27-Year Old Male in Trouble?!

[Topazman]

Hi All,

This is my first post so I would like to give a quick introduction and thank all who respond with useful information ahead of time.

I am a 27-year old male, who's been active in sports and weightlifting since I was 16 or so.I was always a pretty strong bloak, winning some open powerlifting and olympic weightlifting competitions here and there. However, in hindsight (based on the diagnosis I was recently served with), I never quite had that extra gear nor did I carry a substantial amount of muscle
mass to match the strength that I had developed and, in fact, since college, I've relied on OTC stimulants/thermogenics to give me extra energy to train. Until recently, I was using Biotest Spike and Hot Rox Extreme (in recommended doses) for energy and that is when problems
began to manifest. I don't think it's cause and effect, but I did get acne while on Hot rox Extreme, which I never had in my life. In any case, I began having trouble maintaining erections and my sex life became rather sporadic (I've now been married for 2 years). I should also mention that while in college, I tried a couple of andro products (including 1-AD, which is a prosteroid) with noticeable results and did not do PCT. When we were convinced that my problems were consistent, I began to look into the issue and realized that I did indeed have many of the symptoms of supressed testosterone. I went straight to an endocrinologist.

The doc was a bit surprised when he saw me walk in because I'm athletic and around 9% bodyfat (though it isn't easy for me to maintain this level), but I convinced him to do a blood test. He tested for anemia, thyroid hormones, prolactin, total and free T. Two weeks later, everything was in range, except
for my free and total T, which were 7.5 and 301, respectively (sorry, I don't remember the standard units, as I don't have the results in front of me). He then ordered another blood test and a MRI to confirm. the first thing he said was that testosterone is the last thing I want to supplement with because
it will shut down my endogenous production. He told me about clomid and suggested I research it and come back when my second blood test is complete, at which point he will gladly prescribe it. I do want to start having kids this year as my wife is 32, so I understand that testosterone replacement is not my best option becasue its potential negative effect on sperm count?

Some more questions...

Is it possible that my endogenous testosterone production could have remained low after not doing PCT after using 1-AD several years ago?

From the literature I've read, Clomiphene citrate does indeed correct erectile problems in young men and it brings free and totat T back to normal, BUT will it make me feel better overall (mood, energy, concentation, etc.)? I've heard mixed reviews on that...

What questions should I be ready to fire at my doc at my next visit?

Thanks to all who respond!

[hardasnails1973]

I run into this all the time with many people. Its called the overtraining and under eating syndrome..Your body has been pushed to its genetic cellular matrix level. At this time you where given signals to slow down, but like many did not listen. In response since you did not slow down your body will do it for you by producing high cortisol which in matter of just a few months to weeks would cause your body to increase rt3. The increase in rt3 is a protective mechanism for the body so it does not eat it death. So you goto the dr complaining of fatigue and not feeling right. They stick you on anti depressants and send you out for psychotherapy. When in fact if they properly assessed your hormones and took the time to see that you are not the normal average person that sits on your ass and eats like crap, but rather a highly trained individual who nutritonal where you where taken out more then you put in. This over time causes mineral imbalances that can trigger hormonal imbalances such as rise in the cortisol levels. Trust me I went through all this crap and when I see the dr that treated me first I want to punch him out because the ahole heard me, but was not listen to what I was saying. Here I come into his office 230 lbs 5'9 5% bf guy complaining of intestinal discomfort what is a dr going to think? When my testosterone came back at 40, thyroid ft4 was normal and ft3 was bottomed out then he gave me 2.5 mgs of androgel and paxil. Then the bastard had the balls to send me to a shrink. I came into him for food poisning from sushi I had eaten and ended up with anti depressants. When people start telling me their issues being an athlete it probably stems back from alot of factors that were feeding into it.. For the Dr they just need to learn to LISTEN instead of hearing what you are saying. Some times you are screwed before you walk in the door because they have their mind made up before you even get half way through explaining your self. As soon as they hear the words "emotional" , stress, or depressed here comes the paxil baby..LOL

[Topazman]

Thanks for your insight. Because I suspected the same, I've actually kept away from strenous exercise for past 2 weeks.

In terms of a solution...would you say that clomiphene will help reverse the condition?

[hardasnails1973]

Thanks for your insight. Because I suspected the same, I've actually kept away from strenous exercise for past 2 weeks.

In terms of a solution...would you say that clomiphene will help reverse the condition?

Replenish your bodys nutrients and getting good sleep will be more of a help then clomid ever will be..

[Topazman]

I agree, though I've been doing these things all along, combined with a periodized training program. I don't shy away from fat, either (I follow John Berardi's principles)...perhaps I wasn't eating enough all along...

In any case, I will update with my second blood test and how my visit went next week.

[Wise Guy]

Hey Topazman

Glad to see you hear, I'm also a T-nation guy as well.

Topaz is a beautiful rock :biggrin:. I used to collect and polish rocks, and had a tumbler when I was a kid.

Anyhoot, there is nothing in SPIKE or HOT-Rx that would cause anything detrimental to T levels, unless you were abusing them.

HotRx, if anything, would increase T levels due to the forskolin it contains.

Now forskolin can slightly aromatize, but nothing to bat an eye at, unless you were abusing it......

The pro-hormone you used. Was it Mag-10, or any of Biotests old derivatives of Mag-10 or any other Biotest prohormone? Did you abuse them(taking any of them longer than 6 weeks or spending any significant period of time "on" them than "off" them.....

Explain prohormone use in detail. Saying you "used" a prohormone means nothing, detailing it means more

Give me ranges for your T scores.

What was your estradiol levels?

Oh and one more note for HANZ. See all these complete sentences and frequent paragraph breaks I use? Makes reading what I say much more comprehensible.

You jumble all these words together in one paragraph and, more often than not, I just don't want to scramble my brain reading it, I skip over it. I have a feeling many here do as well, on this board and others.

Which is a shame because you have intelligent things to say.

Oh and I will give you a ring later

[JanSz]

Biotest Spike
Hot Rox Extreme

I did get acne while on Hot rox Extreme
began having trouble maintaining erections and my sex life became rather sporadic (I've now been married for 2 years).

while in college, I tried a couple of andro products (including 1-AD, which is a prosteroid) with noticeable results and did not do PCT.

9% bodyfat

tested for anemia, thyroid hormones, prolactin, total and free T.

total T=301

ordered another blood test and a MRI

I do want to start having kids this year as my wife is 32, so I understand that testosterone replacement is not my best option


Post all your blood test, older and newer.
post date,
analyte name, value, units, range
laboratory name

Never use external Testosterone with out support of HCG, not even for 1/2 an hour.
When trying to raise testosterone, always use HCG first, to the maximum capacity of your testicles.
When on "getting pregnant" project, you may use much more than optimal doses of HCG.
When using HCG, always keep few months supply at hand, (supplies are often interupted).

I am assuming that you have tried and not succeded in getting your wife pregnant.
Are you able to have intercourse and ejaculate?

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-3.html
Getting your wife pregnant and having good health are (mostly) non-contradictory pursuits.
Look at chart at post #79, concentrate only on the redlined part.
The 2000iu E3D that they mention, change to 600iu ED (every day)
That dose size may raise your E2 too much, it may be justified for relatively short time when trying to conceive.
Also there may be a need for HMG, you would not use HMG unless planning to conceive.

As you may noted, I skipped (totally) the Clomid part, for conception purpose and for life otherwise.

Whatewer you did years ago and did not do PCT, is a water over the dam, you are now where your internal ajustmets are setting you at. Any attempt at PCT is waste of time.

There may be more after you post back.
In the link above, look at my post #44 when looking for ideas on blood testing.

Good luck;

.
/

[Topazman]

Anyhoot, there is nothing in SPIKE or HOT-Rx that would cause anything detrimental to T levels, unless you were abusing them.

HotRx, if anything, would increase T levels due to the forskolin it contains.

Now forskolin can slightly aromatize, but nothing to bat an eye at, unless you were abusing it......

I was not abusing them, only going up to the recommended dosage at most. I did notice acne on HOT Rox Extreme and I suspected the Carbolin, which I
later confirmed by using that supplement alone (got acne from it).



The pro-hormone you used. Was it Mag-10, or any of Biotests old derivatives of Mag-10 or any other Biotest prohormone? Did you abuse them(taking any of them longer than 6 weeks or spending any significant period of time "on" them than "off" them.....

Explain prohormone use in detail. Saying you "used" a prohormone means nothing, detailing it means more

I never did longer than 6-week cycles, 2 in total, one on 1-AD from Ergopharm and 1-Test from some other company (can't recall).


Give me ranges for your T scores.
I'll give more exact ranges when I get the results later, but here's what I
remember:

Tfree: 7.5; range 9.2-26.XX
Ttotal: 301; range 24x-8XX


What was your estradiol levels?

I don't know, should I insist on getting this assayed?

[Topazman]

Post all your blood test, older and newer.
post date,
analyte name, value, units, range
laboratory name

I will get back to you on this later this evening...


Never use external Testosterone with out support of HCG, not even for 1/2 an hour.
When trying to raise testosterone, always use HCG first, to the maximum capacity of your testicles.
When on "getting pregnant" project, you may use much more than optimal doses of HCG.
When using HCG, always keep few months supply at hand, (supplies are often interupted).

Are you completely ruling out overtraining/undereating here (as hardasnails mentioned) and suggesting I go on TRT and not bother with less "invasive" means first at the age of 27?


I am assuming that you have tried and not succeded in getting your wife pregnant.
Are you able to have intercourse and ejaculate?

No, we have not started yet and I (from past experience) know I'm fertile...
I can have intercourse, but my erection isn't consistent.




As you may noted, I skipped (totally) the Clomid part, for conception purpose and for life otherwise.

May I ask why you skipped it? I've seen peer-reviewed literature that has suggested that clomid is able to increase free and totat T significantly, especially in young males. Isn't it worth a shot before I look to lifelong treatment?

[Topazman]

By the way, is there by any chance a list of doctors who are TRT-friendly available somewhere (I'm in SoCal)? In case I have to go that route, it'd be helpful and more efficient this way. I haven't really formed an opinion about my current endocrinologist, but the reason I chose him was because is also a prof at a university and not too old so I thought he might be more open-minded. We'll see if he proves me wrong.

[JanSz]

Are you completely ruling out overtraining/undereating here (as hardasnails mentioned) and suggesting I go on TRT and not bother with less "invasive" means first at the age of 27?

It is always good idea to do thorough testing.
I do my complete list every 1-1.5 years,
and slelected tests (from that list) through out the year.
See my list of tests on post #44 here:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

If you can add to the above two tests:

#1, Glucose/insuline tolerance test, 75gram glucose, 7 points.
0min
30min
60min
90min
120min
150min
180min

#2, Essential & Metabolic Fatty Acids Analysis (EMFA)

pay attention to what hardasnails say,
and if you want hardasnails to love you, do also

SpectraCell-5000



No, we have not started yet and I (from past experience) know I'm fertile...
I can have intercourse, but my erection isn't consistent.


You may want to work on your childern now.
Also if you plan on more than one, make them ASAP.
I am hearing that even with carefull use of HCG, there are reports that in some men testicles are still getting desensitized after 2-3 years of HCG use.



May I ask why you skipped it? I've seen peer-reviewed literature that has suggested that clomid is able to increase free and totat T significantly, especially in young males. Isn't it worth a shot before I look to lifelong treatment?

You have not been on steroid cycle, there is nothing that was shut down couple weeks ago that would be recovered with use of (dangerous) drugs (Clomin, Nolva).
Your situation is permanently coded within your body.

There is couple of guys here posting on their experience with Clomid.
Some experienced side effects (vision problems), none have lasting results.
.
.

[Dedicated87]

where in socal are you from, i might have some dr. ideas for you.

[Topazman]

I'm in the San Diego area. I found a few, but most of them are not in my insurance network...

Perhaps you can PM me your ideas?

thanks!

[hardasnails1973]

I agree, though I've been doing these things all along, combined with a periodized training program. I don't shy away from fat, either (I follow John Berardi's principles)...perhaps I wasn't eating enough all along...

In any case, I will update with my second blood test and how my visit went next week.

Dr john berardi was my old training partner years ago for a few years.

[Topazman]

Ok, for those who asked, here are the blood test results from ~2 weeks ago:

T4, Free (Direct) 1.14 ng/dL | 0.61-1.76
T, Free (Direct) 7.5 pg/mL | 9.3-26.5
T, Serum 315 (ng/dL) | 241-827
TSH 2.84 uIU/mL | 0.45-4.5
Prolactin 7.3 | 2.1-17.7

I will have new results next week...

[hardasnails1973]

adrenal issues when properly address can un cover hidden hypothyroidism. I have seen this several times with people.

[Topazman]

adrenal issues when properly address can un cover hidden hypothyroidism. I have seen this several times with people.

How would this relate to low T levels? Also, I'm not sure if you saw it, but I just posted my blood test results, including T4 and TSH levels...

[JanSz]

Ok, for those who asked, here are the blood test results from ~2 weeks ago:

T4, Free (Direct) 1.14 ng/dL | 0.61-1.76
T, Free (Direct) 7.5 pg/mL | 9.3-26.5
T, Serum 315 (ng/dL) | 241-827
TSH 2.84 uIU/mL | 0.45-4.5
Prolactin 7.3 | 2.1-17.7

I will have new results next week...

T4, Free (Direct) 1.14 ng/dL | 0.61-1.76-----OK
T, Free (Direct) 7.5 pg/mL | 9.3-26.5-------very low (do not beliewe this test)
T, Serum 315 (ng/dL) | 241-827------very low
TSH 2.84 uIU/mL | 0.45-4.5----suspicious
Prolactin 7.3 | 2.1-17.7---------ok

[Topazman]

Updated Test Results:

T, Free (Direct) 7.8 pg/mL | 9.3-26.5
T, Serum 322 (ng/dL) | 241-827
FSH, Serum 5.4 mIU/mL | 1.4-18.1
LH, S 3.9mIU/mL | 1.5-9.3
Prolactin 7.8 | 2.1-17.7

I've been on 50mg/day clomid since Tuesday.

What's the timeframe in which one can expect to feel a difference?

[Topazman]

Just wanted to post an update and get some feedback.

I've been on Clomiphene Citrate since Tues, Jan 27. I took 100mg per day for 4 days and have been on 50mg since. As of yesterday, I began to feel much better from the standpoint of mental clarity, concentration and overall well- being. However, my libido is definitely down and I have a harder time getting an erection than before (very soft). My doc is out of town and I can't get a hold of him to consult with him...

Can anyone comment on what may be happening?

[Wise Guy]

Just wanted to post an update and get some feedback.

I've been on Clomiphene Citrate since Tues, Jan 27. I took 100mg per day for 4 days and have been on 50mg since. As of yesterday, I began to feel much better from the standpoint of mental clarity, concentration and overall well- being. However, my libido is definitely down and I have a harder time getting an erection than before (very soft). My doc is out of town and I can't get a hold of him to consult with him...

Can anyone comment on what may be happening?

Maybe your T and E is up

Perhaps this also means it's working

[Topazman]

Maybe your T and E is up

Perhaps this also means it's working

Yes, I do feel that my T is up, at least enough to get my concentration and mood elevated. Weight-room strength is good, too. But why is it that my libido has dropped on clomid??

The past two nights I also did not experience nighttime erections, which I always do.

Should I wait it out for another week to see if things normalize? Is 50mg/day too much for me?

I just did a forum search and found a post where Dr. John says that Clomid restart can take a few months, which makes me sound impatient. But I still don't understand why it would lower my libido compared to not being on anything and having low T...

[Sargovar]

Yes, I do feel that my T is up, at least enough to get my concentration and mood elevated. Weight-room strength is good, too. But why is it that my libido has dropped on clomid??

The past two nights I also did not experience nighttime erections, which I always do.

Should I wait it out for another week to see if things normalize? Is 50mg/day too much for me?

50 mg/day sounds like quite a lot. Maybe try splitting the pills and taking 25 mgs?
It is quite common for men to lose their mojo on SERMs (not everyone experiences this, but many do). This, I think, is because the drugs cause estrogenic effects in some parts of the body/brain/tissues while blocking same in others. The clomid could be blocking your estradiol from doing its job at a certain receptor site so the E2 takes its business elsewhere and causes all kinds of nastiness while at it, including a potential loss of libido.

[Topazman]

50 mg/day sounds like quite a lot. Maybe try splitting the pills and taking 25 mgs?
It is quite common for men to lose their mojo on SERMs (not everyone experiences this, but many do). This, I think, is because the drugs cause estrogenic effects in some parts of the body/brain/tissues while blocking same in others. The clomid could be blocking your estradiol from doing its job at a certain receptor site so the E2 takes its business elsewhere and causes all kinds of nastiness while at it, including a potential loss of libido.

Thanks for the reply, Sargovar.

Is there anything I could try that would allow me to have an normal erection and sex while on clomid?

Perhaps the poison is in the dose and 50mg is too much of a surplus of the SERM and it blocks out too much E2 in the hypothalamus and other places, which, in turn, makes the E2 act where it's not supposed to?

[Sargovar]

Thanks for the reply, Sargovar.

Is there anything I could try that would allow me to have an normal erection and sex while on clomid?

Perhaps the poison is in the dose and 50mg is too much of a surplus of the SERM and it blocks out too much E2 in the hypothalamus and other places, which, in turn, makes the E2 act where it's not supposed to?

No problem Topazman.

Hmm.. just a thought; maybe something to facilitate better clearance of the "troublemaking" estrogen, such as DIM & TMG? Theoretically it might improve your libido when taking a SERM. Not sure how it would work in practice, but it might be worth a shot! You can't really go wrong with those two supplements, anyway.

For erectile improvement, maybe a bit of cialis? But of course optimally you'd correct the underlying cause so as to not need it.
50 mgs sounds like the kind of dose that hard core juicers take to shock their HPTA back into gear after a long and heavy steroid cycle.
Too much of a good thing can indeed be a bad thing: your libido may very well return if you halve the dose. This happened to me back when I was taking Zoloft for depression (though in retrospect the depression was simply the last manifestation of a long chain of problems and imbalances; not the main culprit): 50 mgs of the stuff made me feel like I had been castrated, but cutting the dose in half brought back some semblance of virility. After staying on the lower dose for a while, I eventually got most of my libido back.

[Topazman]

No problem Topazman.

Hmm.. just a thought; maybe something to facilitate better clearance of the "troublemaking" estrogen, such as DIM & TMG? Theoretically it might improve your libido when taking a SERM. Not sure how it would work in practice, but it might be worth a shot! You can't really go wrong with those two supplements, anyway.

For erectile improvement, maybe a bit of cialis? But of course optimally you'd correct the underlying cause so as to not need it.
50 mgs sounds like the kind of dose that hard core juicers take to shock their HPTA back into gear after a long and heavy steroid cycle.
Too much of a good thing can indeed be a bad thing: your libido may very well return if you halve the dose. This happened to me back when I was taking Zoloft for depression (though in retrospect the depression was simply the last manifestation of a long chain of problems and imbalances; not the main culprit): 50 mgs of the stuff made me feel like I had been castrated, but cutting the dose in half brought back some semblance of virility. After staying on the lower dose for a while, I eventually got most of my libido back.

Thanks again, Sargovar.

Normally, I would not change too many things at once but I will try your suggestion regarding DIM and TMG (since they seem harmless) while reducting the clomid to 25mg. Perhaps the supplements will help to quickly clear the excess that I've created with the higher SERM dose...

[Sargovar]

Thanks again, Sargovar.

Normally, I would not change too many things at once but I will try your suggestion regarding DIM and TMG (since they seem harmless) while reducting the clomid to 25mg. Perhaps the supplements will help to quickly clear the excess that I've created with the higher SERM dose...

Sure thing!

I myself have some clomid sitting on the shelf and I was going to use it to gauge the effectiveness of my boys, i.e. a standard short duration clomid test. So anything that might help with the side-effects of said drug is of personal interest to me.

Keep us updated on how things turn out! :cool:

[wondering]

Do you KNOW your E is elevated or assuming ?

If you dont know, why would you take something to lower it.


Thanks again, Sargovar.

Normally, I would not change too many things at once but I will try your suggestion regarding DIM and TMG (since they seem harmless) while reducting the clomid to 25mg. Perhaps the supplements will help to quickly clear the excess that I've created with the higher SERM dose...

[Topazman]

I don't know for sure that my E2 levels are elevated, but I did start getting acne on the higher clomid dose.

I'm currently taking 25mg/day but can't objectively say that I'm feeling better since I probably have high amounts of the SERM from last week's higher doses. I did get a some massive nighttime erections last night, though, to complement a pretty "colorful" dream ;)

[thenxtgrt1]

No problem Topazman.

Hmm.. just a thought; maybe something to facilitate better clearance of the "troublemaking" estrogen, such as DIM & TMG? Theoretically it might improve your libido when taking a SERM. Not sure how it would work in practice, but it might be worth a shot! You can't really go wrong with those two supplements, anyway.

For erectile improvement, maybe a bit of cialis? But of course optimally you'd correct the underlying cause so as to not need it.
50 mgs sounds like the kind of dose that hard core juicers take to shock their HPTA back into gear after a long and heavy steroid cycle.
Too much of a good thing can indeed be a bad thing: your libido may very well return if you halve the dose. This happened to me back when I was taking Zoloft for depression (though in retrospect the depression was simply the last manifestation of a long chain of problems and imbalances; not the main culprit): 50 mgs of the stuff made me feel like I had been castrated, but cutting the dose in half brought back some semblance of virility. After staying on the lower dose for a while, I eventually got most of my libido back.


Sargovar...I find the DIM and TMG concept very interesting. Could be a good fit with the clomid.

Topazman, definitely keep us updated. I've also thought about doing a short trial of clomid. Sounds like your off to great start already with lower dose.

[Topazman]

I do feel incredibly well right now - a lot more gregarious, focused, and physically and mentally strong. I hope this keeps up at this low dose. I will definitely keep you guys posted because I know how incredibly valuable this information can be to some...

[Topazman]

Just wanted to provide an update on how things are progressing...

After 18 days on clomiphene citrate (most recently, 25mg/day), I've been feeling relatively good, but not great like the couple of days a week after I started taking the drug. I called my doctor and he said it can take at least 4 weeks to to "get my testosterone levels to plateau." He also said that it's possible to completely and permanently reverse the low-T condition with clomid. Has this EVER been shown and followed up?

What I am curious about is whether my E2 level has likely increased since starting the clomid and that is the reason that I don't feel as good as when I just started the treatment?

I went to a different doctor for a second opinion and he suggested I drop clomid to 25mg/3x per week (if I'm going to use it longer term) and prescribed anastrozole at 1mg/2x per week to combat estrogen. He also prescribed DHEA (timed release). What should I make of this? Does it make sense to be taking an aromatase inhibitor while on an anti-estrogen? Also, how effective is Zinc supplementation toward that same goal? Can I try that first?

To refresh, I am 27 years old and am not considering TRT for now, since I'd like to have kids in the near future (on that note, how long would it take for my sperm to be affected if I were to go that route?)

[chilln]

He also said that it's possible to completely and permanently reverse the low-T condition with clomid.


Many males have been able to successfully restart their testicular testosterone production via clomid therapy. It's a hit or miss affair. Also, it's not certain that your sex hormone producing organs are all 100% fully functional.

There are no papers on restarting the testicular testosterone production via clomid therapy - as far as I am aware. It's common knowledge among endocrinologists that this works.

Please note that if any one of your sex hormone producing organs is not fully functional, then a restart won't maintain those initially high levels of testicular testosterone production, which you first noted.

Having said all that, the fact that you had some initial success with clomid does suggest you may be a candidate for a successful restart. No guarantees.

###



What I am curious about is whether my E2 level has likely increased since starting the clomid and that is the reason that I don't feel as good as when I just started the treatment?


There is absolutely no technology available today which will help you measure your E2 (estradiol) metabolism while on comid. None. Zero. Kaput.

I hope I've made my message clear ? Somehow I don't think so.

Precise knowledge of E2 metabolism is critical to managing the health markers you are trying to manage, therefore neither you, nor we, can help you optimize your health via any dosing strategy for clomid.

Clomid therapy is not designed for health optimization. It's designed to restart your testicular testosterone production. That's all. Game over.

If you think you can optimize your health, while supplementing with clomid, you will most likely spend thousands of man hours chasing your tail, and get more misses than hits.

Sorry to be blunt.

Once your testicular testosterone production has restarted, the point is to back off the clomid and live your life without clomid, and without any other artificial testosterone boost method.

Then your job is to optimize your health in as many other ways as possible, other than messing with Clomid. The first thing to do is the measure your testosterone levels (total, bioavailable, free) and see whether your testicles can deliver enough testosterone to satisfy your youthful desire for high energy expenditure, and high damage tolerance.

I suspect that perhaps this was not made clear to you, before you started supplementing with clomid.




I went to a different doctor for a second opinion and he suggested I drop clomid to 25mg/3x per week (if I'm going to use it longer term) and prescribed anastrozole at 1mg/2x per week to combat estrogen.

and



Does it make sense to be taking an aromatase inhibitor while on an anti-estrogen?


Both clomid and anastrozole together is silly. Using any clomid long term means you will never be able to measure your E2 metabolism.

On the other hand, if you use only the anastrozole (arimidex) then you will be able to measure your E2 metabolism, by measuring your E2 serum levels. Yippeee!




He also prescribed DHEA (timed release). What should I make of this?


I'd say you need to forget about DHEA until you work out whether you want to do a restart of your testicular testosterone production, or whether you want to put your testosterone under management by injecting HCG subQ plus either:
a) some transdermal testosterone
or
b) some intramuscular injected testosterone




Also, how effective is Zinc supplementation toward that same goal? Can I try that first?


Not very effective at all.



To refresh, I am 27 years old and am not considering TRT for now, since I'd like to have kids in the near future


Unfortunately taking clomid is still an artificial way of boosting testosterone, and it has more damaging side effects than boosting testicular testosterone production by injecting HCG subQ, and applying transdermal testosterone / injecting testosterone ester.

###

If we thought that boosting testosterone by taking clomid was healthier in the long term, than injecting HCG subQ, and applying transdermal testosterone / injecting testosterone ester, then we'd all be advocating the comid route.

We do not advocate the long term clomid route. In fact we warn against it.

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You can try running with just the anastrozole (arimidex), and no clomid. But if your testicular testosterone production hadn't been elevated to nice high levels, then you're not going to get far on just anastrozole alone, until you add in some form of exogenous testosterone.

[hardasnails1973]

Sounds to me like your dr was on the right track but needed to monitor things alot closer. i would suggest running clomid for 100 mgs a day for 7 days then test on 8 th day to see if your t goes up any. if it does then you may want to stay on a dosage of 25 to 50 mgs every 3 days (dr guided then restest your levels in another 2 weeks to see where they are at. Once stabilized hold those levels for another 6-8 weeks then discontinue the clomid then retest in 3 weeks both testosterone and estrodial (since the e2 will be cleared from the receptors) if you do not restart then hcg would be the next step or looking for the primary cause of the dyfunctioning LH (zincmg,b-6 defiency,e2, insulin, thyroid/adrenals imbalance, EFA imbalance, improper lifestlye practices, practicing stress reduction)

[chilln]

Sounds to me like your dr was on the right track but needed to monitor things alot closer. i would suggest running clomid for 100 mgs a day for 7 days then test on 8 th day to see if your t goes up any. if it does then you may want to stay on a dosage of 25 to 50 mgs every 3 days (dr guided then restest your levels in another 2 weeks to see where they are at. Once stabilized hold those levels for another 6-8 weeks then discontinue the clomid then retest in 3 weeks both testosterone and estrodial (since the e2 will be cleared from the receptors) if you do not restart then hcg would be the next step or looking for the primary cause of the dyfunctioning LH (zincmg,b-6 defiency,e2, insulin, thyroid/adrenals imbalance, EFA imbalance, improper lifestlye practices, practicing stress reduction)



But you forgot to mention that Topazman will never optimize his health while on clomid - because he cannot measure the effectiveness of his estradiol metabolism, because there's no technology which exists to do that while on a SERM.

[hardasnails1973]

But you forgot to mention that Topazman will never optimize his health while on clomid - because he cannot measure the effectiveness of his estradiol metabolism, because there's no technology which exists to do that while on a SERM.

why one never measures e2 while on clomid/nolvadex ,Just using it to verify that body can stimulate own production. some times one just have to ride it out for 6 weeks then after the estrogen clears they tend to feel better then can get accurate measurements 3-4 weeks off of serms for e2 and total, biotest. I agree with you 100% that serms are short term and long term use can be dangerous..if they get a good kick of T rise from clomid, person age is less then 25 then restart might work, but older people can use hcg to get the same effect long term if balls are not the issue, but tend to end up battling e2 issues for some unknown reason. for some reason hcg increases aronatase more then testosterone directly, but there has been no explaination for this occurance.

[Topazman]

Thanks for all your valuable input!

Chillin:
When you say there are no studies showing clomid as being effective in restarting T production, Do you mean studies where people were taken off the drug and found to be normal? Because I have found several studies where men were given clomid and testosterone was restored (some case studies and some with n>100).

Also, I have been reading this forum and I am aware of the apprehension around using clomid long term. I do not plan on using it for any longer than I need to, and, if it so happens that I need exogenous T then I will not shy away from it, so long as I'm still able to have kids.

I have a feeling that the reason I felt really good the first week I started clomid was because I took 100mg for about 4 days that week. This was not recommended by my endocrinologist (he is actually pretty nonchalant about this and said to take 1/2 - 1 tab per day). This would mean that I got a huge initial spike in testosterone and that is I felt great, meaning my HPTA should be functional, right?

The second doctor who prescribed anastrozole and dhea was really prescription happy. I swear I could have walked out of there with a script for anything I wanted (which scares me). When I brought up HCG and that it is safer long term, he agreed, said it was expensive, and then asked if I wanted a prescription for it. So I took the anastrozole and dhea and left. I have not started taking them because I want to give clomid an honest shot first.

Having said that, I will stay on 25mg clomid EOD for the next 3 weeks, which is when my appointment/lab tests are due for the first doctor. I will see what my T levels are go from there.

Does this sound like a wise plan?

[chilln]

Thanks for all your valuable input!

Chillin:
When you say there are no studies showing clomid as being effective in restarting T production, Do you mean studies where people were taken off the drug and found to be normal? Because I have found several studies where men were given clomid and testosterone was restored (some case studies and some with n>100).

Also, I have been reading this forum and I am aware of the apprehension around using clomid long term. I do not plan on using it for any longer than I need to, and, if it so happens that I need exogenous T then I will not shy away from it, so long as I'm still able to have kids.

I have a feeling that the reason I felt really good the first week I started clomid was because I took 100mg for about 4 days that week. This was not recommended by my endocrinologist (he is actually pretty nonchalant about this and said to take 1/2 - 1 tab per day). This would mean that I got a huge initial spike in testosterone and that is I felt great, meaning my HPTA should be functional, right?

The second doctor who prescribed anastrozole and dhea was really prescription happy. I swear I could have walked out of there with a script for anything I wanted (which scares me). When I brought up HCG and that it is safer long term, he agreed, said it was expensive, and then asked if I wanted a prescription for it. So I took the anastrozole and dhea and left. I have not started taking them because I want to give clomid an honest shot first.

Having said that, I will stay on 25mg clomid EOD for the next 3 weeks, which is when my appointment/lab tests are due for the first doctor. I will see what my T levels are go from there.

Does this sound like a wise plan?

Although theoretically it sounds reasonable, the less-than-optimum part is that you haven't yet found a medical professional adviser whose knowledge you respect.

I'd work on finding a medical professional adviser whose knowledge you respect.

Then run your plan by this person.

We really can't provide someone with a "health optimization plan" because we don't have the credentials, and we don't have the time to assess all your inputs (not just the ones you write down here).

All we can really do is offer educational info re what's likely to be happening, and some things you may want to discuss with your medical professional adviser(s).

But since you're still starting out, you really do need a "health optimization plan" - and that can only really come from a medical professional adviser whose knowledge you respect.

Obviously try Dr Crisler. But otherwise google "anti aging + doctor" or "holistic medical center".

The doctors in holistic medical centers tend to be more keen to get to the heart of the matter without prescribing just anything at all.

[Topazman]

Thought I'd provide an update on my condition with some recent labs:

Quest Diagnostics:

Testosterone, Free and Total LC/MS/MS
Total: 841 | 250-1100
Free: 96.4 | 35-155
Albumin: 4.8 | 3.6-5.1
FSH: 6.9 | 1.6-8.0
LH: 3.0 | 1.5-9.3
SHBG: pending....

To refresh, I am taking clomid after being diagnosed with low Testosterone in early February. At 25mg/d my doc want to keep me on it for another 3 months, restest, then discontinue to see if I restart (I think that's his plan, anyway). I should mention that during the course of the treatment I got my wife pregnant! I don't necessarily attribute this to clomid, however, because I knew I didn't have problems with fertility.

In terms of subjective experience...I feel pretty good most of the time and libido's been consistent. There are days when I get brain fog and fatigue...and those are also the days that I start losing hope and ponder over TRT at my young age of 27. I've been reading a great deal about TRT and would not hesitate to go for it at this point.

I do have a couple of questions...

1.) How likely is it that, given my initial pre-clomid low level of T, my HPTA will reset to a higher value? ... I don't think I've ever had very high T...i.e. hard to put on muscle, not very dense facial hair, small bone structure...perhaps that low T is why I started relying on energy supplements to get me through workouts to begin with...and their long-term use combined with undereating only contributed to the already subpar T levels??

2.) If I were to go the TRT route, can I do a restart, say, next year to go for another kid? I've read that sperm count decreases significantly in just over 50% of men, but that it's reversible as well.

your input's greatly appreciated!

[researchin]

Sounds to me like your dr was on the right track but needed to monitor things alot closer. i would suggest running clomid for 100 mgs a day for 7 days then test on 8 th day to see if your t goes up any. if it does then you may want to stay on a dosage of 25 to 50 mgs every 3 days (dr guided then restest your levels in another 2 weeks to see where they are at. Once stabilized hold those levels for another 6-8 weeks then discontinue the clomid then retest in 3 weeks both testosterone and estrodial (since the e2 will be cleared from the receptors) if you do not restart then hcg would be the next step or looking for the primary cause of the dyfunctioning LH (zincmg,b-6 defiency,e2, insulin, thyroid/adrenals imbalance, EFA imbalance, improper lifestlye practices, practicing stress reduction)

this seems like a staple approach, so why not try that with every guy under say.. 30? to account for guys that may have matured late

are there any other dangers to clomid than staying on it for too long?

[chilln]

How likely is it that, given my initial pre-clomid low level of T, my HPTA will reset to a higher value?


Your T (testoserone) levels are highly likely to "reset to high" only if you did something silly (eg: body building steroids, finasteride, and there are others) to cause you to have low T in the first instance.

Your T (testoserone) levels are highly likely to revert to low if your T levels originally dropped, or stayed low, due to natural causes (natural aging, poor genetics).




... I don't think I've ever had very high T...i.e. hard to put on muscle, not very dense facial hair, small bone structure...perhaps that low T is why I started relying on energy supplements to get me through workouts to begin with...and their long-term use combined with undereating only contributed to the already subpar T levels??


There's no mandatory requirement that all males must do heavy duty workouts. That's in your mind.

Obviously your levels were lower than the next guy, but that doesn't mean that your health was less-optimum than the next guy,

It is absolutely not true to say that huge muscles = max T = optimum health.

Yes you do need higher levels of T for optimum health, but across-the-board hormone balance is far far healthier than high-T-which-fuels-big-muscles.

So driving yourself to excess, in order to do heavy duty workouts is definitely a self-inflicted wound.

When you do start to boost your T using T (transdermal / infected T esters plus HCG), then you will certainly have the ability to override some of your faulty genetics, but that doesn't mean that your body will be balanced with some of your hormones at high levels, while other hormones are still at low levels.

Putting a few hormones under management may sound simple, but once you start messing with doses you'll soon discover that it's time consuming to put more and more hormones under management.

Eventually you'll be limited by your time commitment, not your money.

At that point you'll still have several hormones which are less-than-optimal, and if there's a wide difference between your natural state hormones which are not affected by your supplementation, and your boosted hormones, then your body will experience problems relating to those differences.

Eg: gut problems, thryoid problems, adrenal problems, whatever hormone system you aren't able to optimize, will let you dowm if you venture too far in one direction.

In other words, please do not be disappointed if your body doesn't handle boosting some of your hormones to high levels, while leaving other hormone subsystems alone.

You may have to only boost several of your hormones to less-than-high levels, and leave it at that, before you run out of hours-per-day to manage all of those supps.




2.) If I were to go the TRT route, can I do a restart, say, next year to go for another kid? I've read that sperm count decreases significantly in just over 50% of men, but that it's reversible as well.


Your sperm count will still be way high enough to father children, provided you're also supplementing with HCG, or recombinant FSH.

[Topazman]

Your T (testoserone) levels are highly likely to "reset to high" only if you did something silly (eg: body building steroids, finasteride, and there are others) to cause you to have low T in the first instance.

Your T (testoserone) levels are highly likely to revert to low if your T levels originally dropped, or stayed low, due to natural causes (natural aging, poor genetics).



Chillin:

Thank you for providing such unbiased and objective feedback. What you say about systemic hormone balance makes sense to me and I will be sure to find a doc who isn't intimidated by my questions and observations before I go the replacement route.

In terms of where my testosterone level will plateau after discontinuing the SERM, I'm afraid it is not black and white in my case. While I did do a couple of short cycles of OTC steroids in disguise (1-AD and 1-Test) in college (5+ years back), one would've expected my T level to have rebounded over time, though I never gave my body enough of a break to do so. For the past few years, I've been forskolin-and-caffeine containing supplements almost on a continuous basis. Although, based on the literature, I don't see how cAMP upregulation could shut me down, it is conceivable that my overall hormonal balance was thrown off. I am hoping that, over the course of the next 2+ months, a higher caloric intake and some relaxation/meditation will help me to maintain my T levels in my optimal range once I go off the Clomid.

[may19th2001]

Why is Arimidex considered the gold standard and better than clomid for estrogen control?

Hope I am not too out of line not trying to jack this thread...




Thanks for the reply, Sargovar.

Is there anything I could try that would allow me to have an normal erection and sex while on clomid?

Perhaps the poison is in the dose and 50mg is too much of a surplus of the SERM and it blocks out too much E2 in the hypothalamus and other places, which, in turn, makes the E2 act where it's not supposed to?

[Wise Guy]

Why is Arimidex considered the gold standard and better than clomid for estrogen control?

Hope I am not too out of line not trying to jack this thread...

Because clomid

1. Isn't anywhere near as accurate

2. Is a SERM, and long term SERM use should be avoided (although its fine in the short term)

3. Might cause vision problems and has some minor side effects (although the cancer thing is pretty much B.S)

[may19th2001]

That is what I have heard, I do not understand why so many Dr's use that rather than hcg or Clomid and the Arimidex for Estrogen. just undereducated Dr's due to lack of information for them and some of them not being open inded.

Even life extension recommends using Arimidex for Estrogen control apparantley the gold standard.



Because clomid

1. Isn't anywhere near as accurate

2. Is a SERM, and long term SERM use should be avoided (although its fine in the short term)

3. Might cause vision problems and has some minor side effects (although the cancer thing is pretty much B.S)