal testosterone sound more appealing in my opinion. You may want to discuss this with your medical professional adviser.

[JonF]

Thanks again for the input..... I think due to my graves disease..... topical and transdermal are not an option. Something about my skin has become "thick" and doesn't absorb very well...... which I experienced when I was on the androgel.....I had no elevation in my T levels at all.......

Are there any alternatives to the HCG since it is not available in my area for now.... Do any supps work to help with the balancing that HCG seems to do.
(ie. horny goat weed, Yohimbe....?)

Since my DHT is high..... is propecia an option to lower it? Try and keep my hair..... I have read so many bad things about it due to the E levels raising, so I am not sure if that is a option for me, or will the arimidex keep my E in check.

[chilln]

Thanks again for the input..... I think due to my graves disease..... topical and transdermal are not an option. Something about my skin has become "thick" and doesn't absorb very well...... which I experienced when I was on the androgel.....I had no elevation in my T levels at all.......

Are there any alternatives to the HCG since it is not available in my area for now.... Do any supps work to help with the balancing that HCG seems to do.
(ie. horny goat weed, Yohimbe....?)

Since my DHT is high..... is propecia an option to lower it? Try and keep my hair..... I have read so many bad things about it due to the E levels raising, so I am not sure if that is a option for me, or will the arimidex keep my E in check.

While both tribulus and tongkat ali do boost LH and FSH, their long term continuous use hasn't been studied.

I always have tribulus on hand in case I forget to inject my HCG (I inject daily). It certainly boosts my LH and FSH on those rare occasions I do forget my HCG.

The problem is that the vast majority of tribulus extract supplements are not pure tribulus extract, but include other ergogens which I definitiely do not need (and I suspect you won't need those additional ergogens either especially before sleep time).

The problem with tribulus is that it doesn't come packaged in a slow release forumula, so you have to pop around 10 pills of the "mostly pure" variety, evenly spaced through the day, to keep your testosterone levels high.

Yohimbe doesn't raise testosterone levels. Game over.

[JonF]

Thanks.... I will try tribulus and see if my testicles come back a bit.... When I was on Androgel they shrunk up but I had no change in my Test levels....they came back when I was doing hcg...... so far they have not shrunk too bad since being off hcg for two months now.......