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JackBauer
01-25-2009, 01:00 PM
Hey guys.

No real questions here... Just that I took the time to put all my lab data into a spreadsheet, made pivot tables / graphs... And out pops trends that some may find interesting. (I filtered out any labs that were not taken 2 days post injection, and any labs that are multiple injections per week)

First graph
1. My pre-treatment average TT level is 305.
2. My clomid stim test suggested secondary hypogonadism
3. Treating with clomid showed a bump over no treatment, but it was somewhat hidden as I had to use a different lab with different ranges.
4. Moving on to hCG - you see that my average was only 10% higher than my "no treatment" labs.

Second graph
Shows the details on hCG - that as my subcutaneous hCG injection dosing went up, my TT levels stayed fairly constant.

Third graph
1. I move to transdermal. It seems that I may have been absorbing some of it. But again the trend of the Total Testosterone serum levels do not follow my dosiing.
2. Some of the higher doses include substantial evening application. (E.g, 40-50% of my dose)

Fourth Graph
1. Now it starts to get really interesting. I move to subcutaneous injections based on my physicians instructions. I was expecting to immediately feel better. But as you can see, as I go from 70mg to 130mg per week, while serum T levels vary slightly, overall the trend is flat to down.
2. I was really starting to get frustrated at this point, as I didn't feel any better... hCG didn't work, Transdermal didn't work very well, and now direct injection serum T levels were not corresponding to higher dosings. The inconsistency in labs, and the lack of EQ improvement - was starting to get to me.

Fifth Graph
1. I move to IM injections. I finally start seeing my serum T levels follow increasing T dosings.
2. With the higher T levels, and this is probably true even with subcutaneous injections, I start feeling a little less fatigued in the morning.

Sixth Graph
Just showing my DHEA-S levels. Nothing highly interesting here. Probably a bit low, but we'll have to see what my new doctor says.


Notes:
1. I know you can't really claim scientific proof based off on person, five labs of IM and five of subcutaneous. But it is interesting how the trend lines follow on the IM but diverge on subcutaneous.
2. I have some thyroid data - but really very little so I didn't plot anything there. Same thing for Free T, BioT. I have some snapshots of other lab values, but nothing I could trend against other data.
3. Today I still suffer from poor erectile quality overall... In terms of firmness, nocturnal / spontaneous erections, ejaculation urgency, erections that weaken, etc... So it appears that while I may have made great progress in getting my T levels up where they belong, there is more left to be done.

Hopefully someone finds this interesting.

Wise Guy
01-25-2009, 01:14 PM
Good stuff.

Are those ultra sensitive estrogen numbers? If so, they are high.

You have not had any significant period of time with estrogen in range, thus your body is poisoned with it. Expect erection quality to suffer, because T receptors that are plentiful in the genital region, which are responsible for sexual functioning, are clogged up.

Just because you have higher circulating levels means little. It takes months for changes to occur on a molecular level.

What are your DHT levels. They are also responsible for libido/sexual function.

###

It is even becomming more apparent to me that it is of the utmost importance that gents get a quality compounded testosterone first right away.

JackBauer
01-25-2009, 01:33 PM
Good stuff.

Are those ultra sensitive estrogen numbers? If so, they are high.

You have not had any significant period of time with estrogen in range, thus your body is poisoned with it. Expect erection quality to suffer, because T receptors that are plentiful in the genital region, which are responsible for sexual functioning, are clogged up.


What are your DHT levels. They are also responsible for libido/sexual function.


Yes those are ultrasensitive numbers. On 0.35mg of Arimidex a week, I hit as low as 17 pg/mL. The other test showd 21pg/mL. My doc thought that was a bit low, so scaled me back to 0.1mg per week. Now that I'm at that dose my latest labs showed 29pg/mL.

LEF says to keep E2 between 20-30. I've seen others here suggest it should be under 20. I'm a bit cautious about that.

I make the trip on Sunday, so we'll see what the good Doc says to me.

My DHT is "hella" high :) (All IM, Labcorp)

T-Cyp Inj: 160mg DHT levels: 174, 130, 173 (30 - 85 ng/dL)
T-Cyp Inj: 130mg DHT level: 127

Wise Guy
01-25-2009, 02:31 PM
Yes those are ultrasensitive numbers. On 0.35mg of Arimidex a week, I hit as low as 17 pg/mL. The other test showd 21pg/mL. My doc thought that was a bit low, so scaled me back to 0.1mg per week. Now that I'm at that dose my latest labs showed 29pg/mL.

LEF says to keep E2 between 20-30. I've seen others here suggest it should be under 20. I'm a bit cautious about that.

I make the trip on Sunday, so we'll see what the good Doc says to me.

My DHT is "hella" high :) (All IM, Labcorp)

T-Cyp Inj: 160mg DHT levels: 174, 130, 173 (30 - 85 ng/dL)
T-Cyp Inj: 130mg DHT level: 127

You want E midrange. This is easy to calculate.

It takes months of mid range E for changes to occur - Since it is likely E has been elevated for years.

You have to be consistent and patient. Keys to success in any arena

JackBauer
01-25-2009, 03:30 PM
You want E midrange. This is easy to calculate.

It takes months of mid range E for changes to occur - Since it is likely E has been elevated for years.

You have to be consistent and patient. Keys to success in any arena

Pre injection E2 levels average at 32.5... Not arguing with you here - just that I'm not your typical andropause guy whose T levels have plummeted and E2 levels skyrocketed.

I might have been a bit on the high side but not THAT high really.

JackBauer
01-25-2009, 03:34 PM
Just to add WG...

I go through periods of intense itchy skin... Only happens during times of some mild to moderate stress. If I'm laying on my couch, watching TV - it's not likely to happen... But I was just grocery shopping... And not that it is extremely stressful - just had stuff on my mind, trying to find something I couldn't find...

Anyway - had this massive skin itch session. All over my torso.

I don't have ALL the symptoms of hypothyroid... And the minimal thyroid numbers I have, don't suggest an outright problem... But I just can't escape the possibility the itchiness is thyroid related.

medgerton
01-25-2009, 04:06 PM
You want E midrange. This is easy to calculate.

It takes months of mid range E for changes to occur - Since it is likely E has been elevated for years.

You have to be consistent and patient. Keys to success in any arena

I agree that it takes time for changes to occur once a hormone is moved to good range, in this case e2. My e2 was elevated for years before starting HRT. Running TD T solely for 4 months made my e2 elevation worse. E2 has been under control for the past 4 months.

I developed mild-moderate BPH about a month ago. I believe that my high e2 and high DHT provided an ideal environment for prostate growth. I am looking forward to reaping the benefit of midrange e2 in the coming months.

I do wish it was faster but it takes time.

medgerton
01-25-2009, 04:14 PM
Hey guys.

No real questions here... Just that I took the time to put all my lab data into a spreadsheet, made pivot tables / graphs... And out pops trends that some may find interesting. (I filtered out any labs that were not taken 2 days post injection, and any labs that are multiple injections per week)

First graph
1. My pre-treatment average TT level is 305.
2. My clomid stim test suggested secondary hypogonadism
3. Treating with clomid showed a bump over no treatment, but it was somewhat hidden as I had to use a different lab with different ranges.
4. Moving on to hCG - you see that my average was only 10% higher than my "no treatment" labs.

Second graph
Shows the details on hCG - that as my subcutaneous hCG injection dosing went up, my TT levels stayed fairly constant.

Third graph
1. I move to transdermal. It seems that I may have been absorbing some of it. But again the trend of the Total Testosterone serum levels do not follow my dosiing.
2. Some of the higher doses include substantial evening application. (E.g, 40-50% of my dose)

Fourth Graph
1. Now it starts to get really interesting. I move to subcutaneous injections based on my physicians instructions. I was expecting to immediately feel better. But as you can see, as I go from 70mg to 130mg per week, while serum T levels vary slightly, overall the trend is flat to down.
2. I was really starting to get frustrated at this point, as I didn't feel any better... hCG didn't work, Transdermal didn't work very well, and now direct injection serum T levels were not corresponding to higher dosings. The inconsistency in labs, and the lack of EQ improvement - was starting to get to me.

Fifth Graph
1. I move to IM injections. I finally start seeing my serum T levels follow increasing T dosings.
2. With the higher T levels, and this is probably true even with subcutaneous injections, I start feeling a little less fatigued in the morning.

Sixth Graph
Just showing my DHEA-S levels. Nothing highly interesting here. Probably a bit low, but we'll have to see what my new doctor says.


Notes:
1. I know you can't really claim scientific proof based off on person, five labs of IM and five of subcutaneous. But it is interesting how the trend lines follow on the IM but diverge on subcutaneous.
2. I have some thyroid data - but really very little so I didn't plot anything there. Same thing for Free T, BioT. I have some snapshots of other lab values, but nothing I could trend against other data.
3. Today I still suffer from poor erectile quality overall... In terms of firmness, nocturnal / spontaneous erections, ejaculation urgency, erections that weaken, etc... So it appears that while I may have made great progress in getting my T levels up where they belong, there is more left to be done.

Hopefully someone finds this interesting.

Thank you for this graphical information. I find it interesting that as you ramped up HCG your TT did not ramp up also.

anyman
01-25-2009, 05:17 PM
Seriously--nice job. Will help your new Dr immensely. Very impressive.

I have no idea how to do that, although I do have an unopened "iWork 08" sitting next to my laptop. I need a secretary who can do this stuff......

cpeil2
01-25-2009, 05:25 PM
1. I know you can't really claim scientific proof based off on person, five labs of IM and five of subcutaneous. But it is interesting how the trend lines follow on the IM but diverge on subcutaneous.


True, you can't generalize your results to others, but your data provides a gold mine of information regarding your own physiology.