HCG= Cancer?

[crazycrew]

I have scheduled an appointment with an anti aging Dr who is a member of A4M. During a phone conversation I asked him about hcg and he said it has been linked to cancer so he does not subscribe to its use. Does anyone know what he is referring to or have information for me to take to counter him? Thanks.

[JanSz]

I have scheduled an appointment with an anti aging Dr who is a member of A4M. During a phone conversation I asked him about hcg and he said it has been linked to cancer so he does not subscribe to its use. Does anyone know what he is referring to or have information for me to take to counter him? Thanks.

You should have asked your doctor for backup.

Is it possible that your doctor confused HCG with HGH?

/

[living2die]

Males who have testicular cancer have traceable amounts of HCG in there blood stream due to the hcg-secreting cancerous cell growth production. its kinda of the chicken or the egg existential question. as far as i know, the hcg is present in the blood because of the cancer and it doesnt work the other way around. as hcg is a LH analogue, it would be like saying LH causes cancer, or female pregnancy causes cancer (as large amounts of hcg are produced by the placenta in females during pregnancy)



I have scheduled an appointment with an anti aging Dr who is a member of A4M. During a phone conversation I asked him about hcg and he said it has been linked to cancer so he does not subscribe to its use. Does anyone know what he is referring to or have information for me to take to counter him? Thanks.

[crazycrew]

It was only a brief pre interview before my first appointment. I am suppose to see him on the 30th and will ask him then what he bases his oppinion on. I was surprised when he made the statement. And he does subscribe to HGH use and that costs nearly $500 a month if he recommends it.

When I handed over my records I slipped a copy of Dr Crislers newest protocal for HCG.

[cpeil2]

I have scheduled an appointment with an anti aging Dr who is a member of A4M. During a phone conversation I asked him about hcg and he said it has been linked to cancer so he does not subscribe to its use. Does anyone know what he is referring to or have information for me to take to counter him? Thanks.


Yes, there is an association, but your doc may misunderstand the association.

hCG is not normally produced by healthy men. It is a pregancy hormone produced by the corpus luteum after fertilization, so it is usually only detectable in the urine of pregant females.

The only time a man produces hCG is if he has certain (not all) types of testicular cancer. A positive hCG assay in a man who is not using exogenous hCG is persuasive evidence of testicular CA.


So the association is that certain types of testicular cancer produce hCG, but that does not mean that hCG causes testicular cancer.

In fact, hCG has been used as an LH analogue in both men and women to stimulate fertility for decades and has not been shown to cause testicular cancer.

[chilln]

I have scheduled an appointment with an anti aging Dr who is a member of A4M. During a phone conversation I asked him about hcg and he said it has been linked to cancer so he does not subscribe to its use. Does anyone know what he is referring to or have information for me to take to counter him? Thanks.


The concept of HCG and cancer is potentially true for females using HCG during IVF treatments, because HCG is part of the cocktail used to hyper-stimulate these female's ovaries to produce many mature eggs (around 10) in one menstrual cycle, where normally only one or at most two, would be produced.

The large number of mature egg follicles creates too much E2, and the large amount of E2 is what helps trigger cancer - in these females.

###

I think it's critical that members of A4M should be made to actually attend the conferences and attend the lectures, but it is not mandatory.

Also, A4M membership does not require passing of any pre-requisite exams on male hormone protocols. You can become a member if you pay the fee.

When we take these two A4M info items into consideration, therefore A4M membership only signifies this person is paying fee to the A4M organization.

If he had attended Dr Crisler's lectures, and then raised this during question time in one of Dr Crisler's A4M lectures, then this medical professional adviser would not have this opinion.

###

However, assuming this medical professional had researched new breakthrough info (which he has not) then he would simply switch from recommending HCG as part of your protocol, to using pure recombinant LH. Or if fertility is still a requirement, then he would simply switch from HCG to a mixture of pure recombinant LH, plus pure recombinant FSH.

While these are more expensive than HCG, they are bioidentical, and therefore even he cannot successfully argue they would cause cancer, unless they were abused.

###

But HCG does not cause cancer at dosages which mimic a youthful male body's daily supply of LH and FSH.

[crazycrew]

Thanks for all the informed responses

So, should I cancel the appointment ($300) and look for another Dr; or keep it and see what he recommends? Perhaps I should list all my labs (6 over 6 months) here and get some opinions from you guys too. As it stands now I haven't a clue where I stand. My last lab had my TT over 1000 and E2 at 104. I quit the Androgel and shotguned myself with an AI (I got from Asia) a week ago and am feeling better.

Should I start a new thread or post my labs here?

[hardasnails1973]

Thanks for all the informed responses

So, should I cancel the appointment ($300) and look for another Dr; or keep it and see what he recommends? Perhaps I should list all my labs (6 over 6 months) here and get some opinions from you guys too. As it stands now I haven't a clue where I stand. My last lab had my TT over 1000 and E2 at 104. I quit the Androgel and shotguned myself with an AI I got from Asia a week ago and am feeling better.

Should I start a new thread or post my labs here?

GO SEE A GOOD HRT DR LIKE DR JOHN ..be your best bet. 500 bucks for HGH ...your dr is way behind the times.

[crazycrew]

GO SEE A GOOD HRT DR LIKE DR JOHN ..be your best best. 500 bucks for HGH ...your dr is way behind the times.

Yea. I have all but made my mind up to cancel the apointment.

My MD doesn't think my problems are hormonal I assume. He saw my last labs and made no recomendations. So on my own I have decided to quit everything for now; and am feeling some better. When I start to slide the other way I will continue with the Androgel at 25% less and start taking an AI @ 1mg a week. I have left all of Dr Crislers protocols as well as his patient requirements for the MD to conference, but have heard nothing. He is my fourth doctor in six months but I suppose I'll have to keep looking.

Wish I could see Dr John,but I am well over 1000 miles from Lansing.:nopity:

[hardasnails1973]

Yea. I have all but made my mind up to cancel the apointment.

My MD doesn't think my problems are hormonal I assume. He saw my last labs and made no recomendations. So on my own I have decided to quit everything for now; and am feeling some better. When I start to slide the other way I will continue with the Androgel at 25% less and start taking an AI @ 1mg a week. I have left all of Dr Crislers protocols as well as his patient requirements for the MD to conference, but have heard nothing. He is my sixth doctor in six months but I suppose I'll have to keep looking.

Wish I could see Dr John,but I am well over 1000 miles from Lansing.:nopity:

where are you located?

[cpeil2]

500 bucks for HGH ...your dr is way behind the times.


That's about right - do the math - $10-15/IU, 1-2 IU/day.

[JanSz]

Post all tests that you have,
tell exactly what you are doing,
lets discuss your problem.

High E2 on transdermals is rare.

[crazycrew]

I am in north of Fort Worth about a hundred miles.

Why is it so much more expensive than the over seas products? (Dumb Question right)

[crazycrew]

Post all tests that you have,
tell exactly what you are doing,
lets discuss your problem.

High E2 on transdermals is rare.

Thanks JanSz, Since it will be a short story it will take some time to get it organized and typed up. I'm not sure I have complete copies of all my tests since I gave the AA Dr all my records Friday. I know I have some and will go from memory what is not here and I will get it posted tommorrow..

[may19th2001]

I have scheduled an appointment with an anti aging Dr who is a member of A4M. During a phone conversation I asked him about hcg and he said it has been linked to cancer so he does not subscribe to its use. Does anyone know what he is referring to or have information for me to take to counter him? Thanks.

Souds like he is full of it, HCG is very similar to your natural hormone LH.

Wonder if he also links studies to show that a healthy LH level is as well linked to cancer.

[JanSz]

Thanks JanSz, Since it will be a short story it will take some time to get it organized and typed up. I'm not sure I have complete copies of all my tests since I gave the AA Dr all my records Friday. I know I have some and will go from memory what is not here and I will get it posted tommorrow..

Take your time,
make it complete as best as you can,
go to your doc, ask for clean good quality copies,
stay on this thread,
do not open another thread,
when posting test results post:
what was tested, blood, urine, saliva, stool, etc
where tested, laboratory name
date
analyte name, value, units, range

.

[crazycrew]

Hey JanSz I've sent you a PM

This is a posting I placed on June 17 2008 on another forum before finding This forum.


###########################################


I've only just started reading the forums and have to say this by far has been the most inspirational and informative.

I discovered through a lab test my testosterone level was at 330.Supposedly normal for a 55 year old.

For the past year I have had no interest in doing much of anything (several posts here mirror my symptoms) so I went to the doc. One said loose weight and exercise the next said depression.

In the past I was a 5 ft 9 in 200 lb hulk; My normal has been 225 until a year or so ago when all this started. Now I weigh 264 (30 lbs of it in the past 6 months). A long time friend was diagnosed with low (250 count) testosterone and is permanently on replacement therapy.

According to the guidelines of the VA a 175 count is what they consider low. Anyway my friend gave me just less than a cc of cypiotren and even though I'm not a hundred percent; I feel better than I have in years.

Its hard to understand that if my count is in the "normal" range; why it is that within a day of the injection it was as if I had walked out of the fog and felt normal again..

I origionaly went to the VA to get tested for Alzhiemers. I thought I was going nuts. I Do appreciate my friends help.

I got the results of yesterdays labs from a new doctor today.. I told him the truth. That I had injected .75cc of test c 2 weeks ago, and that the day before this lab I had injected .50 cc. The results were that my test had increased from 330 three weeks ago to 599 today. My estradiol is at 57. It was not tested on the original labs. The Dr wants me to suspend any new test c injs and come back in 6 weeks for new labs.


Test 599
Estradiol 57
HCG quantitative <2
LH 0.3
prolactin 5.6

The more I read (and I have been, extensively) on this and other forums, make me realize that the subject of seroid cycling and or replacement theropy is a science that would take years of study for anyone to be able to completely comprehend . The more I learn the dumber I get. Already ordered test and AI but now wonder if I could get by with legits like Alpha Male or REZ-V.

I am going to follow the Drs advice since I he is known to do TRTs. So untill I get a new lab for a base line, I'll stay clear of everything and study. I'll just hope to keep the "fog" at bay.

########################################

A year ago I weighed 220, I now weigh 278 lbs, now I'm on 2 BP meds, water retention pills, 10mg androgel, fish oil, zinc, and multi vitamins.

My BP has been solid as a rock until I started all this. Probably took asprin a couple of times a year and had only seen a doctor twice in ten years.

I haven't been able to do much work for several months now. I've been having to pay someone to do some of my work for me. which cuts drasticly into my income.

[crazycrew]

The labs from 6 weeks later (base line) 7/22/08 showed everything normal except;

estradiol <10

LH 1.4 1.0-9.0
prolactin 6.2 - 3.0-30.
PSA 0.3 <4
Testosterone 230 241-827
##########################################
Labs From new Dr. 7/28/08 Six days later after doing .5cc of test C on 7/22/08 and daily Androgel dose of 10mg.

Cortisol Random 10 AM 7 - 25 ug/dl
Follicle stem hormone 0.4 L 1.5 - 14.0
T3 uptake 31.3 % 20.0 - 38.5
Free T4 1.20 073 - 1.95

Testosterone free/total 1221
DHT 1329. 36. -573.

################################################## #
dosage 10mg daily of Androgel
Labs from 12/18/08 (latest labs done) everything normal except

colesterol 205 H <200
HDL 29 L >39
LDL 154 H <100


WBC 10. 4.0-11.0
RBC 5.97 H 4.10-5.70
Hemogolobin 18.7 H 13.0-17.0
Mematocrit18.7 L 37.0-49.0


Estradol 103 H UP to 56.0

Testosterone,free/total with SHBG 1079 H 241-827

[crazycrew]

I could not get a few pages of the labs to upload so I may have to type it in later. but plenty here to look over for now.
Thanks everyone
####

http://family.webshots.com/photo/2796985640043179207IPFJkI

[JanSz]

Estradiol (<10pg/mL)(male up to 56 wrong e2 test
Estradiol-103(up to 56) wrong test ------------------------------
LU-1.4MIU/Ml(1.0-9.0)
FSH-2.4mIu/Ml
Prolactin-6.2ng/mL(3.0-30.0_
PSA-0.3ng/ML(,4.0)
Testosterone-230ng/dL(241-827)-------
Glucose-93mg/dL(65-100)-------
Glucose-75mg/dL(65-100)
Albumin-4.0G/dL(2.9-5)
Albumin-3.9G/dL(2.9-5)
Hematocrit-43.5%(37-49)
Hematocrit-55.9%(37-49)-----------------! ! ! !---(12/18/2008 labs)
Hemoglobin-18.7G/DL(13.0-17.0)--------
RBC-5.97M/UL(4.1-5.7)---------
TSH-2.5UIU/mL(0.3-6.1)
Cholesterol-205(<200) -------
Triglycerides-111(<150)------
HDL-29(>39)
Cholesterol-224(<200) -------
Triglycerides-88(<150)------
CalcLDL-179mg/dL9(<100)
HDL-27(>39)-------------------------
CO2-19nmol/l(23-30)--------------------------------\
TSH-2.6(0.3-5.1)
TestosteroneTotal-1079ng/dL
SHBG-40
FreeT-23.8ng/dl(6.0-27)
5/6/08 temperature-96.9F(36.1C), pulse-78, B/P-121/67, height 69"(5'-9")(175.26cm), weight-258lb(117.27kg), no pain
weigh 278 lbs, on 2 BP meds, water retention pills, 10mg androgel, fish oil, zinc, and multi vitamins.

6/13/08 doctor recomends to stop testosterone, he worries about E2=57(<56), LH and prolactin
He newer noted his high Hematocrit.

"I haven't been able to do much work for several months now. I've been having to pay someone to do some of my work for me. which cuts drasticly into my income."

================================================== ===
================================================== ===
You have few obvious problems and possibly some more.
You are
overweight
high cholesterol
high sugar
high blood pressure
have hemachromatosis
low testosterone
insufficient thyroid

Because of hemachromatosis you need much closer doctror's supervission and more frequent testing to monitor progress of TRT. You will need certain amount of blood letting (donations), to lower hematocrit. Not sure if you should have full (usually desirable) BioAvailableTestosterone level.

From what we know now, you should:
change your diet, loose weight, lower and adjust your cholesterol.
From your diet eliminate:
wheat, potato, rice, sugar, high-fructose, hydrogynated fats
Eat mostly:
proteins, green vegetables (greaner better), natural fats, fruits, minimize carbohydrate, specially any quantities of high GI carbohydrates. Do not buy processed food, you do not really know what is in it. Do not have to be organic but at least something that yor grandma would recognize as a food.

Buy jeans waist size 34", eventually you must fit in those jeans and belly must not stick out.

Get Niacin (vit B3), 500-750mg each pill, eat two of them every day.
That should (eventually) make your cholesterol better.
While we are at supplements

BetaCarotene- 25000iu
Vit B1 250mg
Vit B2 200mg
Vit B3 1500mg
Vit B6- PYRIDOXAMINE, 100mg
Vit B12
VitC 2grams/day
VitD 6000iu/day
VitE GAMMA E TOCOPHEROL/TOCOTRIENOL
Ubiquinol CoQ10 200 mg
------------
-----
Natural Beta-Carotene by NOW Foods - (25000IU - 180 Softgels)
-------http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Beta-Carotene-NOW-Foods-Softgels/dp/B000JN8GB8

Mega Benfotiamine (vit B1) 250 mg, 120 vegetarian capsules Item Catalog Number: 925
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00925/Mega-Benfotiamine.html

B2 Caps 100 mg, 100 capsules
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00093/Vitamin-B2.html

Vitamin B3 Niacin 500 mg, 100 capsules Item Catalog Number: 00372
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00372/Vitamin-B3-Niacin.html

Pyridoxamine Caps (Vit B6) 50 mg, 60 vegetarian capsules Item Catalog Number: 01207
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item01207/Pyridoxamine-Caps.html

Methylcobalamin (vit B12) 5 mg, 60 lozenges Item Catalog Number: 00537
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00537/Methylcobalamin.html

Vitamin C with Dihydroquercetin 1000 mg, 250 tablets Item Catalog Number: 00927
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00927/Vitamin-C-with-Dihydroquercetin.html

Biotic Research Bio-D-Mulsion Forte, 1drop=2000iu Vit D
---------http://www.amazon.com/Biotics-Research-Bio-D-Mulsion-Forte-1oz/dp/B000UQOCCQ

Gamma E Tocopherol with Sesame Lignans 60 softgels Item Catalog Number: 00759
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00759/Gamma-E-Tocopherol-with-Sesame-Lignans.html

Super Ubiquinol CoQ10 100 mg, 60 softgels Item Catalog Number: 01226
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item01226/Super-Ubiquinol-CoQ10.html

Super Omega-3 EPA/DHA 120 softgels Item Catalog Number: 00982
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00982/Super-Omega-3-EPA-DHA-with-Sesame-Lignans-Olive-Fruit-Extract.html
-------------------------------------------------------------
Why you have a very low Co2, smoker??, stop it now.
------------
------------
You are tired, high blood pressure, use diuretic pills, low body temperature.

Check adrenals and thyroid.
Best if you could do blood test at Quest Diagnostics, blood drawn at Quest.
7AM, fast 9-12hrs, come to lab at least 1/2 hour earlier to calm down.
Drink 12oz plain water 5:30AM
Hopefully these tests should sort it out, do those tests, post results:

7 • Iodine Panel - (2503)
8 Selenium
9 Copper, serum
10 Zinc
17 • Iron and Iron Binding Capacity (7573X) - (356N)
18 • Iron, Total (571X) - (24984P)
19 • Ferritin (457X) - (22764P)
20 • Transferrin (891X) - (30346P)
21 • Folate, RBC & Hematocrit - (1768N)
22 • Hemoglobin A1c (496X) - (45484P)
23 • Hemoglobin, Plasma (514X) - (7211P)
27 T3 Free
28 T4,Free
29 reverse T3 (rT3)
30 Ultrasensitive TSH
31 Thyroid Peroxidase and Thyroglobulin Antibodies (7260X)
35 IGF Binding protein-3
36 IGF-1
37 Aldosterone
38 Cortisol Binding Globulin (Transcortin) (37371X)
39 Cortisol AM/PM
40 DHEA sulfate
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
About your testosterone;
You will have to closely monitor your hematocrit and let enough blood (but not too much) to keep hematocrit below 49%
You may have to keep close tab on your iron stores. Above tests, line #17-23 will help, you may have to do some of those tests repeatedly.

Your earler tests (I think before you used testosterone) indicate low LH & FSH levels, well, end low Total testosterone levels.
That indicate that your testis may still be able to deliver some testosterone (no guarantee), we call that condition, secondary.
Your pituitary is not signaling to testis to increase production.

Your periodic blood tests should consist of:

19 • Ferritin (457X) - (22764P)
21 • Folate, RBC & Hematocrit - (1768N)
40 DHEA sulfate
46 Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)
47 Estrone, LC/MS/MS (23244X)
48 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS) Code: 14966X
49 Dihydrotestosterone (204X)
--------------

Your goals:
DHEAs(500-640)
E2(25-29)
BAT-460 (others want (460-575), but there is this high hematocrit thing,) BioavailableTestosterone
DHT(60-90)
---------------

When you do these tests first time you will look at DHT levels.
If DHT is low, you need to use transdermal testosterone
If DHT is within range, you need injectable testosterone

Transdermal-T applied daily, raises DHT but not E2
Injectable-T does not raise DHT, weekly shots raise E2, daily shots do not.
That is what happen often, there are frequent exceptions, blood tests are need to sort things out.

When you are ready for testosterone,
start with 250iu HCG EOD, that may be all that you need
may go up to 600iu HCG EOD, depending on your E2 status
May need Arimidex(pills)=Liquidex(liquid)=Anastrozole(liqui d) to control E2
No more than 1.5mg/week Anastrozole
If you still missing on BAT, start adding testosterone
-------------------------------

I am 69yo
I am not a doctor,
Whatewer you do, listen to your doctor's orders,
but be smart enough to get smart doctor.
Have to go now to see 35 of my girls at the dancig club.
They are impatient.
Talk to you latter.

.
.

[crazycrew]

Thanks JanSz

One of the tests ( 07/28/2008) showed my DHT to be over 1300, T3 at 31.0, Free T4 at 1.20, and calc free test at 27.0.

Low Co2 most probably due to sleep apnea which I'm not being treated for yet. The apnea started about 5 months ago. I think it is due to wieght gains.

I have stopped all test and AI a week ago and intend to do so for 5 more weeks and get new tests following your guidelines.

I may print up your recomendations here and present it to my MD and to the AA Dr to consider if thats ok by you.

[JanSz]

Thanks JanSz

One of the tests showed my DHT to be over 1300, T3 at 31.0, Free T4 at 1.20, and calc free test at 27.0.

Low Co2 most probably due to sleep apnea which I'm not being treated for yet. The apnea started about 5 months ago. I think it is due to wieght gains.

I have stopped all test and AI a week ago and intend to do so for 5 more weeks and get new tests following your guidelines.

I may print up your recomendations here and present it to my MD and to the AA Dr to consider if thats ok by you.

You posted 15 pages of tests. I revieved them again.
I am not able to locate DHT
Tell me where it is, or add units and range, also explain if you were using external testosterone and what kind.

Lots of your improvement will come from changing diet and getting your weight under control.
When you would feel hungry during dieting, increse amount of vegetables, they will fill you in.
Make sure that you eat meat, eggs, natural fats. No statins for lowering cholesterol.
Exercising is obviously good, but do not expect to loose any weight by exercising.

You may end up with more than one doctor.
Some doctors may not mind giving you scripts for blood tests and testosterone.
But you will need "non-typical" medications:
Arimidex
HCG
Cortef
Florinef
Armour
scripts for blood letting

that may present a problem.
Endocrinologists are logical but usually of no help plus waste of your time.
Your best bet is to look around for osteopaths.

Weight problems and diet is personally your responsibility, that should also help with sleep.

You are welcome to print and show to your doc anything that I post.
Post on your progress.
Do not use testosterone withouth monitoring your hematocrit (and blood letting as need).
You will need to keep tour TotalTestosterone around TT=1100-1200ng/dl
to have adequate BAT. Your SHBG=40, that is on a high side.

Post on your progress.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

When dealing with scripts for blood testing and medicines, make sure that your doctor writes apropriate ICD-9 codes.
Those codes will help you stay out of trouble with insurance.
The more of those ICD-9 codes doctor writes the better your chances.
Look at my post #44 between blue lines, here:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

There is list of tests that I do every 1-1.5 years.
On the bottom are my ICD-9 codes
below them is explanation of what they mean.
On script you need just the numbers (no need for explanations).

If you have a time peruse thru the whole 5 pages on that thread.
Stay on this thread so all your history is in one place.

Good luck.
.
.

Good luck.

[crazycrew]

Does't DHT stand for Dihydrotestosterone ?

I wasn't able to upload all the results The one 7/28/2008 is one. It had the results I posted. It showd 1329 PG/ml 36.-573.0

[JanSz]

Does't DHT stand for Dihydrotestosterone ?

Yes

[JanSz]

I wasn't able to upload all the results The one 7/28/2008 is one. It had the results I posted. It showed DHT at 1329 PG/ml 36.-573.0

Sorry about that.

I have been using Androgel.
This high DHT response to your course of Androgel (and good TT while at it) means couple things.
High TT means that your thyroid (most likely) is not far off.
Your last known body temperature was 36.1C (low).
Do you remember your body temperature, middle of the day, when feeling healthy, when 15-20 years old?
When we get to adjusting thyroid medicine, it would help to know that number. Do not want to suggest, but usually that number is somewhere (36.6C to 37C). Current low temperature makes loosing weight additionally difficult.

But when/if you are going to supplement with external testosterone,
use injectable testosterone, to avoid high DHT.
Depo-testosterone (cypionate)
make sure that it is 200mg/mL density
there is also 100mg/mL, people were reporting problems with it.

When/if you get to this subject of testosterone, you will start with HCG.
Three reasons.
Starting with testosterone first would shut down your testicles.
There is a chance that your testicles, when induced by HCG will produce most of required testosterone quantity.
Testicles are producing other hormones than just testosterone, you would loose that production (for sure) if you shut down your testis.
.
----------------------------------
I noted in
Your post #18
Quote:
Hihydro 1329. 36. -573.

For clariry, when re-reading in the future, if you wish, change Hihydro to DHT or Dihydrotestosterone.
--------------

[crazycrew]

I was surprised to see the body temp. It has been low now for months. All my life it was at 98.6 till now.. Thanks

What problems with the 100mg/ml? I have about a years supply (Asia) 2cc ampules with a 100 anabolic rating; that I bought before I was put on Androgel.

Oh yea, I have several pair of 35in pants gathering dust..

[JanSz]

I was surprised to see the body temp. It has been low now for months. All my life it was at 98.6 till now.. Thanks

What problems with the 100mg/ml? I have about a years supply (Asia) that I bought before I was put on Androgel.

98.6F=37C
your thyroid is going down, you have to do testing first.
Look in my previous posts for the tests that you have to have.
This is one of the reasons that you have gained weight.
The other, electrolyte imbalances, you have edema, (water pills).
Adrenals need attention.

Do not inject testosterone without doctor's supervission, period.
First, legal story, we are only legal here, second, you have hemachromatosis, your hematocrit gets elevated when you add testosterone. You may get a stroke if you do not let (proper amount of) blood.
Third, injecting testosterone will shut down your testis.
I explained your testosterone situation previously.
When you (eventually) get to injecting, blood tests will show your reaction to it. You will have to act accordingly.
.
I have updated your supplements list, post #20, more details.

[crazycrew]

I've decided to keep the appointment with the HRT DR, even though he doesn't use HCG. He can look over whats been done and probably order more labs. I'll be better prepared to discuss my situation thanks to you. He's 70 miles from me but the only one in the area.


I haven't been using any injectables. I bought them and the AI last June or July after having my friends help to realize that hormones were most likely my problem and having not been able to find a Dr that would even talk about TRT. Knowing there was no way I was going back to feeling as I did I decided I would treat myself as best I could till I could get proper care.

After getting set up with Dr Shelton I have only used as presribed untill recently when I used the AI to bring my E2 (103) down. Don't know what it is now but I feel better and stopped the AI 7 days ago. Stopped the Androgel 2 weeks ago.

Just returned from Drug Store and got most of the supplements you recommended.

ALso got a boat load of veggies and fruit. Let the healing begin.. :thumbup:

[JanSz]

I've decided to keep the appointment with the HRT DR, even though he doesn't use HCG. He can look over whats been done and probably order more labs. I'll be better prepared to discuss my situation thanks to you. He's 70 miles from me but the only one in the area.


I haven't been using any injectables. I bought them and the AI last June or July after having my friends help to realize that hormones were most likely my problem and having not been able to find a Dr that would even talk about TRT. Knowing there was no way I was going back to feeling as I did I decided I would treat myself as best I could till I could get proper care.

After getting set up with Dr Shelton I have only used as presribed untill recently when I used the AI to bring my E2 (103) down. Don't know what it is now but I feel better and stopped the AI 7 days ago. Stopped the Androgel 2 weeks ago.

Just returned from Drug Store and got most of the supplements you recommended.

ALso got a boat load of veggies and fruit. Let the healing begin.. :thumbup:

On post #24, on this thread:
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1777&page=3
there is a sample of diet that chilln uses.

You may want to peruse that whole thread.
-----------
Any bulletin board is here today, may be gone tommorow,
some of my threads I save to a hard drive on my computer.
File
save as...

(Web Archive, single file (*.mht)

I keep those files in designated folder.
The content may be recreated using MSExplorer.
We have moderators on this and other boards.
If they feel that they need to, they may edit or delete some posts or a whole threads.
You may find latter that some valuable (to you) information is gone.

Same goes for your computer.
Buy spare hard drive, best if some small portable that uses USB connection.

Make sure that you have good computer protection against intruders.
I can give you my (free) set up if you want.
-------------------------
Good that you have bought supplements.... but...
I edited list I originally have given you, by adding more information, and where I am getting mine.
Important details.
Not all vitamins that you are buying in the local Drug Store are desirable.
That goes for about all items on the list that I have given you.
Lots of study went into making those particular choices.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I am monitoring two other boards.
I store a lots of info here:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html
post #44 have a list of my blood and other tests
post #101 have info on how to do tests without doctor's scripts

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/primer-sub-q-testosterone-134259568.html

So there is more chances for staying in contact.
================================================== ===
How is your digestion, heartbutrn??
-------------------
With your low blood Co2 and sleep apnia, it may be wise to get help from (continuous positive airway pressure) (CPAP) machine.
Really, depends on how much it bothers you, how much it interupts your sleep. Body repairs it self during good sleep.
Hopefully it will go away with weight loss, but if it is not too much hassle, go get CPAP or at least try and see if you feel better with it.
================================================== ===
I am not against you using T-injections.
You just have to go thru proper process
first, to get most benefit (starting with HCG)
second, to not die of it, (hemachromatosis)
.
/

[crazycrew]

Jansz



I did notice your reference to Wilson Temperature Syndrome and noted that it is worth consideration as well... Thank you so much..

[JanSz]

Add these tests so Wilson's syndrome can be taken into account, (I updated the list on post #44 so the numbers are different)

27 T3, Total (859X)
28 T4, Total (Thyroxine)


Also we have to discuss your low Co2, sleep apnea.
Most likely you will have to use CPAP machine.
Hopefully that problem will go away after you get into better weight range.
==================================

We have a friend here, his nick name is hemachromatosis.
Hopefully he will have something to say.
.
==================================

Consultations of your doc with dr John are (theoretically) good idea.
But you have to be carefull, dr John's (cutting edge) approach is rarely agreable to the main stream doctors. I have not seen anybody reporting here his experience with such arrangement.
All scripts would have to be written by your local doctor on orders from dr John.
First make sure that your doc would write script for these medications when asked.

Medicines prepared by compounding pharmacies
Injectable or transdermal testosterone
Arimidex
HCG
Cortef
Florinef
Armour
scripts for blood letting

When you are looking for doctors, look among osteopaths.
Actually there is one more, preferably you would like a doctor who also does nutritional test or would not mind ordering them.

.

[crazycrew]

The A4M Dr just called to cancel tommorrows appointment.. He said that after reviewing my records he does not believe he can help me. He suggested that I find an endocrinologist.:beatdeadhorse5:

The low co2 reading was only on one lab. All the others were normal and this make me wonder if it may have been a fluke. I bought a CPAP off Craigs list a couple of weeks ago but since it wasn't preset for me; I found the pressure too high as well as too obtrusive. I will be going to the VA for a sleep study soon and hope to get a recommendation to see and ENT. Deviated septum (several times) causes breathing thru my nose all but obstructed.

Ive been monitoring my BP and temp every 3 or so hours. And the bp is back in the normal range (meds). But my temp ranges from 95.8 to 96.6. I'm getting anouther thermometer tonight.:ack2:

[cpeil2]

The A4M Dr just called to cancel tommorrows appointment.. He said that after reviewing my records he does not believe he can help me. He suggested that I find an endocrinologist.:beatdeadhorse5:

The low co2 reading was only on one lab. All the others were normal and this make me wonder if it may have been a fluke.

Ive been monitoring my BP and temp every 3 or so hours. And the bp is back in the normal range (meds). But my temp ranges from 95.8 to 96.6.:ack2:


CO2 fluctuates from minute to minute - it could be nothing.

[JanSz]

The A4M Dr just called to cancel tommorrows appointment.. He said that after reviewing my records he does not believe he can help me. He suggested that I find an endocrinologist.:beatdeadhorse5:

The low co2 reading was only on one lab. All the others were normal and this make me wonder if it may have been a fluke. I bought a CPAP off Craigs list a couple of weeks ago but since it wasn't preset for me; I found the pressure too high as well as too obtrusive. I will be going to the VA for a sleep study soon and hope to get a recommendation to see and ENT. Deviated septum (several times) causes breathing thru my nose all but obstructed.

Ive been monitoring my BP and temp every 3 or so hours. And the bp is back in the normal range (meds). But my temp ranges from 95.8 to 96.6. I'm getting anouther thermometer tonight.:ack2:
endo, do not waste your time

About low Co2,
ask for comments of someone who watches you sleeping,

buy meter with program, cost around $250, I posted on it week or two ago, search. Also discussion over there may help some.

do sleep study

do nothing at this time, hopefully it will resolve when you adjust other aspects.
================================================== ===

Finding a right doctor is going to be a difficult task.
Eventually you may want to tell some half/good candidate that you would like to manage part of the project.
Saying that and not offending at the same time will require diplomacy.

================================================== ===

Send e-mail or call the link I have on the bottom of this post:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/84415-perfect-way-finding.html

give them your zip, they should send you a list of docs that they deal with.

Do your interviews from that list.
You will need some tests from that lab, doc who have account there is handy.
---------------------------------

You may also contact compounding pharmacy in your area, go there, ask about name of doctors that they deal with.

peruse post #56
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

[crazycrew]

Consultations of your doc with dr John are (theoretically) good idea.
But you have to be carefull, dr John's (cutting edge) approach is rarely agreable to the main stream doctors. I have not seen anybody reporting here his experience with such arrangement.
All scripts would have to be written by your local doctor on orders from dr John.
First make sure that your doc would write script for these medications when asked.

Finding a right doctor is going to be a difficult task.
Eventually you may want to tell some half/good candidate that you would like to manage part of the project.
Saying that and not offending at the same time will require diplomacy.



Ok Time to bite the bullet.. Going to call Dr Johns office to see if I can get an appointment in March or April.

#############

Rented one of the machines you mentioned and it showed a substancial number of episodes of low oxygen during one nights sleep. Have printout of results I am taking to VA to justify a sleep study.

#############

Great Idea about visiting Compounding Pharmacies.. Thanks.

[JanSz]

Good Morning JanSz, I was looking to get blood work done soon but I need to keep the price around 400.00. What do you think of this LEF test?

http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/ItemLCRTM/Male-Hormone-Re-Test-Profile.html
Send me a link to a place where we discussed your problem.
Thank you

I have your list of reqested labs but financial restrants force me to choose a stream lined course of action.
I am feeling better since I quit Androgel and donated blood. I have started supplementing test @ .5MG a week. and .5mg AI a week.
-------
I have looked at the LEF website and the different groups of tests they offer and thought the one I mentioned might work but wanted to check with you in case you had a better idea.
-----
I don't think I'll need the basic BW since I will be having BW done at the VA next week. They might run the TT and E2 but dout they would run any others.
The sleep study has been scheduled in 3 weeks but the strange thing is that I have started having normal sleep patterns this past week.
I suggest that you do not do any tests for which you have to pay from your own pocket.
Get the most that you can get at VA.
Post results when you get them.
We will talk about additional testing latter.

I am confused by (test @ .5MG a week)
That would be insignificant dose.
For example I do testosterone 154mg/week

You still did not have given me link to the place where we had detailed discussion.
My memory in not as it used to be.

I'm sorry JanSz. thought I did. My memory could use a boost too...
------
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2650&page=2
Ok keep in mind posts
#20
#23
#28
#30
#32
on this thread

[Dr. John Crisler]

Yes, there is an association, but your doc may misunderstand the association.

hCG is not normally produced by healthy men. It is a pregancy hormone produced by the corpus luteum after fertilization, so it is usually only detectable in the urine of pregant females.

The only time a man produces hCG is if he has certain (not all) types of testicular cancer. A positive hCG assay in a man who is not using exogenous hCG is persuasive evidence of testicular CA.


So the association is that certain types of testicular cancer produce hCG, but that does not mean that hCG causes testicular cancer.

In fact, hCG has been used as an LH analogue in both men and women to stimulate fertility for decades and has not been shown to cause testicular cancer.

Squarely on the head.

This is a classic err in thinking made by physicians: he's got the cart pushing the horse.

[crazycrew]

I have compiled an edited your posts to take with me to Drs appointments to both inform the Dr and for me to use as reference. I wanted you to review and edit as you think is needed. Since there was no responce to it I can assume it was ok. Thanks.

[crazycrew]

It's too soon to rejoice but for the past 10 days or so I have been feeling progresively better. I have slept though the nights without interuption (2 nights up to pee). I even slept on my back all night one night. My sinus canals have been clear too. I have been on a 1500 calorie a day diet.
My body temp has increased from 95.7 mornings to 97.8. During the day it gets up to 98.8.
Still no sex drive.

As far as changes in my treatment, I quit the Androgel 2 month ago. Donate blood . Six weeks ago I started taking
.5cc Test C/100mg/ml twice a week
.5mg Arimidex a week
Three weeks ago The Diet Dr added
1 graim Westtroid
37.5 phentermine
And a week ago I increased my test to 1cc Test C/100mg/ml twice a week

The Westthroid is the main component I think for the improvement.

Even went to Accadamy yesterday to get some gym shorts that would fit. Going to the gym this morning for the first time. I've had a membership for 2 months. Look for me on Americas funiest. I'll be the fat ass thrown thru the wall from a treadmill. The last time I was in a gym was high school and a bench with foam and naugahide was high tech.
I've always gotten my exercise from hard work and play. Sailing, motorbikes, fishing.

[chilln]

It's too soon to rejoice but for the past 10 days or so I have been feeling progresively better. I have slept though the nights without interuption (2 nights up to pee). I even slept on my back all night one night. My sinus canals have been clear too. I have been on a 1500 calorie a day diet.
My body temp has increased from 95.7 mornings to 97.8. During the day it gets up to 98.8.
Still no sex drive.

As far as changes in my treatment, I quit the Androgel 2 month ago. Donate blood . Six weeks ago I started taking
.5cc Test C/100mg/ml twice a week
.5mg Arimidex a week
Three weeks ago The Diet Dr added
1 graim Westtroid
37.5 phentermine
And a week ago I increased my test to 1cc Test C/100mg/ml twice a week

The Westthroid is the main component I think for the improvement.

Even went to Accadamy yesterday to get some gym shorts that would fit. Going to the gym this morning for the first time. I've had a membership for 2 months. Look for me on Americas funiest. I'll be the fat ass thrown thru the wall from a treadmill. The last time I was in a gym was high school and a bench with foam and naugahide was high tech.
I've always gotten my exercise from hard work and play. Sailing, motorbikes, fishing.


Keep testing your E2 and thyroid. Try not to succumb to infrequent testing. Well done.

[JanSz]

It's too soon to rejoice but for the past 10 days or so I have been feeling progresively better. I have slept though the nights without interuption (2 nights up to pee). I even slept on my back all night one night. My sinus canals have been clear too. I have been on a 1500 calorie a day diet.
My body temp has increased from 95.7 mornings to 97.8. During the day it gets up to 98.8.
Still no sex drive.

As far as changes in my treatment, I quit the Androgel 2 month ago. Donate blood . Six weeks ago I started taking
.5cc Test C/100mg/ml twice a week
.5mg Arimidex a week
Three weeks ago The Diet Dr added
1 graim Westtroid
37.5 phentermine
And a week ago I increased my test to 1cc Test C/100mg/ml twice a week

The Westthroid is the main component I think for the improvement.

Even went to Accadamy yesterday to get some gym shorts that would fit. Going to the gym this morning for the first time. I've had a membership for 2 months. Look for me on Americas funiest. I'll be the fat ass thrown thru the wall from a treadmill. The last time I was in a gym was high school and a bench with foam and naugahide was high tech.
I've always gotten my exercise from hard work and play. Sailing, motorbikes, fishing.

Good that you have got a doctor, may want to discuss this with him:

Even with your (high) SHBG=40
you should not do more than 150mg/week testosterone
specially that you have limited means for testing.
That would be 2/week of 0.75cc Test C/100mg/ml
Good that you decided on 2x/week schedule.


Testing vise, minimum

Hematocrit
E2-ultrasensitive
FreeT3
--------------------------------------
And if you had to pick just one test, I would do FreeT3

and what is the arrangement with your blood donations?
--------------------------------------
HDL-27(>39)--->Niacin

Phentermine, a contraction for "phenyl-tertiary-butylamine", is an appetite suppressant
================================================== ======
http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lab_tests.php?view=all

[JanSz]

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35940&postcount=9


Me too unfortunatly. For some reason I was thinking the total would be in the 2k area which is doable. Oh well, maybe next year. :ack2:

But I thought that in the mean time, based on discussions on board, you have figured half-decent plan to tie you over until then? What is it?

hopefully you are doing phlebotomies, high hematocrite
trying to fit in to 34 size pants

===================
with insufficient money absolute minimum of testing

Hematocrit
E2, sensitive
FreeT3

http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lab_tests.php?view=all&show=1246&category=12&search=#1246

Iron, Comprehensive Panel $54.49
Estradiol, Sensitive $68.49
Tri-iodothyronine (T3), Free, Serum $49.49
or

Thyroid TSH w/ Free T4 & Free T3 $78.49
Reverse T3 $59.49
.

[crazycrew]

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35940&postcount=9



But I thought that in the mean time, based on discussions on board, you have figured half-decent plan to tie you over until then? What is it?

hopefully you are doing phlebotomies, high hematocrite
trying to fit in to 34 size pants


.



Still feeling good and sleeping well; so yes I am doing good on the posted plan. I was wanting to get Dr J look things over rather than treating myself is all.
I've lost 16 lbs so far and donating blood at the Red Cross regularly.

1cc Test C/100mg/ml twice a week
.5mg Arimidex EW
1 graim Westtroid daily
37.5 phentermine daily


I go in for the sleep study tuesday even though I'm not sure I need it now. Have an appointment with a new VA doctor on the 3rd and will try to get updated Labs.
Thanks.

[crazycrew]

After having such good sleep these past weeks I was surprised to discover that I do indead have sleep apnea. According to the doctor I am in the mid range of severity. He said I stopped breathing 13 times during the night and 3 times a minute my oxygen levels dropped to low.
So I got a top of the line CPAP and will have to learn to tolarate it.
If I am that bad off now I must have been really bad a few weeks ago. Scary.

I also got in touch with Dr P office in Florida and he wants me on
1.5ML of test c 200 anabolic Weekly
1mg Armidex Weekly
1000ui HCG Weekly
He did give me a call;

These supplies (11 weeks ) will be delivered today.

I will still be taking the Phentermine and Westroid as before.
I have some pregnenolone cream and DHEA coming but I think I will wait to start using these untill I see how every thing else goes.

I will start with 500ui HCG a week and split the doses of all the meds. I've been reading more about IM inj with HCG and wonder if it is worth considering.

[living2die]

May I ask what the phentermine is prescribed? I wasn't aware that doctors still prescribed that type of amphetamine.

Your HRT regiment prescribed by the Doc is quite aggressive. Are you 2ndary or primary? If you are 2ndary, I would cut out all T and go with hCG mono. You are going to gain a lot of mass on that HRT regiment, and if you are prescribed the phentermine for weightloss, this certainly will exacerbate issues.

I'm only taking a little bit more than your 1000IU PW of hCG, but I'm also not taking any exo T.

Also, I would recommend that you get on scripted PREG TD cream. EXO T ADMINISTRATION NEVER DID ANYTHING FOR ME IN MY CASE...I JUST BLOATED LIKE NO OTHER AND FELT DEPRESSED. I would take 200mg PD of PREG TD, test for pregnanediol, and go from there.

IMO, PREG TD is the most underrated HRT weapon.


After having such good sleep this past weeks I was surprised to discover that I do indead have sleep apnea. According to the doctor I am in the mid range of severity. He said I would stop breathing once every 3 minutes and 3 times a minute my oxygen levels dropped to low.
So I got a top of the line CPAP and will have to learn to tolarate it.
If I am that bad off now I must have been really bad a few weeks ago. Scary.

I also got in touch with Dr P office in Florida and he wants me on
1cc of test c 200 anabolic Weekly
1mg Armidex Weekly
1000ui HCG Weekly
He did give me a call; but as Gman said this dosage appears to be a "cookie cutter" type of treatment.

These supplies (11 weeks ) will be delivered today.

I will still be taking the Phentermine and Westroid as before.
I have some pregnenolone cream and DHEA coming but I think I will wait to start using these untill I see how every thing else goes.

I will start with 500ui HCG a week and split the doses of all the meds.

[crazycrew]

I was prescribed 1 Phentermine 37.5 and 1 gm Westroid daily as part of a weight loss program and so far have lost over 15 lbs.


Not sure if I am secondary or not but suspect that I was before starting trt 6 months ago. My T at that time was 330 240-875

The Pregnenolone Cream 2oz I got from Life-Flo. The DHEA is from Nature's Blend.

[JanSz]

Still feeling good and sleeping well; so yes I am doing good on the posted plan. I was wanting to get Dr J look things over rather than treating myself is all.
I've lost 16 lbs so far and donating blood at the Red Cross regularly.

1cc Test C/100mg/ml twice a week
.5mg Arimidex EW
1 graim Westtroid daily
37.5 phentermine daily


I go in for the sleep study tuesday even though I'm not sure I need it now. Have an appointment with a new VA doctor on the 3rd and will try to get updated Labs.
Thanks.

Good that you are making progress,
doctor vise
sleep vise
loosing weight

The 200mg/week testosterone is rather large dose,
but
not really that far away from 190mg that my table indicates for SHBG=40
The long term answer is in testing/adjusting any how.
I think it is good that you start from a high end on test shots, that should put a pressure on SHBG and with time get it lowered.
Until you get SHBG into real low 20's, I would aim BAT at the top range or even slightly higher, BATest(342, 460-575)ng/dL, to put more pressure on SHBG.
That will require you to be that much more diligent about keeping your E2 in range, plus, possibly, more than usual dose of Arimidex=Liquidex

I would rather if you split your test to say 3x/week or E3D since it may be hard for you to do EOD shots.

Personally I do my blood draw 48hrs after T-shot.
---------------------------------------------------

At the moment you are taking 1 grain Westroid
without much knowledge about your thyroid or adrenals.
Well, Cortisol Random 10 AM 7 - 25 ug/dl, good sign.
Since you are doing ok on Westroid, lost weight, feeling good, talk to your doc about taking 25mcg/day of Cytomel(t3) instead of Westroid(T4+T3).
May help you even more with weight loss and your low body temperature.
---------------------------------------------------

I would not take Pregnenolone Cream, without testing, (minimize list of supplements)
But would keep taking DHEA. Good DHEAs levels should help to clarify
DHEAs
Pregnenolone
Progesterone
situation.
---------------------------------------------------

Are you taking any supplements that I listed on post #20?

/

[living2die]

Get your doc to prescribe you a PREG TD. In your case I would start with 300mg PD. (This is high). I would take the exo T out of your HRT, and kick your HCG up (do a HCG stim test). I will provide you with a study showing that sub c PREG injections increase the dopamine response of Cocaine. Amphetamine isn't cocaine, but I would expect amphetamine virtually to substitute for cocaine in this case. Adding the TD PREG in there will prevent you from developing a major tolerance to the bennies.

PREG TD has an enormous hypophagic response in me. It kills my appetite. I have a slew of studies that back me up on this.



I was prescribed 1 Phentermine 37.5 and 1 gm Westroid daily as part of a weight loss program and so far have lost over 15 lbs.


Not sure if I am secondary or not but suspect that I was before starting trt 6 months ago. My T at that time was 330 240-875

The Pregnenolone Cream 2oz I got from Life-Flo. The DHEA is from Nature's Blend.

[rick055]

Get your doc to prescribe you a PREG TD. In your case I would start with 300mg PD. (This is high). I would take the exo T out of your HRT, and kick your HCG up (do a HCG stim test). I will provide you with a study showing that sub c PREG injections increase the dopamine response of Cocaine. Amphetamine isn't cocaine, but I would expect amphetamine virtually to substitute for cocaine in this case. Adding the TD PREG in there will prevent you from developing a major tolerance to the bennies.

PREG TD has an enormous hypophagic response in me. It kills my appetite. I have a slew of studies that back me up on this.

Not to take a thread OT, but I am on a small dose of adderall xr. Do I have to consider a TD preg interaction?

[living2die]

Probably not. If you are taking oral, than it is an irrelevant concern. The studies recognizing the potentiated dopamine response following administration of cocaine in pre-treated PREG sub c group used doses as high as 10mg/kg and as low as 2-3mg/kg (or in the ballpark). You need to be taking a lot of PREG TD (according to the studies) for PREG's dopamine modulating effects to take hold.


Not to take a thread OT, but I am on a small dose of adderall xr. Do I have to consider a TD preg interaction?

[crazycrew]

Get your doc to prescribe you a PREG TD. In your case I would start with 300mg PD. (This is high). I would take the exo T out of your HRT, and kick your HCG up (do a HCG stim test). I will provide you with a study showing that sub c PREG injections increase the dopamine response of Cocaine. Amphetamine isn't cocaine, but I would expect amphetamine virtually to substitute for cocaine in this case. Adding the TD PREG in there will prevent you from developing a major tolerance to the bennies.

PREG TD has an enormous hypophagic response in me. It kills my appetite. I have a slew of studies that back me up on this.


Strictly speaking Phentermine isn't an amphetimine. The FDA states because it is similar to amphetamines, it is classified as a controlled substance.

I will be considering the Preg TD and discuss it with my Dr but for now I think I will follow standard protocols untill I get well. I have only been studying this subject for a few months and feel comfortable enough now with what I know about trt that I can start studying the alternative approches.

I would appreciate any info you could share. THanks

[crazycrew]

Good that you are making progress,
doctor vise
sleep vise
loosing weight

The 200mg/week testosterone is rather large dose,
but
not really that far away from 190mg that my table indicates for SHBG=40
The long term answer is in testing/adjusting any how.
I think it is good that you start from a high end on test shots, that should put a pressure on SHBG and with time get it lowered.
Until you get SHBG into real low 20's, I would aim BAT at the top range or even slightly higher, BATest(342, 460-575)ng/dL, to put more pressure on SHBG.
That will require you to be that much more diligent about keeping your E2 in range, plus, possibly, more than usual dose of Arimidex=Liquidex

I would rather if you split your test to say 3x/week or E3D since it may be hard for you to do EOD shots.

Personally I do my blood draw 48hrs after T-shot.
---------------------------------------------------

At the moment you are taking 1 grain Westroid
without much knowledge about your thyroid or adrenals.
Well, Cortisol Random 10 AM 7 - 25 ug/dl, good sign.
Since you are doing ok on Westroid, lost weight, feeling good, talk to your doc about taking 25mcg/day of Cytomel(t3) instead of Westroid(T4+T3).
May help you even more with weight loss and your low body temperature.
---------------------------------------------------

I would not take Pregnenolone Cream, without testing, (minimize list of supplements)
But would keep taking DHEA. Good DHEAs levels should help to clarify
DHEAs
Pregnenolone
Progesterone
situation.
---------------------------------------------------

Are you taking any supplements that I listed on post #20?

/

I have recieved my meds and He prescribed 1.5 ML a week of Test cyp 200MG/ML; 1000ui of HCG split on days 4 and 5 after test.

How would be the best way to split these so they don't counter each other?

Haven't gotten to the lists of suppliments yet but I will soon.

There are so many contradictions on these things. I read somewhere that it would be dangerous to take DHEA if not taking the prog too.

The DHEA I have is 25 mg tablets.

[JanSz]

I have recieved my meds and He prescribed 1.5 ML a week of Test cyp 200MG/ML; 1000ui of HCG split on days 4 and 5 after test.

How would be the best way to split these so they don't counter each other?

Haven't gotten to the lists of suppliments yet but I will soon.

There are so many contradictions on these things. I read somewhere that it would be dangerous to take DHEA if not taking the prog too.

The DHEA I have is 25 mg tablets.

1.5ml*200mg/mL=300mg/week, that is a lot, that is definitely too much for you.

Consider calling you doc and ask for these changes:
1#-schedule either 2/week or better E3D
2#-change to 200mg/week(average)

I assume you will do E3D
each shot =43units=86mg
0.43*200*7/3=200.7mg/week average

1000iu is nicely divisible/4
250iu on days between shots.
-----------------------------------------------------------

You will end up with poking your self every day anyhow.
I lasted on this mental exercise myself, for about a week and half,
then changed to (T & hcg) on alternate days.
-----------------------------------------------------------
If you will go thru the same route then equivalent EOD schedule is:

T-shot=28units=56mg
HCG-shot=250iu

0.58*200*7/2=203mg/week average

note, 28 units still fits into 3/10cc syringe
-------------------------------------------------------------

As long as you will take DHEA 50mg/week (for starters), do what makes you comfortable about pregnenolone.
I would not use it at this time, to simplify protocol.
I would rather wait and see what blood test shows.
--------------------------------------------------------------
.......

[crazycrew]

E gads Shots every day? I can see my days of coffee and beer being my only drugs are long gone. Thanks JanSz

[JanSz]

E gads Shots every day? I can see my days of coffee and beer being my only drugs are long gone. Thanks JanSz

If you have a friend with diabetis who is using insuline, ask him to show you how he is doing his shots 2 or 3x/day.
Wery helpfull.
Or just take him to brekfast, lunch and dinner and watch how he is doing his shots (thru shirt) by the table, will give you some perspective.

It is really no newer mind stuff once you get a hang of it.

.

[crazycrew]

I'm sure that this has been covered countless times here; could someone point me to a thread that covers how to break down the ui measurements into cc incraments on the syringes?

[JanSz]

I'm sure that this has been covered countless times here; could someone point me to a thread that covers how to break down the ui measurements into cc incraments on the syringes?

Insuline syringes come in three volume sizes and number of needle sizes in each of the volume size.

1ml=1cc
0.5ml=0.5cc
3/10cc

1mL is divided into 100units

1ml=1cc=100units
0.5ml=0.5cc=50units
3/10cc=30units

All syringes have markings in one unit increments
Some syringes have also markings in a half units (separately, so there is no confussion)

This is syringe that I use, there is no need for scripts.
Note that the price is almost double comparing to other available syringes.
I hope I am getting my money's worth, they are ineed real sharp and sure, even after I go 4x thru rubber stopper while diluting HCG and on the end use that same syringe to do my shot.

http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HOP&Product_Code=4724290&Product_Count=&Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95

Other sizes:

http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HOP&Product_Code=4724266&Product_Count=&Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 1/2cc 5/16inch Short Needle 100/box Price: $25.95

http://hocks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=HOP&Product_Code=4724316&Product_Count=&Category_Code=
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 1cc 5/16inch Short Needle 100/box Price: $25.95
.
.

[crazycrew]

Your earler tests (I think before you used testosterone) indicate low LH & FSH levels, well, end low Total testosterone levels.
That indicate that your testis may still be able to deliver some testosterone (no guarantee), we call that condition, secondary.
Your pituitary is not signaling to testis to increase production.

.
.
As I understand it; If I were to quit using Test my serum levels should return to the levels (330, low end of normal) I had before starting 8 months ago. If this is the case I am thinking perhaps I might do well on HCG mono theropy. If one were to try this; should test be reduced in stages or just dropped?

[chilln]

As I understand it; If I were to quit using Test my serum levels should return to the levels (330, low end of normal) I had before starting 8 months ago. If this is the case I am thinking perhaps I might do well on HCG mono theropy. If one were to try this; should test be reduced in stages or just dropped?

Just slowly phase T (testosterone) out, while you slowly phase HCG in.

[crazycrew]

Of the three treatments; ie Test + AI + preg creame + DHEA, Test + HCG + AI, or HCG monotheropy; which has the least negitive side effects?

And if one is seconday, is HCG mono considered the best approach and if so why?

I wish there were some kind of a flow chart that would break down the interactions of the adrenals and hormones in relation to each other.

[living2die]

I was in a similar situation as you, and quit T cold turkey...it was the best HRT decision I have made. In my case, the hype around T is just a myth. T did nothing for me psychologically, even when my T was in the upper range of normal. I think many members on this board will attest to you that if you are 2ndary, HCG mono is the way to go. John Crisler, Dr. Shippen, etc. and other HRT docs will tell you the same. In that sense, this board is on the cutting edge. In your case, did you feel subjectively psychologically better when you started T?

Also, note that regardless of whether you go on HCG mono, or stick with TRT, you will need a good TD PREG to compensate for the depletion of PREG over long term HRT/TRT use.


Of the three treatments; ie Test + AI + preg creame + DHEA, Test + HCG + AI, or HCG monotheropy; which has the least negitive side effects?

And if one is seconday, is HCG mono considered the best approach and if so why?

I wish there were some kind of a flow chart that would break down the interactions of the adrenals and hormones in relation to each other.

[crazycrew]

In your case, did you feel subjectively psychologically better when you started T?


Absolutly. I felt like a teenager again for a few days and chased trt as my cure. No doubt I was low on T and my adrinals were slightly off. However it turned out that I was seriously sleep deprived when I took my first dose of test as well.

[living2die]

Please review link. I have about 10 studies in my research folder which come to the same conclusion regarding exo-Androgens and their suppression of cortisol mediated effects in vivo.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118554393/abstract

If your adrenals were out of wack to begin with, exo-T could further perpetuate the problem by futher suppressing adrenal gland related hormone production in the body (i.e. cortisol).

Maybe the reason for so many allthingsmale members being treated for low cortisol as well as receving coadministration of TRT/HRT regiments is due to exo-Androgens suppressive nature of adrenal and stress related hormones...



Absolutly. I felt like a teenager again for a few days and chased trt as my cure. No doubt I was low on T and my adrinals were off as well. However it turned out that I was seriously sleep deprived when I took my first dose of test as well.

[chilln]

Please review link. I have about 10 studies in my research folder which come to the same conclusion regarding exo-Androgens and their suppression of cortisol mediated effects in vivo.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118554393/abstract

If your adrenals were out of wack to begin with, exo-T could further perpetuate the problem by futher suppressing adrenal gland related hormone production in the body (i.e. cortisol).

Maybe the reason for so many allthingsmale members being treated for low cortisol as well as receving coadministration of TRT/HRT regiments is due to exo-Androgens suppressive nature of adrenal and stress related hormones...


Exogenous T suppresses testicular testosterone production, which in turn suppresses all testicular hormone production. But our testicles do not produce cortisol.

Exogenous T suppresses adrenal testosterone in adult male humans.
But this reduction of adrenal T does not indirectly suppress adrenal cortisol.

Exogenous T does not directly suppress adrenal cortisol.

HOWEVER:
when a male human (not a goat) has continually high cortisol, and when that high cortisol is as a result of not having sufficient T levels to heal himself overnight, combined with a relatively high level of daily mental and / or physical stressors (hard or stressful work),
THEN:
the application of exogenous T will over time (usually days or weeks, rarely hours) cause that person's cortisol levels to return to normal (reduce).
BECAUSE:
this male's cortisol levels were only high in order to suppress the central nervous system overload from the intense signaling being triggered by his damaged cells.
So as those damaged cells are gradually repaired (due to increased levels of T), then the signal intensity of the "fix me I'm broken" messages is reduced, and therefore cortisol (which is needed to suppress excess amounts of "fix me I'm broken" messages) also reduces.

####

But when a male has low cortisol, (which in turn is usually as a result of adrenal fatigue, which is in itself usually as a result of low T and/or low GH = growth hormone, combined with excess mental and/or physical stressors) then the application of exogenous T does not continue to suppress cortisol.

[living2die]

CRH-stimulated cortisol levels as well as peak cortisol and greatest cortisol excursion were significantly lower (p < .05, .005, and .01, respectively) during testosterone replacement compared with the induced hypogonadal condition (leuprolide plus placebo); cortisol area under the curve was lower at a trend level (p < .1).

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1470424






Exogenous T suppresses testicular testosterone production, which in turn suppresses all testicular hormone production. But our testicles do not produce cortisol.

Exogenous T suppresses adrenal testosterone in adult male humans.
But this reduction of adrenal T does not indirectly suppress adrenal cortisol.

Exogenous T does not directly suppress adrenal cortisol.

HOWEVER:
when a male human (not a goat) has continually high cortisol, and when that high cortisol is as a result of not having sufficient T levels to heal himself overnight, combined with a relatively high level of daily mental and / or physical stressors (hard or stressful work),
THEN:
the application of exogenous T will over time (usually days or weeks, rarely hours) cause that person's cortisol levels to return to normal (reduce).
BECAUSE:
this male's cortisol levels were only high in order to suppress the central nervous system overload from the intense signaling being triggered by his damaged cells.
So as those damaged cells are gradually repaired (due to increased levels of T), then the signal intensity of the "fix me I'm broken" messages is reduced, and therefore cortisol (which is needed to suppress excess amounts of "fix me I'm broken" messages) also reduces.

####

But when a male has low cortisol, (which in turn is usually as a result of adrenal fatigue, which is in itself usually as a result of low T and/or low GH = growth hormone, combined with excess mental and/or physical stressors) then the application of exogenous T does not continue to suppress cortisol.

[crazycrew]

CRH-stimulated cortisol levels as well as peak cortisol and greatest cortisol excursion were significantly lower (p < .05, .005, and .01, respectively) during testosterone replacement compared with the induced hypogonadal condition (leuprolide plus placebo); cortisol area under the curve was lower at a trend level (p < .1).

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1470424


Now thats as clear as mud to an Oklahoma hillbilly.:svengo:

[living2die]

Yup, the only word I could pick out from the study that was familiar to me was cortisol. Maybe chilln could jump in this and try and translate this for me and the other less than inclined medical linguists.

AAS + T do act on cortisol in some manner. Whether AAS + T block the cortisol receptors in the muscle/CNS is beyond me. The anabolism that results from these drugs is enhanced by the drugs actions at the cortisol receptor. AAS + T outcompete T at the cortisol receptor cite, enhancing anabolism. My question is with AAS + T, while blocking cortisol at the cortisol receptor sites (similar in the manner that Tamoxifen competes with estrogen at the estrogen receptor, while not decreasing aggregate estrogen circulation, just outcompeting estrogen at the receptor site), could one have symptoms of low cortisol when T/AAS are used? Does these drugs block the cortisol/glucocorticoid receptors in the brain/HPA axis? Yeh I realize I am opening up a can of worms and I poorly articulated my message :ack2:


Now thats as clear as mud to an Oklahoma hillbilly.:svengo:

[crazycrew]

note that regardless of whether you go on HCG mono, or stick with TRT, you will need a good TD PREG to compensate for the depletion of PREG over long term HRT/TRT use.


I found a post on another board with a quote attributed to Dr Crisler - here's the quote from that post:

"No. He probably feels that since you suffer primary hypogonadism (I am
guessing) there is no use in adding HCG to your protocol. There are several
reasons why this is not so. First, you have not lost all Leydig cells, so any
HCG you take will stimulate those who still function to produce endogenous
testosterone.

This will support testicular size. We should not ignore this aesthetic
consideration.

Next, if he reads my work, he will learn that HPTA-suppressed (as all TRT
patients are to some extent) also suffer decreased pregenenolone levels, which
is the first step after CHOL in all three hormonal pathways which begin with
CHOL. HCG increases pregnenolone production, and therefore restores a more
natural balance of our hormones.

Next, nearly all TRT patients who add in HCG to their regimens report an
increased sense of well-being and also libido. These are genuine quality of life
issues.

Finally, I just instinctively do not want all those LH receptors (including
those we have yet to discover and appreciate) unstimulated."

[chilln]

Now thats as clear as mud to an Oklahoma hillbilly.

The only real world situation which is close to this report's artificial method, is exactly what I was stated earlier:


When a male has continually high cortisol, and when that high cortisol is as a result of not having sufficient T levels to heal himself overnight (ie: hypogonadal), combined with a relatively high level of daily mental and / or physical stressors (hard or stressful work),
THEN:
the application of exogenous T will over time (usually days or weeks, rarely hours) causes that person's cortisol levels to return to normal (reduce).
BECAUSE:
this male's cortisol levels were only high in order to suppress the central nervous system overload from the intense signaling being triggered by his damaged cells (due to low T, ie: hypogonadism).
So as those damaged cells are gradually repaired (due to increased levels of T), then the signal intensity of the "fix me I'm broken" messages is reduced, and therefore cortisol (which is needed to suppress excess amounts of "fix me I'm broken" messages) also reduces.


This time I added the words "hypogonadal" and "hypogonadism" to help you see the similarity between my real-world example, and the words in the report which you're referencing.

[medgerton]

When a male has continually high cortisol, and when that high cortisol is as a result of not having sufficient T levels to heal himself overnight (ie: hypogonadal), combined with a relatively high level of daily mental and / or physical stressors (hard or stressful work),
THEN:
the application of exogenous T will over time (usually days or weeks, rarely hours) causes that person's cortisol levels to return to normal (reduce).
.

Exactly what happened in my case. Timeframe was weeks. Many weeks.

[crazycrew]

Took my first dose of HCG (500 ui) this morning. I preloaded 10 syringes and put in the freezer. Still losing weight, 23lbs so far. Took my first dose of Test C
(1cc) from new doctor last friday and have had morning wood every morning and during the night. Big difference from the test I had been using. Not sleeping as well but still ok.
At the gym two days ago on a squat machine got up to 490lbs for 2 reps. Haven't been keeping track of anything but will start keeping a log soon.
See a new VA Dr tommorrow and hope to get the VA to cover the trt or at least get a proper set of labs done.

[crazycrew]

Latest labs. What little there is.

total protein 6.3 ,,,, 6.5 - 8.0

AST 58 ,,,,, 0 - 40

choesteral 291

triglyceride 158 ,,,, 0- 150

HDL 21 ,,,,, 40 -150

LDL 238 ,,,, <100

CK 698 ,,,,,, 0 - 170

TT 1054 ,,,,,,, 175-781

Thats it.

This test was 7 days after my last dose of 1cc/200mg and 2 days after my dose of 500ui hcg.

Dr refused to order anymore labs when I told her about my HRT.
I could tell she was pissed or freaked one. She said I should find an Endo immidiatly before I distroy my hormonal/endo system. She said there haven't been any studies to prove this theropy was safe.
I told her I guess I would just quit taking it to which she replied "Don't do that, you could very well die."
Needless to say I am still looking for a doc that has a clue.

I am going to reduce my test to .5cc a week and the hcg to 250ui 2x a week.

I will check with my local Doc to see if he will order a full set of labs; if not I will go thru LEF or anouther supplier.

[JanSz]

Took my first dose of HCG (500 ui) this morning. I preloaded 10 syringes and put in the freezer. Still losing weight, 23lbs so far. Took my first dose of Test C
(1cc) from new doctor last friday and have had morning wood every morning and during the night. Big difference from the test I had been using. Not sleeping as well but still ok.
At the gym two days ago on a squat machine got up to 490lbs for 2 reps. Haven't been keeping track of anything but will start keeping a log soon.
See a new VA Dr tommorrow and hope to get the VA to cover the trt or at least get a proper set of labs done.

1cc of (presumably) 200mg/mL=200mg

that is a very large dose.
Then 500iu HCG, if your testis are any good you may have too much TotalT.

SHBG-40
You will need a more than usual dose of testosterone, but do it gradually, lots of small doses, not a one big load.

Make (very aproximate) assumption,
if you run your TRT that requires you to use Arimidex, assume (first) that your TRT is not optimal.
Priority #1 when running TRT,
concentrate on ways that would eliminate your dependence on Arimidex.
=================================

Take your syringes, loaded with HCG, from freezer and put them in refigirator.
I hope that you did not messed up your HCG.
=================================
01-26-2009
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31114&postcount=20
you reported:
Cholesterol-224(<200) -------

this is a setback:


choesteral 291

make sure that you take Niacin, 2x/day 500mg

one pill right before bed.

If you are already doing it, then keep on it and add Red Yeast Rice.

Take 600mg/2x/day for two months then reduce to one pill/day

Retest after about 3-4 months.
.
Take a teaspoon of lecitin with every niacin pill.
.
================================================== =====
Eliminate wheat, potatos, sugar from your diet, replace with green beans, spinach, etc.
What is your weight now.
It was 278#
.

[crazycrew]

1cc of (presumably) 200mg/mL=200mg

that is a very large dose.
Then 500iu HCG, if your testis are any good you may have too much TotalT.

SHBG-40
You will need a more than usual dose of testosterone, but do it gradually, lots of small doses, not a one big load.


=================================

Take your syringes, loaded with HCG, from freezer and put them in refigirator.
I hope that you did not messed up your HCG.
=================================


make sure that you take Niacin, 2x/day 500mg

one pill right before bed.

If you are already doing it, then keep on it and add Red Yeast Rice.

Take 600mg/2x/day for two months then reduce to one pill/day

Retest after about 3-4 months.
.
Take a teaspoon of lecitin with every niacin pill.
.
================================================== =====
Eliminate wheat, potatos, sugar from your diet, replace with green beans, spinach, etc.
.


I am going to reduce the dose to .5cc /200mg a week and the HCG to 250ui 2x aweek. Drop the adex until or unless I start to feel bad.
------------------------------------------------

She did script me a 90 day supply of simvastatin 80mg.


-----------------------------------
I have read countless entries that it is fine to freeze the mixed hcg. I loaded them with air in the syringe to allow for expantion and double freezer bagged them

-------------------------------------

I have all but cut the potatoes and sugar from my diet but I have been indulging with bread.
-----------------------------------------

My glucose was in range where it had been high as well.

---------------------------
Can I get the lecitin locally?

[JanSz]

I am going to reduce the dose to .5cc /200mg a week and the HCG to 250ui 2x aweek. Drop the adex until or unless I start to feel bad.
------------------------------------------------

She did script me a 90 day supply of simvastatin 80mg.


-----------------------------------
I have read countless entries that it is fine to freeze the mixed hcg. I loaded them with air in the syringe to allow for expantion and double freezer bagged them

-------------------------------------

I have all but cut the potatoes and sugar from my diet but I have been indulging with bread. (I feel like such a cheater)
-----------------------------------------

My glucose was in range where it had been high as well.

---------------------------
Can I get the lecitin locally?

Yes, you can get lecithin in local health store, it will cost you more.
I got mine from LEF.com

What is your weight now?
What size pants do you wear?
.
.

[crazycrew]

What is your weight now?
What size pants do you wear?
.
.

I have lost 24lbs (over the past 7 weeks) and am down to 254lbs. size a loose 40 or tight 38.

[JanSz]

I have lost 23lbs (over the past 7 weeks) and am down to 254lbs. size a loose 40 or tight 38.

You have now those tiny 31Ga syringes that you use for HCG.
Keep looking at them, think about using them for your test EOD.
The sooner you get to that point the better chances for success.
Better chances of keeping control over E2.
.
.

[crazycrew]

You have now those tiny 31Ga syringes that you use for HCG.
Keep looking at them, think about using them for your test EOD.
The sooner you get to that point the better chances for success.
Better chances of keeping control over E2.
.
.

Out of curiosity I used the 31ga today for my test dose and other than the time to load it was easy as pie. 2 doses = .5cc.
It would be such an incovienience to have to dose daily ie test/hch/test ect. But we do what me must.

[crazycrew]

3 years ago I was 212lbs and had been in that range for well over 10years. This past year was most of my gains.

[JanSz]

Out of curiosity I used the 31ga today for my test dose and other than the time to load it was easy as pie. 2 doses = .5cc.
It would be such an incovienience to have to dose daily ie test/hch/test ect. But we do what me must.

During loading syringe:
hold syringe and a vial in one hand,
always put in little more air in than the planned draw,
after needle is inserted turn vial/syringe assembly with vial on top,
pull the piston with one smooth move about 5 units beyond planned fill,
hold the assembly in one hand while doing your other chores,
time will pass without being wasted.

You may also pre-load few syringes at the time for use latter.


.

[living2die]

It is generally recognized that TRT/HRT/HCGmonotherapy will overtime, reduce PREG levels, which is why Dr. J supplements these patient groups with TD PREG. Because PREG is a precursor of the glucocorticoids, mineralocorticoids, corticosteroids, etc. wouldn't it stand to reason that this reduction in raw endo PREG might lead to reduction in said stress hormones ?


The only real world situation which is close to this report's artificial method, is exactly what I was stated earlier:


When a male has continually high cortisol, and when that high cortisol is as a result of not having sufficient T levels to heal himself overnight (ie: hypogonadal), combined with a relatively high level of daily mental and / or physical stressors (hard or stressful work),
THEN:
the application of exogenous T will over time (usually days or weeks, rarely hours) causes that person's cortisol levels to return to normal (reduce).
BECAUSE:
this male's cortisol levels were only high in order to suppress the central nervous system overload from the intense signaling being triggered by his damaged cells (due to low T, ie: hypogonadism).
So as those damaged cells are gradually repaired (due to increased levels of T), then the signal intensity of the "fix me I'm broken" messages is reduced, and therefore cortisol (which is needed to suppress excess amounts of "fix me I'm broken" messages) also reduces.


This time I added the words "hypogonadal" and "hypogonadism" to help you see the similarity between my real-world example, and the words in the report which you're referencing.

[chilln]

It is generally recognized that TRT/HRT/HCGmonotherapy will overtime, reduce PREG levels, which is why Dr. J supplements these patient groups with TD PREG.


Leave HCG monotherapy off that list.




Because PREG is a precursor of the glucocorticoids, mineralocorticoids, corticosteroids, etc. wouldn't it stand to reason that this reduction in raw endo PREG might lead to reduction in said stress hormones ?


This proposal would only be relevant in the case of a male who doesn't already have adrenal fatigue (as I've already addressed the case where a male does have adrenal fatigue)

If a male doesn't already have adrenal fatigue,
and if he's getting too much of his T (testosterone) from injected T esters, and / or from transdermal T gel/cream,
then he'll wind up initially losing DHEA, but not cortisol

But of course if the same male then allows his DHEA to continue to reduce for too long, then finally his cortisol will start to be depleted too.

###

For males without "adrenal fatigue", their cortisol will hold up while their DHEA levels become depleted as their adrenals will sacrifice DHEA production for cortisol production.

[crazycrew]

-----------------------------------------------------------

You will end up with poking your self every day anyhow.
I lasted on this mental exercise myself, for about a week and half,
then changed to (T & hcg) on alternate days.
-----------------------------------------------------------
If you will go thru the same route then equivalent EOD schedule is:

T-shot=28units=56mg
HCG-shot=250iu

0.58*200*7/2=203mg/week average

note, 28 units still fits into 3/10cc syringe
-------------------------------------------------------------

As long as you will take DHEA 50mg/week (for starters), do what makes you comfortable about pregnenolone.
I would not use it at this time, to simplify protocol.
I would rather wait and see what blood test shows.
--------------------------------------------------------------
.......

I started the EOD routine 5 days ago. It is easier to remember and to inj w/3/10cc syringes. Have felt like my old self the last few days and have gone back to work as well, (first time in months). New protocal is 5 units HCG one day and 20 units test the next. 1 graim Westhroid, 1 80MG Simvastatin daily.
I'm planning on new labs in 3 more weeks and go from there.
I can't thank you guys enough.

[JanSz]

I started the EOD routine 5 days ago. It is easier to remember and to inj w/3/10cc syringes. Have felt like my old self the last few days and have gone back to work as well, (first time in months). New protocal is 5 units HCG one day and 20 units test the next. 1 graim Westhroid, 1 80MG Simvastatin daily.
I'm planning on new labs in 3 more weeks and go from there.
I can't thank you guys enough.

It looks like what you are doing, works, congratualtions.
================================================== ===
What is 5 units of HCG?

Assuming that you are planning to have 250iu size of shot,
assuming that you are correct in what you are doing,
you have made wery dense HCG solution.

I suggest that you make it thinner next time.
Something that would fit confortably in your small 30 units capacity syringe.
Solution that woud make 250iu shot at least 10 units or more.

I prefer to make 2000iu/cc solutions

to get there when you have xx HCG vial or ampoule use yy amount of diluetant

10000iu ---> 5cc
5000iu-----> 2.5cc
2000iu-----> 1cc
1500iu-----> 0.75cc

then HCG shot size is

500iu--->25units
400iu--->20units
250iu---->12.5units

.
.
When blood testing, make sure to get a good readings on thyroid.
If your body temperature gets at or tiny bit over 36.6c
it will be much easier to loose that fat.
One of those is RT3, if you in upper half of range, ask doc for T3.
.
.

[crazycrew]

I have been taking 5 inl syringe units = 125ui hcg. I should probably up that dosage to 10 units every other day. (in fact I will start that tommorrow) The boys have started to ache slightly as they did when they were shutting down.
---------------------------
My HCG vial is 11000 units and was instructed to mix 4.4 mi B water.
20 ins syringe units= 500iu

---------------------
.2 cc test every other day. I am seriouly considering dropping the test dosage by .05 a week untill off of it alltogether. Then use an HCG theropy..
--------------------------------------
Body temp has been higher for weeks now and am continuing to lose weight. Now at 240lbs down from 278.

[rick055]

.2 cc test every other day. I am seriouly considering dropping the test dosage by .05 a week untill off of it alltogether. Then use an HCG theropy..
--------------------------------------
Body temp has been "normal" for weeks now and am continuing to lose weight. Now at 240lbs down from 278.

If you are feeling well, why would you want to change it? Also, just my 2 cents, but doesn't it make sense to give yourself time to stabilize on a routine before making changes? Maybe in an effort to make sure you're not going through a transient window of "feel good"? I'm not trying to be a downer, just asking questions. I'm happy when any of us feel well.

What are you attributing the weight loss to? Diet/exercise? More frequent hCG?

Are you off arimidex? Are you taking pregnenolone?

[JanSz]

I have been taking 5 inl syringe units = 125ui hcg. I should probably up that dosage to 10 units every other day. (in fact I will start that tommorrow) The boys have started to ache slightly as they did when they were shutting down.
---------------------------
My HCG vial is 11000 units and was instructed to mix 4.4 mi B water.
20 ins syringe units= 500iu

---------------------
.2 cc test every other day. I am seriouly considering dropping the test dosage by .05 a week untill off of it alltogether. Then use an HCG theropy..
--------------------------------------
Body temp has been "normal" for weeks now and am continuing to lose weight. Now at 240lbs down from 278.

Double check, it is probably 10000iu

if you mixed it with 4.4ml that becomes 10000/4.4=2273iu/cc=22.7iu/unit

so 10 units will be worth of 227iu/shot

I suggest that you make honest effort to get smaller portions of HCG.

Specially if you think of trying HCG monotheraphy.
HCG monotheraphy is a hard stuff, at a minimum it requires quality of HCG.

10000iu 227iu/shot that is 44 shots, that is 88 days

Well, on monotheraphy you will be talking, say 500iu/shot/EOD

10000/500=20, that is still 40 days

You will be doubting quality of your HCG in the midway of your vial or even sooner.

I suggest that you continue what you do, at least until you do next blood test and beyond, untill after you see results and have a time to study them.

I am assuming that you are now doing

40mg/test/EOD
454iu/HCG/EOD
no Arimidex

Post (in above format) what you are actually doing.
Name your HCG, what is it?
---------
Draw blood on the day of the T-shot before shot.
.
..

[crazycrew]

If you are feeling well, why would you want to change it? Also, just my 2 cents, but doesn't it make sense to give yourself time to stabilize on a routine before making changes? Maybe in an effort to make sure you're not going through a transient window of "feel good"? I'm not trying to be a downer, just asking questions. I'm happy when any of us feel well.

What are you attributing the weight loss to? Diet/exercise? More frequent hCG?

Are you off arimidex? Are you taking pregnenolone?

The changes are hypothetical at the moment. It would depend on my next set of labs. Before starting all this my serum test level was in the low to mid range. If it is at all possible I would like to get back to natural.
------------------
I have been thru a few of those "feel good" windows over the past year and even though I have been waiting for the other shoe to fall for the past 2 months; I have gotten better and better.
----------------------
The weight loss is a combination of getting my body temp back to normal (was low) via Westhroid, and diet, 1500 calories a day, and the HCG. Which contributes most I couldn't say because I started them all at the same time. I have been much more active but not on an exercise regiment yet. I also had alot of water retention which I don't notice now.
----------------------------------

I discontinued the arimidex (.5mg) a couple of weeks ago when I went to the HCG protocal. I did order some pregnenolone cream but didn't use it because I started the HCG.

[crazycrew]

I am assuming that you are now doing

40mg/test/EOD
454iu/HCG/EOD
no Arimidex


..
The Hcg from ANEWrx has posted on the box that it is 11000 units. To mix with 4.4 B water and inject 20 insulin syringe units SQ on days 5 and 6 after test dose for a total weekly dose of 1000ui
---------------------------
I have been dosing,
.2cc test c 200mg EOD.
I was taking 5 units from an insulin syringe EOD but thinking of upping it to
10 units EOD.
10 units = 250ui
1 graim Westhroid ( thinking of changing to t3 soon)


And no Arimidex

[JanSz]

The Hcg from ANEWrx has posted on the box that it is 11000 units. To mix with 4.4 B water and inject 20 insulin syringe units SQ on days 5 and 6 after test dose for a total weekly dose of 1000ui
---------------------------
I have been dosing,
.2cc test c 200mg EOD.
I was taking 5 units from an insulin syringe EOD but thinking of upping it to
10 units EOD.
10 units = 250ui
1 graim Westhroid ( thinking of changing to t3 soon)


And no Arimidex

500iu or 250iu EOD is between you and your doctor.
Most important part is of being consistent for at least 6 weeks before blood draw.

The other important item is your high hematocrit.
You do not want to have a real high spikes in TT.

Right now I am refering to this post #20 when looking at your status:
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31114&postcount=20

eventually I will have to make update.
.
------------------------
=========================================
Another tid bit, got another "undercover" happy user of EOD schedule and insuline syringe 31Ga for testosterone.
By happy I mean, he have been on that schedule consistently for 2 months, did blood test and have satisfactory (well encouraging) results.

Strenght of EOD schedule lies mainly in lower spreads and ability to use blood tests directly for dose adjusting.
=========================================
.

[crazycrew]

------------------------
=========================================
Another tid bit, got another "undercover" happy user of EOD schedule and insuline syringe 31Ga for testosterone.
By happy I mean, he have been on that schedule consistently for 2 months, did blood test and have satisfactory (well encouraging) results.

Strenght of EOD schedule lies mainly in lower spreads and ability to use blood tests directly for dose adjusting.
=========================================
.

Making a believer out of me so far. No ups or downs just the same, having a good day every day feeling.

[JanSz]

Making a believer out of me so far. No ups or downs just the same, having a good day every day feeling.

Good to hear that.

After you have your testicles woken up and in good order,
please report on how they feel to you while you are on EOD schedule.

There are time delays in T and HCG actions.
I see my testicles firmnes fluctuating with 2/day cycle.
Few days ago I changed my schedule.
I do both T & HCG shots on one day, that is Day#1
next is day without shots, that is Day#2

and so on.

Do not feel any different anywhere else, I think testis are firmer longer, too early to say definitely.

=================

If you observe Easter

Happy Easter

if not,
enjoy anyhow, (hope you like eggs).

.
.

[crazycrew]

The Hcg from ANEWrx has posted on the box that it is 11000 units. To mix with 4.4 B water and inject 20 insulin syringe units SQ on days 5 and 6 after test dose for a total weekly dose of 1000ui
---------------------------
Damn my math sure sucks. I had it stuck in my head that 20 units = 1000ui. Instead its 40 units= 1000

40 = 1000
20 = 500
10 = 250

So if I dose 10ui EOD = 875 per week.

[JanSz]

Damn my math sure sucks. I had it stuck in my head that 20 units = 1000ui. Instead its 40 units= 1000

40 = 1000
20 = 500
10 = 250

So if I dose 10ui EOD = 875 per week.

We are getting closer:

Density of your HCG solution is:
11000iu/4.4mL=2500iu/mL= 2500iu/100units

10units=250iu

If you inject that every other day:

250*7/2=875iu per week

If that is what you want, end of story.

But important is to go thru correct math, in case you want or are forced to change something in your procedure.

.................

[Dr. John Crisler]

Males who have testicular cancer have traceable amounts of HCG in there blood stream due to the hcg-secreting cancerous cell growth production. its kinda of the chicken or the egg existential question. as far as i know, the hcg is present in the blood because of the cancer and it doesnt work the other way around. as hcg is a LH analogue, it would be like saying LH causes cancer, or female pregnancy causes cancer (as large amounts of hcg are produced by the placenta in females during pregnancy)Nailed it.

When his medical school trained him, they did not teach him to think.

Administering HCG has NEVER been linked to an increased risk of cancer.

[crazycrew]

[QUOTE=pcgizzmo]So you are feeling pretty good EOD? Hows the Johnson doing? Are you getting wood? If so, thats great to hear. I am glad it seems to be working out.

How much are you taking EOD?


Paul
Johnson is great, been having sex in the middle of the night with some beautiful young ladys. At least till I wake up.

Heres my dosing schedule:

.2cc test c 200mg EOD.= 20 units on an insulin syringe. which totals .7cc a week average.
10 units HCG = 250ui which totals 875ui a week.
1 graim Westhroid which raises my body temp (which has been low) and ups my motabolism.
5mg Melatonin before bed helps sleep.

I'm also starting with a lower dose so that I can increase it slowly if it needs be. I found out the hard way its easier than doing too much and screwing everything else up and having to start over.

We each have to find our own "sweet spot" which takes trial and error. I take a lower dosage of test because I tend to convert to E2 easily. However since doing the everyday injections I haven't been getting any mood swings at all.
It is really easy and totaly painless using the insulin syringes for both the test and hcg. I inj the test IM by pushing the housing about a quarter inch down before injecting.

[living2die]

Thanks Dr. J.

I was able to provide that insight when I reflected back on my University days, and an article that had appeared in the semi-annual school magazine. A student, whose father was some type of MD, mentioned that he had been experiencing a flurry of bizarre symptoms, which his father luckily attributed to the symptomatology paralleling that of a male suffering from testicular cancer. The MD schooled father of the college age kid immediately went to the drugstore, picked up a simple home pregnancy kit (the urine-hcg test), took a sample of urine from his son, and came to the correct conclusion that his son had testicular cancer after the pregnancy test yielded a positive result.

The dad caught it in time, and his son has had full recovery.


Nailed it.

When his medical school trained him, they did not teach him to think.

Administering HCG has NEVER been linked to an increased risk of cancer.

[brandO]

Males who have testicular cancer have traceable amounts of HCG in there blood stream due to the hcg-secreting cancerous cell growth production. its kinda of the chicken or the egg existential question. as far as i know, the hcg is present in the blood because of the cancer and it doesnt work the other way around. as hcg is a LH analogue, it would be like saying LH causes cancer, or female pregnancy causes cancer (as large amounts of hcg are produced by the placenta in females during pregnancy)

unfortunately i dont think its this simple.



Administering HCG has NEVER been linked to an increased risk of cancer.

im not sure about, im not saying it it does cause cancer, whenever you mess with mother nature your bound to shoot yourself in the foot one day.

[living2die]

Dr. J's recipe for success calls for around +/- 500IU of HCG PW in conjunction with exo T. A pregnant female will secrete MILLIONS of IU's of HCG per day with child. Shouldn't woman be keeling over left and right from cancer of the ovaries?


unfortunately i dont think its this simple.




im not sure about, im not saying it it does cause cancer, whenever you mess with mother nature your bound to shoot yourself in the foot one day.

[crazycrew]

im not saying it it does cause cancer, whenever you mess with mother nature your bound to shoot yourself in the foot one day.


Sounds like one is assumption while the other is based on facts.

[brandO]

were not pregnant females though... i dont know how giving HCG will effect the male long term and down the road with his children.... to say it doesnt cause cancer, i dont buy it. not yet... more studies are needed to confirm this. only time will tell.

but as of right now i suppose its the best treatment we have available to treat our problems


based on what FACTS?

facts change everywhere based on new information we discover.

[crazycrew]

I was refering the Dr J saying "Administering HCG has NEVER been linked to an increased risk of cancer". (so far)



facts change everywhere based on new information we discover.


I can go along with that. I already posted how cigarettes were recomended by doctors for years for stress relief and energy boost.

[brandO]

As of right now, it would appear HRT is safe and effective for men.... but i wouldnt be surprised if they find out one day its linked to cancers..

i hope it does not cause cancer.

[rick055]

As of right now, it would appear HRT is safe and effective for men.... but i wouldnt be surprised if they find out one day its linked to cancers..


I have to disagree.

Though there's no guarantees in life, testosterone has been used for years without incident.

hCG looks like LH/FSH to your body.

What we DO know is there are a ton of studies linking LOW testosterone to increased morbidity.

[brandO]

Yes but people need armidex to control e2, this could cause problems... high dht, etc.

[rick055]

Yes but people need armidex to control e2, this could cause problems... high dht, etc.

Where has arimidex been shown to increase DHT?

There are many studies now indicating arimidex is beneficial in men. It has long been recognized that too much E2 is harmful for a myriad of reasons.

Remember also, the doses we are taking with TRT are minimal - something to the tune of 3.75 mg per MONTH.

I appreciate your opinion, but is there a study which indicated that relationship to DHT?

[brandO]

i was using the example that testosterone leads to higher e2, DHT possibly other hormones or cause other imbalances.

not saying armidex leads to higher DHT.... we dont know what else this unbalances. it could cause other imbalance that we dont even know about...

the body is to complex, to say HCG wont cause cancer and other problems is early to tell.

[rick055]

i was using the example that testosterone leads to higher e2, DHT possibly other hormones or cause other imbalances.

not saying armidex leads to higher DHT.... we dont know what else this unbalances. it could cause other imbalance that we dont even know about...

the body is to complex, to say HCG wont cause cancer and other problems is early to tell.

To be certain, any medication we take can cause problems. People die from taking acetaminophen (though I think it's 'cause they choked to death swallowing the pill, lol).

Plus, hCG has been used in the treatment in men with secondary hypogonadism for years, and at doses much larger then we take.

[pcgizzmo]

I have to disagree.

Though there's no guarantees in life, testosterone has been used for years without incident.

hCG looks like LH/FSH to your body.

What we DO know is there are a ton of studies linking LOW testosterone to increased morbidity.

Not trying to be a fly in the ointment but we know that excess estrogen can cause breast cancer in women.

So, given that. How do we know that excess HCG does not do the same over time?

I'm not going to stop taking HCG but I don't think anyone can point to long term studies of elevated HCG in humans to prove one way of the other. When I say long term I mean 5-10 years.

Just because women normally have HCG present in their bodies doesn't mean that long term elevated levels might cause a problem due to excess stimulation.

When men take HCG we are normally taking excess amounts to stimulate the testicles.

Paul

[rick055]

When men take HCG we are normally taking excess amounts to stimulate the testicles.

Paul

No fly in the ointment, the purpose of boards like this is to share ideas.

I disagree with you.

hCG, especially how we take it (~500 iu/week) is not excessive.

[brandO]

When I say long term I mean 5-10 years

when i say long term i mean 25-50 years, and i want to see the effects it has on your children and there children, and so forth.

[living2die]

Once in awhile I will fleetingly feel ambivalent about the long term implications of HRT. In order to equalize the potential harmful effects, I try and engage in super-healthy behaviors that would make up for any potential damage I am doing to myself while on HRT. I run 6 miles a day in 40minutes on the treadmill (this is 6:30-6:45 minutes per mile pace), manage my weight (I stay below 150lbs and I am 5' 11.5" - 99% of the time I am the leanest person in the room), and eat healthy.

This is the price I am willing to pay for fame.


No fly in the ointment, the purpose of boards like this is to share ideas.

I disagree with you.

hCG, especially how we take it (~500 iu/week) is not excessive.

[living2die]

We are no worse off than the rest of our overly medicated society. Who isn't on some random anti-anxiety, anti-depressant, anti-inflammatory, etc. x 1000 drug? I like to think of my life enhancement as a much better alternative to the foolish mode of going about things.

I do feel you about the propensity of HRT drugs to potentially cause defects in our offspring. My long term look on this pressing issue is to drop all drugs, except the HCG (hopefully r-LH is more affordable in the future and I can stay on this), go through a 3 month complete cleansing process, take a sperm sample, freeze it, and return to my HRT regiment. Than when it is time to get the bird prego, I will simply use my immaculately preserved sperm sample to get the job done, using invitro fertilization. Gott mit uns.



when i say long term i mean 25-50 years, and i want to see the effects it has on your children and there children, and so forth.

[chilln]

Not trying to be a fly in the ointment but we know that excess estrogen can cause breast cancer in women.

So, given that. How do we know that excess HCG does not do the same over time?

I'm not going to stop taking HCG but I don't think anyone can point to long term studies of elevated HCG in humans to prove one way of the other. When I say long term I mean 5-10 years.

Just because women normally have HCG present in their bodies doesn't mean that long term elevated levels might cause a problem due to excess stimulation.

When men take HCG we are normally taking excess amounts to stimulate the testicles.

Paul

If you're worried about HCG, then switch to recombinant LH and recombinant FSH.

I doubt you're worried about the health aspects of recombinant LH and recombinant FSH.

I know you'll be worried about the cost implications of recombinant LH and recombinant FSH. Eventually those will drop as the recombinant technology becomes more wide-spread.

[JanSz]

Good morning JanSz
Would you look at the labs I am ordering and see if you might recommend any more? I will see if they will add them. Thanks Wayne

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3194

Good morning Wayne;



Post #74
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2650&page=8
have few blood test from 4 weeks ago.
"choesteral 291"
(niacin + red yeast rice+ lecithin)
--------------
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31114&postcount=20
Looking at summary of your blood tests and keeping cost of tests in mind, for your next blood test I suggest following:

Hematocrit
TotalTestosterone
SHBG
Albumin(not really required)
E2-sensitive
DHT
------------
DHEAs
pregnenolone
progesterone
Cortisol AM/PM
------------
T3, Total
T4, Total
T3, Free
T4,Free
T3, Reverse
Ultrasensitive TSH
Thyroid Peroxidase and Thyroglobulin Antibodies
----------------------------

You should also do

Iodine, iodide Panel
Selenium
Copper
Zinc

But you will get more bang for a $$$ by doing hair analysis.
If you go for that, make sure that you start using now, only BabyJohnsonShampoo to wash your hair.
-----------------------
On post :
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31114&postcount=20

I listed your supplements, eat those, forget testing
Forget cholesterol, sugar, insuline testing until you fit into 34 size pants.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are on EOD (T + HCG) schedule.
So you know
I changed my EOD schedule to
(T + HCG) on same day, following by free day.
My testicles respond better to this.
Keep in mind that HCG half life is 33 hours.
Theorethically it could be better to go for ED shots of HCG, but I do not do that.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doing complete thyroid panel and the few adrenals test is very important to you.

If you have to cut corners,

skip TT, SHBG, Albumin, DHT.

Do only E2-sensitive

You started with SHBG=40

Your are on EOD schedule
T-shot=20units=40mg
HCG-shot=250iu
no Arimidex

you are going to be ok for a while, just test E2
Blood drawn on the day of (T&HCG) shots before shots.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.

Ok keep in mind posts
#20, page #2
#23, page #3
#28, page #3
#30, page #3
#32, page #4
#74, page #8
on this thread

[Dolomike]

Males who have testicular cancer have traceable amounts of HCG in there blood stream due to the hcg-secreting cancerous cell growth production. its kinda of the chicken or the egg existential question. as far as i know, the hcg is present in the blood because of the cancer and it doesnt work the other way around. as hcg is a LH analogue, it would be like saying LH causes cancer, or female pregnancy causes cancer (as large amounts of hcg are produced by the placenta in females during pregnancy)



Nailed it.

When his medical school trained him, they did not teach him to think.

Administering HCG has NEVER been linked to an increased risk of cancer.

Can anyone remark on how exo hCG applies to testicular cancer patients in remission? I had 1 testicle removed in September and have been on weekly 100mg T-cyp shots for the past 10 weeks with little benefit and all the lovely side effects (abdomen fat, excess body hair, dandruff, etc.) - but that's for another thread.

I would be interested in hCG shots to add into my protocol, but does this give false hCG serum blood markers for cancer screens?

[JanSz]

Can anyone remark on how exo hCG applies to testicular cancer patients in remission? I had 1 testicle removed in September and have been on weekly 100mg T-cyp shots for the past 10 weeks with little benefit and all the lovely side effects (abdomen fat, excess body hair, dandruff, etc.) - but that's for another thread.

I would be interested in hCG shots to add into my protocol, but does this give false hCG serum blood markers for cancer screens?

You know what is going to happen if you take 100mg/week and no HCG.

I am not able to answer your cancer question,
but you may/will need more testosterone when without HCG.

I would rather if you use HCG.

Well, just go by test results.
Except that I am leary about testosterone and E2 measurements while on weekly injection schedule.
Huge daily level variations, out of synch T & E2, impossible to measure with one blood draw.
So you have to resolve that part also.
Use posted charts of 00slotov's experience when you strt thinking about.

/

[chilln]

Can anyone remark on how exo hCG applies to testicular cancer patients in remission? I had 1 testicle removed in September and have been on weekly 100mg T-cyp shots for the past 10 weeks with little benefit and all the lovely side effects (abdomen fat, excess body hair, dandruff, etc.) - but that's for another thread.


I'll wager your body is dumping the excess T (testosterone) into E2 (estradiol), and you're not managing your E2 levels - eg: via arimidex.



I would be interested in hCG shots to add into my protocol, but does this give false hCG serum blood markers for cancer screens?

First discuss with your medical professional adviser to measure your E2, preferably via either an ultra sensitive essay, or a sensitive essay, but not via a female E2 essay (only accurate at high levels of E2).

Managing your E2 (lowering it most likely) will actually minimize your likelihood of having any cancer build up in your body - as most tumors are triggered by DNA damage but then most can be driven to grow by relatively high levels of E2. Hence optimizing E2 (to be relatively low in males) will slow the growth of any tumors you may already have, or will have.

[rick055]

chilln, a little OT, but have you heard that as a man ages HCG becomes less effective? Any truth to that?

It strikes me as counterintuitive, since it's - kind of - LH.

[GirlyMan]

chilln, a little OT, but have you heard that as a man ages HCG becomes less effective? Any truth to that?

It strikes me as counterintuitive, since it's - kind of - LH.

Strikes me as intuitive. LH is only a signal to the boys to up production. As the fellas get older and closer to retirement they understandably don't respond to signals with the same enthusiasm as they did when they were young, dumb, and full of cum.

[chilln]

chilln, a little OT, but have you heard that as a man ages HCG becomes less effective? Any truth to that?

It strikes me as counterintuitive, since it's - kind of - LH.

The testicles certainly do become less responsive to both LH and HCG. Ie: less output for the same amount of LH or HCG.

They also take longer after an LH spike to get underway too.

But we don't observe these trends when we take HCG, because subQ HCG doesn't release in spikes, it releases continuously, and we always dose our HCG based on labs and symptoms.

Also, cortisol wrecks our body's response to the testosterone levels present, so people rarely notice small gradual changes in our testicles responsiveness to HCG.

I guess over the course of several decades of continuous usage of hormone boost therapy using HCG and several other hormones, we may notice the changes, but then we'll be adding a GH booster, as well as other supplementary hormones to the mix as we age, so even then I doubt we'll be able to scientifically show this correlation on ourselves.

[Dolomike]

Deleted.

[chilln]

Can anyone remark on how exo hCG applies to testicular cancer patients in remission? I had 1 testicle removed in September and have been on weekly 100mg T-cyp shots for the past 10 weeks with little benefit and all the lovely side effects (abdomen fat, excess body hair, dandruff, etc.) - but that's for another thread.

I would be interested in hCG shots to add into my protocol, but does this give false hCG serum blood markers for cancer screens?



Once you have experienced cancer, you first of all need to learn how to get your E2 under control, while or before you learn how to get your T under control.

Males who haven't experienced cancer can mess around with their T levels, and get less-than-optimal therapy, with poor monitoring, which lets their E2 wander too high, and they are unlikely to get cancer provided they reign in their E2 in "reasonable" time.

But you can't afford to let your E2 wander high, at least not in the near future, because too many of your cancer genes were switched on previously, and E2 triggers several cancer genes to be switched on in mutant cells. We don't yet know for sure if E2 specifically switches on the group of genes which trigger testicular cancer, sorry.

But we do know that E2 switches on several cancer genes in the mutant cells of a majority of cancers, so getting E2 under management ASAP is going to be critical.

###

With one testicle, I believe that HCG would be less optimal than pure LH, ie: I don't recommend HCG, but I do recommend recombinant LH - in the form of Lutropin Alfa / Luveris, produced by Serono (who also make Ovidrel).

HCG is not your optimal testicular testosterone booster for the following reason:

1) The origin of HCG in the vast majority of testicular cancers is not as a result of mutant leydig cells which produce testosterone.
2) The origin of HCG in the vast majority of testicular cancers is as a result of mutant sertoli cells which produce mutant sperm which become partially embryonic. The partially embryonic mutant sperm cells produce HCG in the same way that an embryo produces HCG.
3) The HCG then drives the manufacture of more sertoli cells, including mutant sertoli cells.
4) However LH only drives leydig cells, hence LH will not accelerate the vast majority of testicular cancers.

Recombinant LH is already available, but it's still an expensive IVF treatment, and therefore I doubt you're going to rush out and buy it. It's price is coming down. Perhaps wait until it's affordable, and then work with your future medical professional adviser to once again kick start your remaining atrophied testicle.

In the meantime you'll need to boost your pregnenolone and DHEA to backfill as many of your missing hormones as possible, and use urinary hormone profiling at least once a year to confirm you are indeed backfilling those hormones as expected.

[Dolomike]

I did have the ultra-sensitive Estradiol assay on my last round and came up with a 25 (Range: <29). So it appears to be in check today. I realize it's a biggie and will continue to monitor it closely.

Back to HCG. Once injected, does it not immediately convert into it's LH analog, or will some linger, leading to false positives on cancer screens? Thanks for the info on Recombinant LH.

I spent a lot of time on the net looking for exogeneous HCG use and testicular cancer with little luck. Is there a good source you can recommend for me to dig around?

[chilln]

Back to HCG. Once injected, does it not immediately convert into it's LH analog, or will some linger, leading to false positives on cancer screens?


HCG stays as HCG the whole time its doing its work to boost your testicular testosterone production. Eventually the HCG is metabolized in the liver into metabolites-of-HCG, which are then filtered out by the kidneys and passed to the bladder in urine.

HCG has a half which triggers LH receptors (and that half physically resembles a part of the LH molecule in structure)

HCG has a half which triggers FSH receptors (and that half physically resembles a part of the FSH molecule in structure)

Therefore supplementing with HCG will trigger all tests which detect HCG.

That's another reason why recombinant LH is the testicular T booster of choice, in your case.



I spent a lot of time on the net looking for exogeneous HCG use and testicular cancer with little luck. Is there a good source you can recommend for me to dig around?


No. The free knowledge re testicular cancer is completely fragmented, and you have to find those fragments located over widely dispersed sources, and then assemble together in your mind into a coherent picture.

You will also have to insert some missing knowledge fragments using general biology principles (including knowledge of cancer principles).

[JanSz]

To keep info about you in one place, I transfered some content from "heart pulse rate" thread (below).


You are using

Phentermine--an appetite suppressant

One of the guys who uses my doc is on MIC injections to help him with a weight loss.

MIC-Methionine, Inositol, Choline

Similar to this:
http://www.drlocicerohealthyliving.com/2008/03/06/mic-injections-supplement-your-health/

=================================================
===============================
post #9
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=52244&postcount=9

Body temperature is back to normal. Was 95.5 to 96.5. Now 96.8 to 98.2.

Should have latest labs any day and will post..

This is much better but still too much variations.

36.80C= 98.24F
36.25C= 97.25F

36.00C= 96.80F
35.25C= 95.50F

You do not want to be lower than 97.25F

I have not got control on my temperatures until I dropped half of Armour and replaced it with T3.

If you use too much Armour you are taking too much T4 and missing on T3.

It is really simple, watch numbers adjust per numbers.

Good feelings will miracously appear when the numbers are right.
===============================================
Unless I am missing, I do not see any thyroid testing, other than
TSH-2.6(0.3-5.1)
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31114&postcount=20

Why are you using Westroid (1 grain)?

----------
=============================================
==========================
post #11
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=52251&postcount=11

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=34929&postcount=40

Body temp has dropped since then. I will get some T3 soon and will drop the westroid. After starting this thread I realized (duh) that the Phentermine is most probably the reason for the elevated pulse.

That post still does not contain your thyroid tests.
You just posted your protocol.

I did not said that Westroid is bad for you.
I said that you have no basis in documentation for taking it.
If I had to guess, you probably would do incrementally better if you exchanged 1grainWestroid for (25mcgT3) or just added the T3 portion to 1grain that you are already taking.

I suggest that you do not do any changes, keep your procedure steady.
You must have at least 6 weeks of steady shedule to get meaningfull blood test. Any changes must be documented or you will waste time and money on bad tests.
------------
03-10-2009 you complained of lack of sex drive.
How are you now in this department?

With 100mg/2x-week you should have enough testosterone
but with your
SHBG-40
getting correct E2 will be tricky

I am guessing that you should be E2(30-40)
use Cialis (daily ~5mg), and observe nightly wood, best indicator
Use of Cialis have nothing to do with your opportunity for sex,
it clarifies your status while you are sleeping.

I thought that you changed to EOD schedule for both (T & HCG),
what are you actually doing?

How is your sleep

Phentermine--an appetite suppressant

----

==================================
==================================
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=52253&postcount=13
post #13


This is the dosing schedule I have been on since mid April:
.2cc test c 200mg EOD.= 20 units on an insulin syringe. which totals .7cc a week average.
10 units HCG = 250ui which totals 875ui a week.
1 graim Westhroid which raises my body temp (which has been low) and ups my motabolism.
5mg Melatonin before bed helps sleep.

Everything has been great. only reciently noticed a loss of energy in the afternoons and a fall in body temp. Not sleeping as soundly but still good. No ED issues.

I should get my new lab results early next week and will post them here.

140mg/week may not be enough if you still have SHBG=40
hopefully your testis will make up the difference.
---------------------

loss of energy in the afternoons and a fall in body temp

-------------------------------------

body temp, you will need tweaking of TT3 & RT3, get ready for T3

consider doing at Quest:
8AM/4PM/10PM---Cortisol, Free and Total, LC/MS/MS (37077X)
-------

I recently changed from Cortef/HC (10+10+5+5)
to Medrol 6mg(4mg/wakeup + 2mg/6hr latter)

I am impressed with Medrol.
Actually I already am mostly weaned out of my afternoon 2mg.
Difference as between smooth sailing and rough ride.
---------

================
================================================== ====================

[crazycrew]

Still haven't recieved labs because apparantley it was never sent to my Dr. But he now has them and will be mailing me a copy. Here is his new dosing recomendations.

After evaluation of new labwork----here is the dr. protocol you need to follow and stay consistent with:

Testosterone Cypionate 200mg/ml: Take 1ml. per week. (same day of every week) *day 1 of therapy.

Anastrozole 1mg caps: Take 1 cap every other day. (we need to increase mg and increase being estrogen came back at 90!!!)*want to keep around 22.

HCG 11,000 units: MIX - 4.4 ml of bact. water into hcg. its mixed! keep refrigerated at all times there-after.
DOSE - load insulin syringe to #20 and do on days 5 & 6 following testosterone inj.

Stanozolol 50mg troche: Take 5 troche per week. (place under tongue --will dissolve into blood-stream).

###########################

Said TT around 1700.

I told him I had reduced my T intake to .7cc a week yet he still scripted 1cc a week even with such a high number. He attributed the high number to having dosed too soon before labs. I didn't tell him I was on EOD dosing.
When speaking to his assistant I asked "considering my high TT on .7cc dose; did he think I might be ok on an HCG monotheropy?". His responce was that HCG had no effect on test production.
##########################################

Anastrozole 1mg caps; Is there a way to split this dose?

I was very surprised my E2 was so high (yes I know,,, wrong test) since I haven't had the usual symptoms.

####################################


Extra cost,,, Ouch. Insurance is not covering anything. So I guess I'll have to drop my BCBS 320.00 a month to afford the 300.00 a month meds.

Anastrozole 1mg caps $5.00 X 40 1cap/eod PO $200.00
7 Stanozolol 50mg troche $6.00 X 50 5troche/wk under tongue $300.00

##############################################

Stanozolol is the chemical name of active ingredient in Winstrol. Winstrol is a registered trademark of Sanofi-Synthelabo Inc. in the United States and/or other countries. Sanofi has licensed rights of Wnstrol to Ovation Pharmaceuticals.

by Bill Roberts - Winstrol is a potent anabolic, but also binds to the progesterone receptor and to LAGS in the liver. In muscle tissue, it has been found to stimulate immediate-early gene expression by a means independent of the AR. Stanozolol can stimulate the production of prostaglandin E2 and the matrix metalloproteases collegenase and stromelysin in skin fibroblasts. It has been found to inhibit growth factor stimulated DNA synthesis and fibroblasts. The drug has substantial fibrinolytic properties, and has been effective in the treatment of urticaria, Raynaud's phenomenon, cryptofibrinogenemia, and lipodermatosclerosis. It has also effected cures of osteonecrosis in cases resistant to all other therapy. Stanozolol has been used successfully in treatment of AIDS wasting syndrome.

This drug is also useful in treatment of hereditary angioedema. It is somewhat hepatotoxic, but less so than many other oral anabolic steroids. It influences some immunological processes. Stanozolol has been found to increase lymphocyte count and CD8+ cell numbers, but to decrease CD4+ and CD3+ in postmenopausal women using it for osteoporosis. This effect would plausibly be useful for treatment of autoimmune disorders.

Stanozolol also lowers lipoprotein (a).

[JanSz]

Still haven't recieved labs because apparantley it was never sent to my Dr. But he now has them and will be mailing me a copy. Here is his new dosing recomendations.

After evaluation of new labwork----here is the dr. protocol you need to follow and stay consistent with:

Testosterone Cypionate 200mg/ml: Take 1ml. per week. (same day of every week) *day 1 of therapy.

Anastrozole 1mg caps: Take 1 cap every other day. (we need to increase mg and increase being estrogen came back at 90!!!)*want to keep around 22.

HCG 11,000 units: MIX - 4.4 ml of bact. water into hcg. its mixed! keep refrigerated at all times there-after.
DOSE - load insulin syringe to #20 and do on days 5 & 6 following testosterone inj.

Stanozolol 50mg troche: Take 5 troche per week. (place under tongue --will dissolve into blood-stream).

###########################

Said TT around 1200.

I told him I had reduced my T intake to .7cc a week yet he still scripted 1cc a week even with such a high number. He attributed the high number to having dosed too soon before labs. I didn't tell him I was on EOD dosing.
When speaking to his assistant I asked "considering my high TT on .7cc dose; did he think I might be ok on an HCG monotheropy?". His responce was that HCG had no effect on test production. Gez
##########################################

Anastrozole 1mg caps; Is there a way to split this dose?

I was very surprised my E2 was so high (yes I know,,, wrong test) since I haven't had the usual symptoms.

####################################


Extra cost,,, Ouch. Insurance is not covering anything. So I guess I'll have to drop my BCBS 320.00 a month to afford the 300.00 a month meds.

Anastrozole 1mg caps $5.00 X 40 1cap/eod PO $200.00
7 Stanozolol 50mg troche $6.00 X 50 5troche/wk under tongue $300.00

##############################################

Stanozolol is the chemical name of active ingredient in Winstrol. Winstrol is a registered trademark of Sanofi-Synthelabo Inc. in the United States and/or other countries. Sanofi has licensed rights of Wnstrol to Ovation Pharmaceuticals.

by Bill Roberts - Winstrol is a potent anabolic, but also binds to the progesterone receptor and to LAGS in the liver. In muscle tissue, it has been found to stimulate immediate-early gene expression by a means independent of the AR. Stanozolol can stimulate the production of prostaglandin E2 and the matrix metalloproteases collegenase and stromelysin in skin fibroblasts. It has been found to inhibit growth factor stimulated DNA synthesis and fibroblasts. The drug has substantial fibrinolytic properties, and has been effective in the treatment of urticaria, Raynaud's phenomenon, cryptofibrinogenemia, and lipodermatosclerosis. It has also effected cures of osteonecrosis in cases resistant to all other therapy. Stanozolol has been used successfully in treatment of AIDS wasting syndrome.

This drug is also useful in treatment of hereditary angioedema. It is somewhat hepatotoxic, but less so than many other oral anabolic steroids. It influences some immunological processes. Stanozolol has been found to increase lymphocyte count and CD8+ cell numbers, but to decrease CD4+ and CD3+ in postmenopausal women using it for osteoporosis. This effect would plausibly be useful for treatment of autoimmune disorders.

Stanozolol also lowers lipoprotein (a).

Stanozolol
Stanozolol has been used on both animal and human patients for a number of conditions. In humans, it has been demonstrated to be successful in treating anaemia and hereditary angioedema. Veterinarians may prescribe the drug to improve muscle growth, red blood cell production, increase bone density and stimulate the appetite of debilitated or weakened animals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Be careful with Stanozol.
I do not know much about it,
but you have or had
Hematocrit-43.5%(37-49)
Hematocrit-55.9%(37-49)-----------------! ! ! !---(12/18/2008 labs)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

If your present 140mg/week average on EOD schedule gives you TT=1200
check SHBG
old SHBG=40
That gives you from chart
FreeT=260
you are at the bottom of the top 1/4 range
you are either ok or you can go up but only a little.

That includes whatewer you do with HCG.
Describe what you did right before blood draw (test, HCG, Anastrozole if any).
You may want to hold off on any changes with (T & HCG)
Figure out where you stay with E2 and DHT.
If your niples do not hurt, if sex but specially nightly wood are good, think twice about introducing Anastrozole.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your next big project is to get your thyroid specs in order.
You want TT3~160
I would drop Westroid and go for CytomelT3
In previous post I said 25mcgCytomelT3, change that to 2x25CytomelT3

myself I am using 3/4GrainArmour + 2x25mcgCytomelT3
I think I will drop Armour shortly, my temps are 36.8C wery nice
but my youth temps were 36.6C
we are talking minute tweaks here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

[crazycrew]

appetite of debilitated or weakened animals.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Be careful with Stanozol.
I do not know much about it,
but you have or had
Hematocrit-43.5%(37-49)
Hematocrit-55.9%(37-49)-----------------! ! ! !---(12/18/2008 labs)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

If your present 140mg/week average on EOD schedule gives you TT=1200
check SHBG
old SHBG=40
That gives you from chart
FreeT=260
you are at the bottom of the top 1/4 range
you are either ok or you can go up but only a little.

That includes whatewer you do with HCG.
Describe what you did right before blood draw (test, HCG, Anastrozole if any).
You may want to hold off on any changes with (T & HCG)
Figure out where you stay with E2 and DHT.
If your niples do not hurt, if sex but specially nightly wood are good, think twice about introducing Anastrozole.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------- The morning I drew blood was the morning I was due a dose (two days since last)
Night and morning wood has been good.

[JanSz]

The morning I drew blood was the morning I was due a dose (two days since last)
Night and morning wood has been good.

Take from your doc what he is able to give you.

Ultimately you are responsible for your own health.

.
.

[crazycrew]

Take from your doc what he is able to give you.

Ultimately you are responsible for your own health.


Agreed!!! Just frustrated I haven't been able to see the labs yet. Should be here by Tue next. Will post then.

[JanSz]

Thanks chilln

Now I'm stuck with 300.00 worth of this stuff I didn't want, can't afford, and wasn't properly consulted about. Wasn't sure what he (Dr assistant said it would lower my SHBG) was talking about so I went along. Then I started looking up information about it and asking you guys. Gotta find a decent Dr.,,,, Again...

They probably heard of Danazol but wrote Stanazol.

Double check.

But your SHBG=40
if that was me I would not push for Danazol either.

But be careful and do not use Stanazol,
may hurt you,
you have high hematocrit.

Stanazol is the last think that you need.

Sounds dangerous.

.
.

[crazycrew]

I Finally recieved my last test results. fasting am 8/21/09
,

My TRT protocal since mid April has been ;

.2cc test c 200mg EOD.
250 ui HCG EOD.
1 graim Westhroid daily
1 graim Phentermine daily




glucose,serum 97 mg/dl 65-99
bun 13 5-26
creatinine .94
Sodium 136 mmo1/L 135-145
Potassium 4.9 3.5-5.2
Carbon Dioxide 21 20-32
Calcium 8.7 mg/dl 8.5-10.6
Protein 6.1 g/dl 6.0-8.5
Albumine 3.9 3.5-5.5
Globuline 2.2 1.5-4.5
A/G ratio 1.5 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin total 0.6 0.1-1.2

Lipids
Cholesterol 245 H 100-199
triglycerides 71 0-149
HDL Chol 28 L >39


Thyroid
TSH 1.350 0.450-4.500
T4 5.4 4.5-12.0
T3 Uptake 32 24-39
Free thyroxine index 1.7 1.2-4.9
Free T3 3.3 2.3-4.2
Immunoassay
Prostate 0.4 0.0-4.0

insuline-like
growth factor I 79 L 81-225
Testosterone 1752 H 241-827
Free T 28.2 H 7.2-24.0
LH <0.3 L 1.5-9.3
FSH <0.3 1.4-18.1
Sex horm binding 54 23.0-116.3
Estradiol 90 H 0-53

I had been feeling so well that I hadn't donated any blood since 3 months ago but did go again the day I had this test drawn.

CBC


WBC 8.7 4.0-10.5
RBC 5.69 H 4.1-5.6
Hemoglobin 18.1 H 12.5-17.0
Hematocrit 55.1 H 36.0-50.0
MCV 97 80-98
MCH 31.8 27-34
MCHC 32.8 32-36
RDW 14 11.7-15
Platelets 221 140-415
Neutrophils 4.8 1.8-7.8
Lymphs 2.9 0.7-4.5
Monocytes 0.9 0.1-1.0

____________________________________

--new protocol

.1cc-test EOD,---10units--- 200mg/mL, -->70mg/week-average= .35cc
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1 graim Westhroid daily
D-3-----5000iu,
1 gm------Phentermine -daily
B-complex Sublingual ---daily ( but add B5)
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin

[Dadoo]

crazycrew
How do you feel (sex,strengh,well beeing,energy) walking around with 1752 T and 90 E2 !???

[crazycrew]

crazycrew
How do you feel (sex,strengh,well beeing,energy) walking around with 1752 T and 90 E2 !???

Up until a week or two ago I have been great. Still good, Sex good,, well being Good, Energy slowing and feeling bloated.

[JanSz]

Post details of your protocol that goes with your tests.
Also any changes suggested after dr read your blood test.
Best if you could do that by editing your blood test post.

Troopdptjurpmome 3.3 2.3-4.2

change that to

FreeT3=3.3 (2.3-4.2)

.

[crazycrew]

Post details of your protocol that goes with your tests.
Also any changes suggested after dr read your blood test.
Best if you could do that by editing your blood test post.

.

done

[JanSz]

done

10 units HCG EOD ???????

translate that into iu

.....

[crazycrew]

Sorry,,,, should have posted
250ui --- I changed it.

[JanSz]

Sorry,,,, should have posted
10ui --- I changed it.

Something is not kosher in HCG department.
Double check.
Start with
amount of powder--- xxxxIU=??
volume of liquid------ml=??
volume of individual shot=??

.

[crazycrew]

We've discused this before.
10 Units = 250 ui

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37775&postcount=91

[gman]

I get 11 units, and it's 500IU per dose. I think it's a factor of how much water is put in!

[crazycrew]

deleted

[gman]

CC, I am in the same boat...now one good thing at least is that the pharmacy our meds come from is very well-repsected. That's one good thing.

Where are you located, btw? edit: I see you live in Texas. There has to be someone there decent!

I am fortunate I have a doctor friend whom I trust implicitly, and am able to switch my care over to him, he is actually getting certified through A4M and is interested in the field of HRT. I only hope you can find someone as well.

[ptm82379]

I just did a thorough search and found my clinic on a suspected list.

The anti-aging craze has given birth to a lucrative but unethical business. In South Florida, many anti-aging clinics have flourished by using illegal products and prescriptions. These clinics promise anything from rapid weight loss to muscle building. Their online doctors supposedly take blood tests and prescribe treatment without ever getting to meet the patients. This practice was exposed when 14 people running 7 internet pharmacies were indicted by a federal grand jury in South Florida. Authorities suspect that this could just be the tip of the iceberg.

Facts on clinics administering illegal anti aging drugs
a. Many clinics sell drugs illegally.
b. Clients are people who wish to develop muscles, lose weight, burn fat and reverse the aging process.
c. Most of the products sold have no scientific data to verify their efficacy and safety.
d. Owners of these clinics are sometimes people with shady antecedents.
e. Frequenting these clinics and using their products can have harmful effects.
f. These clinics often get doctors to sign prescriptions illegally without meeting patients.

Some clinics under the scanner
a. Signature Pharmacy in Orlando
b. Palm Beach Rejuvenation Center
c. Palm Beach Life Extension in Palm Beach Gardens
d. The Health and Rejuvenation Center in Palm Beach Gardens
e. Infinity Rejuvenation in Deerfield Beach
f. Metragen Pharmaceuticals in Deerfield Beach

Better set you up an appt with Dr.C!

[gman]

where is the website you got this from, my new doc was saying some of the same stuff.

He said how would you like to be the doc in court if one of your patients had a heart attack:

Court: Dr X, please tell us the results of your thorough physical exam and initial consultation with MR G...

DR X: I have never examined nor spoken with Mr G.

FAIL!

[crazycrew]

Noth Texas. I'm going to sell some toys and go to Lansing.

http://www.plasmetic.com/skin/antiaging/south-florida-bears-the-brunt-of-illegal-antiaging-drug-use-by-clinics.html

[ptm82379]

Noth Texas. I'm going to sell some toys and go to Lansing.

http://www.plasmetic.com/skin/antiaging/south-florida-bears-the-brunt-of-illegal-antiaging-drug-use-by-clinics.html

Best thing you will ever do. You can get toys back a doctor that cares is priceless.

[JanSz]

09-15-2009
post #135 by crazycrew
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=53134&postcount=135

I Finally recieved my last test results. fasting am 8/21/09
,

My TRT protocal since mid April has been ;

.2cc test c 200mg EOD.(0.2cc-->140mg/week keep as is)
250 ui HCG EOD.------(keep as is)
1 graim Westhroid daily(replace with 50mcgCytomelT3 + one drpper full of Lugol's solution)
1 graim Phentermine daily(appetite suppressant)


Dr suggested changes

1 Testosterone Cypionate 200mg/ml. 1.5ml/wk IM
2 HCG 1 500units/2x wk SQ
3 Anastrozole 1cap/eod PO
4 Stanozolol 50mg 5troche/wk under tongue (do not use until triple checked, doc pbobly want Danazol)(you could use Danazol to lower SHBG)(Forget Danazol, 9/18/2009. )



glucose,serum 97 mg/dl 65-99(drop wheat, rice, potatos, sugar, high heat, etc)
bun 13 5-26
creatinine .94
Sodium 136 mmo1/L 135-145------ Suspect adrenals, check adrenals, what is your blood pressure?
Potassium 4.9 3.5-5.2
Carbon Dioxide 21 20-32
Calcium 8.7 mg/dl 8.5-10.6
Protein 6.1 g/dl 6.0-8.5
Albumine 3.9 3.5-5.5
Globuline 2.2 1.5-4.5
A/G ratio 1.5 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin total 0.6 0.1-1.2

Lipids
Cholesterol 245 H 100-199 (niacin-500mg/day + red yeast rice600mg/day+ lecithin)
triglycerides 71 0-149
HDL Chol 28 L >39


Thyroid
TSH 1.350 0.450-4.500
T4 5.4 4.5-12.0
T3 Uptake 32 24-39
Free thyroxine index 1.7 1.2-4.9
Free T3 3.3 2.3-4.2(low, see above for Cytomel)
Immunoassay
Prostate 0.4 0.0-4.0

insuline-like
growth factor I 79 L 81-225
Testosterone 1752 H 241-827
Free T 28.2 H 7.2-24.0
LH <0.3 L 1.5-9.3
FSH <0.3 1.4-18.1
Sex horm binding 54 23.0-116.3
Estradiol 90 H 0-53

I had been feeling so well that I hadn't donated any blood since 3 months ago but did go again the day I had this test drawn.
end CC, start JanSz
Figure out plebothomies frequency that will get you hemoglobin=16

with all that you do not want to screw your Ferritin levels.
Calling all brains for comments.


CBC


WBC 8.7 4.0-10.5
RBC 5.69 H 4.1-5.6
Hemoglobin 18.1 H 12.5-17.0(aim at hemoglobin=16, more phebotomies, watch ferritin)
Hematocrit 55.1 H 36.0-50.0
MCV 97 80-98
MCH 31.8 27-34
MCHC 32.8 32-36
RDW 14 11.7-15
Platelets 221 140-415
Neutrophils 4.8 1.8-7.8
Lymphs 2.9 0.7-4.5
Monocytes 0.9 0.1-1.0

------------------------
My comments above, within text.

Note:
You are not using Arimidex
your SHBG=54, E2=90 and feeling good
I suggest that yo keep Arimidex=Liquidex
Even with this high SHBG I think that you may not want more than E2~60
Either start using it right now or at first signs in breast or penis
0.1cc/E3D
but stop at first sign of softer penis.
My breast when covered by car's seat belt, feel uncomfortable when E2-high
My penis have first signs of ED, when E2-low


Are you taking

Vit A, B's, C, D, E, EPA/DHA----->post #20, are you taking all of recomended???

Eventually you should do
Hair Analysis
and
http://www.wellprovitamins.com/Spectracell_Vitamin_Test.html
http://www.spectracell.com/media/standard-doss-sample.pdf
Spectracell-5000
FIA™ Comprehensive Profile 5000
-----------------------------

Your testis are responding real well, do not change HCG
Your Testosterone 140mg/week is ok
Your FreeT=360 on chart (see attachment)
You have not enough T3
================================================
===============================
Ok keep in mind posts
#20, page #2
#23, page #3
#28, page #3
#30, page #3
#32, page #4
#74, page #8
#117, page #12
on this thread
======================

[crazycrew]

Feel tired, no energy, sleep ok (not great) Sleeping undisturbed for 5 to 6 hrs. Afternoon nap from 1 to 2 hours. Morning wood daily. Feel good for a couple of hours a day then exhausted. Major weight and water weight gains. Ringing in ears. (very recient)

Protocal since 9/15/2009

0.1cc-test EOD,---10units--- 200mg/mL, -->70mg/week-average= .35cc
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1 graim Westhroid daily (ordered T3 last week)
D-3-----5000iu,
1 gm------Phentermine -daily
B-complex Sublingual ---daily ( but add B5)
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin


Labs from 10/28/09
Waiting for salava test results.


Allergen profile---- normal
Catecholamines, Plas Norepinephrine, P1 732 High-----0 - 399
Catecholamine, Tot,P1 -------------------------793------high-----0 - 642
Vitamin B12 and Folate--------normal
Vitamin D, 25 - Hydroxy-------------------------26.9----Low----32.0 - 100.0
Insoline free and total----normal
LDL --------------------------------------219------High --------<130
HDL --------------------------------------31 -----Low----------->40
VLDL----------------------------------------32------high--------<30
Tryglycerides---------------------------------218-----High----------<150
Non HDL (LDL.VLDL)---------------------------251-----High---------<161
LDL-R (real)-C--------------------------------189-----High----------<100
Remnant Lipo (IDL.VLDL3)---------------------48-------High------<30
Hdl-2----------------------------------------7--------low----------->10
Hdl-3----------------------------------------23-------Low----------->30
Vldl-3----------------------------------------20-------High-----------<10

Wbc & RBC-----------------------------------Normal
( Donated Blood 3 weeks prior)
Hemoglobin ----------------------------------18---------High---12.5 -17.0
Hematocrit-----------------------------------52.7--------high---36.0 -50.0

Glucose sirum--------------------------------99-----Borderline---65 - 99

BAT w/o SHBG-(total)------------------------974------------ 350 - 1030

Testosterone, Free/tot Equilib-----------------813------------241 - 827
Testosterone, Free-------------------------26.66-----High----5.0 - 21.0
Reverse T3--------------------------------240----------------90 - 350
T4----------------------------------------6.0 - ---------------4.5 - 12.0
T3----------------------------------------154-----------------83 - 200

LH-----------------------------------------<0.3--------Low----1.5 - 9.3
FSH---------------------------------------<0.3---------Low----1.4 - 18.1
DHT------------------------------------ 85--------borderline--30 - 85

Estradiol, Sensitive--------------------------49------------------3 - 70

Cortisol---------------------------------13.6-----------------4.3 - 22.4
Progesterone----------------------------- 0.5-----------------0.3 - 1.2
Estrone, Serum-----------------------------87-------High------12 - 72
SHBG-------------------------------------44-------------------13 - 71

-######################################

From Jansz




Norepineprine-high
Catecholamine,tot,P1,-high
let me know what they will do and if it helped.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Cholesterrol high
HDL-low

on post #151
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?p=53201&highlight=crazycrew#post53201
I asked you to take:
(niacin-500mg/day + red yeast rice600mg/day+ lecithin)
Have you followed?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Hemoglobin-18 (should be at 16)
Hematocrit 52.7 high
you have to donate blood on regular basis, and figure out how often by testing
------------------------------------------------------------------
Last time you had
TestosteroneTotal 1752
SHBG-54
now
TestosteroneTotal 974
SHBG-44
DHT=85(30-85)good
I suggest that you go back to higher testosterone dosing, you can see clearly that it works, it is getting SHBG down.

E2sensitive=49(3-70) may be just about right (this time), watch for signs, as your SHBG goes down, so will have to your E2.
------------------------------------------------------------------
CortisolTotal=13(8-19)tiny bit low
FreeCortisol=0.71(0.2-1.8)little low
------------------------------------------------------------------
FreeT3=3.8(2.0-4.4)
FreeT4=1.12(0.82-1.77)
TT4=6(4.5-12) do not worry, around 4 would be just fine
TT3=154(83-200)should be about 180(beginning of 1/3 is at 161, you are approaching target)
RT3=240(90-350)should be below 220
TSH-1.91

you were doing 1 graim Westhroid daily
I asked you to change it to
(replace with 50mcgCytomelT3 + one dropper full of Lugol's solution)
have you listen?

But in all, your thyroid is missing only little bit, you are getting close to desired area.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Vit D-low use 4-5 drops Biotic Research Bio-D-Mulsion Forte, 1drop=2000iu Vit D

DHEA-120 low, get some DHEA pills..
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[JanSz]

You say:
Afternoon nap from 1 to 2 hours. Morning wood daily. Feel good for a couple of hours a day then exhausted. Major weight and water weight gains. Ringing in ears. (very recient)

BUN/creatine ratio----19(8-27)
Sodium--137(135-145)
Potassium--4.2(3.5-145)
Renin--------1.19--upright(1.31-3.95)supine(0.15-2.33)you were probably sitting up
Aldosterone----11.4(1.0-16.0)
Cortisol,Total--13.6(3.1-22.4)
Cortisol,Total,serum--13(8-19)
Cortisol,Free,serum--0.71(0.2-1.8)
%Cortisol,Free,serum--5.4(2.3-9.5)
DHEAs--120 low
Copper,serum---137(70-155)
Ceruloplasmin--26.6(16.2-35.6)
Vit-D --low
================================================== =========

Renin and sodium low.
post your
blood pressure, pulse

Not sure if you shuold get kidney/adrenals tests.

Cortef--30mg/day (just in case)=10+10+5+5

get Florinef and salt and figure out proper Florinef dosing.
================================================== ==========

The table below indicates the changes in renin, aldosterone, and cortisol that occur with different disorders.
http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/aldosterone/test.html

You do not fit clearly into any of them, need just little tweak.
http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/aldosterone/test.html
================================================== ==========
You are not as bad as Drew, but we can learn from him.
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3777&highlight=drew+renin

================================================== ===========
Ringing in ears. (very recient)

May be low ferritin and your blood letting related.

Ferritin=68
not that bad but eat 10 tabs/day of UNI-Liver
=====================================
Are you eating aspirin with B3, sometimes aspirin cause ringing.
===============
.......

[crazycrew]

There are two test results coming. One is the salava from Geniva (adrenals?) and one was a urine test (not sure what for) that required a special (acid washed) container.

[JanSz]

post your
temperature, blood pressure, pulse

Make sure that you are calm and sitting for 1/2hr to 1hr before testing.
Nothing in the mouth.

......

[crazycrew]

I have an appointment with Dr in about a week. The ball and chain and I will be flying to Washington DC and will spent a week in the area. We have a tour of the White House on the 17th and plan to spend a day at the Smithsonian. Other than that will play it by ear. Going to Chesapeak Bay (fresh sea food) near West Point and just drive around the area and take in the sights. Thanks for the offer to stop by, would love to visit and see your new grand baby, but I doubt we will get that far north.

[JanSz]

I have an appointment with Dr. O and Hans in about a week. The ball and chain and I will be flying to Washington DC and will spent a week in the area. We have a tour of the White House on the 17th and plan to spend a day at the Smithsonian. Other than that will play it by ear. Going to Chesapeak Bay (fresh sea food) near West Point and just drive around the area and take in the sights. Thanks for the offer to stop by, would love to visit and see your new grand baby, but I doubt we will get that far north.

You just made my baby cry.

.

[crazycrew]

post your
temperature, blood pressure, pulse

Make sure that you are calm and sitting for 1/2hr to 1hr before testing.
Nothing in the mouth.

......


Haven't kept a close tab on them but morning temps are slightly low and day temps are good. BP has been good and pulse slightly elevated. (meds) I will start checking them again.

[chilln]

Feel tired, no energy, sleep ok (not great) Sleeping undisturbed for 5 to 6 hrs. Afternoon nap from 1 to 2 hours. Morning wood daily. Feel good for a couple of hours a day then exhausted. Major weight and water weight gains.


Sounds like a cortisol and/or insulin sensitivity issue.




Ringing in ears. (very recient)


That's usually low E2.




Waiting for salava test results.


These are going to be super critical

####

I've extracted the following highlights:



( Donated Blood 3 weeks prior)
Hemoglobin ----------------------------------18---------High---12.5 -17.0
Hematocrit-----------------------------------52.7--------high---36.0 -50.0
Glucose serum--------------------------------99-----Borderline---65 - 99
Reverse T3--------------------------------240----------------90 - 350
T4----------------------------------------6.0 - ---------------4.5 - 12.0
T3----------------------------------------154-----------------83 - 200
Estradiol, Sensitive--------------------------49------------------3 - 70
Cortisol---------------------------------13.6-----------------4.3 - 22.4


1) Discuss with your medical professional adviser to monitor your insulin resistance more closely - eg: what's your body fat percentage ? do you have your own blood-glucose monitoring kit ?

2) Donate blood again, or just dump it.

3) Thyroid looks OK so far, I wouldn't jump on it just yet - more likely cortisol and/or insulin sensitivity.

4) E2 looks high here, but I suspect your E2 levels are probably unstable, from too high to too low. This is a problem. Discuss with your medical professional adviser to take compounded arimidex at 0.05mg or 0.10mg, more frequently, instead of 1/2 tabs or 1/4 tabs.

It takes a while to work out when is the best time to take the arimidex caps, but a little trial-and-error should nail it.

5) While morning fasting cortisol is OK, I'm not convinced it's OK through the day.

.

[crazycrew]

[QUOTE=chilln;59207]Sounds like a cortisol and/or insulin sensitivity issue.

I just found out cortisol
"Abnormal high in the afternoon and rise as night goes on."


1) Discuss with your medical professional adviser to monitor your insulin resistance more closely - eg: what's your body fat percentage ? do you have your own blood-glucose monitoring kit ?

Fat percentage probably 20%/ no glucose kit. Marternal grandmother had diabetes

Glucose sirum-------------------99-----Borderline---65 - 99




2) Donate blood again, or just dump it.

24 vials of blood for test 10 days ago.

3) Thyroid looks OK so far, I wouldn't jump on it just yet - more likely cortisol and/or insulin sensitivity.

4) E2 looks high here, but I suspect your E2 levels are probably unstable, from too high to too low. This is a problem. Discuss with your medical professional adviser to take compounded arimidex at 0.05mg or 0.10mg, more frequently, instead of 1/2 tabs or 1/4 tabs.

It takes a while to work out when is the best time to take the arimidex caps, but a little trial-and-error should nail it.

5) While morning fasting cortisol is OK, I'm not convinced it's OK through the day.

Again

I just found out cortisol "
Abnormal high in the afternoon and rise as night goes on."

[crazycrew]

High Cortisol

All the symptoms listed fit me. In fact could have been my main problem all the time even though my original testosterone levels were in the low normal
range.


http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C314595.html

[crazycrew]

The problem with this is the suggested treatment:

Managing stress is a very important part of your healthcare program. A blood, urine or saliva hormone test for cortisol can serve as a stress barometer, warning you of continual exposure to stress, and therefore to potential disease. Testing will let you know if you need to do something about your stress, such as taking action to change your circumstances, or making strides in new areas of relaxation and stress relief. Once you know your cortisol level you can begin to take stress-reducing measures in your life and protect your long-term health.

I'm semi retired and truthfully don't see any stress I can think of. Except when the Cowboys play like crap.

[JanSz]

High Cortisol

All the symptoms listed fit me. In fact could have been my main problem all the time even though my original testosterone levels were in the low normal
range.


http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C314595.html

Post those symptoms here,
symptoms that led you to believe that you have high cortisol
---------------------------------
10/28/09 probably early in the morning, you had

Total Cortisol, serum=13ug/dL(8AM-(8-19)(4PM-(4-11)
Free Cortisol,serum=0.71ug/dL(8Am(0.2-1.8)
Percent Free Cortisol, serum=5.4%(8AM-(2.3-9.5)

Cort.Bind.Glob=2.7mg/dL(2.3-3.9)

Cortisol-----13.6ug/dL(3.1-22.4)

DHEAs=120ug/dL


Renin=1.19ng/mL/hr(upright-1.31-3.95)(supine-0.15-2.33)
sodium,serum=137(135-145)nmol/L

Assuming that you were sitting while drawing blood,
your renin is low. Also sodium is very close to low range.

your cortisol, total and free and %%Free cortisol
are in the middle of range.


high TT4,
high RT3,
low D

---------------

[crazycrew]

I know its more than high cortisol just wishful thinking. I based the responce because of the results of the saliva test which I don't have in front of me but was told that the levels were high at noon and continued to rise through out the evening. I have or have had most of the symptoms listed below



symptoms of high cortisol are:

http://www.ehow.com/about_5505373_signs-symptoms-high-levels-cortisol.html

Fatigue
One of the first warning signs of elevated cortisol levels is a feeling of fatigue or tiredness throughout the day. This is because elevated cortisol disrupts your sleep cycle, making it harder for you to get a restful night's sleep. If it is affecting your day to day life, you should have your cortisol levels checked so that you can get a good night's sleep and get back to normal.


Depression and Anxiety

Cortisol is produced in the brain as a response to high-stress situations. However, when your cortisol levels are too high, it can diminish your ability to deal with day-to-day stress and stressful situations. You may find that you are unnaturally anxious or even depressed, not want to leave your house or wary of social situations. Your cortisol levels need to be regulated for your to cope with stress effectively again.


Weight Gain


Although commercials for diet pills will try to explain that cortisol makes you fat, it is simply not the case. However, high cortisol levels may result in a storage of excess fat in the hips, thighs and belly. This is because when your cortisol levels are elevated, you can't deal with stress as effectively, leading you to eat from the stress. Cortisol then prompts your body to store that visceral fat in the abdominal cavity next to your organs.

Low Libido


Thanks to your diminished ability to deal with stress, along with anxiety and depression, those with a high level of cortisol will experience a decrease in their libido as well. When you are in a depressed state, you'll notice that you're losing interest in things that you once enjoyed, like sex. If you previously had a high libido and it has suddenly decreased, it's time to go visit your health care provider to have your levels tested.

High Blood Pressure


As your cortisol levels increase, so do your blood pressure numbers. This is because without the ability to effectively deal with stress, your blood pressure also takes a hit, making you have unnaturally stressful responses to things such as noise, situations and anger. Your blood pressure takes the brunt of this stress without functioning cortisol to deal with it. Keep your cortisol levels healthy so your entire body works at peak performance

[JanSz]

I know its more than high cortisol just wishful thinking. I based the responce because of the results of the saliva test which I don't have in front of me but was told that the levels were high at noon and continued to rise through out the evening. I have or have had most of the symptoms listed below



symptoms of high cortisol are:

http://www.ehow.com/about_5505373_signs-symptoms-high-levels-cortisol.html

Fatigue
Depression and Anxiety
Weight Gain--
---------
Low Libido-- you recently were up beat in this area
---------
High Blood Pressure-- you recently reported that it is ok



You will have to reconcile you FreeCortisol, serum levels with results from saliva tests.
Best would be 24hr urine Cortisol, so we could see daily averages.

Exploratory course of Phosphytidalserine, (as suggested by Analyst) taking 100mg up to three times a day, is always possibility.

Recently you were on very high Testosterone dose followed by lower testosterone dose.
Which one made you feel better?
Keep in mind 10 points drop in you SHBG, attributed (I think) to very high T dose.

Some part of your fatigue have to be attributed to high Hct & Hg, frequent phebotomies and Hct & Hg jo-jo that you are going thru.

I am assuming that high testosterone input should eventually get your SHBG in to (15-20) range. As you SHBG is getting lower, you will have to adjust downward testosterone injections, so you could keep steady as possible BAT level BAT~600 or slightly higher.

Hopefully with lower SHBG & lower Testosterone input your Hct & Hg will stabilize so you could live without phebotomies.

At this point I would rather emphasize on:

renin,
sodium
testosterone
RT3
...........
.

[crazycrew]

Possible adrenal fatigue?
Link to saliva test
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp


It was suggested that I split my Westroid dose to reduce the afternoon spike. It's strange to me that I take the Westroid early AM and feel good until noonish and crash in the afternoon. If my adrenals are so high in the pm; why the crash?

link to latest blood work
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2379910700043179207CRwihy


Medical advisors suggested protocol.
.26cc Test weekly.
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1/2 graim Westhroid twice daily
vitamin D
B-complex Sublingual ---daily
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin
Take Dr Wilsons HPA helper

10 drops in the morning in water

5 drops in the afternoon in water

no coffee 2 hours before


Traceminerals –

½ tsp in the morning with water

Detox-Kit (from Heel) for 4 weeks.

½ cup of epsoms salt in bath water hot as you can stand it for 20-30 minutes 3-4 nightly

Helps detox

Reduce diet coke 1 each week then stop it.

[crazycrew]

You will have to reconcile you FreeCortisol, serum levels with results from saliva tests.
Best would be 24hr urine Cortisol, so we could see daily averages.

Exploratory course of Phosphytidalserine, (as suggested by Analyst) taking 100mg up to three times a day, is always possibility.

Recently you were on very high Testosterone dose followed by lower testosterone dose.
Which one made you feel better?
Keep in mind 10 points drop in you SHBG, attributed (I think) to very high T dose.
Some part of your fatigue have to be attributed to high Hct & Hg, frequent phebotomies and Hct & Hg jo-jo that you are going thru.

I am assuming that high testosterone input should eventually get your SHBG in to (15-20) range. As you SHBG is getting lower, you will have to adjust downward testosterone injections, so you could keep steady as possible BAT level BAT~600 or slightly higher.

Hopefully with lower SHBG & lower Testosterone input your Hct & Hg will stabilize so you could live without phebotomies.

At this point I would rather emphasize on:

renin,
sodium
testosterone
RT3
...........
.

The SHBG lowered I assume because in the drop of test doses. (140mg reduced to 70mg weekly)
Body temp has been steadily dropping for the past few months.
Will start monthly phebotomies verses every 6 weeks.

[JanSz]

The SHBG lowered I assume because in the drop of test doses. (140mg reduced to 70mg weekly)
Body temp has been steadily dropping for the past few months.
Will start monthly phebotomies verses every 6 weeks.

You are confusing me.
Please recreate timeline of events of your testosterone supplementation.
--------------------------------------

My recollection is as follows:

you started with low TotalTestosterone, very low BAT, and high SHBG
then
you were using testosterone shots that resulted in
very
high TotalTestosterone, BAT that was still within range, and SHBG 10point lower then starting value (SHBG being still at very high level)

you also started feeling much better
------

Your medical advisor disregarding good progress (feeling better and having better SHBG)
asks you to lower your weekly testosterone dose because hi is scared of your TT being way above top range.

I was thinking of either keeping your previous weekly dose of Testosterone or even increasing it.
===========================================
Usually SHBG gets lower when there is an excess of testosterone.
That is theory,
we have to clarify what is happening in your case.
============================================
I am trying to save you from using Danazol and/or Stanozolol
as a way of reducing SHBG

================================================== ==

Your low body temperatures dropping.

You have to convince your medical advisor to stop recommending any thyroid hormonal supplementation that contains T4.
Your first stop should be 50mcg-T3/day
followed two week latter with 75mcg-T3/day (indefinitely)

Assuming adequate mineral and vitamin support of adrenals and thyroid plus any HC/phophatidydserine support of adrenals
================================================== ==
================================================== ==

...

[crazycrew]

You are confusing me.
Please recreate timeline of events of your testosterone supplementation.
--------------------------------------
=========================
================================================== ==

...

TRT protocal from mid April til mid Sept. ;

.2cc test c 200mg EOD. (.7cc weekly)
250 ui HCG EOD.
1 graim Westhroid daily
1 graim Phentermine daily
Felt fantastic untill end of Aug then started downhill



Protocal since from mid Sept till mid Nov

.35cc weekly total
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1 graim Westhroid daily
D-3-----5000iu,
1 gm------Phentermine -daily
B-complex Sublingual ---daily ( but add B5)
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin

Feeling no better. Ok for a couple of hours then crash in PM

New protocol previously listed.

.26cc Test weekly. (reduced by 25%)
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1/2 graim Westhroid twice daily
vitamin D
B-complex Sublingual ---daily
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin
Take Dr Wilsons HPA helper

[JanSz]

TRT protocal from mid April til mid Sept. ;

.2cc test c 200mg EOD. (.7cc weekly)(-------->140mg/week average)
250 ui HCG EOD.
1 graim Westhroid daily
1 graim Phentermine daily
Felt fantastic untill end of Aug then started downhill

Above resulted in:
Total Testosterone=XXXXXX
SHBG=XXXXXX

================================================== ========
Protocal since from mid Sept till mid Nov

.35cc weekly total---------------------------------------->70mg/week average
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1 graim Westhroid daily
D-3-----5000iu,
1 gm------Phentermine -daily
B-complex Sublingual ---daily ( but add B5)
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin

Feeling no better. Ok for a couple of hours then crash in PM

Above resulted in:
Total Testosterone=XXXXXX
SHBG=XXXXXX
================================================== ========
New protocol previously listed.

.26cc Test weekly. (reduced by 25%)----------------------------->52mg/week average
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1/2 graim Westhroid twice daily
vitamin D
B-complex Sublingual ---daily
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin
Take Dr Wilsons HPA helper

Above resulted in:
Total Testosterone=XXXXXX
SHBG=XXXXXX


Please edit above post, add values in the red.

================================================== =======
Does any of your problen could be atributed to your use of phentermine?



Fastin(phentermine hydrochloride) Capsule
SIDE EFFECTS
Cardiovascular: Palpitation, tachycardia, elevation of blood pressure.

Central Nervous System: Overstimulation, restlessness, dizziness, insomnia, euphoria, dysphoria, tremor, headache; rarely psychotic episodes at recommended doses.

Gastrointestinal: Dryness of the mouth, unpleasant taste, diarrhea, constipation, other gastrointestinal disturbances.

Allergic: Urticaria.

Endocrine: Impotence, changes in libido.
...

[crazycrew]

Originally Posted by crazycrew
TRT protocal from mid April til mid Sept. ;

.2cc test c 200mg EOD. (.7cc weekly)(-------->140mg/week average)
250 ui HCG EOD.
1 graim Westhroid daily
1 graim Phentermine daily
Felt fantastic untill end of Aug then started downhill

Above resulted in:
Total Testosterone=XXXXXX
SHBG=XXXXXX

Test Serym 1752 (241 - 827 )
Free T 28.2 (7.2 - 24.0_
SHGB 54 (13 - 71)

T3 Uptake 32 ( 23 - 39)

================================================== ========
Protocal since from mid Sept till mid Nov

.35cc weekly total---------------------------------------->70mg/week average
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1 graim Westhroid daily
D-3-----5000iu,
B-complex Sublingual ---daily ( but add B5)
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin

Feeling no better. Ok for a couple of hours then crash in PM
mentaly ok, sex drive ok, just no energy or motovation.


Above resulted in:
Total Testosterone=XXXXXX
SHBG=XXXXXX

TT free 813 (214 - 827)
Free T 23.66 (5.0 - 21.0 0
BAT 974
E sens 49 (3 - 70)
Esterone 87 (12 - 72)
SHGB 44 ( 13 - 71)

Corisol very low am, Very low Noon, spikes very high afternoon ( westroid?) and normal evening
Major ringing in ears for past 3 weeks.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp
================================================== ========
New protocol

.26cc Test weekly. (reduced by 25%)----------------------------->52mg/week average
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1/2 graim Westhroid twice daily
vitamin D
B-complex Sublingual ---daily
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin
Take Dr Wilsons HPA helper

Above resulted in:
Total Testosterone=XXXXXX
SHBG=XXXXXX

Just started this protocol

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by crazycrew
TRT protocal from mid April til mid Sept. ;

.2cc test c 200mg EOD. (.7cc weekly)(-------->140mg/week average)
250 ui HCG EOD.
1 graim Westhroid daily
1 graim Phentermine daily
Felt fantastic untill end of Aug then started downhill

Above resulted in:
Total Testosterone=XXXXXX
SHBG=XXXXXX

Test Serym 1752 (241 - 827 )
Free T 28.2 (7.2 - 24.0_
SHGB 54 (13 - 71)

T3 Uptake 32 ( 23 - 39)

================================================== ========
Protocal since from mid Sept till mid Nov

.35cc weekly total---------------------------------------->70mg/week average
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1 graim Westhroid daily
D-3-----5000iu,
B-complex Sublingual ---daily ( but add B5)
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin

Feeling no better. Ok for a couple of hours then crash in PM
mentaly ok, sex drive ok, just no energy or motovation.


Above resulted in:
Total Testosterone=XXXXXX
SHBG=XXXXXX

TT free 813 (214 - 827)
Free T 23.66 (5.0 - 21.0 0
BAT 974
E sens 49 (3 - 70)
Esterone 87 (12 - 72)
SHGB 44 ( 13 - 71)

Corisol very low am, Very low Noon, spikes very high afternoon ( westroid?) and normal evening
Major ringing in ears for past 3 weeks.

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp
================================================== ========
New protocol

.26cc Test weekly. (reduced by 25%)----------------------------->52mg/week average
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1/2 graim Westhroid twice daily
vitamin D
B-complex Sublingual ---daily
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin
Take Dr Wilsons HPA helper

Above resulted in:
Total Testosterone=XXXXXX
SHBG=XXXXXX

Just started this protocol

I would rather if you stay on my recommendations in post #151 page#16 (9/15/09)
plus add 30mg/day Hydrocortisone of Cortef.

Let me know what you decided.

..

Who did your testosterone testing?
Very generous people, they probably work for Obama, but if not for him, then for Acorn for sure.

One time they said that you total amount of testosterone is 813

and the BioAvailable fraction (of this 813) is greater that the whole, and is equal= 974.

That is good if you are politician trying to con gullible people,
but ng if you paying cash for blood tests.

In terms of chart
TT=813
SHBG=44

FreeT~160 (need twice of what you have)

If you could, get back on old (T + HCG) shedule.

....

[crazycrew]

I would rather if you stay on my recommendations in post #151 page#16 (9/15/09)
plus add 30mg/day Hydrocortisone of Cortef. Why do I need it and where do you get it?
Let me know what you decided.

..

Who did your testosterone testing? Lab Corp
Very generous people, they probably work for Obama, but if not for him, then for Acorn for sure.

One time they said that you total amount of testosterone is 813

and the BioAvailable fraction (of this 813) is greater that the whole, and is equal= 974.

That is good if you are politician trying to con gullible people,
but ng if you paying cash for blood tests.

In terms of chart
TT=813
SHBG=44

FreeT~160 (need twice of what you have) From what chart?
If you could, get back on old (T + HCG) shedule.

.... Thank you again JanSz

[canthavetoomanytoys]

If you could, get back on old (T + HCG) shedule.

It would seem from the T perspective crazycrew is headed backward. Go back to TRT with aim to high end, add-in HCG EOD for libido and other beneficial boost, IMHO

[crazycrew]

It would seem from the T perspective crazycrew is headed backward. Go back to TRT with aim to high end, add-in HCG EOD for libido and other beneficial boost, IMHO

Thanks for responding cant. But don't you think my Sept numbers were a bit over the top?

Test Serym 1752 (241 - 827 )
Free T 28.2 (7.2 - 24.0_
SHGB 54 (13 - 71)

[canthavetoomanytoys]

[QUOTE=crazycrew;64931]Thanks for responding cant. But don't you think my Sept numbers were a bit over the top?

I was looking at total T of around 827 if total T range was truly 214 - 827.

Go back to the lab companies web page and find the total T range for a healthy 25-year old and base your present and future TT on that. Being in the higher region of range is best if you are not going to extreme to fight against elevated E2. Chilln often discusses the compromise that you must determine (to paraphrase)

JanSz looks at BAT and will flirt with highish TT to achieve BAT in upper quarter of its range. He has a doctor who will support this view of BAT versus TT. I am not saying JanSz is wrong (I'll never have his clinical knowledge) but finding many doctors to treat you above the TT range is difficult.

[JanSz]

Thanks for responding cant. But don't you think my Sept numbers were a bit over the top?

Test Serym 1752 (241 - 827 )
Free T 28.2 (7.2 - 24.0_
SHGB 54 (13 - 71)

crazycrew,

look at chart I posted, on the bottom of post #151

with your then SHBG=54
to get proper FreeT
you need TT~1750

your TT=1752
is exactly what you need.
no more, not much less.

this is the force that pushed your SHBG down
and latter you have had it 10 points lower.

this is force that is saving you from
Danazol ans Stanozolol.

You should have stayed on that (T & HCG) that got you there.

Now your SHBG went from 54--->44

If you lucky and get it down to 44--->20, we will have to reduce weekly T dose, but not sooner.
.....

Before you start using T3, you need to make sure that adrenals/thyroid support system is in place.


.........
.
.

[crazycrew]

crazycrew,


Before you start using T3, you need to make sure that adrenals/thyroid support system is in place.


.........
.
.

I may not have a choice. I'll be making my third trip to the pharmacy today (50miles round trip) to pick up Westroid. After aprox 9000.00 in expences last month ( labs, travel, ect) for professional advice It would be silly of me not to try the Detox system and recommendations to see if there are improvements. Nothing after a week but will stay with it for now.

[JanSz]

I may not have a choice. I'll be making my third trip to the pharmacy today (50miles round trip) to pick up Westroid. After aprox 9000.00 in expences last month ( labs, travel, ect) for professional advice It would be silly of me not to try the Detox system and recommendations to see if there are improvements. Nothing after a week but will stay with it for now.

$9000 a month

thank you for supporting our ailing economy, President Obama is proud of you.

And this is from a person who is not able to work.

I see three problems in the advice that you are getting now.

Way to low average weekly testosterone dose.

Use of thyroid hormones that contain T4.

Lack of adrenal support in a face of very low saliva cortisol test.

-------------------------------------------

I understand that after spending so much money you want to give it a time and see if it would work.

Human nature.

Just do not wait too long.

By any chance do not post a name of your medical advisor,
that would restrict freedom of opinions.
....

[crazycrew]

What does this tell you? (my cortisol test results) My medical adviser says the spike was because of the Westroid I was taking. (1mg a day) He has had me split that into two .5mg doses a day. A week after this test I ran out of westroid and took T3 for 2 weeks untill I got "Thyroid" (Canadian armor). I honestly haven't gotten any better.

Image wouldn't download. Here is a link http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp

[JanSz]

What does this tell you? (my cortisol test results) My medical adviser says the spike was because of the Westroid I was taking. (1mg a day) He has had me split that into two .5mg doses a day. A week after this test I ran out of westroid and took T3 for 2 weeks untill I got "Thyroid" (Canadian armor). I honestly haven't gotten any better.

Image wouldn't download. Here is a link http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp

Last I know about you, here:
09-15-2009

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=53201&postcount=151

not sure if you are making any use of it.

Your thyroid analysis was sketchy at the time, but I would use T3 rather than (T4 + T3).

I noted there a marginal sodium.

Sodium 136 mmo1/L 135-145

Was there any action on that?

Will be a good idea to get at one time

Sodium
potassium
renin
aldosterone

and all other adrenal/thyroid supporting elements,
using
FIA™ Comprehensive Profile 5000 (Submit: 2 FULL Blue / Black CPT)
would be helpful here.

You may need combination

cortef/florinef/T3
on top of what
Spectracell would advise.

..

[crazycrew]

Originally Posted by crazycrew
What does this tell you? (my cortisol test results) My medical adviser says the spike was because of the Westroid I was taking. (1mg a day) He has had me split that into two .5mg doses a day. A week after this test I ran out of westroid and took T3 for 2 weeks untill I got "Thyroid" (Canadian armor). I honestly haven't gotten any better.

Image wouldn't download. Here is a link http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...43179207mXLhkp




Last I know about you, here:
09-15-2009

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=53201&postcount=151


..

I was wondering what the opinions might be about my last cotisol test.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by crazycrew
What does this tell you? (my cortisol test results) My medical adviser says the spike was because of the Westroid I was taking. (1mg a day) He has had me split that into two .5mg doses a day. A week after this test I ran out of westroid and took T3 for 2 weeks untill I got "Thyroid" (Canadian armor). I honestly haven't gotten any better.

Image wouldn't download. Here is a link http://good-times.webshots.com/photo...43179207mXLhkp





I was wondering what the opinions might be about my last cotisol test.

HAPPY 2010 NEW YEAR

I would drop supplementation with T4 (close to forever) and use Cytomel-T3 only.

First goal
TT in upper 1/3
rT3 in lower half

after you are there,
if you can afford (the luxury) of having some TT4
tweak T3 supplementation so your
TSH>0
that will induce your own, natural, T4 production.

It is nice and comfortable to have some TT4
but TT3 & rT3 are first priority.
--------
--------
About your saliva test.

Lets give (conveniently) a first priority to opinion of your medical advisor.

So if you drop T4 you cortisol will be peachy, no spikes.

Your test results attached, but also here:
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp
=============
Your Cortisol is low first two measurements,
#3 is high
#4 within range (but high)

Your options:

Get
Spectracell-5000
and do all that they tell you.
That will provide all required adrenal supplementation and more.

Other than that
I would put you 30mg/day Cortef (10+10+5+5)

Retest after 1-2 months
with a eye that you may need some Florinef.

so, at least

sodium
potassium
renin
aldosterone

-----------------
....

One day, it would be a good idea to lineup and refresh, your
test results
procedure that you are using
medicine and supplementation that you are using

it is kind of hard to jump around and search.
It is easy to miss something important.

+++++++++++++++++++++++

In case you have a time,
this is from my last Christmas:

http://www.photoworks.com/slideshow/album/A1682F139071?source=pw980



///////////////

---------------

..

[pmgamer18]

Put the new Thyroid from ERFA under your tongue it works for me better this way you don't have to worry about what you ate or the milk your had.

What does this tell you? (my cortisol test results) My medical adviser says the spike was because of the Westroid I was taking. (1mg a day) He has had me split that into two .5mg doses a day. A week after this test I ran out of westroid and took T3 for 2 weeks untill I got "Thyroid" (Canadian armor). I honestly haven't gotten any better.

Image wouldn't download. Here is a link http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp

[crazycrew]

Put the new Thyroid from ERFA under your tongue it works for me better this way you don't have to worry about what you ate or the milk your had.

Tried it and desolved easily. no taste at all. Hope it starts to work. Thanks

[chilln]

What does this tell you?


Could you please post a summary of your current state of play ?

I wasn't able to determine from the latest posts in this thread, what were the current issues.

.

[crazycrew]

Could you please post a summary of your current state of play ?

I wasn't able to determine from the latest posts in this thread, what were the current issues.

.

Libido ok for past month. (had about a week of nightly and morning wood) Sleep not good, no energy/motivation, weight gain ( back up to 262 from Aug low of 238 )

Dec labs

TT free 813 (214 - 827)
Free T 23.66 (5.0 - 21.0 0
BAT 974
E sens 49 (3 - 70)
Esterone 87 (12 - 72)
SHGB 44 ( 13 - 71)

link to total labs: http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2379910700043179207CRwihy


Protocol since Dec 15 09

.26cc Test weekly.
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1/2 graim Westhroid twice daily
vitamin D 10,000mg
B-complex Sublingual ---daily
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin

Take Dr Wilsons HPA helper
10 drops in the morning in water

5 drops in the afternoon in water

no coffee 2 hours before


Traceminerals –

½ tsp in the morning with water

Detox-Kit (from Heel) for 4 weeks.
Benadryl and 5mg Melatonin nightly.

(not scripted).25mg anastrozole about once a week / when I feel effects of high E2.

[JanSz]

This post supercedes all my previous suggestions
================================================== ========================
Post #187 by CrazyCrew
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=73125&postcount=187

Blood test done 10/28/09
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2379910700043179207CRwihy


Cholesterol-Total=282

RedYeast Rice-1200mg/day
Niacin-1000mg/day plus 325mg Aspirine
----------------------------------------------------------
insulin,total=8.8(0-22)
glucose=99(previous test 97)

stop all high GI food, eat only meat, eggs, fish, green vegetables and herbs
----------------------------------------------------------
Hemoglobin-18
Hematocrit-52.7
ferritin=68

phlebotomy
---------------------------------------------------------
sodium=137(135-145)
potassium=4.2(3.5-5.2)
renin=1.19 upright(1.31-3.95) supine(0.15-2.33) (assume blood was taken upright)
aldosterone=11.4(1.0-16.0)
ACTH=32(6-48)

cortisol=13
freeCortisol=0.71(0.2-1.8)

Corteff=HC--30mg/day(10+10+5+5)
or discuss Medrol=6mg/day

Seriously discuss adding Florinef
eat salt
------------------------------------------------------
TT=813
SHBG=44
chart--->FreeT=155(300-350)

E2-sensitive=49
DHT=85

increase T to 140mg/week (EOD schedule)

Arimidex=0.25mg with shots (EOD)

-------------------------------
TSH-1.9
TT4=6
TT3=154
RT3=240(90-350)

stop any T4, use only Cytomel-T3=75mg/day
------------------------------------------------------------
Vit D---low
DHEAs---low
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your protocol since Dec 15 09
.26cc Test weekly.
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1/2 graim Westhroid twice daily
vitamin D 10,000mg
B-complex Sublingual ---daily
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin

Take Dr Wilsons HPA helper
10 drops in the morning in water

5 drops in the afternoon in water

no coffee 2 hours before


Traceminerals –

½ tsp in the morning with water

Detox-Kit (from Heel) for 4 weeks.
Benadryl and 5mg Melatonin nightly.

(not scripted).25mg anastrozole about once a week / when I feel effects of high E2.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suggest that you change your protocol to this:

phlebotomies with a goal of Hg~16
-----
Eat only--- meat, eggs, fish (1-2 pounds daily)(plus green vegetables and herbs as much as you want)
1000-1500mg Niacin plus 325mg enteric coated aspirin once/day
1200mg RedYeastRice
WobenzymN per label
Super Bifido Plus Probiotic Udo's Choice per label
4 gels/day---Now Foods, DHA-500, 500 DHA / 250 EPA
Country Life Betaine Hydrochloride with Pepsin -- 600 mg (try 4 tabs/meal, go lower if hot in stomach, go higher if not)
1/day Super Selenium Complex, 200 mcg 100 capsules from LEF.org
2 dropper-full/week Lugol's solution
2/day 00559 GAMMA E TOCOPHEROL/TOCOTRIENOL from LEF.org
50-100mg/day DHEA
5drops/day=10000iu Biotic Research Bio-D-Mulsion Forte, 1drop=2000iu Vit D
2000mg/day vit C
1/day Biotics Research - B12-2000 Lozenges 60L

drop all other supplements, helpers and detox, keep Melatonin

the idea being, so after 2-3 months you will get

Spectracell-5000, FIA™ Comprehensive Profile 5000
and
HairAnalysis

and use them to further fine tune your supplements.
if you can afford, fatty acids and (Metabolic analysis or ONE).
-------

T-shot=40mg=20units---->140mg/week
HCG-shot=250iu
arimidex=0.25mg

Working on EOD schedule, take (T+HCG+Arimidex) one day next day free
---
Cortef=HC=30mg/day(10+10+5+5), first dose at wakeup then every 4 hrs
Consider replacing Cortef=30mg with Medrol=6mg

Florinef---dose=????? plus salt
---
Cytomel-T3=75mg/day, split it any way you want, first take it every 4-8 hrs, but work toward once/day
---

//////////
.

[JanSz]

CrazyCrew
you have a high SHBG level (but luckily trending down)
and we often discuss about how much extra E2 should be allowed to account for additional amount of E2 bounded to higher that usual SHBG levels.

I have made a mental exercise on this, here:
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=72630&postcount=14

we may just rework numbers so it would fit your case (at a time).
---
"Ideal"
SHBG~20
TotalT=1100=600(Alb)+500(SHBG)
TotalE2=20=(Alb-E2)+(SHBG-E2)

SHBG=X (20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60)


newTotalT=600(Alb) + 500(SHBG)*(X/20)

newTotalE2=(TotalE2(20))*(TotalT(x)/TotalT(20)

SHBG=20, TotalT(20)=1100, TotalE2(20)=20

Above calculation is approximate.
On two right columns
first, assuming TT from left column figure resulting FreeT from chart
next, assuming SHBG and FreeT=350 get required TT
---


TotalTest---Test(Alb)------Test(SHBG)------SHBG------Total-E2----FreeT from chart---TT to get FreeT=350
1100 ------ 600 ----------- 500 ----------- 20 ----------- 20 ------ 320 ------ ------ ------ 1140
1225 ------ 600 ----------- 625 ----------- 25 ----------- 22 ------ 350 ------ ------ ------ 1220
1350 ------ 600 ----------- 750 ----------- 30 ----------- 25 ------ 370 ------ ------ ------ 1300
1475 ------ 600 ----------- 875 ----------- 35 ----------- 27 ------ 380 ------ ------ ------ 1380
1600 ------ 600 ----------- 1000 ---------- 40 ----------- 29 ------ 390 ------ ------ ------ 1450
1725 ------ 600 ----------- 1125 ---------- 45 ----------- 31 ------ 400 ------ ------ ------ 1540
1850 ------ 600 ----------- 1250 ---------- 50 ----------- 34 ------ 420 ------ ------ ------ 1610
1975 ------ 600 ----------- 1375 ---------- 55 ----------- 36 ------ 440 ------ ------ ------ 1700
2100 ------ 600 ----------- 1500 ---------- 60 ----------- 38 ------ 450 ------ ------ ------ 1775
2225 ------ 600 ----------- 1625 ---------- 65 ----------- 40 ------ xxx ------ ------ ------ 1850
2350 ------ 600 ----------- 1750 ---------- 70 ----------- 43 ------ xxx ------ ------ ------ 1920


....

There should be even better way to do this estimate, if I was smart enough to get the f.xls from Topazman (Bart) going.
Any takers?
-----------------------------

For convenience, I rewrite the table.

Having

desirable FreeT=350
certain SHBG level
to achieve desirable balance required E2 & TT are as per table below:
always desirable
DHT~80

SHBG -------- E2 ------ TotalTest
20 ----------- 20 ------ 1140
25 ----------- 22 ------ 1220
30 ----------- 25 ------ 1300
35 ----------- 27 ------ 1380
40 ----------- 29 ------ 1450
45 ----------- 31 ------ 1540
50 ----------- 34 ------ 1610
55 ----------- 36 ------ 1700
60 ----------- 38 ------ 1775
65 ----------- 40 ------ 1850
70 ----------- 43 ------ 1920

..
EDIT Jan4/10
Looking at dr Gordon's work

We may need much more E2 than we usually talk about.

Also

a lot of TotalTestosterone, dr Gordon does not hesitate if there is a need.

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?p=73365#post73365

also

DHEAs is critical.

...

[chilln]

Libido ok for past month. (had about a week of nightly and morning wood) Sleep not good, no energy/motivation, weight gain ( back up to 262 from Aug low of 238 )

Dec labs

TT free 813 (214 - 827)
Free T 23.66 (5.0 - 21.0 0
BAT 974
E sens 49 (3 - 70)
Esterone 87 (12 - 72)
SHGB 44 ( 13 - 71)

link to total labs: http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2379910700043179207CRwihy


Protocol since Dec 15 09

.26cc Test weekly.
.7 units HCG EOE = 250ui which totals 612ui a week.
1/2 graim Westhroid twice daily
vitamin D 10,000mg
B-complex Sublingual ---daily
500mg- SLO Niacin
super B-complex
Mutivitomin

Take Dr Wilsons HPA helper
10 drops in the morning in water

5 drops in the afternoon in water

no coffee 2 hours before


Traceminerals –

½ tsp in the morning with water

Detox-Kit (from Heel) for 4 weeks.
Benadryl and 5mg Melatonin nightly.

(not scripted).25mg anastrozole about once a week / when I feel effects of high E2.


Your high SHBG is not helping. That could be because your overall thyroid hormones levels (T3 and T4 and reverse T3) are so high, in order to leave you with enough T3.

But if you and your medical professional adviser agree to reduce the fraction of your thyroid hormone supps which is the T4 component, while leaving your T3, you should find your SHBG lowers a little more, freeing up more T.

Since T4 is the long term form of thyroid hormones, by reducing the overall T4 levels, you may notice that your T3 doesn't last as long through the day. In this case discuss with your medical professional adviser to switch to a slow release compounded thyroid hormone T3 formulation to help distribute the thyroid hormone over several hours.

###

The lethargy and weight gain is highly likely to be due to cortisol being less-than-optimum. Boosting cortisol is difficult when your body is marginal, but adequate cortisol is soooo necessary for energy metabolism.

Sometimes boosting T3 during your sleeping hours can help speed up your adrenal overnight recovery, boosting your natural cortisol levels the next day.

But if this keeps you wake, then the effect isn't working. In which case discuss with your medical professional adviser to supplement with some hydrocortisone. If you need to supplement long term, then perhaps switch to medrol and back to slow-release hydrocortisone when it becomes available in a few years.

###

Your low progesterone suggests low pregnenolone too, so discuss with your medical professional adviser to consider boosting pregnenolone, and monitor how much of that dumps into progesterone.

There is a very small percentage of males who actually do better after boosting progesterone, not pregnenolone, so also consider this if you find that pregnenolone supplementation boosts your progesterone without improving your overall symptoms.

###

I recommend a lot of 5-HTP to convert into seratonin during the day, to keep those carb cravings at bay. The carbs are not helping - ie: your lethargy symptoms are still lingering. You can do with less carbs.

If 5-HTP is not converting into enough seratonin, then switch to Cytolean V2. Only trial 1/2 a tab in the morning until you work out how much you need. Don't stay on Cytolean longer than "several weeks" (your decision when to bail out) because it hasn't been trialled long term in the human body.

###

The most important aspect of your hormone dysfunction is that you need to manage several hormones concurrently.

I understand that it's difficult, and many of us don't have the patience or money to do this.

But at this stage you're still not able to manage any of your hormones in isolation, because at this stage they're all problematic. You really do need to continue to discuss all your hormones in concert.

I'm aware this takes more time per post.

I'm aware that this costs more when obtaining labs.

I'm aware that this means your posts on this forum have to be longer than those of others.

But that's the price of having a body which has marginal hormones across-the-board.

###

If it's any consolation, I'm in the same boat. I have to artificially modulate all of my main hormones one way or another. Eventually you will be modulating all of the hormones you need to modulate, and then you'll be able to stabilize your therapy, and then you won't focus so much time on them, and you'll even relegate their management mostly into your subconscious, and you'll be freakin' healthy, and you'll be in a more relaxed place.

.

[crazycrew]

Put the new Thyroid from ERFA under your tongue it works for me better this way you don't have to worry about what you ate or the milk your had.

I'm not sure if its related but since taking the ERFA under my tongue I have been awakened 6 or 7 times each night; but go right back to sleep in a couple of minutes.

[crazycrew]

I'm not sure if its related but since taking the ERFA under my tongue I have been awakened 6 or 7 times each night; but go right back to sleep in a couple of minutes.


I didn't dose any yesterday and only woke up twice last night.

[crazycrew]

What does this tell you? (my cortisol test results) My medical adviser says the spike was because of the Westroid I was taking. (1mg a day) He has had me split that into two .5mg doses a day. A week after this test I ran out of westroid and took T3 for 2 weeks untill I got "Thyroid" (Canadian armor). I honestly haven't gotten any better.

Image wouldn't download. Here is a link http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp.



Brought this over from anouther forum


You look to me to be at about stage 4 or 5 read this link.
ASI Stage One (http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%201%20.html)
Your levels are low normal morning noon the jump way up and taking Thyroid meds don't do this. Stress dose this.

[JanSz]

crazycrew

stay on top of your medical advisors.

I edited,
added note to my post #189 on this thread.

dr Gordon adjusted TT of his high SHBG patient.

SHBG=40
TT=1853

That results in FreeT~475
just look at attached chart.

yours SHBG is little higher, do not over sleep on this.

Also, with out good level of E2 & DHEAs
Growth Hormone does not work.

Well, increasing of GH does not work when E2 & DHEAs are low, but note his observations.

...

[chilln]

I didn't dose any yesterday and only woke up twice last night.

and..



What does this tell you? (my cortisol test results) My medical adviser says the spike was because of the Westroid I was taking. (1mg a day) He has had me split that into two .5mg doses a day. A week after this test I ran out of westroid and took T3 for 2 weeks untill I got "Thyroid" (Canadian armor). I honestly haven't gotten any better.

Image wouldn't download. Here is a link
http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2919234390043179207mXLhkp



You start out too low on cortisol, when it seriously matters, and then you get a spike (too high, not good), and you end up OK.

My view is still as it was in my previous post, ie:
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=73317&postcount=190

Based on the positive feedback of thyroid hormone T3 on cortisol, you should be able to optimize your cortisol by ensuring that your thyroid hormone T3 supps are being distributed evenly through the day.

This is not as simple as it sounds, because T3 has a very short half life (a few hours), but perhaps using a slow release compounded thyroid hormone T3 supplement will give you a more sustained release of thyroid hormone T3, and a more sustained boost (with a lower peak) to your cortisol output.

The labs also confirm that your thyroid hormone T4 supps are not converting into anywhere hear enough T3, ie:
when you took the Westhroid, your cortisol rose (admittedly too high). This was not due to T4, because T4 is not the active hormone, and T4 doesn't convert into T3 immediately and then vanishes. In short, the cortisol rise was due to T3, not T4.

###

This doesn't address whether your adrenals can continue to deliver higher levels of cortisol. This lab only shows your adrenals have the ability to deliver a burst of cortisol. You'll only determine whether your adrenals can cope with providing a more sustained release of cortisol, if you're able to boost your thyroid hormone T3 levels in a sustained way, for long periods during the day.

.

[crazycrew]

crazycrew,

look at chart I posted, on the bottom of post #151

with your then SHBG=54
to get proper FreeT
you need TT~1750

your TT=1752
is exactly what you need.
no more, not much less.

this is the force that pushed your SHBG down
and latter you have had it 10 points lower.
this is force that is saving you from
Danazol ans Stanozolol.

You should have stayed on that (T & HCG) that got you there.

Now your SHBG went from 54--->44

If you lucky and get it down to 44--->20, we will have to reduce weekly T dose, but not sooner.
.....

Before you start using T3, you need to make sure that adrenals/thyroid support system is in place..........
.
.

When my was SHBG=54 I was dosing .70cc week



Not sure I agree with this. The SHGB came down on the last set of tests when I had reduced the test C to the last protocal of .35cc a week dosed EOD

What kind of adrenal/thyroid support is needed?

Donated blood this morning and had to get MD approval before I could donate because my iron was so high.

[JanSz]

When my was SHBG=54 I was dosing .70cc week



Not sure I agree with this. The SHGB came down on the last set of tests when I had reduced the test C to the last protocal of .35cc a week dosed EOD

What kind of adrenal/thyroid support is needed?

Donated blood this morning and had to get MD approval before I could donate because my iron was so high.

So you had SHBG=54
Started .70cc week
checked latter and you still had SHBG=54

is that correct?
====================================

You would get good support all around if you could do Spectracell-5000
with all bells and wistles (all boxes checked on form)
and the follow directions.

Plus 2 dropperfuls/week Lugols solution.

If not, look thru my previous posts (on the beginning of this thread).

...

[crazycrew]

So you had SHBG=54
Started .70cc week
checked latter and you still had SHBG=54

is that correct?
====================================


...

No... My SHBG was at 54 after a few months of .70cc a week.

It dropped to 44 after a couple of months @ .35cc a week

[JanSz]

No... My SHBG was at 54 after a few months of .70cc a week.

It dropped to 44 after a couple of months @ .35cc a week

It most likely dropped to 44 while on .70cc.
It is hanging there or may go back up when you will stay on (0.35cc)


I think that you should go to your old (0.70cc) dose.
I think that you should revisit testosterone dose size after your gets to SHBG~20
or even SHBG~15.

..

[crazycrew]

It most likely dropped to 44 while on .70cc.
It is hanging there or may go back up when you will stay on (0.35cc)


I think that you should go to your old (0.70cc) dose.
I think that you should revisit testosterone dose size after your gets to SHBG~20
or even SHBG~15.

..

I don't get this. I was on .70cc a week for 6 months or so. I had the test while dosing .70cc. The test showed SHGB @ 54. I reduced dosage to .35 cc a week for 2 months then had BW that showed the SHBG was 44. Did the higher dose have a delayed reaction?

[JanSz]

I don't get this. I was on .70cc a week for 6 months or so. I had the test while dosing .70cc. The test showed SHGB @ 54. I reduced dosage to .35 cc a week for 2 months then had BW that showed the SHBG was 44. Did the higher dose have a delayed reaction?

Just remember
higher TT pushes SHBG down.
lower E2 is conducive to lower SHBG.

Stay steady on whatewer (HCG & T) dose you are using.
Reassess after next blood test results.

Aim at SHBG~20

.

[crazycrew]

Had a little progress with the VA yesterday. I transferred to a local satellite office and the PA who examined my case (extensively) it turns out has adrenal/hormonal problems himself and was sympathetic to my condition. He did say that the government run VA has strict guidelines and wouldn't recognize nor treat HRT. Once a month injections of test is their accepted method of treatment. He is however going to see if he can dose my thyroid meds.
Considering my last VA MD freaked out and thought I was going to die and that she would not view any labs that she did not order; I will be optomistic but researved.
He was of the oppinion that Westroid/Amor were outdated and that Levothyroxine (Synthroid) is the best available.
He ordered blood work with a thyroid panel and I should get a copy in a few days.
Also is setting me up with an ENT Dr for possible nose surgery. (sleep apnea)
As well as getting a cyst removed from my inner thigh.

I have printed off copies of Dr Js TRT and HCG protocal and will take them to him today. We'll soon see how open to new ideas he really is.

[crazycrew]

Recienctly went to the VA The PA said he was ordering a Thyroid panel (yea right). All he ordered was a TSH. 12pm fasting Blood draw

TSH = --------1.47 jIU/mL ----------- 0.34 - 5.60
PSA ----------- 0.54 --------------- 0.00-4.00
Hemoglobin A1C ------ H ---------- 5.9------ 4.2-5.8
UR WBC -------------- H ---------- 2-2------ 0-2
UR Mucous ---------- Moderate
UR Amorphous Criytals --- Trace
Sodium --------------- normal
Anion Gap ----------- Low --------- 8 ---- 10-20

[JanSz]

Recienctly went to the VA The PA said he was ordering a Thyroid panel (yea right). All he ordered was a TSH. 12pm fasting Blood draw

TSH = --------1.47 jIU/mL ----------- 0.34 - 5.60
PSA ----------- 0.54 --------------- 0.00-4.00
Hemoglobin A1C ------ H ---------- 5.9------ 4.2-5.8
UR WBC -------------- H ---------- 2-2------ 0-2
UR Mucous ---------- Moderate
UR Amorphous Criytals --- Trace
Sodium --------------- normal
Anion Gap ----------- Low --------- 8 ---- 10-20

That mean that you are making a lots of your own T4, that is sure thing.

The rest is up in the air.

...
When you are making tons of your own T4,
but possibly missing T3

what is the sense
of
adding more T4?


...........

[crazycrew]

Latest labs in. Current "Medical advisor" has no advise. (can't afford more elaborate labs) So am on my own again. Hope I can get the meds I need.

Link to latest labs
http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2653465020043179207msgPmc

Link to Nov (extensive) labs
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2379910700043179207CRwihy

Tripled my Test dose starting today-- EOE dose = 200mg a week.


All suggestions appreciated I feel like crap.

[JanSz]

Latest labs in. Current "Medical advisor" has no advise. (can't afford more elaborate labs) So am on my own again. Hope I can get the meds I need.

Link to latest labs
http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2653465020043179207msgPmc

Link to Nov (extensive) labs
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2379910700043179207CRwihy

Tripled my Test dose starting today-- EOE dose = 200mg a week.


All suggestions appreciated I feel like crap.

All my previous suggestions are superseded by this post.
====================================

January 26/2010
With minimal resources available for more testing, having information as presented,
this is the best course of action that I can think of, but I am not a doctor.
==================================================
Ask your doctor for a standing script for therapeutic phlebotomies (TP). Use these words:
"Phlebotomize 500 cc once every two weeks if Hemoglobin Hgb=or >16.0 g/dL (48 % hematocrit)"
There is also version to take out only RBC and put all else back, it would be better.

And you make sure that they check your hemoglobin Hg (and/or) HCt first.
If Hb is lower, you come back in next two weeks and check again, no phlebotomy on that day.
http://www.irondisorders.org/phlebotomy

To flesh this part out some more, we need to get our friend Hemachromatosis on board, he is our resident expert on this subject.

BUT, it is not Hemachromatosis, just high Hct & Hg, per iron study in last test.
------------------------------------
Your insulin is high.
You have to seriously drop all high GI foods, PERIOD. (You are just two points on tryglicerides 148(<150) to be declared legal diabetic
Ask, if you do not know what high GI food is.
That should also help with weight control, now you are loosing ground in this area.
Until I stopped eating with my wife, I was not able to implement my diet plan.
Stop eating to gether with your lady, eat alone.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You must arrange for UNINTERUPTABLE source to supply:
Cytomel=HC(hydrocortisone) or Medrol
and
Cytomel-T3=generic-T3=T3
--
Use Cortef 30mg/day =(10mg/wakeup+10mg/4hrs latter + 5mg/4hrs latter + 5mg/4hrs latter)
or instead of Cortef use Medrol 6mg/day/wakeup, or 4mg/day/wakeup, or (4mg/wakeup + 2mg (4-8)hr latter)

Two weeks after you have been on steady Cortef-or-Medrol use 50mcg-Cytomel-T3 for two weeks, Then increase to 75mcg/day (25mcg/wakeup + 25mcg/(4-6)hrs latter + 25mcg/(4-6)hrs latter
Last T3 dose 4-6 hours before bed time.
Observe temperature, blood pressure any other complaints.

saliva test
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=73041&postcount=183
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Started Tue Jan 19/10 (keep going)
.3cc Test EOD =210mg/week
HCG=250iu/ EOD
1/2/2010 added .25 anastrozole 2 x weekly=0.5mg/week (keep going)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cholesterol control
2/day Red Yeast Rice 600mg capsules (or use scripted simvastatin 40 mg a day)(do not use both.
1500mg Vit B3 Niacin (plain, flushable)
Take vit B3 with 325mg enteric coated Aspirin)
2 gelcaps CoQ10 from lef.org (they have the right type)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inflamation control
after Fatty Acid Analysis this part will be revised
4/day Now Foods, DHA-500, 500 DHA / 250 EPA, 180 Softgels
2/day Borage Oil 1050mg, 240mg GLA, 120 Softgels, NOW Foods
Up to 4 tabs per meal (but less if creates heat in the stomach)Country Life Betaine Hydrochloride with Pepsin -- 600 mg - 250 Tablets
use per label (Mucos Wobenzym'N (800 tabs is less per tab) http://www.swansonvitamins.com/MCS003/ItemDetail?n=4294967187
use per label (Udo's Choice Super Bifido Plus Probiotic)

after Spectracell-5000 this part will get major rework
1/day (Vit A) Beta Carotene 25000 UI
2/day Vit B1 250mg
3/day Vit B2 200mg
Vit B3 (above)
3/day Vit B5 Panthothenic Acid 500mg
Vit B6- PYRIDOXAMINE, 100mg
1/day Vit B12-5mcg
2000mg/day Vit C
5 drops Biotic Research Bio-D-Mulsion Forte, 1drop=2000iu Vit D
2 gells/day Vit E----GAMMA E TOCOPHEROL/TOCOTRIENOL ////// http://www.lef.org:80/newshop/items/item00559.html?source=eNewsLetter2008Wk10-2&key=Body+Product
2 dropperfull/week Lugol's solution


blood testing:
When/if you loose your control over ether nightly erection or ability to have sex
Try to use Cialis, may not help.
Time to get
http://www.privatemdlabs.com/
Estradiol, Sensitive $68.49

When you have $$ get in this order
Spectracell-5000
FIA™ Comprehensive Profile 5000

Essential and Metaboliv Fatty Acid Analysis (RBC)

Above tests take precedence.
Year from now,
if you have some $$ we will design more tests.

About a year from now (or sooner) do
Sex Hormone binding Globulin, Serum $49.49

If it is higher than 20, keep your current (T & HCG) doses.
If it is (16-20), we have to reduce (aproprietly) dose of testosterone (150-175)mg/week.
If it is less than 16 we have to talk but in mean time keep 100mg/week
================================================== =====================================
Above are my suggestions.
Below is input I used.
================================================== =====================================
My (JanSz) previous analysis:
01-26-2009
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=31114&postcount=20
09-15-2009
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=53201&postcount=151
11-07-2009 Nov (extensive) labs
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=59107&postcount=152
1/4/2010
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=73022&postcount=181

Jan24/2010

Hemoglobin(Hg)=18.2 (12.5-17)
Hematocrit(Hct)=52.9 (36.0-50.0) need to do sufficient phlebotomies.(previous Hct=52.7)
Aim at Hg=(15-15.5)
There is a possibility that you may have your Hemoglobin measured right before phlebotomy, ask for it.
After a while you will learn your required frequency of phlebotomies.
At this moment knowing good range (Hg)=(12.5-17), ideal being 16 and undesirable being >17
assume that anytime you have Hg>17, give a one pint of blood today and come one week sooner for next phlebotomy.
When time comes that you read Hg~16, give a blood that day but wait another week with next phlebotomy.
The procedure where they take two helpings of RBC and put your plasma back might be a consideration, ask your doc for script with that included.

Sodium=136(135-145) you may need some (Florinef+ sea salt), please contact Drew for some details on how to.(previous sodium=137 you are getting worst)
Potassium=4.7(3.5-5.2) (previous 4.2)

previous test, renin low, aldosterone ok
renin,plasma=1.19(upright 1.31-3.95)
Aldosterone=11.4(1-16)

Cholesterol, total=206
LDL=154(0-99) are you eating Red Yeast Rice????????????
HDL=22(>39) are you eating Vit B3, Niacin (+ CoQ10), ??????????????

Hemoglobin A1c=5.8 (good, but still refrain from high GI food) (previous 5.6 getting worse)
Glucose=91(65-99)
Insulin=14.7 (0.0-24.9), actually I think it is rather high, eat few or none high GI food, previously insulin=8.8

CRP, cardiac=8.44 (0-3.00) it is high, I do not know why. It is inflamation marker. Lets see in supplements, what fats are you eating, whatewer you eat it is not enough or not the right kind. Lets study this.
Previous
CRP=4.5(0-4.9)

TSH=1.29
FreeT4=1.32(0.82-1.77)

previous
rt3=240(90-350)

DHEAs=118 could use much more (previous 120 about same)
TestosteroneTotal=684 no match for SHBG, double it (previous TT=813)
SHBG=35.6 it is falling, good, previous 44)

Estradiol-E2=35 (action, either reduce by 50iu your HCG-shots, or do your T-shots every day, or add 0.2mg Liquidex EOD), OR if nipples and wood ok, leave it alone (dr Gordon likes your current E2 level)

------------------------------------------------------------------
Protocol since nov 15 09

.26cc Test weekly=52mg/week average
HCG EOD = 250iu
60 mg thyroid
vitamin D 10,000mg
B-complex Sublingual ---daily
super B-complex
Mutivitomin

Starting Tue Jan 19/10
.3cc Test EOD =210mg/week
HCG=250iu/ EOD

1/2/2010) added .25 anastrozole 2 x weekly=0.5mg/week
due to (Lost most sex drive. No morning wood. weight gain of 35 lbs in 3 months. No energy.)
on Jan24/10 reported: Have actually felt better last couple of days. (good sex this morning :<)

====================================
have on hand a nearly full bottle of L-T3 from Ag.

Vit C 2000mg
Meletonan 5mg
Red Yeast Rice 600 mg
DHEA 50 mg
D-3 5000IU
Lecithin COncentrate 400mg
Natural Vitimine C ( with rose hips)
Beta Carotene 25000 UI
=======================================
I was scripted simvastatin 40 mg a day.

Edit, 1/29/10
added Lugol's
edit, 1/31/10, 2 pts on triglycerides to become legal diabetic

[crazycrew]

With such a gargantuan effort on your part JanSz, it's clear that you truely care about the health of others.

I will be seeing local MD Wednesday and have sent him copies of latest BW with a request for the labs my medical advisor wanted. I know he has ordered some of them before so I am hoping for a good appointment. I will also edit and print relative info from this to take with me as well.

I have an appointment with the VA also on Wednesday afternoon in OKC with dermatology to have the growth (lump) on my inner thigh removed.

On the 11th of next month I have an appointment with the VA for a cat scan for either my pituitary gland or nose canal (Sleep apnea). I'm not sure which since I received the appointment in the mail with no explanation.

The only thing is that I had such great success from our original protocol that I hard to believe that the speed in which I went downhill would be from the apnea.

I'm feeling considerably better since increasing my dosage. I've been able to leave the house and take care of a few things, were before I hardly left the couch.

I feel guilty taking so much of your time and want you to know you are appreciated more than you might think. Thanks Wayne

[chilln]

Latest labs in. Current "Medical advisor" has no advise. (can't afford more elaborate labs) So am on my own again. Hope I can get the meds I need.

Link to latest labs
http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2653465020043179207msgPmc

Link to Nov (extensive) labs
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2379910700043179207CRwihy

Tripled my Test dose starting today-- EOE dose = 200mg a week.


All suggestions appreciated I feel like crap.


Boosting T further will boost your T levels, but you may be converting excess T into E2 already, which may be why you're not noticing the benefits of higher levels of T.

You do need to get your total T, total E2 and SHBG measured together. T and SHBG isn't even the minimum.

Perhaps let the VA monitor and manage the T side, and find a different doc to monitor and manage the E2 ?

.

[JanSz]

With such a gargantuan effort on your part JanSz, it's clear that you truely care about the health of others.

I will be seeing local MD Wednesday and have sent him copies of latest BW with a request for the labs my medical advisor wanted. I know he has ordered some of them before so I am hoping for a good appointment. I will also edit and print relative info from this to take with me as well.

I have an appointment with the VA also on Wednesday afternoon in OKC with dermatology to have the growth (lump) on my inner thigh removed.

On the 11th of next month I have an appointment with the VA for a cat scan for either my pituitary gland or nose canal (Sleep apnea). I'm not sure which since I received the appointment in the mail with no explanation.

The only thing is that I had such great success from our original protocol that I hard to believe that the speed in which I went downhill would be from the apnea.

I'm feeling considerably better since increasing my dosage. I've been able to leave the house and take care of a few things, were before I hardly left the couch.

I feel guilty taking so much of your time and want you to know you are appreciated more than you might think. Thanks Wayne

If you were able to comply what I have written,
then find solution for your sleep apnea,

loosing weight would become smooth sailing (yeah right).

Then my biggest concern would be:

your high insulin (for sure)
low sodium (I think)

Reason why you felt good than bad (now better again on (again) higher T doses, I think is in

insufficient adrenals and thyroid.

Make real sure that (once you start it) you do not run out of
Cortef/HC or Medrol and T3
Always plan ahead about your supplies.

High Hg & Hct does not help either.
They are known causes of fatigue.
================================================== ======
Part of a reason for your very low HDL is lack of exercise (look at attached table, it is on there).

///

[JanSz]

Hemochromatosis (HHC)

There are many symptoms, the most common of which include chronic fatigue, arthritic pain in joints, loss of libido or impotence, abdominal pain, and shortness of breath.

People at risk include males of northern European descent, those with a family history of premature death by heart attack, liver disease, diabetes, and arthritis, and post-menopausal women with the same ancestry and family history listed above.
=================
I do not think you have it,
but you still need phebotomies that are frequent enough to keep your Hg in check.


http://www.bloodnj.org/hemo01.htm

Hemochromatosis (HHC)

Blood Banking and Patient Treatment:

The most effective way to decrease the amount of iron in the body is to remove red blood cells that naturally contain large amounts of iron. People with HHC will often need regular phlebotomies to remove the excess of iron.

This is often done in a doctor's office or at a blood center. In the past, the blood was collected and then destroyed. Because of a change in guidelines by the Food and Drug Administration, the Blood Center of New Jersey may now test and process these donations and, in many cases, use the blood for transfusions to patients in need.

This is a win-win situation. It is a rare instance when the treatment for one disease will save the life of someone with another disease.

=======================================
This is in NJ, possibly also in Texas.

=========
What are the cost?
There is no cost to you regardless of whether or not your blood is used for a patient.
http://www.bloodnj.org/hemo-q&a.htm
================================================== ===================

[crazycrew]

Just a note. Had my best day in months. Arose early, morning sex, busy all day, no afternoon crash. Don't know why just glad to have it.

Fairly close to the protocol I started a year ago, so now I just wait for another down hill slide.

I'm getting ahead of myself. And after months of crap, one good day does not a success make. Still, happy right now. I just though I'd share.

[chilln]

Just a note. Had my best day in months. Arose early, morning sex, busy all day, no afternoon crash. Don't know why just glad to have it.

Fairly close to the protocol I started a year ago, so now I just wait for another down hill slide.

I'm getting ahead of myself. And after months of crap, one good day does not a success make. Still, happy right now. I just though I'd share.


Most likely you slept well and thus had good cortisol reserves.

[crazycrew]

Most likely you slept well and thus had good cortisol reserves.

You could be right, I'm sure my cortisol desperatly needs addressing. But, I awoke a couple of times (right back to sleep) and the old lady said I was "thrashing about". I did sleep 8 hours. (2 melatonin 5mg and Diphenhydramine HCI 25 mg
Just got up and feel great this morning. Slept 7 straight hours. Again, 2 melatonin 5mg and Diphenhydramine HCI 25 mg

[JanSz]

Just a note. Had my best day in months. Arose early, morning sex, busy all day, no afternoon crash. Don't know why just glad to have it.

Fairly close to the protocol I started a year ago, so now I just wait for another down hill slide.

I'm getting ahead of myself. And after months of crap, one good day does not a success make. Still, happy right now. I just though I'd share.

Hurrah!!

After you have been for a while on a protocol that you have been using a year ago,

your worst (known) to correct:

High hemoglobin
high insulin
high cholesterol

.........
Good night sleep ending with morning sex is an excellent way to start a day.

Hopefully many more to follow.

Your relatively low sodium may have to do with it.
Have you eat something salty last night?
================================================== =
Diphenhydramine hydrochloride (pronounced /ˌdaɪfɛnˈhaɪdrəmiːn/) is a first generation antihistamine mainly used to treat allergies and may act as an antiemetic, sedative and hypnotic. It is produced and marketed under the trade name Benadryl by McNeil-PPC (a division of Johnson & Johnson) in the U.S. and Canada, and Dimedrol in other countries. It is also found in the name-brand products Nytol, Unisom, and Advil PM though some Unisom products contain doxylamine instead. It is available as an over-the-counter (OTC) or prescribed HCl injectable

[JanSz]

1 "Source Naturals Melatonin, Time Release, 3 mg, Tablets, 240 tablets" $15.20

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Source+Naturals+Melatonin,+Time+Release,+ 3+mg,+Tablets,+240+tablets&x=0&y=0


Recently dr John announced that 15mg SL melatonin is the way to go.
I got this one, not sure if it will qualify as SL.


................

[JanSz]

Discuss this with your doc.

Wonder if insurance would pay for this instruments?


Portable Hemoglobin testing.

http://www.cliawaived.com/web/Hemoglobin_Testing.htm
=================================================

STAT-Site M HgB Test Meter + 100 test cards
STA-900900-PROMO-100
(1 meter + 100 tests)
$249.95

=================================================
STAT-Site M Hgb 200 Test Cards
STA-900900-PROMO-200
PROMO OFFER INCLUDES 1 Stat-site M meter, 2 boxes of 100 test cards.
$349.95
=================================================
look at links to:
More Info
Product Insert
Test Instructions
Sales Brochure

=============
http://www.medicalresources.com/pdf/statsitemhgb.pdf

STAT-Site®MHgb
Power in the Palm
of Your Hand—
Truly Portable
Hemoglobin Testing
======================================

[JanSz]

Portable home checking of Hg
+
small digital scale (to weight leeches before and after)
+
leeches

may provide home made and probably gentler way of controlling Hg

================================================== =====
Medicinal Leech (Hirudo Medicinalis)
http://www.leeches.biz/

Leeches - Pricing and Shipping Information
http://www.leeches.biz/buy-leeches.htm

About Leeches
How to take care of leeches
Leech Therapy
Safety and Adverse Effects of Leech Therapy
Bloodsuckers hit the medical comeback trail - BBC News
When modern medicine needs some help...
U.S. approves leeches for therapy
Hirudotherapy
Leeches and a History of Medicine
Therapeutic properties
Leech Facts
Contact us


http://www.leeches.biz/leech-therapy.htm
Leech Therapy:
How much blood does a patient lose during the treatment?

Leeches (European specie Hirudo Medicinalis) can consume between 5 and 15 ml of blood – 4-6 times their body weight in a single feeding. An American specie Macrobdella Decora can consume 10 times less blood than Hirudo Medicinalis. That's why only the European specie is used in medicine. Generally leech therapists use up to 10 leeches so the patient can lose up to 150 ml of blood during the treatment
With 8 leeches the blutverlust for the patient is including to the Nachbluten with approx. 200 to 350 ml blood. "a small leech sucks 2g - the quantity doubles itself 3 g, more largely to 30 g, on average by the postoperative hemorrhage. Generally one counts on an average value of 20 - is limited 30 g total blood loss per leech and to setting 4 - 12 copies in a meeting "


7. Monitor leeches until they fill with blood (10-20 minutes). Usually the leech falls off itself (if not use salt. Leeches do not like salt and will drop off)

[crazycrew]

I'll look at your posts later JanSz. Just now got back from a 350 mile round trip to VA hospital in OKC. Saw Local MD before I left.. Another good day. It's 8PM and I started at 4AM. Felt good all day, no crash. I am understandably tired so; another hurray!!!!

[JanSz]

I'll look at your posts later JanSz. Just now got back from a 350 mile round trip to VA. Saw Local MD before I left.. Another good day. It's 8PM and I started at 4AM. Felt good all day, no crash. I am understandably tired so; another hurray!!!!

Good day sounds good.

Keep taking testosterone and do not change your dose or frequency until your

SHBG<20

You do not want to know your TT.

..
Not sure how you can make 700 miles in one day and be able to check on computer.

4Am-10Pm, 18 hrs on the go.

Next time you complain, I will ask for details.
..

[crazycrew]

Good day sounds good.


..
Not sure how you can make 700 miles in one day and be able to check on computer.


..

No, not likely. I'm fast but not that fast,,LOL-- 175mi one way = 350 miles total round trip. (80mph on Okla turnpikes)




Next time you complain, I will ask for details.
..

Not sure what you mean here. You sure you can ask that many questions? I have tended to b*tch alot lately. :cuss:
__________________

[josh]

Another good day. It's 8PM and I started at 4AM. Felt good all day, no crash. I am understandably tired so; another hurray!!!!

Envious, contrats.

[crazycrew]

Hurrah!!

After you have been for a while on a protocol that you have been using a year ago,

your worst (known) to correct:

High hemoglobin
high insulin
high cholesterol
.........

Your relatively low sodium may have to do with it.
Have you eat something salty last night?



Local MD/PA said at least 3 times that my insulin was ok (didn't have labs in front of me)
Freaked about 10,000IU a day of D-3. Reccomends no more than 10k a week.
I requested she do the following tests and try to get the labs and meds covered by insurance.
They looked up the prices on the labs


total t4
ft3
total t3
reverse t-3
TSH is a waste of a test on thyroid
shbg
total Test
e2 SENSITIVE this one they did was useless.
CMP
dhea-s
CBC
vitamin D 25 oh
crp

They said the total would be 262.00 if my insurance didn't cover it.
I was just about to have the needle inserted when the PA came in and told me that the price quoted was
what Medicad would have been billed. My cost that the insurance company would be bill was over 1100.00.
So no bloodwork today.



She wants to have me see a hematologist.
I will donate at Red Cross every 6 weeks and there is a plasma center in town that I will use in between the RC donations and get paid for it.
The leaches would be a last resort I think. Got any tape worms? (good for weight loss :)

Cholesterol
should come down drastically soon. I have no problem dieting when I feel good. I guess I have a psychological issue with food because if I feel "bad" I've always indulged with "comfort foods". Would account for the over all 50lb weight gain this past 2 yrs.
__________________

As far as salty foods I did have quite a few cashiews (w/sea salt) and peanuts.

------------------------------------------

Another good morning. Just noticed I haven't "craved" my morning coffee it get me going.

[JanSz]

Local MD/PA said at least 3 times that my insulin was ok (didn't have labs in front of me)
Freaked about 10,000IU a day of D-3. Reccomends no more than 10k a week.
I requested she do the following tests and try to get the labs and meds covered by insurance.
They looked up the prices on the labs


total t4
ft3
total t3
reverse t-3
TSH is a waste of a test on thyroid
shbg
total Test
e2 SENSITIVE this one they did was useless.
CMP
dhea-s
CBC
vitamin D 25 oh
crp

They said the total would be 262.00 if my insurance didn't cover it.
I was just about to have the needle inserted when the PA came in and told me that the price quoted was
what Medicad would have been billed. My cost that the insurance company would be bill was over 1100.00.
So no bloodwork today.



She wants to have me see a hematologist.
I will donate at Red Cross every 6 weeks and there is a plasma center in town that I will use in between the RC donations and get paid for it.
The leaches would be a last resort I think. Got any tape worms? (good for weight loss :)

Cholesterol
should come down drastically soon. I have no problem dieting when I feel good. I guess I have a psychological issue with food because if I feel "bad" I've always indulged with "comfort foods". Would account for the over all 50lb weight gain this past 2 yrs.
__________________

As far as salty foods I did have quite a few cashiews (w/sea salt) and peanuts.

------------------------------------------

Another good morning. Just noticed I haven't "craved" my morning coffee it get me going.

We are working on very restricted $$$$.
I have given you list of tests.
I have given you list of supplements and medicines.

Consider complying with that first.
If you have leftover $$, let me know, we will figure how to use them in most efficient way.

======================================
If I had to pick only one of your problems,
I would pick your insulin level.

Insulin=14.7 (0.0-24.9)

First,
I do not know where they come up with 24.9
On my tests I had 17

then
on 8/27/08
when I was in a bad shape,
and my doctor was attempting to throw me out and go to see endo
I had
fasting insulin Insulin=8
8 is bad (you have 14.7)

then two months latter, when for two months I have not seen ANY high GI food
my fasting insulin=2

Look at attached picture.
It was not easy to get from left to right.

Think of ways to improve your will power and compliance.
I know first hand, it is not easy.

..........................

[crazycrew]

Yes I wonder who started the trend of using NT with cytomel and told that it was a bad idea LOL I have been using this combination for about 2.5 years now is posting it on the boards its standard protocol :thumbup1:

Then why did you blow me off today when I asked about adding cytomel considering my cotisol was so low? You said to "Just make adjustments with testosterone"

[hardasnails1973]

Changing to many variables at a time can cause a chain reactions. Your feeling good that most important part. Number chasing is not going to make on feel better and honestly. Every one is different. The whole idea behind TRT is making the person feel good then start fine tuning everything else. Most HRT dr's through shit against the wall and hope it sticks. Layered approach is the most logical safe and monitored approach. Labs are just a diagnostic tool if the clinical reponse is patient feeling good then do not screw it. When I hear a person "I'm feeling like my old self" that tells any one with a half a brain do not screw with anything to drastic. I have seen people that are feeling great then all of sudden their labs come back then they fall to pot. These people may have a somatoform disorder. You have high shbg why you respond to higher T levels so good and why you feeling better. This is the biggest mistake Dr's make then start TRT and TSH goes up. Then next blood test they give them thyroid, but this just a way the body is compensating for greater metaabolism. The Dr just needs to monitor and watch to see if it comes down after 12 weeks of TRT if not then adjust it. IF its low from the start then it has to be adjusted then before TRT.

[crazycrew]

Well I felt great for 5 or 6 months of being on a protocal that basicly mirrors what I am doing now then I crashed quickly. I lowered the doses twice and added supplicents but I kept going downhill. Now after 2 months of drasticly lower doses, and 5 months of feeling bad, I am back to former protocal and feel good again. My concern is what caused the last crash? I would rather address it now than go thru this cycle of feel good for 6 months then bad for 6 months again.
I know,,, need more tests..

[JanSz]

I have aggressively changed my diet and have lost 12lbs this past 3 weeks.

I felt great for 5 or 6 months of being on a protocal that basicly mirrors what I am doing now then I crashed quickly. I lowered the doses twice and added supplicents but I kept going downhill. Now after 2 months of drasticly lower doses, and 5 months of feeling bad, I am back to former protocal and feel good again. My concern is what caused the last crash? I would rather address it now than go thru this cycle of feel good for 6 months then bad for 6 months again.
I know,,, need more tests..

Before one starts testing he have to have some idea of what he is fishing for.
You may newer find reason for your past experience.
My guess, it have to do with initial big drop in SHBG and body wide re-balancing. You will continue going thru this process if you are able to follow what we discuss. Short term may be easy, long term following is often difficult.

From my pov, the best you can do is:

work (aggressively) on your diet
work (aggressively) on your phlebotomies
work on your sleep
do something aerobic for 20 min/day or better
hug & kiss your lady
stick to the protocol I wrote for you
pray and hope for good luck
get Spectracell when you are able, so you can eat supplements, that are better aligned with what you actually need.

..

...
Edit, I changed my mind,
put phlebotomies as #1

..

[crazycrew]

Changing to many variables at a time can cause a chain reactions. Your feeling good that most important part. Number chasing is not going to make on feel better and honestly. Every one is different. The whole idea behind TRT is making the person feel good then start fine tuning everything else. Most HRT dr's through shit against the wall and hope it sticks. Layered approach is the most logical safe and monitored approach. Labs are just a diagnostic tool if the clinical reponse is patient feeling good then do not screw it. When I hear a person "I'm feeling like my old self" that tells any one with a half a brain do not screw with anything to drastic. I have seen people that are feeling great then all of sudden their labs come back then they fall to pot. These people may have a somatoform disorder. You have high shbg why you respond to higher T levels so good and why you feeling better. This is the biggest mistake Dr's make then start TRT and TSH goes up. Then next blood test they give them thyroid, but this just a way the body is compensating for greater metaabolism. The Dr just needs to monitor and watch to see if it comes down after 12 weeks of TRT if not then adjust it. IF its low from the start then it has to be adjusted then before TRT.
---
Again I felt great for 5 or 6 months of being on a protocal that basically mirrors what I am doing now then I crashed quickly
---
I'm not chasing numbers I want to know what went wrong. Why would repeating what failed the first time have any different outcome?
Considering that after 5 months on this protocal doing good then crash quickly, one would have to assume that the same thing will happen. So do I wait till I crash or try to prevent it? I would think that if nothing else I should get another corisol test, even though I have a recent one, and supplement with whatever is needed, if test indicates that I need to do so.

----------

Your high SHBG is not helping. That could be because your overall thyroid hormones levels (T3 and T4 and reverse T3) are so high, in order to leave you with enough T3.

But if you and your medical professional adviser agree to reduce the fraction of your thyroid hormone supps which is the T4 component, while leaving your T3, you should find your SHBG lowers a little more, freeing up more T.

Since T4 is the long term form of thyroid hormones, by reducing the overall T4 levels, you may notice that your T3 doesn't last as long through the day. In this case discuss with your medical professional adviser to switch to a slow release compounded thyroid hormone T3 formulation to help distribute the thyroid hormone over several hours.

###

The lethargy and weight gain is highly likely to be due to cortisol being less-than-optimum. Boosting cortisol is difficult when your body is marginal, but adequate cortisol is soooo necessary for energy metabolism.

Sometimes boosting T3 during your sleeping hours can help speed up your adrenal overnight recovery, boosting your natural cortisol levels the next day.
But if this keeps you wake, then the effect isn't working. In which case discuss with your medical professional adviser to supplement with some hydrocortisone. If you need to supplement long term, then perhaps switch to medrol and back to slow-release hydrocortisone when it becomes available in a few years.


###

The most important aspect of your hormone dysfunction is that you need to manage several hormones concurrently.

I understand that it's difficult, and many of us don't have the patience or money to do this.

But at this stage you're still not able to manage any of your hormones in isolation, because at this stage they're all problematic. You really do need to continue to discuss all your hormones in concert.

I'm aware this takes more time per post.

I'm aware that this costs more when obtaining labs.

I'm aware that this means your posts on this forum have to be longer than those of others.

But that's the price of having a body which has marginal hormones across-the-board.

###

If it's any consolation, I'm in the same boat. I have to artificially modulate all of my main hormones one way or another. Eventually you will be modulating all of the hormones you need to modulate, and then you'll be able to stabilize your therapy, and then you won't focus so much time on them, and you'll even relegate their management mostly into your subconscious, and you'll be freakin' healthy, and you'll be in a more relaxed place.

.
################
That mean that you are making a lots of your own T4, that is sure thing.

The rest is up in the air.

...
When you are making tons of your own T4,
but possibly missing T3

what is the sense
of
adding more T4?

I would drop supplementation with T4 (close to forever) and use Cytomel-T3 only.

First goal
TT in upper 1/3
rT3 in lower half

after you are there,
if you can afford (the luxury) of having some TT4
tweak T3 supplementation so your
TSH>0
that will induce your own, natural, T4 production.

It is nice and comfortable to have some TT4
but TT3 & rT3 are first priority.
--------


...........

#############




and..




You start out too low on cortisol, when it seriously matters, and then you get a spike (too high, not good), and you end up OK.

My view is still as it was in my previous post, ie:
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=73317&postcount=190

Based on the positive feedback of thyroid hormone T3 on cortisol, you should be able to optimize your cortisol by ensuring that your thyroid hormone T3 supps are being distributed evenly through the day.

This is not as simple as it sounds, because T3 has a very short half life (a few hours), but perhaps using a slow release compounded thyroid hormone T3 supplement will give you a more sustained release of thyroid hormone T3, and a more sustained boost (with a lower peak) to your cortisol output.

The labs also confirm that your thyroid hormone T4 supps are not converting into anywhere hear enough T3, ie:
when you took the Westhroid, your cortisol rose (admittedly too high). This was not due to T4, because T4 is not the active hormone, and T4 doesn't convert into T3 immediately and then vanishes. In short, the cortisol rise was due to T3, not T4.

###

This doesn't address whether your adrenals can continue to deliver higher levels of cortisol. This lab only shows your adrenals have the ability to deliver a burst of cortisol. You'll only determine whether your adrenals can cope with providing a more sustained release of cortisol, if you're able to boost your thyroid hormone T3 levels in a sustained way, for long periods during the day.

.

[crazycrew]

Just a note. Had my best day in months. Arose early, morning sex, busy all day, no afternoon crash. Don't know why just glad to have it.

Fairly close to the protocol I started a year ago, so now I just wait for another down hill slide.

I'm getting ahead of myself. And after months of crap, one good day does not a success make. Still, happy right now. I just though I'd share.

I just don't know anymore. 4 days of great, 1 day of good, then today, great this morning but bad afternoon crash. I just got up from a (can't help I gotta) nap.


Maybe tommorrow. I'll give it a few days to see if there is a patern

[JanSz]

I just don't know anymore. 4 days of great, 1 day of good, then today, great this morning but bad afternoon crash. I just got up from a (can't help I gotta) nap.


Maybe tommorrow. I'll give it a few days to see if there is a patern

crazycrew

what is the story with your phlebotomy.

I feel that that is your priority #1

well, you have few #1 priorities.

......

[crazycrew]

crazycrew

what is the story with your phlebotomy.

I feel that that is your priority #1

well, you have few #1 priorities.

......




Donated blood on the 16th (2 weeks ago) and was going in this next friday (feb 6) to donate plasma.
Did you read ?
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=77609&postcount=228

[JanSz]

Donated blood on the 16th (2 weeks ago) and was going in this next friday (feb 6) to donate plasma.
Did you read ?
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=77609&postcount=228

Before taking blood did they measured Hg, Hct?
What did they measured?

I was looking thru your tests, do not remember ferritin being ever measured.
You did iron study, I think you do not have hemachromatosis.

.....

[crazycrew]

Before taking blood did they measured Hg, Hct?
What did they measured?
I was looking thru your tests, do not remember ferritin being ever measured.
You did iron study, I think you do not have hemachromatosis.

.....

Not sure. Whatever the Red Cross measures.

last lab test 1/20/10,, 3 days after blood donation,

Hemoglobin ---18.2---------------12.5-17.0
Hematocrit---52.9----------------36.0-50.0
RBC------------ 5.68 -------------410-5.60

[JanSz]

Not sure. Whatever the Red Cross measures.

last lab test 1/20/10,, 3 days after blood donation,

Hemoglobin ---18.2---------------12.5-17.0
Hematocrit---52.9----------------36.0-50.0
RBC------------ 5.68 -------------410-5.60

That would be high, you are not out of the woods.
My guess is that your problems are heavily related to all this.
(Recent higher testosterone dose is not helping in this department, but do not stop taking testosterone.

Do not skip next friday (feb 6).

It would be good idea if you could make them check something before taking blood.
Hg, hct & ferritin would be ideal if you could talk the into it.

..

[crazycrew]

That would be high, you are not out of the woods.
My guess is that your problems are heavily related to all this.
(Recent higher testosterone dose is not helping in this department, but do not stop taking testosterone.

Do not skip next friday (feb 6).

It would be good idea if you could make them check something before taking blood.
Hg, hct & ferritin would be ideal if you could talk the into it.

..

Will do.
--
My lady is going in tomorrow to have a breast scan. Former breast cancer surviver, she has found a lump. Pre existing condition made it impossible for her to get any insurance.. But thats for anouther post. All prayers appreciated.

[canthavetoomanytoys]

It would be good idea if you could make them check something before taking blood.
Hg, hct & ferritin would be ideal if you could talk the into it.
..
I believe the normal test run is hematocrit - temporary blood donor sites are limited to available test equipment.

[JanSz]

Will do.
--
My lady is going in tomorrow to have a breast scan. Former breast cancer surviver, she has found a lump. Pre existing condition made it impossible for her to get any insurance.. But thats for anouther post. All prayers appreciated.

I will pray for her.

---
Rhein 24hr urine analysis

dr Gonzales and his enzyme teraphy

or at least tons of enzymes (WobenzynM)

http://www.drkelley.info/articles/archive.php?artid=320

http://www.drkelley.com/CANLIVER55.html

---

not sure about hair analysis and diet as prescribed by one of the (I think) 12 types.

http://health.hairanalysiskit.com/health-laboratories.htm

http://www.optimalhealthnetwork.com/How-Does-Metabolic-Typing-Work-s/417.htm
.................

[crazycrew]

Rhein 24hr urine analysis-.................

For me???
--

dr Gonzales and his enzyme teraphy
..


-]

Like his mentor, William Donald Kelley, Gonzalez's treatment method has been "rejected" by the "medical establishment".[1] Gonzalez has been characterized as a quack and fraud by other doctors[3] and health fraud watchdog groups, and in 1994 was reprimanded and placed on two years' probation by the New York state medical board for "departing from accepted practice".[1][3] Forced to submit to psychological examinations and undergo retraining,[3] Gonzalez was given two years of probation with a stipulation that he undergo retraining and do 200 hours of community service, which he completed satisfactorily.[8] He is currently fully licensed to practice in New York.[9]

Gonzalez has lost two malpractice lawsuits. In 1997, a New York court found Gonzalez "negligent" for his cancer treatment;[10][11] according to news reports, Gonzalez "had to pay $2.5 million in damages to a patient he wrongly claimed to have cured" of cancer.[12][13] The former patient had been diagnosed with uterine cancer but "Gonzalez discouraged her from following through on her cancer specialist's advice, instead recommending dietary supplements and frequent coffee enemas".[14] The patient had refused both standard treatment and an experimental protocol, but after the cancer spread to her spine, she discontinued Gonzalez's treatment and received chemotherapy and external beam radiation. Sometime in this period, she began having problems with her eyesight, back and hip, and she eventually became blind.[13][15] In 2000, Gonzalez was found partly liable (49%) in the death of a patient with Hodgkin's disease and ordered to pay $282,000 in damages, due to his use of an unproven cancer screening method instead of standard cancer testing.[16]

The American Cancer Society notes that there is "no convincing scientific evidence that [the Gonzalez treatment] is effective in treating cancer" and that some portions of the treatment may be harmful. A review article from the Journal of Clinical Gastroenterology is cited that notes the clinical efficacy of coffee enemas has not been proven and the therapy is associated with severe adverse effects previously described in a few case reports. Gonzalez's study published in Nutrition and Cancer in 1999 was criticized by an expert in integrative oncology research methods for its small sample size, selection bias, and failure to account for confounders.[17]

[edit] Support for research efforts

[crazycrew]

Latest protocal 01/17/10
.25cc Test EOD
.10cc HCG EOD
.25 Amastrozole E3D

Daily
-------
Simvastatin 40mg
Dhea 50mg
Super B-complex
B-Complex Sublighual
Natural C 100mg
Garlic 1000mg
D-3 5000 iu
Fish Oil 1000mg
Beta caroteve 25000iu

Nightly
--------
Melatonin 10mg
Benadryl 25mg
-------
Every 3rd week.
Blood donation.

========

I felt great for 5 or 6 months of being on a protocal that basically mirrors what I am doing now, then I crashed quickly
---
I'm not chasing numbers, I want to know what went wrong. Why would repeating what failed the first time have a different outcome?
--
After 5 months on this protocal I was doing great but then crash quickly, one would have to assume that the same thing will happen. So do I wait till I crash or try to prevent it? I would think that if nothing else I should get another corisol test, even though I have a recent one, and supplement with whatever is needed, if test indicates that I need to do so.
---
So in order of importance; What tests should I consider?

[JanSz]

For me???
--

NO, that is for your lady.
I guess we could have separate thread for you lady, so we do not get confused.

Dr Gonzales, he treats (with some success) people that are hanging by last straw.
If you want to go in that direction, you may want to start with Suzan Somers lattest book, Knockout.
-]

Like his mentor, William Donald Kelley, Gonzalez's treatment method has been "rejected" by the "medical establishment".[1] Gonzalez has been characterized as a quack and fraud by other doctors[3] and health fraud watchdog groups, and in 1994 was reprimanded and placed on two years' probation by the New York state medical board for "departing from accepted practice".[1][3] Forced to submit to psychological examinations and undergo retraining,[3] Gonzalez was given two years of probation with a stipulation that he undergo retraining and do 200 hours of community service, which he completed satisfactorily.[8] He is currently fully licensed to practice in New York.[9]

Gonzalez has lost two malpractice lawsuits. In 1997, a New York court found Gonzalez "negligent" for his cancer treatment;[10][11] according to news reports, Gonzalez "had to pay $2.5 million in damages to a patient he wrongly claimed to have cured" of cancer.[12][13] The former patient had been diagnosed with uterine cancer but "Gonzalez discouraged her from following through on her cancer specialist's advice, instead recommending dietary supplements and frequent coffee enemas".[14] The patient had refused both standard treatment and an experimental protocol, but after the cancer spread to her spine, she discontinued Gonzalez's treatment and received chemotherapy and external beam radiation. Sometime in this period, she began having problems with her eyesight, back and hip, and she eventually became blind.[13][15] In 2000, Gonzalez was found partly liable (49%) in the death of a patient with Hodgkin's disease and ordered to pay $282,000 in damages, due to his use of an unproven cancer screening method instead of standard cancer testing.[16]

The American Cancer Society notes that there is "no convincing scientific evidence that [the Gonzalez treatment] is effective in treating cancer" and that some portions of the treatment may be harmful. A review article from the Journal of Clinical Gastroenterology is cited that notes the clinical efficacy of coffee enemas has not been proven and the therapy is associated with severe adverse effects previously described in a few case reports. Gonzalez's study published in Nutrition and Cancer in 1999 was criticized by an expert in integrative oncology research methods for its small sample size, selection bias, and failure to account for confounders.[17]

[edit] Support for research efforts

,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[JanSz]

Latest protocal 01/17/10
.25cc Test EOD
.10cc HCG EOD
.25 Amastrozole E3D

Daily
-------
Simvastatin 40mg
Dhea 50mg
Super B-complex
B-Complex Sublighual
Natural C 100mg
Garlic 1000mg
D-3 5000 iu
Fish Oil 1000mg
Beta caroteve 25000iu

Nightly
--------
Melatonin 10mg
Benadryl 25mg
-------
Every 3rd week.
Blood donation.

========

I felt great for 5 or 6 months of being on a protocal that basically mirrors what I am doing now, then I crashed quickly
---
I'm not chasing numbers, I want to know what went wrong. Why would repeating what failed the first time have a different outcome?
--
After 5 months on this protocal I was doing great but then crash quickly, one would have to assume that the same thing will happen. So do I wait till I crash or try to prevent it? I would think that if nothing else I should get another corisol test, even though I have a recent one, and supplement with whatever is needed, if test indicates that I need to do so.
---
So in order of importance; What tests should I consider?
You posted ".10cc HCG EOD"

I am always uneasy when you are describing HCG.
We have been thru this many times around and I am newer sure if you understand how things work with HCG.
-------------------------------------------------

I have worked out my proposed plan for you.

And if I want to change something I will edit that post, until next big revision.

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=76750&postcount=206

I see that you are not following it and asking for more tests.

I do not have more ideas for you.
But I hope that if you follow my outline that it should help you.

If you do not understand something there or need clarification, please ask.
--------------------------------------------------

I am not a doctor and you should get best possible doctor and follow his advice.

Possibly others will have suggestions that are easier for you to follow or better suited to your situation.

....

[chilln]

After 5 months on this protocal I was doing great but then crash quickly, one would have to assume that the same thing will happen. So do I wait till I crash or try to prevent it? I would think that if nothing else I should get another corisol test, even though I have a recent one, and supplement with whatever is needed, if test indicates that I need to do so.
---
So in order of importance; What tests should I consider?


Your next optimal move is not testing, because your latest test results seem to be consistent with your current health state.

Your next optimal move would be to comprehend the answer to the following question:
"For 5 months on this protocol I was doing great, but then I crashed quickly - why ?"

I believe the answer is that initially your adrenals recovered some of their former output (up to a point) and you were not over-exerting yourself, both physically and mentally. But as those 5 months wore on, you started to "make use of" the additional hormone boost (which is the whole point of hormone modulation therapy) by increasing your levels of exertion, either physically or mentally, but then your adrenals couldn't cope with that higher level of exertion.

Had you remained at the same level of exertion, physically and mentally, as you were at before you started boosting your hormones, then I doubt you'd have crashed 5 months later - but then I doubt you'd have bothered with boosting your hormones if it were not possible to enjoy the fruits of your endeavors.

Ie: you have now discovered that your adrenals are rate limited at a level below where you need them to be, to live your life at your preferred level of exertion (physical and mental stressors).

###

Some people, not all, can work with their medical professional adviser to boost their adrenal output a little further by boosting their thyroid hormone T3 levels.

The rest of us, when we attempt this in conjunction with our medical professional adviser, become even more drowsy, because our adrenal output is genetically limited and there's no hormone boost, from any known source, which will boost our adrenals further.

###

Assuming that you and your medical professional adviser first agree that your adrenals hit a new limit, then your next-next move would be to discuss supplementing with either:
a) hydrocortisone or Cortef - both are man made bioidentical cortisol, in addition to your existing supplements.
or
b) more thyroid hormones T4 and T3 - but if you do this, then take it very carefully, in case your adrenals aren't able to be boosted further, via this route.

.

[crazycrew]

You posted ".10cc HCG EOD"

I am always uneasy when you are describing HCG.
We have been thru this many times around and I am newer sure if you understand how things work with HCG.--....-----------------------------------------------
Sorry I do know,,, just stuburn
Started Tue Jan 19/10
.25cc Test EOD = 175mg/week
10cc HCG = 250iu/ EOD
1/2/2010 added .25 anastrozole 2 x weekly=0.5mg/week (keep going)


I have worked out my proposed plan for you.

And if I want to change something I will edit that post, until next big revision.

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=76750&postcount=206


[I see that you are not following it and asking for more tests.....
....


I was wondering in what order the tests you recommended in that post were most needed on a sliding scale.
I should have read it more carefully and taken notes
JamSz wrote "When you have $$ get in this order
Spectracell-5000
FIA™ Comprehensive Profile 5000"


[I do not have more ideas for you.
But I hope that if you follow my outline that it should help you.

If you do not understand something there or need clarification, please ask.
--------------------------------------------------

I am not a doctor and you should get best possible doctor and follow his advice.

Possibly others will have suggestions that are easier for you to follow or better suited to your situation.

....


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I will be ordering the meds you recommeded in a day or two.
As far as supplements, I just spent about a hundred getting what I posted. Hopefully it won't be long before I can order your list.

There was a conformation of sorts about your recommendations which was easy for me {the consummate Okla hillbilly} to understand.--- Thanks Chillin.--

Today for me has been good so far. Started early (4AM) and still going strong. Been to town to take care of payroll, get parts and a visit to a VA shrink who verified for the doctor that I am indead not depressed. Imagine that.

My lady has just returned and her Dr has scheduled a mamogram and stated that "she believes the cancer is back."
Not good for the stessers huh.

I've buried myself in this forum but now need to leave and console her as best I can. She appears to be taking it well but you know she has to be freaked.

Thanks guys

[JanSz]

------
My lady has just returned and her Dr has scheduled a mamogram and stated that "she believes the cancer is back."
Not good for the stessers huh.

I've buried myself in this forum but now need to leave and console her as best I can. She appears to be taking it well but you know she has to be freaked.

Thanks guys

Suzan Sommers have a operated breast cancer.

You or better your lady may want to read her books.

She is not fighting establishment;
but
she want to get help from everywhere that make sense to her.


in her lattest book, Knockout
she describes alternate ways,
or better,
supplementary ways.
.
.
Often one start with broadened HRT,
figuring out what is out of range and making corrections,
but wery quickly lots of things are pointing toward what we eat.

Some make general statements of what constitute good diet for (all) humans.
Others divide humans into categories and do tweaking along those lines.

Who is right is hard to tell.
But at least half a decent diet is (much) better than what we are normally fed by recommended food pyramid.

Problem is that our upbringing and conveniences are often heavily interfering in our proper food choices.
.
.

[crazycrew]

Just ordered

Knockout: Interviews with Doctors Who Are Curing Cancer--And How to Prevent Getting It in the First Place

Breakthrough: Eight Steps to Wellness; Life-Altering Secrets from Today's Cutting-Edge Doctors

[crazycrew]

My Md asked why these were so high. I said they were never discussed before. And I know we haven't here (on this tread anyway).

norepinephrine ---------- 732 ---------- 0 - 399

Norepinephrine is both a hormone and a neurotransmitter. As a hormone, secreted by the adrenal gland, it works alongside epinephrine / adrenaline to give the body sudden energy in times of stress, known as the "fight or flight" response. As a neurotransmitter, it passes nerve impulses from one neuron to the next.

catecholaming tot p1 ---793-----------0 - 642


Catecholamines are sympathomimetic[1] "fight-or-flight" hormones that are released by the adrenal glands in response to stress.[2] They are part of the sympathetic nervous system.

They are called catecholamines because they contain a catechol group, and are derived from the amino acid tyrosine.[3]

[crazycrew]

ordered

Cytomel T3 --- 300--25mg

HCG 2000 i.u. X 15

Should I will up my EFRA to 1 in morning and 1 in the PM untill I get set up?

Today not good

[JanSz]

My Md asked why these were so high. I said they were never discussed before. And I know we haven't here (on this tread anyway).

norepinephrine ---------- 732 ---------- 0 - 399

Norepinephrine is both a hormone and a neurotransmitter. As a hormone, secreted by the adrenal gland, it works alongside epinephrine / adrenaline to give the body sudden energy in times of stress, known as the "fight or flight" response. As a neurotransmitter, it passes nerve impulses from one neuron to the next.

catecholaming tot p1 ---793-----------0 - 642


Catecholamines are sympathomimetic[1] "fight-or-flight" hormones that are released by the adrenal glands in response to stress.[2] They are part of the sympathetic nervous system.

They are called catecholamines because they contain a catechol group, and are derived from the amino acid tyrosine.[3]

It is relatively useless to test them.

First there doubts about quality of those tests, unless they are based on brain biopsy.

Then you will get 1000 theories about how to correct something that is transient.

Better (hopefully) approach is to check and correct more basic indicators that are easier to manipulate,
and
spend remaining time praying for the best outcome.

....

[JanSz]

ordered

Cytomel T3 --- 300--25mg -----(300*25/75)=100 that is 100 days supply, make sure you do not run out of it

HCG 2000 i.u. X 15 ---------(2000*15)/250*2=240 days supply

Should I will up my EFRA to 1 in morning and 1 in the PM untill I get set up?
Hard to say if that is good move, all depends on what you are going to do with all that T4.
If you convert it to TT3--good,
if you convert it to rT3---bad
You may try and observe reaction.
You may try up to 3grains=180mg

I have made a long list of supplements for you
If you take them, God willing, they may help in this finycky conversion process.
As you know, for that reason, T3 is preferable because we do not have to guess on what the end product really is.

Remember also that T2 and T1 are made out of TT3.
So the argument for natural thyroid is that much more out the window.

If/when you are at about
3grains natural
or
75mcg-T3
you may stop using Lugol's solution


Keep on reading this site, (book mark it for reference) this and other pages there:

http://www.thyroid-rt3.com/swapping.htm
http://www.thyroid-rt3.com/





Today not good----------sorry
consider going for phlebotomy in 2 weeks from the last one.
Before they draw blood, let them check Hg
if it is 16 or less, skip phlebotomy.
not sure, may be 15.5 or less,
have to collect your history and go what makes you feel better.





================

[crazycrew]

Keep on reading this site, (book mark it for reference) this and other pages there:

http://www.thyroid-rt3.com/swapping.htm
http://www.thyroid-rt3.com/

....

Excellent info thanks for the links. A little over my head but I will keep reading. Maybe it will soak in.

Slept 9 hrs last night. Started day good but crashed (nap) about noon. A little better after.

[JanSz]

Excellent info thanks for the links. A little over my head but I will keep reading. Maybe it will soak in.

Slept 9 hrs last night. Started day good but crashed (nap) about noon. A little better after.

Crash afternoon means you are short on Cortef or Medrol or whatewer you are using.

Keep tweaking dose, and you should not start on T3 untill after you stop crashing, or at least do not go for your full dose, not yet.

Get all supplements from the list, and eat them for a while, before you start messing with T3.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
This guide have a special purpose, it is directed at a person in foggy state.

Look for this quote at the top:

"A guide to the treatment of Thyroid resistance written for the brain fogged patient"

Ok, that was supposed to be a lame joke.
..

[JanSz]

Donating plasma today (donated blood 3 weeks ago)


Started Adkins diet

Good move, make sure that you stick to good diet.

Post test results that they will do before comencing phlebotomy.

...