View Full Version : just curious
Just out of curiosity, say I were to just go cold turkey and let my body readjust, see how I feel, then decide whether to keep trying. The latest iteration of my therapy, since about Dec 1, is: .2 ml of 30mg/.2ml compounded gel, 1 grain of Armour, 1 LEF DHEA Complete capsule (100mg of 7-keto, and 25mg of regular DHEA), all once a day, and 100mg of oral pregnenolone 2x a day. Blood work to be done in early Feb.
I am experiencing not a great deal of difference in my every day life. Oh sure, I am starting to wake up with wood 2-3x a week instead of zero times, but I am not any hornier, nor am I getting any leaner.
Put another way, I never really felt horrible before starting down this path, as many of you did. Maybe I don't really need it, and that's why it's not working like I wish. I had read others' stories who said they became sex fiends, cut tons of fat in short time, and felt 20 again, all because of TRT. Maybe I expected the same miracles unrealistically.
Although my total T was only 294, my free t was 12.3 on a 5-21 scale before I ever went on TRT, and my TSH was 3.3. Neither the free nor the TSH levels were great, but neither were theyterrible, but this doc seemed to think I could be better. Just wondering if I went into it expecting a miracle which was neither needed nor to be expected. My only symptoms were tough to lose weight, and low libido. I did have some problems concentrating but those could have been from anything (although I don't seem to have them now)
joe143
01-22-2009, 07:27 PM
Well a couple points to consider
1. Even though your not feeling like you want, you are helping your body. Low T has a lot of detriments to health. At least you are helping to ensure proper health by avoiding things like osteoperosis, metabolic syndrome etc etc.
2. I dont know who you see for a doctor, but maybe your levels just arnt right. I dont know what labs you've had done, so its pure speculation.
3. Since you've been on trt you've shut down your natural production. You might feel ok now, but if you go off and not much testosterone gets produced you may feel awful.
On 1. My point is, did I really have low T? Free T is more important, correct? and mine was mid range.
On 2. Last level was 330's total T, and 10.5 free, and that's when the doc increased dosage by 10ml a day, also increased DHEA and pregnenolone significantly. I don't recall the TSH, but I believe it was in the mid 2 range.
On 3. How long would my brain need to restart on its own both the test and thyroid function? I know weaning off the Armour would be the best bet.
joe143
01-22-2009, 07:41 PM
On 1. My point is, did I really have low T? Free T is more important, correct? and mine was mid range.
On 2. Last level was 330's total T, and 10.5 free, doc increased dosage by 10ml a day, also increased DHEA and pregnenolone significantly. I don't recall the TSH, but I believe it was in the mid 2 range.
On 3. How long would my brain need to restart on its own both the test and thyroid function? I know weaning off the Armour would be the best bet.
1. 294 total T is low in my book. I think most here would say that Bio-available T is best check
2. 330 is still low, maybe you just arnt getting enough testosterone?
3. I dont think there is a set answer for restarting your own production. Who knows what will happen in that regard.
Yeah, the 330 is low, thats why he ramped the dosage up some and started me on the increased dhea and pregnenolone
I believe that free T that I posted that was mid range is supposed to be the bioavailable T, or is it?
hardasnails1973
01-22-2009, 08:55 PM
Theory is testosterone depeletes DHEA and this can be proven on several peoples blood work that I have came across once they get their levels up to 600-800 range DHEA takes a nose dive..
JanSz
01-22-2009, 09:24 PM
On 1. My point is, did I really have low T? Free T is more important, correct? and mine was mid range.
On 2. Last level was 330's total T, and 10.5 free, and that's when the doc increased dosage by 10ml a day, also increased DHEA and pregnenolone significantly. I don't recall the TSH, but I believe it was in the mid 2 range.
On 3. How long would my brain need to restart on its own both the test and thyroid function? I know weaning off the Armour would be the best bet.
Guy who invented FreeT testing should be hung by his balls.
This FreeT test confuses so many people.
Makes them waste time and energy.
Confuses everybody.
Is a source of illogical hyphothesis.
There is no free lunch, just wrong FreeT testing.
If you are low on TT you must be low on FreeT.
Pure mathematics.
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gman;
you are reading this board for a while.
There is few numbers that you have to follow.
If you get those numbers right, you still should not get your expectations high.
You will just be at a good starting point for more serious work if you lucky enough and find good doctor.
But do not waste that doctor's time, get the basic numbers right on your own.
.
.
GirlyMan
01-22-2009, 09:25 PM
Theory is testosterone depeletes DHEA and this can be proven on several peoples blood work that I have came across once they get their levels up to 600-800 range DHEA takes a nose dive..
Once I got my DHEA to the 500-600 range via supplementation my T took a nose-dive and I started TRT. HPTA-suppression from DHEA? Feedback-loop is bigger than we think? What? Whatever, I'm not looking going back now.
My DHEA was low normal before TRT and dropped lower after several months on 25mg a day. I think that's why the doc upped it.
medgerton
01-22-2009, 09:46 PM
Theory is testosterone depeletes DHEA and this can be proven on several peoples blood work that I have came across once they get their levels up to 600-800 range DHEA takes a nose dive..
Why does this happen? What is the mechanism? Is it true in most on TRT or not very common?
Jan, I guess my question is, do I keep after this when I did not feel too bad before, and feel no different now? I was sort of putting out feelers for advice on that.
Just trying to find out how to extricate myself from the whole thing, and move on.
JanSz
01-22-2009, 09:56 PM
Jan, I guess my question is, do I keep after this when I did not feel too bad before, and feel no different now? I was sort of putting out feelers for advice on that.
Just trying to find out how to extricate myself from the whole thing, and move on.
Beauty is in the eye of a beholder.
You know enough, your life, decission is yours.
I am just having a hard time because right now, it's not making enough of a difference to me to continue spending $200 a month on average on bloodwork, doc visits, testosterone, and supplements just to chase a number on a lab test.
I could just take 6-OXO and saw palmetto and probably be better off.
chilln
01-23-2009, 07:59 AM
Just out of curiosity, say I were to just go cold turkey and let my body readjust, see how I feel, then decide whether to keep trying. The latest iteration of my therapy, since about Dec 1, is: .2 ml of 30mg/.2ml compounded gel, 1 grain of Armour, 1 LEF DHEA Complete capsule (100mg of 7-keto, and 25mg of regular DHEA), all once a day, and 100mg of oral pregnenolone 2x a day. Blood work to be done in early Feb.
I am experiencing not a great deal of difference in my every day life. Oh sure, I am starting to wake up with wood 2-3x a week instead of zero times, but I am not any hornier, nor am I getting any leaner.
Put another way, I never really felt horrible before starting down this path, as many of you did. Maybe I don't really need it, and that's why it's not working like I wish. I had read others' stories who said they became sex fiends, cut tons of fat in short time, and felt 20 again, all because of TRT. Maybe I expected the same miracles unrealistically.
Although my total T was only 294, my free t was 12.3 on a 5-21 scale before I ever went on TRT, and my TSH was 3.3. Neither the free nor the TSH levels were great, but neither were theyterrible, but this doc seemed to think I could be better. Just wondering if I went into it expecting a miracle which was neither needed nor to be expected. My only symptoms were tough to lose weight, and low libido. I did have some problems concentrating but those could have been from anything (although I don't seem to have them now)
The dose of testosterone you're doing isn't going to do much at all.
Are you aware that if your health was relatively normal before you started testosterone supplementation, that you actually have to supply more testosterone than your testicles are making, if you want to boost your testosterone ?
That's because if you add some testosterone, then within a week, at most two, your testicles will make less testosterone by the amount to add.
That's because our male body has tight feedback control loops which monitor testosterone levels, and adjust for imbalances.
In other words, unless your dose of testosterone exceeds what you're already making, then all that's happened is that your testicles are making less testosterone by the amount you're applying to your skin.
Here's the kicker: if you are actually applying enough testsoterone to boost your levels beyond where they were before you started boosting your testosterone, then your testicles will be making no testosterone at all, and they'll eventually shrink to raisin size.
The protocol we practice here is to obtain most of our T boost from injected HCG (which mimics both LH and FSH), and the remainder of our T boost from testosterone cream (pref) or injected (if cream is not favorable).
The testicles manufacture pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone, androstenedione, and many other hormones too. You really do need to discuss this aspect with your medical professional adviser.
This guy, Dr Lambert T Parker, is supposed to be an expert in the field, he lectures at doctor conventions, etc. I don't know why he doesn't do the normal testosterone injections + hcg like 99% of other docs do.
Again, I am wondering how long it would take me to get back to pre TRT levels if I were to stop. On the thyroid side, I am pretty sure it is just a matter of tapering off the Armour, then the thyroid gets back to its pre Armour state.
The whole issue is whether I really need TRT or not.
Wise Guy
01-23-2009, 01:17 PM
Once I got my DHEA to the 500-600 range via supplementation my T took a nose-dive and I started TRT. HPTA-suppression from DHEA? Feedback-loop is bigger than we think? What? Whatever, I'm not looking going back now.
What type of aromatase inhibition where you using when you started taking enough DHEA to get your levels 500 - 600? And what where your E2 scores?
You know that even minor amounts, nonetheless major amounts, of DHEA are enough to illicit quite a bit of aromatization, right? Enough to saturate T receptors with estradiol, and certainly enough to illicit low testosterone.
JanSz
01-23-2009, 01:46 PM
This guy, Dr Lambert T Parker, is supposed to be an expert in the field, he lectures at doctor conventions, etc. I don't know why he doesn't do the normal testosterone injections + hcg like 99% of other docs do.
Again, I am wondering how long it would take me to get back to pre TRT levels if I were to stop. On the thyroid side, I am pretty sure it is just a matter of tapering off the Armour, then the thyroid gets back to its pre Armour state.
The whole issue is whether I really need TRT or not.
Just to be clear about:
99% doctors do squat about testosterone.
The little fraction that do anything about testosterode do squat abot HCG and AI.
The remaining doctors (that you can count on one hand) do better.
Some %% of those (that you counted on one hand) do much much better.
.
.
JanSz
01-23-2009, 01:51 PM
This guy, Dr Lambert T Parker, is supposed to be an expert in the field, he lectures at doctor conventions, etc. I don't know why he doesn't do the normal testosterone injections + hcg like 99% of other docs do.
Again, I am wondering how long it would take me to get back to pre TRT levels if I were to stop. On the thyroid side, I am pretty sure it is just a matter of tapering off the Armour, then the thyroid gets back to its pre Armour state.
The whole issue is whether I really need TRT or not.
You are tired. Take a breader.
Do not do much, just get your waist to below 34"
then take another look at TRT, thyroid and all the rest.
.
.
What type of aromatase inhibition where you using when you started taking enough DHEA to get your levels 500 - 600? And what where your E2 scores?
You know that even minor amounts, nonetheless major amounts, of DHEA are enough to illicit quite a bit of aromatization, right? Enough to saturate T receptors with estradiol, and certainly enough to illicit low testosterone.
My DHEA level was 340 (107-745) in April 2008, before TRT.
In August it was 306, after several months of taking 25 mg a day. At that time my estradiol was 29 (0-53). I was doing test cream at that time, can't remember the dosage.
Haven't had estradiol, DHT or testosterone tested since I started taking these larger doses of things in December. This testing will be in early February, if the insurance will pay. United Health has been really getting pissed about all the bloodwork I have been getting. That's why I only had Testosterone tested last time, and nothing else.
Like I said, I am at a loss at what to do, I haven't even turned the doctor visits or the prescriptions into UHC since they are already having trouble with the bloodwork.
That's why I said earlier that I could stop this stuff, stabilize a little, and try a product called Testoslyze, which contains 6-OXO and saw palmetto, which is purported to partially block, but not eliminate, both DHT and estradiol, thus allowing more of the raw material to convert to test. This would cost me about $50 a month.
Sorry for the rant, it's just that I am jealous of all the success stories.
chilln
01-23-2009, 05:49 PM
My DHEA level was 340 (107-745) in April 2008, before TRT.
In August it was 306, after several months of taking 25 mg a day. At that time my estradiol was 29 (0-53). I was doing test cream at that time, can't remember the dosage.
Haven't had estradiol, DHT or testosterone tested since I started taking these larger doses of things in December. This testing will be in early February, if the insurance will pay. United Health has been really getting pissed about all the bloodwork I have been getting. That's why I only had Testosterone tested last time, and nothing else.
Like I said, I am at a loss at what to do, I haven't even turned the doctor visits or the prescriptions into UHC since they are already having trouble with the bloodwork.
That's why I said earlier that I could stop this stuff, stabilize a little, and try a product called Testoslyze, which contains 6-OXO and saw palmetto, which is purported to partially block, but not eliminate, both DHT and estradiol, thus allowing more of the raw material to convert to test. This would cost me about $50 a month.
Sorry for the rant, it's just that I am jealous of all the success stories.
As a refresher: you cannot take small doses of testosterone and make any difference to your body's natural testosterone levels (due to HPTA feedback suppression)
New info: You cannot lower E2 (estradiol) to boost testosterone (free, bioavailable) levels for longer than a week, at extreme most two weeks, unless you suppress your E2 to unhealthy levels which are too low.
In other words, lowering E2 is used to leave testosterone (free, bioavailable) levels where they are, and reduce E2. This increases the gap between T and E2.
This is useful if the gap between your T and E2 is too low.
###
If you lower your E2 to unnaturally low levels, then you will boost T because your body will want to make more T to make more E2.
But that's unhealthy. That's what some bodybuilders do, and those that do aren't educated sufficiently to comprehend (and believe) the long term health degradation which results from this behavior.
JanSz
01-23-2009, 06:23 PM
My DHEA level was 340 (107-745) in April 2008, before TRT.
In August it was 306, after several months of taking 25 mg a day. At that time my estradiol was 29 (0-53). I was doing test cream at that time, can't remember the dosage.
Haven't had estradiol, DHT or testosterone tested since I started taking these larger doses of things in December. This testing will be in early February, if the insurance will pay. United Health has been really getting pissed about all the bloodwork I have been getting. That's why I only had Testosterone tested last time, and nothing else.
Like I said, I am at a loss at what to do, I haven't even turned the doctor visits or the prescriptions into UHC since they are already having trouble with the bloodwork.
That's why I said earlier that I could stop this stuff, stabilize a little, and try a product called Testoslyze, which contains 6-OXO and saw palmetto, which is purported to partially block, but not eliminate, both DHT and estradiol, thus allowing more of the raw material to convert to test. This would cost me about $50 a month.
Sorry for the rant, it's just that I am jealous of all the success stories.
$50/month
$100 (with script) can buy 30ml of 200mg/ml test
at 150mg/week this will last 40weeks=9.2months, 100/9.2=$10.86/month
Liquidex 30mg $60, should last 25 weeks or more, 60/25=10.42$/month
Or Anastrozole(liquid) cost 1/2 of above
HCG 250iu EOD about $5/month
Add shipping cost.
Looks like if you are on the budget, and have $50/month for medicine, you can do it (properly) and have a Whopper at Burger King once a month.
Wait;
once/6 months do this:
http://www.privatemdlabs.com/lab_tests.php?view=all&show=1246&category=12&search=#1246
Estradiol, Sensitive $79.99
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) Sulfate -------- $68.99
Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) -------- $119.99
Testosterone, Free and Weakly Bound -------- $89.49
79.99+68.99+119.99+89.49=358.46
358.46=59.74$/month
Forget Whopper, you can do everything properly if you can get a doctor's script plus $110/month
Save some, do DHT only once/year.
.
Use the time and look for a job with better insurance.
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My dose is more than androgel provides and that seems ok for some people, so I guess I am not understanding. I know the HPTA feedback loop, the doctor I am going to spent 30 minutes showing me the presentation he made to a group of primary care physicians about that very topic. It is just weird if he too knows about it, why is he giving me this seemingly off the wall treatment? Am I just some sort of lab rat or what? Is he trying to do some sort of weird experimental restart by giving me small amounts of test and large amounts of DHEA and pregnenolone?
I think it's a high priced proposition for us all and even then, no guarantees.
Our bodies are at the levels they want to be at for a reason. We are just trying to trick them into doing something they will fight every inch of the way.
I wish I had never started down this path, now that I am on it, it seems I am not in control of what to do next.
I understand a lot of the theory, just let me know: will I be ok if I stop?
Forget Whopper, you can do everything properly if you can get a doctor's script plus $110/month
Save some, do DHT only once/year.
.
Use the time and look for a job with better insurance.
/
/
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Haha, I am self employed, this is the best it gets. $900 a month premium, $50 per visit copay, $50 copay on most prescriptions (the good ones like Viagra, etc).
Find me a nearby doctor who understands and will prescribe it. I live in the 30th largest SMSA in the country, and there is no one here. I searched on the links you posted before on how to find one, and my doc was the only one in there who was even a real MD
Supposedly I am very lucky to be able to go to the doc I have, he is an "expert." lol
I am considering going via email to one of those Florida "clinics" but am worried what will happen if they get raided. No face to face is required.
joe143
01-23-2009, 06:44 PM
My dose is more than androgel provides and that seems ok for some people, so I guess I am not understanding. I know the HPTA feedback loop, the doctor I am going to spent 30 minutes showing me the presentation he made to a group of primary care physicians about that very topic. It is just weird if he too knows about it, why is he giving me this seemingly off the wall treatment? Am I just some sort of lab rat or what? Is he trying to do some sort of weird experimental restart by giving me small amounts of test and large amounts of DHEA and pregnenolone?
I think it's a high priced proposition for us all and even then, no guarantees.
Our bodies are at the levels they want to be at for a reason. We are just trying to trick them into doing something they will fight every inch of the way.
I wish I had never started down this path, now that I am on it, it seems I am not in control of what to do next.
I understand a lot of the theory, just let me know: will I be ok if I stop?
I disagree with that statement. Most of our levels are due to disease or age. Our bodies do not want to be at this level, they just dont have the capacity to work for whatever reason. I think the real issue is that you have not gotten your levels where you need to be hence you have not enjoyed the benefits of HRT.
joe143
01-23-2009, 06:46 PM
Haha, I am self employed, this is the best it gets. $900 a month premium, $50 per visit copay, $50 copay on most prescriptions (the good ones like Viagra, etc).
Find me a nearby doctor who understands and will prescribe it. I live in the 30th largest SMSA in the area, and there is no one here. I searched on the links you posted before on how to find one, and my doc was the only one in there who was even a real MD
Supposedly I am very lucky to be able to go to the doc I have, he is an "expert." lol
I am considering going via email to one of those Florida "clinics" but am worried what will happen if they get raided. No face to face is required.
Why not see Dr. Crisler and get proper care?
Hindsight is 20/20, now it's out of the question to spend 2-3k going to Michigan.
Everyone is dancing around my original question: is it possible I never needed this to begin with?
joe143
01-23-2009, 06:56 PM
Hindsight is 20/20, now it's out of the question to spend 2-3k going to Michigan.
Everyone is dancing around my original question: is it possible I never needed this to begin with?
Thats because there is no Right or Wrong answer to your question. Really, HRT is a personal choice. I think the majority would agree Total testosterone in the 300's is on the low side. Personaly, T in the 300s would be enough for me to want to supplement, regardless of how I felt. But thats just me, I want to enjoy the benefits of testosterone at a good level.
No one can say for sure what will happen if you come off HRT. Your levels may bounce back to pre TRT, or they may be lower. Its a big choice, I would talk to your doctor about this.
Thanks Joe! Mine wasn't even in the 300's when I started, and that's what got me going down the road I am on.
Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity to vent and I will definitely put my thoughts in writing for the doctor. It is so much easier to go in with it written down and not get sidetracked.
joe143
01-23-2009, 07:06 PM
Thanks Joe! Mine wasn't even in the 300's when I started, and that's what got me going down the road I am on.
Anyway, I appreciate the opportunity to vent and I will definitely put my thoughts in writing for the doctor. It is so much easier to go in with it written down and not get sidetracked.
Glad to help, I understand your position. Let me give you something to think about. Im young, 24. I was feeling ok, but tired, low libido, but not horriable. Sounds kinda like how you were describing yourself right? My T was probably low for a year or two before i noticed it, in that time I have started to develop Osteopenia. Luckily, I caught it and getting my hormones optimized should correct the situation. My point is just cause your T is low, and you can "deal" with it, there might be hidden damages to your health. I think your problem is that you just have not gotten your hormones optimized yet, seeing as your last T level was in the 300s on HRT. Please think about your situation before jumping to a decision.
I feel exactly as you describe, in fact I have felt like this ever since I was slightly older than you are now. I am betting I have had low T most of my adult life. Even when we were younger, my wife and I had sex maybe once amonth. Now, fast forward, I have not had sex to fruition with my wife in over 3 years, even with the viagra I tried once, I could not reach fruition. The viagra itself worked great, I had a raging boner within 25 minutes of taking it without even having any stimulation of any kind! lol
I promise I will do that Joe. I just am angry there aren't many doctors who give a flying you know what about all the men who need help. It's a veritable gold mine, and you would think docs all over would be flocking to this practice area.
It's ashame that I might have to talk to the juicer guys at the gym about "friendly" doctors. It makes me feel like a scumbag, but that might be the only way to find a doc who is willing to prescribe injectables in my area.
JanSz
01-23-2009, 07:48 PM
Haha, I am self employed, this is the best it gets. $900 a month premium, $50 per visit copay, $50 copay on most prescriptions (the good ones like Viagra, etc).
Find me a nearby doctor who understands and will prescribe it. I live in the 30th largest SMSA in the country, and there is no one here. I searched on the links you posted before on how to find one, and my doc was the only one in there who was even a real MD
Supposedly I am very lucky to be able to go to the doc I have, he is an "expert." lol
I am considering going via email to one of those Florida "clinics" but am worried what will happen if they get raided. No face to face is required.
Looking for MD is often mistake.
Better luck with OD, Osteopath.
Look for non-American educaded, immigrants, indians, russians, chinese, hardly speaking English. Small office on the other side of rairoad tracks. You have to tell them exactly what you want.
They will not tell you that you are lucky that you can talk to them, (not for a year or two).
.
.,