Vote!!!

[GirlyMan]

In the spirit of my fellow Free Statesman MattTaylor's action last month (we both live in Maryland, if you don't follow State Nicknames), I have covered this month's expenses. In return I ask only that all of you buggers who are registered to vote, actually go VOTE!!! I don't give a shit who or what you vote for, just friggin' VOTE!!! (My apologies to the numerous non-US citizens who frequent this site, feel free to bet on the outcome at your favorite parlor).

[anyman]

Just kidding! I'll be out tomorrow myself.

[JanSz]

Vote early and vote often.

[wondering]

I will for sure, but feels somewhat empty voting for President in a state whose outcome is already determined by NYC.

But local / state elections are impacted.



In the spirit of my fellow Free Statesman MattTaylor's action last month (we both live in Maryland, if you don't follow State Nicknames), I have covered this month's expenses. In return I ask only that all of you buggers who are registered to vote, actually go VOTE!!! I don't give a shit who or what you vote for, just friggin' VOTE!!! (My apologies to the numerous non-US citizens who frequent this site, feel free to bet on the outcome at http://www.betfair.com/ or http://www.intrade.com/ or your favorite betting parlor).

[anyman]

I will for sure, but feels somewhat empty voting for President in a state whose outcome is already determined by NYC.

But local / state elections are impacted.

I'm in the same boat. What is the point of a presidential election in NY when we have the NYC (what I'd like to call them is none too PC!) people voting en mass for whoever will give the best benefits. Wonderful. I can see my tax bill rocket even higher!

[JanSz]

I'm in the same boat. What is the point of a presidential election in NY when we have the NYC (what I'd like to call them is none too PC!) people voting en mass for whoever will give the best benefits. Wonderful. I can see my tax bill rocket even higher!

My mexican lanscaping crew have already voted, including some dead ones.

Not sure if my vote will make much difference.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q-6H4xOUrs&feature=related

[hardasnails1973]

People in PA are ones that are going to make or break this election..I am voting ..For you well I am not going to get into that because its a heated topic. If either one of them get elected they all lie out their ass telling you one thing and then turn around do something totally different..

[joe143]

People in PA are ones that are going to make or break this election..I am voting ..For you well I am not going to get into that because its a heated topic. If either one of them get elected they all lie out their ass telling you one thing and then turn around do something totally different..

Sounds like politics in general lol

[JanSz]

People in PA are ones that are going to make or break this election..I am voting ..For you well I am not going to get into that because its a heated topic. If either one of them get elected they all lie out their ass telling you one thing and then turn around do something totally different..

This statement was true from beginning of this nation until last election.

Now we are facing old lies vs new brand of lies.

Just because they are new does not makem them any better.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Stalin once said "A Capitalist will sell you the rope to hang him with."
He was ready to be the hang man.
No, we do it all by our selves.

[Bulldog]

I will be going to vote later this morning.

Here are a few things that I think need to be changed before anything will really change in this country.


All politicians should be limited to no more than two terms in any position and then they must not be able to run for any other position for 12 years. This will help get rid of the "life time politicians" who have never held a job in the private sector.

No politician should make more than the average salary of the people that they represent.

They should have to get their health care through private companies just like everyone else instead of having their own health care system. Changing everyone over to THEIR system is not the answer.

They should not be able to vote on their own salaries and benefits. Those things should be voted on by the people that they represent.

They should have to contribute to and pull from social security like everyone else instead of having their own retirement plans where they continue to get huge amounts of money for the rest of their lives.


None of this will ever happen but I think that it must for anything to ever change.

[dot1]

I did my civic duty, took less than 15 minutes.:D

[Wise Guy]

In the spirit of my fellow Free Statesman MattTaylor's action last month (we both live in Maryland, if you don't follow State Nicknames), I have covered this month's expenses. In return I ask only that all of you buggers who are registered to vote, actually go VOTE!!! I don't give a shit who or what you vote for, just friggin' VOTE!!! (My apologies to the numerous non-US citizens who frequent this site, feel free to bet on the outcome at your favorite parlor).

Awesome! Thanks.

And yep, I hit the polls :)

[snook]

Done. Walked right in with no wait. Electronic ballot was absolutely fool-proof...although I am sure there will be some news about disenfranchisement due to its interface.

On a side note: I noticed the candidates were not shown with full names. This is a change from past elections. Short names and nicknames are now in use.

[brandO]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efKguI0NFek

"voting is meaningless"

[JanSz]

I will be going to vote later this morning.

Here are a few things that I think need to be changed before anything will really change in this country.


All politicians should be limited to no more than two terms in any position and then they must not be able to run for any other position for 12 years. This will help get rid of the "life time politicians" who have never held a job in the private sector.

No politician should make more than the average salary of the people that they represent.

They should have to get their health care through private companies just like everyone else instead of having their own health care system. Changing everyone over to THEIR system is not the answer.

They should not be able to vote on their own salaries and benefits. Those things should be voted on by the people that they represent.

They should have to contribute to and pull from social security like everyone else instead of having their own retirement plans where they continue to get huge amounts of money for the rest of their lives.


None of this will ever happen but I think that it must for anything to ever change.

NYC 3x term as we speak

The way it looks up until this morning
I will not be surprised if on the end of second presidential term we will have either

third term comming
or
Martial law that suspends elections until further notice.
.
.

[Bulldog]

I went and voted at 10 AM. Took about a half hour.

[cpeil2]

Absentee ballot is the way to go.

[Bulldog]

Absentee ballot is the way to go.

I think I might do that next time.

[Diancecht]

Absentee is easier! Why stand in line?

New York traditional votes +12 Democrat. I dont know about NYC itself

Ohio and other battleground states are the key

[gman]

the sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Here in Virginia Beach, we are haviing huge turnouts. I went at 6:30am and there were 300 people in line. I went back at 10 and only had to wait an hour to vote.

[snook]

Absentee is easier! Why stand in line?

New York traditional votes +12 Democrat. I dont know about NYC itself

Ohio and other battleground states are the key


Yep...actually a little more now (+15).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cook_Partisan_Voting_Index

[brandO]

i just voted i was the only one there! 1 minute wait!

[gman]

1 hour wait at 10am in Virginia Beach at my precinct

My secretary waited 3 hours in line in her precinct.

[JanSz]

This is a letter of the Communist party of Saint-Petersburg, Russia, to their American comrades.


CPUSA: cpusa@cpusa.orgЭтот e-mail защищен от спам-ботов. Для его просмотра в вашем браузере должна быть включена поддержка
235 West 23rd Street
New York NY 10011
ph: 212-989-4994



http://www.kplo.ru:80/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=651&Itemid=5

The reference of Communists of Petersburg (Russia) to communists and the left forces of the USA
“To comrades of the Communist Party of the USA and also to Angela Davis, Leonard Peltier, Joe Maury – the man from the 5th Avenue, to the deceased Dr. Charles Hider relatives and Din Rid relatives, аnd Samanty Smith relatives

Dear comrades,

The communists from the city of Great October Socialistic Revolution - from Lenin city Petersburg-Leningrad (Russia) are speaking to you. In the name of all the Russian communists we call you to debar the evil's forces candidate John McCaine from the winning on the United States presidential election. Certainly, we understand that Barrack Obama is not a lot better than McCaine and he is a capitalist and counter-revolutionary too. But nevertheless Obama is a rational person; he wants American armed forces to de-escalate from Iraq. Besides, he is ready for the negotiations with Ugo Chaves and Cuba. However, Obama criticizes Russians less than McCaine.

We Petersburg communists think that John McCaine`s election victory will lead to the Third World war. This gloomy old man rather like Dr. Evil from the movie had learned how to kill the people since Vietnam. Surely he wants to attack the whole world – Iraq, Cuba, Venezuela, Russia and to launch nuclear rockets to the four corners of the earth. Lenin had taught all the communists to struggle for peace. Don’t you think that the fight of American communists against John McCain is a part of such struggle?

We don`t want to tamper with domestic affairs of the USA! But we are eager to stop the war, because John McCain is a war. We want to be on friendly terms with ordinary Americans, but as we understand John McCain wishes to turn Russia into the colony and capture Siberia with its natural resources.
Comrades! John McCain is a fascist; he will torment the American toilers, humble Afro-American people, ban all the USA communist organizations and help Ku Klux Klan.

Thus we as internationalists are ready to assist the Communist Party of the USA and other USA progressive tradition with the struggle against McCaine.

Now we have to express our opinion as for Barrack Obama. At the beginning his programme was breakthrough. But he gave up practically all his good ideas later on under the pressure of the Pentagon capitalists. Nevertheless, if you help him to win you will be able to influence his politics and take your chairs in administration. Though there will be no war. Remember about the peace in the whole world.

Our advice is you comrades organize Afro-American march past Obama’s head office. Let the Afro-Americans demand from black-skinned Obama to come back to progressive political platform. He will be forced to bend to public pressure. Tell Obama, that Soviet Union stood up always for the rights of the USA black population. That is why Obama has no right to criticize Russia!

Besides, comrades, you should nominate own candidate to presidential election. Finally, when the communist will become a President of the USA? We are just dreaming of these times! And now let`s unite our power and power of whole world labor against McCaine who had been killing children in Vietnam.

If you want you can visit Saint-Petersburg seminar regarding election campaigning. Wish you good luck! Let’s choose the less of two evils!”

Central Committee of a party Communists of Petersburg and Leningrad region

[gman]

WTF! lol

[Shootist]

It took me 5 minutes (including the walk). There were two lines.....A-K and L-Z. The A-K line went out the door and down the sidewalk. The L-Z line had no waiting. Explain that one.

[Dr. John Crisler]

In the spirit of my fellow Free Statesman MattTaylor's action last month (we both live in Maryland, if you don't follow State Nicknames), I have covered this month's expenses. In return I ask only that all of you buggers who are registered to vote, actually go VOTE!!! I don't give a shit who or what you vote for, just friggin' VOTE!!! (My apologies to the numerous non-US citizens who frequent this site, feel free to bet on the outcome at your favorite parlor).
You are SUCH a BADASS!!!

[Dr. John Crisler]

Vote early and vote often.
...especially if you live in Ohio--but ONLY if you vote for Obama.

[Dr. John Crisler]

My mexican lanscaping crew have already voted, including some dead ones.Not sure if my vote will make much difference.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q-6H4xOUrs&feature=related
Let me guess...

[Dr. John Crisler]

Done. Walked right in with no wait. Electronic ballot was absolutely fool-proof...although I am sure there will be some news about disenfranchisement due to its interface.

On a side note: I noticed the candidates were not shown with full names. This is a change from past elections. Short names and nicknames are now in use.

We are not allowed to speak one of the presidential candidates' full name.

[Dr. John Crisler]

This is a letter of the Communist party of Saint-Petersburg, Russia, to their American comrades.


CPUSA: cpusa@cpusa.orgЭтот e-mail защищен от спам-ботов. Для его просмотра в вашем браузере должна быть включена поддержка
235 West 23rd Street
New York NY 10011
ph: 212-989-4994



http://www.kplo.ru:80/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=651&Itemid=5

The reference of Communists of Petersburg (Russia) to communists and the left forces of the USA
“To comrades of the Communist Party of the USA and also to Angela Davis, Leonard Peltier, Joe Maury – the man from the 5th Avenue, to the deceased Dr. Charles Hider relatives and Din Rid relatives, аnd Samanty Smith relatives

Dear comrades,

The communists from the city of Great October Socialistic Revolution - from Lenin city Petersburg-Leningrad (Russia) are speaking to you. In the name of all the Russian communists we call you to debar the evil's forces candidate John McCaine from the winning on the United States presidential election. Certainly, we understand that Barrack Obama is not a lot better than McCaine and he is a capitalist and counter-revolutionary too. But nevertheless Obama is a rational person; he wants American armed forces to de-escalate from Iraq. Besides, he is ready for the negotiations with Ugo Chaves and Cuba. However, Obama criticizes Russians less than McCaine.

We Petersburg communists think that John McCaine`s election victory will lead to the Third World war. This gloomy old man rather like Dr. Evil from the movie had learned how to kill the people since Vietnam. Surely he wants to attack the whole world – Iraq, Cuba, Venezuela, Russia and to launch nuclear rockets to the four corners of the earth. Lenin had taught all the communists to struggle for peace. Don’t you think that the fight of American communists against John McCain is a part of such struggle?

We don`t want to tamper with domestic affairs of the USA! But we are eager to stop the war, because John McCain is a war. We want to be on friendly terms with ordinary Americans, but as we understand John McCain wishes to turn Russia into the colony and capture Siberia with its natural resources.
Comrades! John McCain is a fascist; he will torment the American toilers, humble Afro-American people, ban all the USA communist organizations and help Ku Klux Klan.

Thus we as internationalists are ready to assist the Communist Party of the USA and other USA progressive tradition with the struggle against McCaine.

Now we have to express our opinion as for Barrack Obama. At the beginning his programme was breakthrough. But he gave up practically all his good ideas later on under the pressure of the Pentagon capitalists. Nevertheless, if you help him to win you will be able to influence his politics and take your chairs in administration. Though there will be no war. Remember about the peace in the whole world.

Our advice is you comrades organize Afro-American march past Obama’s head office. Let the Afro-Americans demand from black-skinned Obama to come back to progressive political platform. He will be forced to bend to public pressure. Tell Obama, that Soviet Union stood up always for the rights of the USA black population. That is why Obama has no right to criticize Russia!

Besides, comrades, you should nominate own candidate to presidential election. Finally, when the communist will become a President of the USA? We are just dreaming of these times! And now let`s unite our power and power of whole world labor against McCaine who had been killing children in Vietnam.

If you want you can visit Saint-Petersburg seminar regarding election campaigning. Wish you good luck! Let’s choose the less of two evils!”

Central Committee of a party Communists of Petersburg and Leningrad region
I think that is about to happen.

[Bulldog]

I think that is about to happen.

I'm affraid you may be right.

[joe143]

I think that is about to happen.

Yup, thats how i feel.

[may19th2001]

I know who was going to win, lets keep our fingures crossed and hope for the best.
That is all we can do.
Lets also hope that Obama leaves our compound medications alone, he did say they need more investigation at one pint.

Gov Bill Richardson when I saw him goes you vote for Obama even my dad (Who I hear from ocl.) who is in polotics and is a Friend of Mr Bill Richardson called me to tell me who are you voting for if you want another Bush vot Mccain etc etc.

I think we would be best off if we got one of them Private parties in office sometime, but they do not stand a chance. I do not understand why the minority vote when it is not even going to make a diffrence but for another to loose.

No one left me alone....

Now lets see what happens in the next few years, oh yea and my Boss says Obama is folowing JFK's foot steps yea right.

Enough ranting and raving, lets just keep keep our fingures crossed and hope for the best.

[Bulldog]

I'm hoping and praying for the best. Especially that the economy doesn't go completely in the tank and put us into a huge depression.

[Shootist]

Don't look at me.....I voted like the rest of Louisiana. I've decided I need to stop working so hard. If I make more money the Govt. will probably start taking it.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Don't look at me.....I voted like the rest of Louisiana. I've decided I need to stop working so hard. If I make more money the Govt. will probably start taking it.
Yes, even if you don't pay taxes you can still get a "tax break"--a free check amounting to welfare the rest of us who are working our butts off have to pay for.

We are rewardig those who do wrong, and punishing those who do right. We cannot hope to survive, much less flourish, that way.

Of course, what good is a "tax break" for the rest of us when we have to pay more for everything we buy because of the higher taxes and regulatory requirements imposed on the businesses we do business with?

[hardasnails1973]

ITs all about promises promises then they turn around and screw you really good. Change is one the way yep right into the dark ages. It was only matter of time before rome fell as soon will the US.. That little asian I been keeping tucked away for a while in japan may come in handy ..

[scottyo]

We are not allowed to speak one of the presidential candidates' full name.

With all do respect, why the Flying ^#()& does that matter?
And in reply to Janz....the cold war ended buddy. Let it go. Communism is not the devil. If you want to go anti russia (which is no longer communist) and anti-china (which still 'theoretically' is; although they are more totalitarian free-marketist than anything); then let your reasons be something other than they are 'dirty red bastards'.

Honestly....the level of political knowledge and debate on this board is kind of scary. I respect your own views, but really?

We are now a 'communist' or 'socialist' nation because we are "contemplating" restructuring the tax code? If you want to be laissez faire free marketers fine, but then be consistent. Stop the government subsidies of big business. Stop the tax breaks, loop holes etc. for big business. Stop giving oil companies money. Because that IS NOT laissez faire capitalism. If your going to try to have people stomach 'trickle down economics' that is another question...because trickle down is not laissez faire capitalism, its artificially propping up the top in the 'hope' that the bottom is well taken care of as well. Since the top got a lot richer and the bottom did not, it looks like their was a kink in the trickle down pipe BEFORE the housing crash even happened.

Now, if people want to legitimately and rationally discuss the consequences of the election in terms of how it will affect compounded pharmacy issues, I am all ears. But can we avoid the speculation that 'big government' and 'nationalized health care' automatically equals no compounding anymore? I mean, nationalized health care is NOT what has been proposed anyways, so is there anything else in Obama's health plan specifically in terms of compounded products and HRT.

I am very interested in THAT question.

Damn, sometimes it sounds like I'm watching FOX NEWS when I read some of these posts.

[snook]

With all do respect, why the Flying ^#()& does that matter?
And in reply to Janz....the cold war ended buddy. Let it go. Communism is not the devil. If you want to go anti russia (which is no longer communist) and anti-china (which still 'theoretically' is; although they are more totalitarian free-marketist than anything); then let your reasons be something other than they are 'dirty red bastards'.

Honestly....the level of political knowledge and debate on this board is kind of scary. I respect your own views, but really?

We are now a 'communist' or 'socialist' nation because we are "contemplating" restructuring the tax code? If you want to be laissez faire free marketers fine, but then be consistent. Stop the government subsidies of big business. Stop the tax breaks, loop holes etc. for big business. Stop giving oil companies money. Because that IS NOT laissez faire capitalism. If your going to try to have people stomach 'trickle down economics' that is another question...because trickle down is not laissez faire capitalism, its artificially propping up the top in the 'hope' that the bottom is well taken care of as well. Since the top got a lot richer and the bottom did not, it looks like their was a kink in the trickle down pipe BEFORE the housing crash even happened.

Now, if people want to legitimately and rationally discuss the consequences of the election in terms of how it will affect compounded pharmacy issues, I am all ears. But can we avoid the speculation that 'big government' and 'nationalized health care' automatically equals no compounding anymore? I mean, nationalized health care is NOT what has been proposed anyways, so is there anything else in Obama's health plan specifically in terms of compounded products and HRT.

I am very interested in THAT question.

Damn, sometimes it sounds like I'm watching FOX NEWS when I read some of these posts.

Your post has very wide ranging assertions and commentary so its tough to figure out where to start. I'm game though:

What makes you think Russia is no longer Communist or that the Cold War has not restarted? Haven't you been paying attention for the past two years? They are systematically building up arms and terrorist alliances to hold Eurasia hostage with access to energy (natural gas and petro). Haven't you seen manipulations of the media in Russia, or the manuevers by Putin to strong arm businesses and politicians? What about shutting the pipeline off to Ukraine? What about the poisoning of Yushchenko (President of Ukraine)? What about the military attack on Georgia/Ossettia? What about the polonium 210 poisoning of Litvinenko in London?

Oh, and what about this - from yesterday? Russia to base missiles on EU border: Medvedev
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=081105114620.ota6n5i1&show_article=1

What about this from last month? Russia test-fired two ballistic missiles - clear shot across the bow.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LD355552.htm

What about Russia providing nuclear assistance to Venezuela?
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080926060515.4f13hyhy&show_article=1

What about Russia sending a warship to the Caribbean?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4804157.ece

What about Russia threatening to seize the arctic?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/2976009/Russia-threatens-to-seize-swathe-of-Arctic.html

What about Russia testing the new TOPOL intercontinental missile?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1621970.ece


So if you still think the Cold War has ended...and not restarted, let's talk/discuss.

[GirlyMan]

I mean, nationalized health care is NOT what has been proposed anyways ...

Expanding this program to make it available to everyone is what is being proposed.

http://www.opm.gov/insure/HEALTH/index.asp

This an excellent program which works extremely well. The difficult and obvious question is how to pay for it since the Government picks up 75% of the premium cost. It clearly cannot be expanded nationally without significantly raising taxes. But it may very well be worth it.

[JanSz]

With all do respect, why the Flying ^#()& does that matter?
And in reply to Janz....the cold war ended buddy. Let it go. Communism is not the devil. If you want to go anti russia (which is no longer communist) and anti-china (which still 'theoretically' is; although they are more totalitarian free-marketist than anything); then let your reasons be something other than they are 'dirty red bastards'.

Honestly....the level of political knowledge and debate on this board is kind of scary. I respect your own views, but really?

We are now a 'communist' or 'socialist' nation because we are "contemplating" restructuring the tax code? If you want to be laissez faire free marketers fine, but then be consistent. Stop the government subsidies of big business. Stop the tax breaks, loop holes etc. for big business. Stop giving oil companies money. Because that IS NOT laissez faire capitalism. If your going to try to have people stomach 'trickle down economics' that is another question...because trickle down is not laissez faire capitalism, its artificially propping up the top in the 'hope' that the bottom is well taken care of as well. Since the top got a lot richer and the bottom did not, it looks like their was a kink in the trickle down pipe BEFORE the housing crash even happened.

Now, if people want to legitimately and rationally discuss the consequences of the election in terms of how it will affect compounded pharmacy issues, I am all ears. But can we avoid the speculation that 'big government' and 'nationalized health care' automatically equals no compounding anymore? I mean, nationalized health care is NOT what has been proposed anyways, so is there anything else in Obama's health plan specifically in terms of compounded products and HRT.

I am very interested in THAT question.

Damn, sometimes it sounds like I'm watching FOX NEWS when I read some of these posts.

November 6, 2008
President Dmitri Medvedev orders missiles deployed in Europe as world hails Obama

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5090077.ece

----------------------------------------------------
You have seen nothig yet, buddy.

"Communism is not the devil."
Just remember, you said that.



I agree. Let the Euros defend themselves. They don't like us ugly Americans. I'll start worrying after the Russians move missles back into Cuba or into Venezuela.

.

[Dr. John Crisler]

With all do respect, why the Flying ^#()& does that matter?And in reply to Janz....the cold war ended buddy. Let it go. Communism is not the devil. If you want to go anti russia (which is no longer communist) and anti-china (which still 'theoretically' is; although they are more totalitarian free-marketist than anything); then let your reasons be something other than they are 'dirty red bastards'.

Honestly....the level of political knowledge and debate on this board is kind of scary. I respect your own views, but really?

We are now a 'communist' or 'socialist' nation because we are "contemplating" restructuring the tax code? If you want to be laissez faire free marketers fine, but then be consistent. Stop the government subsidies of big business. Stop the tax breaks, loop holes etc. for big business. Stop giving oil companies money. Because that IS NOT laissez faire capitalism. If your going to try to have people stomach 'trickle down economics' that is another question...because trickle down is not laissez faire capitalism, its artificially propping up the top in the 'hope' that the bottom is well taken care of as well. Since the top got a lot richer and the bottom did not, it looks like their was a kink in the trickle down pipe BEFORE the housing crash even happened.

Now, if people want to legitimately and rationally discuss the consequences of the election in terms of how it will affect compounded pharmacy issues, I am all ears. But can we avoid the speculation that 'big government' and 'nationalized health care' automatically equals no compounding anymore? I mean, nationalized health care is NOT what has been proposed anyways, so is there anything else in Obama's health plan specifically in terms of compounded products and HRT.

I am very interested in THAT question.

Damn, sometimes it sounds like I'm watching FOX NEWS when I read some of these posts.
Doesn't it bother you that anyone who spoke the presidential candidate's name was attacked by the media for it? So, we not dare speak his holy name.

Even though the First Lady to-be went out and made comments extremely offensive to most Americans, and, after all, would be our First Lady, we are allowed to mention anything about her. BTW, I wonder what HER wardrobe is worth?

Does it bother you that a good, honest, tax paying citizen was attacked by the media for daring to ask Obama an honest question?

How about that 74% of all stories about John McCain on the news were of the attack variety, vs. 14% unfavorable to Obama? That's 5 to 1!

The same is true of late night television, but the ratio rises to 7 to 1.

The corrupt Liberal media gives the Democrats literally billions of dollars worth of free advertising. And therefore, by their extremely one-sided version of everything, is so powerful now they are actually electing our "leaders" for us.

Doesn't any of this scare you?

(If not, look for some historical parallels)

[Dr. John Crisler]

Expanding this program to make it available to everyone is what is being proposed.

http://www.opm.gov/insure/HEALTH/index.asp

This an excellent program which works extremely well. The difficult and obvious question is how to pay for it since the Government picks up 75% of the premium cost. It clearly cannot be expanded nationally without significantly raising taxes. But it may very well be worth it.

...including calling 25 years olds "children"?

[Dr. John Crisler]

With all do respect, why the Flying ^#()& does that matter?
And in reply to Janz....the cold war ended buddy. Let it go. Communism is not the devil. If you want to go anti russia (which is no longer communist) and anti-china (which still 'theoretically' is; although they are more totalitarian free-marketist than anything); then let your reasons be something other than they are 'dirty red bastards'.

Honestly....the level of political knowledge and debate on this board is kind of scary. I respect your own views, but really?

We are now a 'communist' or 'socialist' nation because we are "contemplating" restructuring the tax code? If you want to be laissez faire free marketers fine, but then be consistent. Stop the government subsidies of big business. Stop the tax breaks, loop holes etc. for big business. Stop giving oil companies money. Because that IS NOT laissez faire capitalism. If your going to try to have people stomach 'trickle down economics' that is another question...because trickle down is not laissez faire capitalism, its artificially propping up the top in the 'hope' that the bottom is well taken care of as well. Since the top got a lot richer and the bottom did not, it looks like their was a kink in the trickle down pipe BEFORE the housing crash even happened.

Now, if people want to legitimately and rationally discuss the consequences of the election in terms of how it will affect compounded pharmacy issues, I am all ears. But can we avoid the speculation that 'big government' and 'nationalized health care' automatically equals no compounding anymore? I mean, nationalized health care is NOT what has been proposed anyways, so is there anything else in Obama's health plan specifically in terms of compounded products and HRT.

I am very interested in THAT question.

Damn, sometimes it sounds like I'm watching FOX NEWS when I read some of these posts.

So, you have a problem with a news network telling both sides? Or because they are the only network that exposed SOME of the dirt on Obama?

[GirlyMan]

...including calling 25 years olds "children"?

Doesn't matter to me what they're called as long as they're covered. Pretty sure they don't care either.

[joe143]

Below are my opinions and not intended to offend anyone, just my point of view.Im very scared for the future. My family for the last 30 odd years has had a succesful electrical contracting business. Now, when i say succesful I mean we do ok, but are by no means rich. This whole concept of taxing business over $200,000 or whatever it is now is insane. Contrary to what the President-elect says, 200,000 is not a large sum of money when you are running a business. Not when you have employees to pay, benefits to take care of, materials to pay for. If this isnt socialism/communism honestly what is? We need to remember that taxing companies more isnt going to help us, companies dont have to stay in the US. Big corporations help drive America, we need them to be a world player. We also need small business. Instead of handing out welfare checks we should be encouraging small business growth and more jobs for everyone. This will do nothing but bankrupt us.

In regard to Russia, this most certainly seems like Cold War 2 to me, but with far more global and deadly implications. Russia seems determined to regain its superpower status and is aligning themselves with countries like Iran. With the US military force weakened they understand that we are not in a position to argue, much like with Georgia. I dont know what the future holds, but I think we are at a scary point in time. Thank god im a religous man.

[joe143]

Doesn't it bother you that anyone who spoke the presidential candidate's name was attacked by the media for it? So, we not dare speak his holy name.


Bothers and scares me.

[JanSz]

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=M2M1YjQyY2FkYjMwNzY5ZjdhYjZiZWExNTRjYmVjY2Y=

Over at Reason Radley Balko asks some good questions about Obama's proposed corvee for the young:

[Obama] wants to mandate 50 hours of community service per year for middle and high school students. And he's offering a $4,000 federal-funded tuition credit in exchange for 100 hours per year from college students. For most students, the latter will become a mandatory part of getting a degree, as colleges will merely raise their tuition to compensate for the vouchers.

So who gets to decide what constitutes "community service"? Who gets to decide which causes and organizations will be credit-worthy, and which ones won't?

Something tells me that you'd be more likely to get one of Obama's vouchers by going door to door for one of ACORN's living wage campaigns than, say, volunteering for a libertarian nonprofit organization that advocates against things like government-mandated community service.

Check out Rahm Emanuel's ideas too:

Jim Lindgren reads from the manifesto of Rahm Emanuel, Obama's reported new chief of staff, and finds a man who wants, among other things, "universal college access," to cut gasoline use in half, and "universal retirement savings." But far more creepy is the centerpiece of what Emanuel simply calls "The Plan:" universal citizen service.

From Emanuel's book:

All Americans between the ages of 18 and 25 should be asked to serve their country by going through three months of basic civil defense training and community service. This is not a draft, nor is it military. Young people will be trained not as soldiers, but simply as citizens who understand their responsibilities in the event of a natural disaster, an epidemic or a terrorist attack. Universal citizen service will bring Americans of every background together to make America safer and more united in common purpose.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like a liberal indoctrination ceremony/cult of some sort.

[snook]

Expanding this program to make it available to everyone is what is being proposed.

http://www.opm.gov/insure/HEALTH/index.asp

This an excellent program which works extremely well. The difficult and obvious question is how to pay for it since the Government picks up 75% of the premium cost. It clearly cannot be expanded nationally without significantly raising taxes. But it may very well be worth it.

Not being a member of this plan (me), explain what is so excellent about this program. I ask because people who contribute very little to something, but reap a lot of benefit often praise things as excellent...disregarding the distinct possibility of wastefulness, inefficiency, and lack of overall effectiveness. Everyone has different perceptions of quality and value.

Personally I chose the lowest cost offering from my company, which was Kaiser Permanente. From a value perspective they are okay, not excellent. Most things are covered, but I am stuck in their small network of doctors. They also provide care, by-the-book. The difference is, I made a conscious decision to go with them and can opt out and make a financial decision to pay more for a more comprehensive plan. I do not want the government making that decision for me. I don't want them managing my plans or access to care. In fact I don't want them involved in any of my medical decisions. The government is basically a no-value-add middle man that is a barrier to innovation and efficiency.

[joe143]

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like a liberal indoctrination ceremony/cult of some sort.

Yup, good luck getting me to go along with "the plan". I dont think Americans really understand who they have voted in. His promises sound great dont they. I was caught up in them at first, universal health care for the uninsured, wow, sounds great. Who is gonna pay for it? Now we know the answer,small business.

[Bulldog]

Not being a member of this plan (me), explain what is so excellent about this program. I ask because people who contribute very little to something, but reap a lot of benefit often praise things as excellent...disregarding the distinct possibility of wastefulness, inefficiency, and lack of overall effectiveness. Everyone has different perceptions of quality and value.

Personally I chose the lowest cost offering from my company, which was Kaiser Permanente. From a value perspective they are okay, not excellent. Most things are covered, but I am stuck in their small network of doctors. They also provide care, by-the-book. The difference is, I made a conscious decision to go with them and can opt out and make a financial decision to pay more for a more comprehensive plan. I do not want the government making that decision for me. I don't want them managing my plans or access to care. In fact I don't want them involved in any of my medical decisions. The government is basically a no-value-add middle man that is a barrier to innovation and efficiency.

I absolutely agree 100%

[Dr. John Crisler]

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=M2M1YjQyY2FkYjMwNzY5ZjdhYjZiZWExNTRjYmVjY2Y=

Over at Reason Radley Balko asks some good questions about Obama's proposed corvee for the young:

[Obama] wants to mandate 50 hours of community service per year for middle and high school students. And he's offering a $4,000 federal-funded tuition credit in exchange for 100 hours per year from college students. For most students, the latter will become a mandatory part of getting a degree, as colleges will merely raise their tuition to compensate for the vouchers.

So who gets to decide what constitutes "community service"? Who gets to decide which causes and organizations will be credit-worthy, and which ones won't?

Something tells me that you'd be more likely to get one of Obama's vouchers by going door to door for one of ACORN's living wage campaigns than, say, volunteering for a libertarian nonprofit organization that advocates against things like government-mandated community service.

Check out Rahm Emanuel's ideas too:

Jim Lindgren reads from the manifesto of Rahm Emanuel, Obama's reported new chief of staff, and finds a man who wants, among other things, "universal college access," to cut gasoline use in half, and "universal retirement savings." But far more creepy is the centerpiece of what Emanuel simply calls "The Plan:" universal citizen service.

From Emanuel's book:

All Americans between the ages of 18 and 25 should be asked to serve their country by going through three months of basic civil defense training and community service. This is not a draft, nor is it military. Young people will be trained not as soldiers, but simply as citizens who understand their responsibilities in the event of a natural disaster, an epidemic or a terrorist attack. Universal citizen service will bring Americans of every background together to make America safer and more united in common purpose.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like a liberal indoctrination ceremony/cult of some sort.
Let me guess: ACORN?

Don't laugh: your tax dollars already go to finance this group which is being heavily investigated for criminal acts, whose members actively engage in business terrorism and vote fraud.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Yup, good luck getting me to go along with "the plan". I dont think Americans really understand who they have voted in. His promises sound great dont they. I was caught up in them at first, universal health care for the uninsured, wow, sounds great. Who is gonna pay for it? Now we know the answer,small business.
That is because we were not allowed to ask hiim honest questions, or even to explain his own statements.

Anyone--whether news media or citizenry--who did was attacked for it.

Terrifying. Aplying historical perspective makes it even more so.

[GirlyMan]

Not being a member of this plan (me), explain what is so excellent about this program.

Choice.

2 dozen different plans to choose from (including Kaiser, btw) based on your personal situation. Can change plans every year to reflect your current situation. Cannot be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions.


I do not want the government making that decision for me. I don't want them managing my plans or access to care. In fact I don't want them involved in any of my medical decisions. The government is basically a no-value-add middle man that is a barrier to innovation and efficiency.

The only role Government plays in this program is ensuring that the plans cannot deny coverage for pre-existing conditions and picking up 75% of the premium cost. Insurance companies decide on their own whether to participate in the program or not.

[scottyo]

Honestly? The cold war was between NATO and the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is GONE. If you want to talk about military conflicts or potential conflicts with Russia, I said that was fair game. But in the future, please don't link to sites that are "Matt Drudge's *****" (as he himself proclaims) even if it just to a news portal.

First of all, the situation in Georgia is not just a simple matter of Russian aggression; this is no longer a black and white evil/good dichotomy. They were provoked, look back to Kosovo for the precedent. YES WHAT THEY DID WAS WRONG, YES they exercised to much force, YES Putin is a punk biatch but does that mean......the COLD WAR is on?

NO.

Russia is pissed at US. Not at all of NATO. They are posturing just as the Bush adminstration has been posturing for years. Putin feeds off nationalism just as Chavez does; the best thing is not to escalate matters by posturing but by figuring out real pragmatic answers WITH our allies.

Russia has been testing weapons...so have we. We've been developing new types of nukes. We are talking about a Missile Defense System. We have been talking about expanding NATO right into Georgia, of course they are going to feel threatened. This does not mean that its not the RIGHT THING TO DO, but it does mean that there are going to be repercussions.

Now that we actually have a president looking to alternative fuels, we might break the Russian/Middle Eastern/Columbia stranglehold on energy. That in itself will fuel Russia's fall from its 'return to power'.

Despite all Russia's posturing, their economic system is STILL CAPITALISTIC (thus, not Soviet Union, thus THE cold war is not 'on' again. maybe something new is, maybe not). Russia's bargaining power and world status will drop significantly once our own status rises with the new administration (either candidate would have helped that....anybody is better than Bush in teh world's eyes. But Obama sits even better than McCain. Much better, even in the eyes of most of our socio- and economic allies like Brazil, England, Chile, Mexico etc. not to mention our other pragmatic alliances).



But if you think the answer to every problem is American military might, well....this discussion won't go far. The phrase is walk softly and carry a big stick. Its not (as Bush did) "walk softly and smack everyone with your American dick".

[snook]

Choice.

2 dozen different plans to choose from (including Kaiser, btw) based on your personal situation. Can change plans every year to reflect your current situation. Cannot be denied coverage for pre-existing conditions.



But your employees cannot.

I am not a business owner or an employer; I am employed by one of those large, nasty, evil corporations that supposedly don't pay taxes. ;) We (employees of this company) have 5 plans to choose from. I've got the freedom to choose a plan they offer or I can go find work elsewhere and perhaps find another plan. Doesn't really matter for me, other than for catastrophic concerns. That is truly what health insurance should be for anyhow.

I pay for 75%+ of my health costs out of pocket because they don't cover HRT worth a damn. I pay 100% for meds and to see the good doctor. Insurance only covers the blood work.

[GirlyMan]

I am not a business owner or an employer; I am employed by one of those large, nasty, evil corporations that supposedly don't pay taxes. ;) We (employees of this company) have 5 plans to choose from. I've got the freedom to choose a plan they offer or I can go find work elsewhere and perhaps find another plan. Doesn't really matter for me, other than for catastrophic concerns. That is truly what health insurance should be for anyhow.

I pay for 75%+ of my health costs out of pocket because they don't cover HRT worth a damn. I pay 100% for meds and to see the good doctor. Insurance only covers the blood work.

My bad. I confused you with a different poster. Please see my previous (now edited) post. And you might want to read the program a little further. It is probably little different than what your company provides except it provides more options and the Government likely pays a larger share of the premium than your employer does.

[scottyo]

So, you have a problem with a news network telling both sides? Or because they are the only network that exposed SOME of the dirt on Obama?

If your telling me FOX NEWS is the network that tells both sides, well, I think somebody has been drinking the "fair and balanced" cool-aid a little to much.

It strikes me as Odd that fox news is the one pushing the media bias buttons when they are thew worst of all.

This liberal media bias think just makes me shake my head. You can't cover up for Palin's ridiculousness (even Fox NEWS talking about it now. She didnt even know AFRICA was a CONTINENT and not a country), simply by saying its media bias.

the media liked Obama better. Want to know why? Because he is articulate, intelligent, TALKS ABOUT THE ISSUES, makes rational arguments, makes probing insights etc.

And it looks like America liked him better too. Its nice when democracy works for once. I myself think Plato had it right....

Let's examine the closing week prior to the election. Obama talked about a closing argument. What is an argument? A set of propositions or premises arranged in a logical fashion to make a rational point.

What did McCain/Palin do? They simply shouted louder about "terrorist" "communist" "spread the wealth". Was there an actual rational position anywhere in their talk? Did they critique how Obama's plan actually equaled 'spreading the wealth around'. DId they offer a rival economic, foreign, domestic, etc. policy with any real substance too it?

I think im done from this thread. I don't want to piss people off and I know politics (especially now) is a hot button issue. I especially don't want to piss you off Dr. John, so I'll stop.

you can have your views. I don't I can convince you. I would recommend looking into other news organizations than FOX NEWS, even if its simply picking up fairly middle of the road newspapers (not the Post, and say, not the NY Times since that will be too 'liberal' im sure.)

So i'll just say, gotta love free speech. Even if you hate the speech your interlocuter is giving right back at ya.

[snook]

Honestly? The cold war was between NATO and the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is GONE. If you want to talk about military conflicts or potential conflicts with Russia, I said that was fair game. But in the future, please don't link to sites that are "Matt Drudge's *****" (as he himself proclaims) even if it just to a news portal.

First of all, the situation in Georgia is not just a simple matter of Russian aggression; this is no longer a black and white evil/good dichotomy. They were provoked, look back to Kosovo for the precedent. YES WHAT THEY DID WAS WRONG, YES they exercised to much force, YES Putin is a punk biatch but does that mean......the COLD WAR is on?

NO.

Russia is pissed at US. Not at all of NATO. They are posturing just as the Bush adminstration has been posturing for years. Putin feeds off nationalism just as Chavez does; the best thing is not to escalate matters by posturing but by figuring out real pragmatic answers WITH our allies.

Russia has been testing weapons...so have we. We've been developing new types of nukes. We are talking about a Missile Defense System. We have been talking about expanding NATO right into Georgia, of course they are going to feel threatened. This does not mean that its not the RIGHT THING TO DO, but it does mean that there are going to be repercussions.

Now that we actually have a president looking to alternative fuels, we might break the Russian/Middle Eastern/Columbia stranglehold on energy. That in itself will fuel Russia's fall from its 'return to power'.

Despite all Russia's posturing, their economic system is STILL CAPITALISTIC (thus, not Soviet Union, thus THE cold war is not 'on' again. maybe something new is, maybe not). Russia's bargaining power and world status will drop significantly once our own status rises with the new administration (either candidate would have helped that....anybody is better than Bush in teh world's eyes. But Obama sits even better than McCain. Much better, even in the eyes of most of our socio- and economic allies like Brazil, England, Chile, Mexico etc. not to mention our other pragmatic alliances).



But if you think the answer to every problem is American military might, well....this discussion won't go far. The phrase is walk softly and carry a big stick. Its not (as Bush did) "walk softly and smack everyone with your American dick".

I've worked with three people from the former Soviet Union (including eastern block), and what they say is no where near your impression. They still have family there and occasionally go back. Russia is oligopolistic, with the Kremlin influencing nearly all strategic decisions. Business are not free from government involvement and corruption to any degree. The KGB still exists 100%, they just renamed it to FSB.

I disagree vehemently with your assertion (rationalization) that the Russian attack on Georgia was provoked. They were looking for an excuse to impose their will on a weak county, aimed directly at influencing former states not to work with the West. They attempted exactly zero diplomatic efforts to reconcile their 'differences'. I know why, because it was all hogwash.

Russia has no foundation to their economy outside of oil. When oil is $70 or below, they have no viable source of income. They knew the well was drying and needed to provoke an international event to drive the price of oil back up. (which is also why they are buddying with Iran and Venezuela) They are manipulative and use military might to cover their egregious abuse of human rights and lack of real economy. They keep their citizens and neighbors in fear using the iron fist.

I'll pass on your rhetoric dealing with the war(s), unless you want to start a new thread.

If you want to discredit the material in the links go for it, but do not simply dismiss a point because you have some preconceived notion of a lack of objectivity. Every single one of the points I brought up can be substantiated 10x elsewhere. I searched for items I could remember off the top of my head and used the first link. It's not hard when the topic is Russian aggression.

[snook]

If your telling me FOX NEWS is the network that tells both sides, well, I think somebody has been drinking the "fair and balanced" cool-aid a little to much.

It strikes me as Odd that fox news is the one pushing the media bias buttons when they are thew worst of all.

This liberal media bias think just makes me shake my head. You can't cover up for Palin's ridiculousness (even Fox NEWS talking about it now. She didnt even know AFRICA was a CONTINENT and not a country), simply by saying its media bias.

the media liked Obama better. Want to know why? Because he is articulate, intelligent, TALKS ABOUT THE ISSUES, makes rational arguments, makes probing insights etc.

And it looks like America liked him better too. Its nice when democracy works for once. I myself think Plato had it right....

Let's examine the closing week prior to the election. Obama talked about a closing argument. What is an argument? A set of propositions or premises arranged in a logical fashion to make a rational point.

What did McCain/Palin do? They simply shouted louder about "terrorist" "communist" "spread the wealth". Was there an actual rational position anywhere in their talk? Did they critique how Obama's plan actually equaled 'spreading the wealth around'. DId they offer a rival economic, foreign, domestic, etc. policy with any real substance too it?

I think im done from this thread. I don't want to piss people off and I know politics (especially now) is a hot button issue. I especially don't want to piss you off Dr. John, so I'll stop.

you can have your views. I don't I can convince you. I would recommend looking into other news organizations than FOX NEWS, even if its simply picking up fairly middle of the road newspapers (not the Post, and say, not the NY Times since that will be too 'liberal' im sure.)

So i'll just say, gotta love free speech. Even if you hate the speech your interlocuter is giving right back at ya.

There are very few objective media outlets anymore. They all want viewers/buyers, but most resort to making the news and espousing their personal agendas. Time after time, studies show that Republicans get negative 'coverage' by at least a 5 to 1 margin. They are not intellectually honest and do not fairly cover the news, they attempt to make the news. They take points of view that establish a bias, thus minimizing their integrity. Fox News does have commentators/entertainers who are biased largely towards the conservative side, but as a news outlet they absolutely provide both sides of the story.

BTW, you are not pissing me off at all. I enjoy honest and healthy debate that doesn't get personal. Although I probably don't agree with most of your political persuasions I still like to read and understand other points of view.

[JanSz]

Now that we actually have a president looking to alternative fuels, we might break the Russian/Middle Eastern/Columbia stranglehold on energy. That in itself will fuel Russia's fall from its 'return to power'.


Law should be passed that every discussion on alternative fuels must start with doing energy balance using law of physics.

Too much pie in the sky when talking just about anything political,
specially when talking about energy.

[spiderRico]

Man Law #21: No religion or politics. Just a suggestion.

[joe143]

Whats wrong with a little political discussion as long as it dosnt turn into personal attacks.:)

[Dr. John Crisler]

If your telling me FOX NEWS is the network that tells both sides, well, I think somebody has been drinking the "fair and balanced" cool-aid a little to much.
It strikes me as Odd that fox news is the one pushing the media bias buttons when they are thew worst of all.

This liberal media bias think just makes me shake my head. You can't cover up for Palin's ridiculousness (even Fox NEWS talking about it now. She didnt even know AFRICA was a CONTINENT and not a country), simply by saying its media bias.

the media liked Obama better. Want to know why? Because he is articulate, intelligent, TALKS ABOUT THE ISSUES, makes rational arguments, makes probing insights etc.

And it looks like America liked him better too. Its nice when democracy works for once. I myself think Plato had it right....

Let's examine the closing week prior to the election. Obama talked about a closing argument. What is an argument? A set of propositions or premises arranged in a logical fashion to make a rational point.

What did McCain/Palin do? They simply shouted louder about "terrorist" "communist" "spread the wealth". Was there an actual rational position anywhere in their talk? Did they critique how Obama's plan actually equaled 'spreading the wealth around'. DId they offer a rival economic, foreign, domestic, etc. policy with any real substance too it?

I think im done from this thread. I don't want to piss people off and I know politics (especially now) is a hot button issue. I especially don't want to piss you off Dr. John, so I'll stop.

you can have your views. I don't I can convince you. I would recommend looking into other news organizations than FOX NEWS, even if its simply picking up fairly middle of the road newspapers (not the Post, and say, not the NY Times since that will be too 'liberal' im sure.)

So i'll just say, gotta love free speech. Even if you hate the speech your interlocuter is giving right back at ya.
I'm afraid the cold, hard facts do not support your position. Pure, simple numbers.

And FOX never has a Republican on without a Demnocrat to balance. None of the other networks do that.

If you take the big picture in, how does a news organization (TV, radio. newspaper, etc) draw clients? By getting the "scoop"--providing what the competition does not. And telling the other side is so obviouslyy and purposefully ignored by the other TV networks, it's just to easy for FOX to provide the facts thye will not.

Did you know about half FOX's viewership are Democrats? Again, simple facts.

BTW, I think this is a good conversation. And it's probably agood thing for those of us who are scared to death over the negative changes in this country to blow off a little steam.

How do you take your Kool Aid? LOL

[Dr. John Crisler]

There are very few objective media outlets anymore. They all want viewers/buyers, but most resort to making the news and espousing their personal agendas. Time after time, studies show that Republicans get negative 'coverage' by at least a 5 to 1 margin. They are not intellectually honest and do not fairly cover the news, they attempt to make the news. They take points of view that establish a bias, thus minimizing their integrity. Fox News does have commentators/entertainers who are biased largely towards the conservative side, but as a news outlet they absolutely provide both sides of the story.

BTW, you are not pissing me off at all. I enjoy honest and healthy debate that doesn't get personal. Although I probably don't agree with most of your political persuasions I still like to read and understand other points of view.
Proof positive. Debate over.

[Dr. John Crisler]

If your telling me FOX NEWS is the network that tells both sides, well, I think somebody has been drinking the "fair and balanced" cool-aid a little to much.

It strikes me as Odd that fox news is the one pushing the media bias buttons when they are thew worst of all.

This liberal media bias think just makes me shake my head. You can't cover up for Palin's ridiculousness (even Fox NEWS talking about it now. She didnt even know AFRICA was a CONTINENT and not a country), simply by saying its media bias.
the media liked Obama better. Want to know why? Because he is articulate, intelligent, TALKS ABOUT THE ISSUES, makes rational arguments, makes probing insights etc.And it looks like America liked him better too. Its nice when democracy works for once. I myself think Plato had it right....

Let's examine the closing week prior to the election. Obama talked about a closing argument. What is an argument? A set of propositions or premises arranged in a logical fashion to make a rational point.

What did McCain/Palin do? They simply shouted louder about "terrorist" "communist" "spread the wealth". Was there an actual rational position anywhere in their talk? Did they critique how Obama's plan actually equaled 'spreading the wealth around'. DId they offer a rival economic, foreign, domestic, etc. policy with any real substance too it?

I think im done from this thread. I don't want to piss people off and I know politics (especially now) is a hot button issue. I especially don't want to piss you off Dr. John, so I'll stop.

you can have your views. I don't I can convince you. I would recommend looking into other news organizations than FOX NEWS, even if its simply picking up fairly middle of the road newspapers (not the Post, and say, not the NY Times since that will be too 'liberal' im sure.)

So i'll just say, gotta love free speech. Even if you hate the speech your interlocuter is giving right back at ya.

Did you miss all the stupid things Joe Biden said? Or Obama, when he broke from his prepared lines? I'm sorry, did you miss them on ABC, CBS, NBS, CNN, MSNBC, PBS, etc? LOL

And I lean toward performance. Sarah Palin has been incredibly effective and successful at every level. What has Obama been in charge of so far? Oh, ya, a school newspaper.

Your assessment of Obama is amazing. He NEVER answered a single tough question (the very rare times he was even asked)--even to explain his own statements. That also makes him a coward.

I wasn't aware it is the media's job to "like" one candidate over another. I thought is was to report news. There is no doubt if Obama was treated as McCain was, McCain would have wiped the floor up with him.

Our Founding Fathers had much more respect for the Fourth Estate than the Fourth Estate has for itself.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Whats wrong with a little political discussion as long as it dosnt turn into personal attacks.:)

It won't turn into personal attacks. That's just not how we treat each other here.

Poking a little fun is, well, fun though.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I'd better be careful, lest you guys figure out which way I lean politically.

[cpeil2]

BTW, I wonder what HER wardrobe is worth?




I thought it was McCain's campaign who leaked the stuff about the Governor's shopping spree.

Somewhere, I read that Michelle Obama shops at Target a fair amount.

[may19th2001]

...including calling 25 years olds "children"?

What a mess things could come to....

So I am a child then wow!! For the government to tell us what to do....

[may19th2001]

More Government control over our medical system is not a good thing...

[anyman]

I'd better be careful, lest you guys figure out which way I lean politically.

Yup, we're on the same page here, all right. At the risk of who knows what, I'l let on that one of my hobbies is the none too PC act of shooting. Can't wait till Obama, Biden, Schumer, Pelosi, Kennedy & others decide to infringe on my rights because they can't contain urban violence. These geniuses haven't figured out that rampant urban violence is often WHY people seek a firearm for protection. They'd rather disarm the victim than fix the root cause. BS!

[wondering]

She did NOT go on a shopping spree... the campaign bought those clothes for her when she was nominated and said here's some nice clothes for TV. Amazing that we talk about clothes... is it because she is a woman? Do we talk about the nice suits the guys wear? I could care less. Is clothing and where they shop a national issue - it's something for People magazine to cover, not serious minds.

While I truly believe I am an Independent, I participate in another non-medical forum as well that is predominately liberal, so it will be refreshing to be here. So we're clear on where I stand, I would say I am a social moderate and fiscal conservative. Stay outta my business and outta my wallet. My social moderacy relates more to how I think govt. should govern, my personal beliefs are shifted to the right.

I have a difficult time with anyone regardless of position who demonstrates blind allegiance to ANY political party. To me, it is a sign of laziness and lack of intelligence. Instead, be loyal to your beliefs and find the people that share those beliefs and give your support to them.

Try getting away from calling yourself a Democrat or Republican and you will find it very liberating. We use these labels as if it can somehow describe all our thoughts on all the issues. It's impossible to encapsulate that by picking a side, unless you haven't done much thinking and would rather just pick a side and argue that your team is right.

When you remove the label from yourself, you will find it much easier to not have to defend every single thing a politician or commentator does or says. Why can't I like some things about the guy I voted for and not others. Waste of energy. And why do I have to hate everything that the "other" guy does or says. It's childish.

For instance, I am a fiscal conservative, but feel no need to defend the Republicans in Congress and for that matter Bush. We spend way too much money and the conservatives have not acted very conservatively. So, I'm not happy with them. Many say the loss of seats is a repudiation of conservatism, I think the opposite is true. The issue is the conservatives have lost their way and when they return to true conservative values, they will regain seats in both houses. You will see this over the next 8 years.

Media bias? Please. Fox is shedding light on the bias that went unrecognized for generations. I have no doubt that Fox leans right. But let's see ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN... hmmm. NY Times. Washington Post. LA Times. The liberal list is much longer. We should welcome a different voice even if you dont agree with it. I could go on forever, but maybe later... if this thread continues, actual issues will be coming up from me... I have list a mile long so I will setting you all straight very soon... LOL.



I thought it was McCain's campaign who leaked the stuff about the Governor's shopping spree.

Somewhere, I read that Michelle Obama shops at Target a fair amount.

[Dr. John Crisler]

What a mess things could come to....

So I am a child then wow!! For the government to tell us what to do....The Liberals want to treat everyone as children.

....given the results of the last election, I guess it's working for THEM.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I thought it was McCain's campaign who leaked the stuff about the Governor's shopping spree.

Somewhere, I read that Michelle Obama shops at Target a fair amount.
Not Walmart, that's for sure! LOL

I'm guessing she did not get that dress she wore election night at Targe'.

[Dr. John Crisler]

She did NOT go on a shopping spree... the campaign bought those clothes for her when she was nominated and said here's some nice clothes for TV. Amazing that we talk about clothes... is it because she is a woman? Do we talk about the nice suits the guys wear? I could care less. Is clothing and where they shop a national issue - it's something for People magazine to cover, not serious minds.While I truly believe I am an Independent, I participate in another non-medical forum as well that is predominately liberal, so it will be refreshing to be here. So we're clear on where I stand, I would say I am a social moderate and fiscal conservative. Stay outta my business and outta my wallet. My social moderacy relates more to how I think govt. should govern, my personal beliefs are shifted to the right.

I have a difficult time with anyone regardless of position who demonstrates blind allegiance to ANY political party. To me, it is a sign of laziness and lack of intelligence. Instead, be loyal to your beliefs and find the people that share those beliefs and give your support to them.

Try getting away from calling yourself a Democrat or Republican and you will find it very liberating. We use these labels as if it can somehow describe all our thoughts on all the issues. It's impossible to encapsulate that by picking a side, unless you haven't done much thinking and would rather just pick a side and argue that your team is right.

When you remove the label from yourself, you will find it much easier to not have to defend every single thing a politician or commentator does or says. Why can't I like some things about the guy I voted for and not others. Waste of energy. And why do I have to hate everything that the "other" guy does or says. It's childish.

For instance, I am a fiscal conservative, but feel no need to defend the Republicans in Congress and for that matter Bush. We spend way too much money and the conservatives have not acted very conservatively. So, I'm not happy with them. Many say the loss of seats is a repudiation of conservatism, I think the opposite is true. The issue is the conservatives have lost their way and when they return to true conservative values, they will regain seats in both houses. You will see this over the next 8 years.

Media bias? Please. Fox is shedding light on the bias that went unrecognized for generations. I have no doubt that Fox leans right. But let's see ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN... hmmm. NY Times. Washington Post. LA Times. The liberal list is much longer. We should welcome a different voice even if you dont agree with it. I could go on forever, but maybe later... if this thread continues, actual issues will be coming up from me... I have list a mile long so I will setting you all straight very soon... LOL.
It was just another goofy thing for the Liberal media to make up to attack her. It was a lot easier than asking Michele Obama any honest questions. Remember, according to her husband, we are not allowed to discuss her.--anyone notice how she was kept in a cave the past weeks before the election, so Americans wouldn't hear any more of what she REALLY thinks? And if she would have done anything but embarrass the campaign, don't you think the media would have also annointed her--if they could?

The fact Ms. Palin ended up with a negative approval rating shows how effective the sleazeballs are. How could anyone have a negative opinion of her? Think about it: she has been profoundly successful at everything she has ever done--including being an outstanding mother (which she was also attacked for). The beauty queen gig is icing on the cake.

She is far more qualified to be president right now than Obama (who is not qualified in any way). Yet the media demanded she prove herself. Amazing.

Where were the Vote-for-Hillary-Just-Because-She's-a-Woman crowd once a diferent woman could crash the "glass ceiling? Sorry, successful businesswomen who are great mothers don't count. Apparently, you can't be a successful woman unless you fit their exact mold; just as Liberals defend your right to say and think anything you want to--as long as it is what they want you to say and think.

[Dr. John Crisler]

She did NOT go on a shopping spree... the campaign bought those clothes for her when she was nominated and said here's some nice clothes for TV. Amazing that we talk about clothes... is it because she is a woman? Do we talk about the nice suits the guys wear? I could care less. Is clothing and where they shop a national issue - it's something for People magazine to cover, not serious minds.

While I truly believe I am an Independent, I participate in another non-medical forum as well that is predominately liberal, so it will be refreshing to be here. So we're clear on where I stand, I would say I am a social moderate and fiscal conservative. Stay outta my business and outta my wallet. My social moderacy relates more to how I think govt. should govern, my personal beliefs are shifted to the right.

I have a difficult time with anyone regardless of position who demonstrates blind allegiance to ANY political party. To me, it is a sign of laziness and lack of intelligence. Instead, be loyal to your beliefs and find the people that share those beliefs and give your support to them.

Try getting away from calling yourself a Democrat or Republican and you will find it very liberating. We use these labels as if it can somehow describe all our thoughts on all the issues. It's impossible to encapsulate that by picking a side, unless you haven't done much thinking and would rather just pick a side and argue that your team is right.

When you remove the label from yourself, you will find it much easier to not have to defend every single thing a politician or commentator does or says. Why can't I like some things about the guy I voted for and not others. Waste of energy. And why do I have to hate everything that the "other" guy does or says. It's childish.

For instance, I am a fiscal conservative, but feel no need to defend the Republicans in Congress and for that matter Bush. We spend way too much money and the conservatives have not acted very conservatively. So, I'm not happy with them. Many say the loss of seats is a repudiation of conservatism, I think the opposite is true. The issue is the conservatives have lost their way and when they return to true conservative values, they will regain seats in both houses. You will see this over the next 8 years.

Media bias? Please. Fox is shedding light on the bias that went unrecognized for generations. I have no doubt that Fox leans right. But let's see ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN... hmmm. NY Times. Washington Post. LA Times. The liberal list is much longer. We should welcome a different voice even if you dont agree with it. I could go on forever, but maybe later... if this thread continues, actual issues will be coming up from me... I have list a mile long so I will setting you all straight very soon... LOL.
Funny, when the Democrats were running Congress and running up huge deficits, it was called "humanitarian". The Republicans noted this, and tried to get in on the act, too. But then it suddenly became "irresponsible". The liberal media at work again.

Ronald Reagan doubled governmental revenues (yes, via trickle down). But the Democrats who "led" both houses spent $1.52 for every $1 in NEW revenue his tax-reducing policies brought in.

[Dr. John Crisler]

She did NOT go on a shopping spree... the campaign bought those clothes for her when she was nominated and said here's some nice clothes for TV. Amazing that we talk about clothes... is it because she is a woman? Do we talk about the nice suits the guys wear? I could care less. Is clothing and where they shop a national issue - it's something for People magazine to cover, not serious minds.

While I truly believe I am an Independent, I participate in another non-medical forum as well that is predominately liberal, so it will be refreshing to be here. So we're clear on where I stand, I would say I am a social moderate and fiscal conservative. Stay outta my business and outta my wallet. My social moderacy relates more to how I think govt. should govern, my personal beliefs are shifted to the right.

I have a difficult time with anyone regardless of position who demonstrates blind allegiance to ANY political party. To me, it is a sign of laziness and lack of intelligence. Instead, be loyal to your beliefs and find the people that share those beliefs and give your support to them.

Try getting away from calling yourself a Democrat or Republican and you will find it very liberating. We use these labels as if it can somehow describe all our thoughts on all the issues. It's impossible to encapsulate that by picking a side, unless you haven't done much thinking and would rather just pick a side and argue that your team is right.

When you remove the label from yourself, you will find it much easier to not have to defend every single thing a politician or commentator does or says. Why can't I like some things about the guy I voted for and not others. Waste of energy. And why do I have to hate everything that the "other" guy does or says. It's childish.

For instance, I am a fiscal conservative, but feel no need to defend the Republicans in Congress and for that matter Bush. We spend way too much money and the conservatives have not acted very conservatively. So, I'm not happy with them. Many say the loss of seats is a repudiation of conservatism, I think the opposite is true. The issue is the conservatives have lost their way and when they return to true conservative values, they will regain seats in both houses. You will see this over the next 8 years.

Media bias? Please. Fox is shedding light on the bias that went unrecognized for generations. I have no doubt that Fox leans right. But let's see ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, CNN... hmmm. NY Times. Washington Post. LA Times. The liberal list is much longer. We should welcome a different voice even if you dont agree with it. I could go on forever, but maybe later... if this thread continues, actual issues will be coming up from me... I have list a mile long so I will setting you all straight very soon... LOL.

What FOX does is present news the other networks don't and won't. It's a brilliant business decision whose time came a long, long time ago. If it had, maybe we wouldn't be in the mess we are today. The corrupt Liberal media is in control of our country.

[Dr. John Crisler]

More Government control over our medical system is not a good thing...

Socialized medicine doe snot work anywhere in the world. But that simple fact does not matter to the Democrats insatiable desire to control every aspect of our lives.

[GirlyMan]

Socialized medicine doe snot work anywhere in the world.

Which is precisely why it is NOT being proposed. What is being proposed is to expand the Health Insurance coverage options currently available to members of Congress and other Federal employees to everyone. Universal health insurance coverage does not equal socialized medicine. Socialized medicine equals zero health insurance coverage because health insurance becomes completely unnecessary. Expanding the FEHB to include everyone maximizes patient choice. Socialized medicine minimizes it.


More Government control over our medical system is not a good thing...

Yeah, let's just get rid of the FDA once and for all. They clearly haven't been doing their job for the last 8 years anyways.

[snook]

Yeah, let's just get rid of the FDA once and for all. They clearly haven't been doing their job for the last 8 years anyways.

Regulatory control is not the same as service provider. Don't get the two confused.

[snook]

Which is precisely why it is NOT being proposed. What is being proposed is to expand the Health Insurance coverage options currently available to members of Congress and other Federal employees to everyone. Universal health insurance coverage does not equal socialized medicine. Socialized medicine equals zero health insurance coverage because health insurance becomes completely unnecessary. Expanding the FEHB to include everyone maximizes patient choice. Socialized medicine minimizes it.


I am still reading about this program, but to me, socialized medicine IS when the government provides, funds, or manages significant portions of medical care.

[snook]

Which is precisely why it is Universal health insurance coverage does not equal socialized medicine.

Maybe not entirely, but I think it does. It is at least a big step towards it.

It is just another costly entitlement and reason to relinquish personal responsibility and turn them over the government. Citizens are becoming too reliant on the government.

[GirlyMan]

I am still reading about this program, but to me, socialized medicine IS when the government provides, funds, or manages significant portions of medical care.

Fair enough. But given that definition we already are a socialized medicine country. Have been for the last 43 years.


Regulatory control is not the same as service provider. Don't get the two confused.

I don't.

[cpeil2]

Fair enough. But given that definition we already are a socialized medicine country. Have been for the last 43 years.




Arguably, even before then. The federal government has been providing direct medical care to the nations's veteran's since the early 19th century.

The network of TB sanitariums that blanketed the nation in the early to mid- 20th century was significantly federally-funded.



And the early history of the US Public Health Service, established by statute in 1798, is classic "socialized medicine" --- subsidizing medical care delivered to merchant seamen on a contract basis by private hospitals.

[GirlyMan]

Arguably, even before then.

Indeed. From my perspective providing care is an inappropriate role for the Government (this is a much more restrictive definition of "socialized medicine" than snook's). Regulating care providers is obviously an appropriate role for the Government. What we are really debating is the degree to which Government should facilitate patient access to care providers. This is a worthwhile and important debate. Introducing terms like "socialized medicine" with all of its pejorative connotations diminishes and distracts from this debate.

[cpeil2]

Indeed. From my perspective providing care is an inappropriate role for the Government (this is a much more restrictive definition of "socialized medicine" than snook's). Regulating care providers is obviously an appropriate role for the Government. What we are really debating is the degree to which Government should facilitate patient access to care providers. This is a worthwhile and important debate. Introducing terms like "socialized medicine" with all of its pejorative connotations diminishes and distracts from this debate.



I think he said "provides, funds or manages . . . ." I provided examples of each.

[GirlyMan]

I think he said "provides, funds or manages . . . ." I provided examples of each.

You did. I do not agree with the "provides" part. The VA, for example, is an inefficient organization which provides sub-standard care. Veterans would be far better off if the Government provided them with health care insurance which allowed them to choose their own care provider. Just my opinion, of course.

[gman]

Which is precisely why it is NOT being proposed. What is being proposed is to expand the Health Insurance coverage options currently available to members of Congress and other Federal employees to everyone. Universal health insurance coverage does not equal socialized medicine. Socialized medicine equals zero health insurance coverage because health insurance becomes completely unnecessary. Expanding the FEHB to include everyone maximizes patient choice. Socialized medicine minimizes it.



That would be nice. I would be in a bigger group. Right now my group only has 3 families in it, so my rate is $900 per month for the right to pay $50 per doctor visit, and $50 copay for medicines

All because the insurance company does some convoluted actuarial calculation and says my group is small, so the rate is higher.

Life's not fair I guess, but being in a bigger group would "spread the wealth" a little. Wonder what my rate would be if I were lucky enough to work for the government?

[GirlyMan]

Wonder what my rate would be if I were lucky enough to work for the government?

No reason to wonder.

HMOs:

http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/rates/nonpostalhmo2009.pdf

Fee-for-Service:

http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/rates/nonpostalffs2009.pdf

[cpeil2]

You did. I do not agree with the "provides" part. The VA, for example, is an inefficient organization which provides sub-standard care. Veterans would be far better off if the Government provided them with health care insurance which allowed them to choose their own care provider. Just my opinion, of course.


Others cite the VA as an example of the efficiency and quality-of-care that is possible in government-provided healthcare. Speaking personally, I am a veteran and I am entitled to VA medical care. If I couldn't afford to pay for my own health coverage, I would happily use the VA. I suspect the care I would receive would be approximately equal in quality to what I get through Kaiser.


An awful lot of this stuff is perception.

[gman]

No reason to wonder.

HMOs:

http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/rates/nonpostalhmo2009.pdf

Fee-for-Service:

http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/rates/nonpostalffs2009.pdf

$171 for HMO

$168 for standard GEHA fee for service.

That really burns my ass to pay 730 more per month just because I am in a small group.

Seems like a simple solution, put everyone in one big group that is not already in an existing large group

[GirlyMan]

An awful lot of this stuff is perception.

No doubt. I work with a lot of veterans. The only one that used the VA used it for amputation and prostheses following an IED incident. He has since returned to using his private insurance. Don't get me wrong, the VA provides a valuable service and the Doctors and Nurses working there are true Public Servants. But they tend to focus, rightly so, on critical care and rehabilitation (especially now). Less so on preventative medicine.

[GirlyMan]

$171 for HMO

$168 for standard GEHA fee for service.

That really burns my ass to pay 730 more per month just because I am in a small group.

Seems like a simple solution, put everyone in one big group that is not already in an existing large group

While the group size certainly influences the rate, the standard GEHA is still $675 in this very large group ($225 less than your very small group). The biggest difference comes from the Government picking up 75% of that cost. How we pay for that on a national scale is the (very big) question.

[gman]

Borrow more from China, then cancel the debt later.

j/k

Seriously, if the government pays for 75% of its employee's, it should be paying 75% of everyone's. Fair is fair. Like you said, paying for it is another problem.

The alternative should be, pay 0% of its employee's

[GirlyMan]

Seriously, if the government pays for 75% of its employee's, it should be paying 75% of everyone's. Fair is fair.

No argument from me.


The alternative should be, pay 0% of its employee's

Well, since this is the program which covers Congressmen and their families ... that ain't gonna happen.

[gman]

I wonder how many of those who are against something being done either work for the federal, state, or local government; the military; or in huge corporations who subsidize their employees.

I wonder how many of them would change their mind if they had to start bearing 100% of the premiums?

I bet we would have a huge influx of new Democrats! lol

[snook]

Honestly I support employers giving the money they spend to cover premiums back to the employee and let them go to the open market for it. This is a major shift in strategy and makes insurance companies compete for enrollments. That cycle fosters competition, innovation, creativity, and flexibility.

This is being done right now, but on a very small scale. Non-emergency care clinics in drugstores around the country offer standard-fare care at a fraction of what it costs to go through the standard route, which is fraught with bureaucracy and paperwork.

[JanSz]

I wonder how many of those who are against something being done either work for the federal, state, or local government; the military; or in huge corporations who subsidize their employees.

I wonder how many of them would change their mind if they had to start bearing 100% of the premiums?

I bet we would have a huge influx of new Democrats! lol

You have forgot to mention the 50 very small towns in NJ, completely furnished with government employess and their pensions, schools, police the whole set.
More people in government or union jobs there then residents of those places.
If you could make them into one or two towns (instead of 50), 50000 people (employed there) would change their mind quickly.

Just that move alone would cut my residece taxes 10 fold.
----------------------------------------------------------

Personally I would attempt to make lots of exceptions for our military.

.

[cpeil2]

No argument from me.



Well, since this is the program which covers Congressmen and their families ... that ain't gonna happen.


I was a federal employee once - the health insurance was remarkable - it just paid for everything.

[gman]

Socialism at its best, indeed, if you are one of the lucky ones

[snook]

I can't say it enough.

People will love government entitlements if they reap a lot, and contribute very little. Unfortunately, somebody is shouldering that burden.

[GirlyMan]

I was a federal employee once - the health insurance was remarkable - it just paid for everything.

Our President-Elect has promised this program for everyone. I expect all of us to hold him to this promise and eagerly await the details on how he plans to pay for it.

(btw, I have been a federal employee for my entire career, going on 25 years now, and cpeil2's characterization is accurate (the "remarkable" part, not the "paid for everything" part). My sincere hope is that this program can indeed be expanded to cover us all.)

[gman]

I can't say it enough.

People will love government entitlements if they reap a lot, and contribute very little. Unfortunately, somebody is shouldering that burden.

Yeah, namely, me!

Plus paying my own on top of it

At 900 per month, it is very tempting to do without.

[GirlyMan]

Yeah, namely, me!

Plus paying my own on top of it

At 900 per month, it is very tempting to do without.

Not fair.

[cpeil2]

Our President-Elect has promised this program for everyone. I expect all of us to hold him to this promise and eagerly await the details on how he plans to pay for it.

(btw, I have been a federal employee for my entire career, going on 25 years now, and cpeil2's characterization is accurate (the "remarkable" part, not the "paid for everything" part). My sincere hope is that this program can indeed be expanded to cover us all.)

Well, maybe not everything - but a lot.

[Dr. John Crisler]

It'd be nice if I could at least deduct the health insurance premiums I have to pay for my own coverage. Insurance we buy for our empoloyees is deductable to the business, and people are not charged their insurance premiums as income, so why not? How can this be?

[ssavan01]

Ron Paul was our only hope in my opinon.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Ron Paul was our only hope in my opinon.
He appears to be the only candidate who has read the Constitution.

However, he plays too much to the fringe element to be taken seriously.

He also does not present well. It's obvious Americans are easily fooled by someone they fantacize as charasmatic--even though it's only because a candidate never faces tough questions, or the cameras turn away when he is making faces and looking annoyed. Think about it: Abraham Lincoln would never make it in politics today. He was ugly and had a terrible voice.

What have we come to? God help us.

[Dr. John Crisler]

If you think about it, when was the last time the more charasmatic / personable candidate lost the election?

Many people vote based on emotion and have no interest in facts.
Well said.

[cpeil2]

It'd be nice if I could at least deduct the health insurance premiums I have to pay for my own coverage. Insurance we buy for our empoloyees is deductable to the business, and people are not charged their insurance premiums as income, so why not? How can this be?




I'm assuming your practice is organized as a PC.

So you are saying that the corporation cannot treat health insurance premiums of shareholders as an operating expense, as it can with those of the employees?

[GirlyMan]

Ron Paul was our only hope in my opinon.

Paul-Kucinich for 2012! Right meets Left. Now that'd be fun!!! (It'd probably get my vote, too. :D)

[gman]

It'd be nice if I could at least deduct the health insurance premiums I have to pay for my own coverage. Insurance we buy for our empoloyees is deductable to the business, and people are not charged their insurance premiums as income, so why not? How can this be?

It is deductible, Doc. If you are an LLC, it is not deductible on the LLC return, but you get to deduct it on your personal return at the bottom of page 1 in the adjustments to income section where the IRA deduction is.

[joe143]

He appears to be the only candidate who has read the Constitution.

However, he plays too much to the fringe element to be taken seriously.

He also does not present well. It's obvious Americans are easily fooled by someone they fantacize as charasmatic--even though it's only because a candidate never faces tough questions, or the cameras turn away when he is making faces and looking annoyed. Think about it: Abraham Lincoln would never make it in politics today. He was ugly and had a terrible voice.

What have we come to? God help us.

That pretty much sums up my feelings on all of this.

[Wise Guy]

Ron Paul was our only hope in my opinon.

He had my vote in the primary

[Wise Guy]

Think about it: Abraham Lincoln would never make it in politics today. He was ugly and had a terrible voice.

What have we come to? God help us.

Studies have shown time and time again that looks and physical appearance matter, BIG TIME.

Given that looks and physical appearance are a indication of hormone levels, this is a natural biological trait that is hard wired threw evolution and goes back to the time since our inception, regardless of whatever doctrine you believe in.

Physical size and appearance, and voice too, are a sign of health, vitality, and hormone levels, specifically testosterone.

Did I just say that testosterone levels can and probably do win an election? YOU BET I DID. Its a fact. Barack Obama simply oozes out charisma, good looks, health and testosterone. Just like George W Bush did 4 and 8 years ago when compared to Kerry and Gore. Kerry was a limp-wristed wimp. Gore was paunchy, pale and boring.

I think if McCain were 20 years younger he would have probably won.

[cpeil2]

It is deductible, Doc. If you are an LLC, it is not deductible on the LLC return, but you get to deduct it on your personal return at the bottom of page 1 in the adjustments to income section where the IRA deduction is.



What if the LLC pays it?

[Dr. John Crisler]

What if the LLC pays it?
Nope.

Is that fair?

[Dr. John Crisler]

Studies have shown time and time again that looks and physical appearance matter, BIG TIME.

Given that looks and physical appearance are a indication of hormone levels, this is a natural biological trait that is hard wired threw evolution and goes back to the time since our inception, regardless of whatever doctrine you believe in.

Physical size and appearance, and voice too, are a sign of health, vitality, and hormone levels, specifically testosterone.

Did I just say that testosterone levels can and probably do win an election? YOU BET I DID. Its a fact. Barack Obama simply oozes out charisma, good looks, health and testosterone. Just like George W Bush did 4 and 8 years ago when compared to Kerry and Gore. Kerry was a limp-wristed wimp. Gore was paunchy, pale and boring.

I think if McCain were 20 years younger he would have probably won.
Funny, he looks like an arrogant, spoiled punk to me. Perhaps it's because that is what he is.

[ssavan01]

He appears to be the only candidate who has read the Constitution.

However, he plays too much to the fringe element to be taken seriously.

He also does not present well. It's obvious Americans are easily fooled by someone they fantacize as charasmatic--even though it's only because a candidate never faces tough questions, or the cameras turn away when he is making faces and looking annoyed. Think about it: Abraham Lincoln would never make it in politics today. He was ugly and had a terrible voice.

What have we come to? God help us.



I completely agree. I thought out of all the candidates Ron Paul was the only one to address the issues noone really wanted to talk about, such as authoririty to even make some of the decisions that occur in the federal reserve. Erasing what you dont like from the constitution should outrage most americans. I believe that Obama may improve some of our large problems over the next four years, but nothing will be done to stop this same thing from occurring again down the line. Band-aiding problems seems to be our nation's favorite past time.

[Wise Guy]

Funny, he looks like an arrogant, spoiled punk to me. Perhaps it's because that is what he is.

This line of thinking is exactly why the republicans lost. EXACTLY.

Resorting to name calling and character attacks.

Instead of hitting him hard on the issues like

1. There is no way he will be able to deliver on many of his promises - We as a country simply cannot afford his idea of government spending

2. Many of the people he is increasing taxes on ARE small business owners

3. He has little experience

4. He sat idle in a church pew for over 20 years while his racist pastor basically assaulted America and white people in general

Just a few off the top of my head here....

The republicans resorted to name calling. And it failed. America is changing. The scope of America is changing. People are changing. And the Republicans had better get their sh!t together. They ran an absolutely embarrassing campaign.

And Sara Palin is an absolute joke. Laughter. A national parody. She knows very little about politics, and it showed. She was completely embarrassed on national television with her scripted debate. It had to be scripted. I don't think she could even debate your average Poly-Science College Graduate.

Palin holds a Bachelor of Science degree in communications-journalism from the University of Idaho, where she also minored in political science. This is an outrage. Doesn't even hold a masters degree!!!! Doesn't even hold a political science degree. Not one ounce of qualifications.

Dr John you are quick to point out that only qualified individuals should be able to practice medicine. Well I say only qualified individuals should be able to run our country only.

Barack Obama = Harvard Law Grad, top of his class

Sara Palin = Basically a laughter of a communications degree, Bachelor's. Hear at business school, we have a saying for communication majors. They are the slackers who couldn't pass statistics, so they can't go to business school. Instead they end up communication majors, which might as well be pottery making.

:)

[snook]

This line of thinking is exactly why the republicans lost. EXACTLY.

Resorting to name calling and character attacks.

Instead of hitting him hard on the issues like

1. There is no way he will be able to deliver on many of his promises - We as a country simply cannot afford his idea of government spending

2. Many of the people he is increasing taxes on ARE small business owners

3. He has little experience

4. He sat idle in a church pew for over 20 years while his racist pastor basically assaulted America and white people in general

Just a few off the top of my head here....

The republicans resorted to name calling. And it failed. America is changing. The scope of America is changing. People are changing. And the Republicans had better get their sh!t together. They ran an absolutely embarrassing campaign.

And Sara Palin is an absolute joke. Laughter. A national parody. She knows very little about politics, and it showed. She was completely embarrassed on national television with her scripted debate. It had to be scripted. I don't think she could even debate your average Poly-Science College Graduate.

Palin holds a Bachelor of Science degree in communications-journalism from the University of Idaho, where she also minored in political science. This is an outrage. Doesn't even hold a masters degree!!!! Doesn't even hold a political science degree. Not one ounce of qualifications.

Dr John you are quick to point out that only qualified individuals should be able to practice medicine. Well I say only qualified individuals should be able to run our country only.

Barack Obama = Harvard Law Grad, top of his class

Sara Palin = Basically a laughter of a communications degree, Bachelor's. Hear at business school, we have a saying for communication majors. They are the slackers who couldn't pass statistics, so they can't go to business school. Instead they end up communication majors, which might as well be pottery making.

:)

That is not why they lost. They lost because 53% of the republic was enamored with a simple, meaningless, campaign motto of change. There was a massive base of support in the media which gave him free positive spin with very little critical review.

Ask an Obama supporter about his positions, specifically the ones they like the most. You will get blank stares. You will get that they like his vision of change. Obama offered very little details and his audience did not care. They hear about all the great government programs they are going to get and fail to see the other side of the coin.

In the arena of ideas, Obama and most democrats will get smoked. It doesn't matter though. They are better with persuasive arguments that lure in supporters.

You are flat out wrong about Palin and calling her 'a joke'. She was exactly what I was looking for in a vice president. I like that she was not a lawyer. I like that she was from outside the beltway. Sure she was not as polished as some of the other career politicians, but that is not a concern for me. I've had enough of career politicians. I care about her positions and philosophy for government. That is what matters, and on those issues she shines. Biden and Obama simply resort to partisan politics and some sort of government program or handout.

Where did you see the republicans resort to name calling? I am sure there was some of it somewhere, but what I mostly saw was character assassinations from the democratic surrogates.

Harvard, Brown, and Yale pimp out thousands of grads each year. Do you think each one of them is Presidential material on that alone? Nonsense.

[wondering]

Name calling was never the issue. Republicans lost for several reasons...

1. a general hatred of Bush resulted in a general repudiation of Republicans. It was an uphill battle from the start.

2. very charismatic alternative presented by Democrats.

3. if you examine the collective exit polls across all states, the number of voters who call themselves liberal was tiny. The number that call themselves conservatives significant. Yet, these voters who align themselves with conservative ideals crossed the line. This was for a couple reasons. Generally speaking Obama ran a much more conservative campaign than history suggests is his true beliefs. The current conservative powers havent acted conservatively. They need to return to these ideals as we have always been a right of center country.

You say they resorted to character attacks instead of issues, but then say they should have hit him on Rev. Wright. Would this not be a character attack? Of course it would be and they should have hit him hard on this, but McCain chose not to. This was a mistake. In Obama's own words, he sat in that church 2x per month for 20 years and he never knew Wright felt like this? Are we that stupid to believe that? I guess we are.

Name calling - have you ever heard Keith Olberman on MSNBC or Bill Maher or name anyone that isnt on Fox. The media was all over McCain and Palin as they annointed their messiah. They were like giddy school girls over him. Democrats have the benefit of the media to do much of their dirty work.

Going to Harvard isn't an automatic qualification for President. Could you imagine if McCain had his charisma, and Obama had McCains and if the party labels weren't attached to either candidate - instead they were Party A and Party B. Do you think the outcome would have been the same? Charisma is nice, but it isnt enough for me. As they say, too much icing and not enough cake.

Oh well, what is done is done - in the end I hope he turns out to be the best President ever cause we need it.

Time to talk issues.


This line of thinking is exactly why the republicans lost. EXACTLY.

Resorting to name calling and character attacks.

Instead of hitting him hard on the issues like

1. There is no way he will be able to deliver on many of his promises - We as a country simply cannot afford his idea of government spending

2. Many of the people he is increasing taxes on ARE small business owners

3. He has little experience

4. He sat idle in a church pew for over 20 years while his racist pastor basically assaulted America and white people in general

Just a few off the top of my head here....

The republicans resorted to name calling. And it failed. America is changing. The scope of America is changing. People are changing. And the Republicans had better get their sh!t together. They ran an absolutely embarrassing campaign.

And Sara Palin is an absolute joke. Laughter. A national parody. She knows very little about politics, and it showed. She was completely embarrassed on national television with her scripted debate. It had to be scripted. I don't think she could even debate your average Poly-Science College Graduate.

Palin holds a Bachelor of Science degree in communications-journalism from the University of Idaho, where she also minored in political science. This is an outrage. Doesn't even hold a masters degree!!!! Doesn't even hold a political science degree. Not one ounce of qualifications.

Dr John you are quick to point out that only qualified individuals should be able to practice medicine. Well I say only qualified individuals should be able to run our country only.

Barack Obama = Harvard Law Grad, top of his class

Sara Palin = Basically a laughter of a communications degree, Bachelor's. Hear at business school, we have a saying for communication majors. They are the slackers who couldn't pass statistics, so they can't go to business school. Instead they end up communication majors, which might as well be pottery making.

:)

[snook]

Oh well, what is done is done - in the end I hope he turns out to be the best President ever cause we need it.

Time to talk issues.

Good point. People forget that Democrats have been in control of Congress for the past 2 years, and for at least another 2. There are very little checks and balances as this point. I hope President-elect Obama understands that he represents all of America and not just Moveon.org.

[anyman]

By their very nature primaries bring out the fringes on both sides, who's support is needed to get a nomination. Thus, the end results on both sides tend to be more right or left than most of in the middle care for. That's how we got GWB and now how we got Obama.

The vast reservoir of dislike and distain for Bush is what largely propelled Obama to victory. Add in the Repubs complete failure to remember their role as fiscal conservatives and disastrous economic issues and the public would have voted for a rabid dog.

[JanSz]

This line of thinking is exactly why the republicans lost. EXACTLY.

Resorting to name calling and character attacks.

Instead of hitting him hard on the issues like

1. There is no way he will be able to deliver on many of his promises - We as a country simply cannot afford his idea of government spending

2. Many of the people he is increasing taxes on ARE small business owners

3. He has little experience

4. He sat idle in a church pew for over 20 years while his racist pastor basically assaulted America and white people in general

Just a few off the top of my head here....

The republicans resorted to name calling. And it failed. America is changing. The scope of America is changing. People are changing. And the Republicans had better get their sh!t together. They ran an absolutely embarrassing campaign.

And Sara Palin is an absolute joke. Laughter. A national parody. She knows very little about politics, and it showed. She was completely embarrassed on national television with her scripted debate. It had to be scripted. I don't think she could even debate your average Poly-Science College Graduate.

Palin holds a Bachelor of Science degree in communications-journalism from the University of Idaho, where she also minored in political science. This is an outrage. Doesn't even hold a masters degree!!!! Doesn't even hold a political science degree. Not one ounce of qualifications.

Dr John you are quick to point out that only qualified individuals should be able to practice medicine. Well I say only qualified individuals should be able to run our country only.

Barack Obama = Harvard Law Grad, top of his class

Sara Palin = Basically a laughter of a communications degree, Bachelor's. Hear at business school, we have a saying for communication majors. They are the slackers who couldn't pass statistics, so they can't go to business school. Instead they end up communication majors, which might as well be pottery making.

:)


On the other hand,
Hitler was succesfuly runing superb military machine,
and hi was a (ordinary) uneducated corporal.

Hi was able to hire respectable team of engineers who designed flawlesly working crematoriums.
-------------------------------------------

Running country have not much to do with formal education.

Actor can do it (Ronald Reagan).

But his hearth have to be in the right place.
He have to have valid moral spine.
He have to unsefishly love his country (and rest of the human kind), the way soldiers do when they give up their life.
.
.

[dot1]

Well I hope my two businesses can afford the Obama presidency. I fully understand why he won, great speaker, maybe the best since MLK Jr. He appealed to a cyclical downturn, we can't be growing 24/7 for 100 years! I do believe we have not seen the last of Sarah Palin, she to is charismatic and a good speaker. Saying because Obama went to Harvard makes him smart in one phrase and saying a Yale graduate is dumb just does not makes since, I have not read the entire thread so I am not saying someone hear has done that but have heard many of the President Elect supporters call our current President. I am politically active in my Red State, Alabama, helped a friend win a State Representative seat and I attended the ARP annual conference and banquet. Sorry for the long post, I just pray that we will all be safe, financially successful and can keep all of our rights as United States citizens under Democratic control.

[JanSz]

Well I hope my two businesses can afford the Obama presidency. I fully understand why he won, great speaker, maybe the best since MLK Jr. He appealed to a cyclical downturn, we can't be growing 24/7 for 100 years! I do believe we have not seen the last of Sarah Palin, she to is charismatic and a good speaker. Saying because Obama went to Harvard makes him smart in one phrase and saying a Yale graduate is dumb just does not makes since, I have not read the entire thread so I am not saying someone hear has done that but have heard many of the President Elect supporters call our current President. I am politically active in my Red State, Alabama, helped a friend win a State Representative seat and I attended the ARP annual conference and banquet. Sorry for the long post, I just pray that we will all be safe, financially successful and can keep all of our rights as United States citizens under Democratic control.

Do you see a possibilities for discussing third or more presidential terms,
or martial law and suspended citizen rights?

.

[Bulldog]

Well I hope my two businesses can afford the Obama presidency. I fully understand why he won, great speaker, maybe the best since MLK Jr. He appealed to a cyclical downturn, we can't be growing 24/7 for 100 years! I do believe we have not seen the last of Sarah Palin, she to is charismatic and a good speaker. Saying because Obama went to Harvard makes him smart in one phrase and saying a Yale graduate is dumb just does not makes since, I have not read the entire thread so I am not saying someone hear has done that but have heard many of the President Elect supporters call our current President. I am politically active in my Red State, Alabama, helped a friend win a State Representative seat and I attended the ARP annual conference and banquet. Sorry for the long post, I just pray that we will all be safe, financially successful and can keep all of our rights as United States citizens under Democratic control.

Some of the dumbest people I have met in my life have masters degrees and doctorates (no offence meant to anyone here in any way). I don't judge peoples intelligence based on their formal college education. I have met far to many smart successful people who never went to college to do that.

Frankly I think we need fewer over educated lawyers in our governmental positions.

[Bulldog]

This line of thinking is exactly why the republicans lost. EXACTLY.

Resorting to name calling and character attacks.

Instead of hitting him hard on the issues like

1. There is no way he will be able to deliver on many of his promises - We as a country simply cannot afford his idea of government spending

2. Many of the people he is increasing taxes on ARE small business owners

3. He has little experience

4. He sat idle in a church pew for over 20 years while his racist pastor basically assaulted America and white people in general

Just a few off the top of my head here....

The republicans resorted to name calling. And it failed. America is changing. The scope of America is changing. People are changing. And the Republicans had better get their sh!t together. They ran an absolutely embarrassing campaign.

And Sara Palin is an absolute joke. Laughter. A national parody. She knows very little about politics, and it showed. She was completely embarrassed on national television with her scripted debate. It had to be scripted. I don't think she could even debate your average Poly-Science College Graduate.

Palin holds a Bachelor of Science degree in communications-journalism from the University of Idaho, where she also minored in political science. This is an outrage. Doesn't even hold a masters degree!!!! Doesn't even hold a political science degree. Not one ounce of qualifications.

Dr John you are quick to point out that only qualified individuals should be able to practice medicine. Well I say only qualified individuals should be able to run our country only.

Barack Obama = Harvard Law Grad, top of his class

Sara Palin = Basically a laughter of a communications degree, Bachelor's. Hear at business school, we have a saying for communication majors. They are the slackers who couldn't pass statistics, so they can't go to business school. Instead they end up communication majors, which might as well be pottery making.

:)

This is a ridiculous statement. As I said in a previous post, education doesn't necessarily mean anything. Half of the people I know with masters degrees or doctorates don't know enough to look both ways before crossing the road. Sorry, but I don't want over educated, book smart people with no "common sense" running the country. I would much rather have hard working passionate people like Sara Palin in office. People who actually care about the country and have the guts required to stand up to their own party when necessary to get the job done. Compare that the the pathetic coward current governor of Michigan. I hope Obama gives her a federal position just to get her out of my state.

Personally I think the biggest problem in recent years is all the ultra liberal professors in our universities and even the liberal teachers in our high schools. We need more conservative teachers in our high schools and professors in our universities. Most of the teenagers and young 20's people that I know expect things to be handed to them on a silver platter, which is exactly what the Democrats tells them they should expect.

[gman]

Nope.

Is that fair?

It is deductible on your return, I am a CPA.

Nondeductible on LLC return, deductible on your own return as self employed health insurance.

[JackBauer]

I think this video wasn't meant to be completely sarcasm... (There's just too much truth in it :) )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bCuEXrU-yQ

When I watch it I am reminded of partisan liberals who espouse Bush hatred at every opportunity.

I went out to dinner with a female friend of mine a couple nights ago... She's actually the president or chairwoman of the local Young Democrats organization. She voted McCain... We talked in amazement as to how many people were sold a bill of goods with no real substance. She's a centrist Democrat, watching the party move to the left, as the country stays in the Center.

(I completely accept BO at this point - and am looking forward to what I hope is a toning down of the hatred, it might be really good for our country. I have concerns about most of his policies - but I'm hopeful that we can put all that culture of hate behind us)

[Teegunn]

By their very nature primaries bring out the fringes on both sides, who's support is needed to get a nomination. Thus, the end results on both sides tend to be more right or left than most of in the middle care for. That's how we got GWB and now how we got Obama.

The vast reservoir of dislike and distain for Bush is what largely propelled Obama to victory. Add in the Repubs complete failure to remember their role as fiscal conservatives and disastrous economic issues and the public would have voted for a rabid dog.


This is really the meat of the issue. BushCo ended up not representing what the republican party used to be and alienated too many centrist republicans. They spent like drunken sailors and propped up the economy by letting too many overleverage. The economic house of cards was going to fall eventually. Now the democrats had a lot to do with that too (they ran congress these last 2 years), but that's not how most of the media portrayed things.

None the less, Bushco became disliked by almost all except the hard-right. I am a fiscal conservative and social moderate. I had been a registered republican for 20 years, but I am now registered independent. IMHO, leaning too far either left or right is not a good thing. I actually liked McCain, but I liked Obama too. McCain really did not run a good campaign, and Obama ran one of the best campaigns ever. Add in the timing of the economic crisis, and the country was ripe for "change". I truly hope Obama can lead as a centrist president because that is truly what this country needs.

[Teegunn]

I think this video wasn't meant to be completely sarcasm... (There's just too much truth in it :) )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bCuEXrU-yQ

When I watch it I am reminded of partisan liberals who espouse Bush hatred at every opportunity.

I went out to dinner with a female friend of mine a couple nights ago... She's actually the president or chairwoman of the local Young Democrats organization. She voted McCain... We talked in amazement as to how many people were sold a bill of goods with no real substance. She's a centrist Democrat, watching the party move to the left, as the country stays in the Center.

(I completely accept BO at this point - and am looking forward to what I hope is a toning down of the hatred, it might be really good for our country. I have concerns about most of his policies - but I'm hopeful that we can put all that culture of hate behind us)


I also support Obama and hope that this election of a minority candidate can be a catalyst to postive change in this area.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I'll insert my points. Sorry about the caps.
This line of thinking is exactly why the republicans lost. EXACTLY.

Resorting to name calling and character attacks. HEY, HE IS WHAT HE IS. IT'S PURELY HIS LAPDOG MEDIA WHO HAVE GIVEN HIM HIS REP. EVERYTIME HE GETS OFF HIS CUE CARDS HE SAYS SOMETHING REALLY STUPID--IOW, HE SAYS WHAT HE THINKS. AND HE CANNOT ANSWER A SINGLE TOUGH QUESTION. PUTIN CANNOT WAIT FOR HIM TO TAKE CONTROL.

"NAME CALLING" IS WHEN YOU MAKE A STATEMENT WHICH IS UNTRUE. WHAT I WROTE IS PURELY DESCRIPTIVE. BESIDES, THE DEMS ARE THE ONES LEADING THE WAY INTO THE GUTTER.

Instead of hitting him hard on the issues like

1. There is no way he will be able to deliver on many of his promises - We as a country simply cannot afford his idea of government spending THAT FACT HAS BEEN CONVNEIENTLY IGNORED BY THE MEDIA

2. Many of the people he is increasing taxes on ARE small business owners WHAT IS A TAX BREAK WORTH WHEN EVERYTHING YOU BUY COSTS MORE?

3. He has little experience HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE

4. He sat idle in a church pew for over 20 years while his racist pastor basically assaulted America and white people in general SO HIS CHILDREN COULD BE TAUGHT G**D*** AMERICA, AND THE GOVERNMENT CREATED AIDS TO KILL BLACK PEOPLE.

Just a few off the top of my head here....

The republicans resorted to name calling. YOU ARE COMPARING MOLES TO MOUNTAINS. And it failed. America is changing. The scope of America is changing. People are changing. And the Republicans had better get their sh!t together. WORD! They ran an absolutely embarrassing campaign. HOW INCOMPETENT ARE THEY? THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GET WAY SLEAZIER, TO COMPETE WITH THE DEMS IN THAT ARENA, AND FIND A WAY TO GET THE CORRUPT MEDIA REALIGNED WITH THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RESPONSIBILITIES.

IT'S FUNNY THAT MAKING SIMPLE STATEMENTS OF FACT ARE "PERSONAL ATTACKS" TO THE DEMS, WHO ACT LIKE SPOILED LITTLE KIDS. AND NOW WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO BRAGS ABOUT HIS "THICK SKIN" BUT WHINES LIKE A CHILD WHEN HE DOES NOT GET HIS WAY EVERY TIME.

And Sara Palin is an absolute joke. Laughter. A national parody. She knows very little about politics, and it showed. YOU APPARENTLY ARE UNAWARE OF HER ACTUAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS. She was completely embarrassed on national television with her scripted debate. It had to be scripted. YOU DO NOT REALIZE THEY ALL ARE? I don't think she could even debate your average Poly-Science College Graduate. SHE WOULD BURY MOST OF US. SHE IS A VETERAN POLTICIAN OF GREAT TALENT. AND--BEST OF ALL--SHE IS REAL. NOT A PHONY BALONEY WHO SELLS OUT HER COUNTRY FOR POWER AND PROFIT.

Palin holds a Bachelor of Science degree in communications-journalism from the University of Idaho, where she also minored in political science. This is an outrage. OUTRAGE? THAT IS JUST PLAIN SILLY. Doesn't even hold a masters degree!!!! Doesn't even hold a political science degree. Not one ounce of qualifications. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY ADVANCED DEGREES AL GORE HAS? ZERO. HE FLUNKED OUT OF DIVINITY SCHOOL. LAW SCHOOL, TOO. NEVER GOT INTO THAT CLIMATOLGY PROGRAM. LOL. AND THE NOTION OF THE CITIZEN POLITICIAN WAS FAVORED BY THE FOUNDING FATHERS. OTOH, HOW MANY POLY SCI GRADS AND LAWYERS DOES IT TAKE TO SCREW UP A COUNTRY? APPARENTLY WE HAVE REACHED THAT NUMBER.

Dr John you are quick to point out that only qualified individuals should be able to practice medicine. WE DO HAVE THIS THING WE LIKE TO CALL A "MEDICAL LICENSE" Well I say only qualified individuals should be able to run our country only. THERE ARE NO DEGREES IN TRAITORISM. OR LYING, CHEATING AND STEALING (UNLESS IT'S LAW SCHOOL) LOL

AND I REMIND YOU I AM BUT A SIMPLE COUNTRY DOCTOR. WHAT AN "OUTRAGE". AM I "QUALIFIED" IN THE MINDS OF MOST ENDOCRINOLOGISTS? PROBABLY NONE BUT THE ONES WHO I CONSULT FOR, OR HAVE PERSONALLY TRAINED.

YOU ARE A FINE YOUNG MAN. YOU WILL SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY ONCE YOU SPEND A FEW YEARS OUT IN THE WORLD. I PROMISE. I DID.

Barack Obama = Harvard Law Grad, top of his class=PHONY BALONEY POLITICIAN WHO WOULD NOT BE WHERE HE IS IF THE MEDIA DID NOT ATTACK ANY AND EVERY- ONE IN HIS WAY. INCLUDING TAX PAYING CITIZENS WHO DARED TO ASK HIM A SIMPLE HONEST QUESTION. WHERE ARE WE NOW, RUSSIA?

Sara Palin = Basically a laughter of a communications degree, Bachelor's. Hear at business school, we have a saying for communication majors. They are the slackers who couldn't pass statistics, so they can't go to business school. Instead they end up communication majors, which might as well be pottery making.

:)

[Dr. John Crisler]

It is deductible on your return, I am a CPA.

Nondeductible on LLC return, deductible on your own return as self employed health insurance.
Thank you. But in the State of Michigan, physicians are required to operate (pun intended) as a PLLC.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Paul-Kucinich for 2012! Right meets Left. Now that'd be fun!!! (It'd probably get my vote, too. :D)

It'd be great to have a VP who brought a pie chart to a radio debate.

And one thing about Libertarianism: you can get to it by either going too far to either the right or the left! LOL

[Dr. John Crisler]

I completely agree. I thought out of all the candidates Ron Paul was the only one to address the issues noone really wanted to talk about, such as authoririty to even make some of the decisions that occur in the federal reserve. Erasing what you dont like from the constitution should outrage most americans. I believe that Obama may improve some of our large problems over the next four years, but nothing will be done to stop this same thing from occurring again down the line. Band-aiding problems seems to be our nation's favorite past time.
Bingo. Look at our tax laws. Hundreds of thousands of pages of them.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I wish I could deliver my points as well as you do.

That is not why they lost. They lost because 53% of the republic was enamored with a simple, meaningless, campaign motto of change. There was a massive base of support in the media which gave him free positive spin with very little critical review.

Ask an Obama supporter about his positions, specifically the ones they like the most. You will get blank stares. You will get that they like his vision of change. Obama offered very little details and his audience did not care. They hear about all the great government programs they are going to get and fail to see the other side of the coin.

In the arena of ideas, Obama and most democrats will get smoked. It doesn't matter though. They are better with persuasive arguments that lure in supporters.

You are flat out wrong about Palin and calling her 'a joke'. She was exactly what I was looking for in a vice president. I like that she was not a lawyer. I like that she was from outside the beltway. Sure she was not as polished as some of the other career politicians, but that is not a concern for me. I've had enough of career politicians. I care about her positions and philosophy for government. That is what matters, and on those issues she shines. Biden and Obama simply resort to partisan politics and some sort of government program or handout.

Where did you see the republicans resort to name calling? I am sure there was some of it somewhere, but what I mostly saw was character assassinations from the democratic surrogates.

Harvard, Brown, and Yale pimp out thousands of grads each year. Do you think each one of them is Presidential material on that alone? Nonsense.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Well I hope my two businesses can afford the Obama presidency. I fully understand why he won, great speaker, maybe the best since MLK Jr. He appealed to a cyclical downturn, we can't be growing 24/7 for 100 years! I do believe we have not seen the last of Sarah Palin, she to is charismatic and a good speaker. Saying because Obama went to Harvard makes him smart in one phrase and saying a Yale graduate is dumb just does not makes since, I have not read the entire thread so I am not saying someone hear has done that but have heard many of the President Elect supporters call our current President. I am politically active in my Red State, Alabama, helped a friend win a State Representative seat and I attended the ARP annual conference and banquet. Sorry for the long post, I just pray that we will all be safe, financially successful and can keep all of our rights as United States citizens under Democratic control.

As long as he sticks to his cue cards. And has only an adoring crowd in front of him.

[gman]

Thank you. But in the State of Michigan, physicians are required to operate (pun intended) as a PLLC.

A PLLC is taxed the same as an LLC, I just want to make sure you get the deduction, check again with your tax guy and make sure.

It used to be that self employed health insurance was only 50% deductible, but the rules change and they phased it in until it was 100% deductible.

My practice is a PLLC as well, and we deduct our health insurance personally, but not on the 1065 form.

Back to the debate, I am eating popcorn and enjoying it!

I will add on Reverend Wright. I heard Obama say something to the effect of: who agrees 100% with his pastor.

Well I do, because my pastor speaks only of spiritual matters. I can't understand how black church pastors are allowed to talk politics from the pulpit. It is a very fast way to get your tax exempt status taken away if you are doing it often, because it has nothing to do with religion. Our churches we have attended over the years always emphasized that they could not talk politics, take sides, etc.

[JackBauer]

HE HAS NO EXPERIENCE

Sorry Dr. John - did you forget...

He has tons of experience...

At constantly running for the next higher office.

:)

[snook]

I will add on Reverend Wright. I heard Obama say something to the effect of: who agrees 100% with his pastor.


It is tough to hold someone accountable for what their friends do or say, but in this case I personally believe President-elect Obama was absolutely disingenuous with his explanations (of the past 20 years sitting in the pews and in regards to their relationship). That is what concerns me.

[JackBauer]

Ask an Obama supporter about his positions, specifically the ones they like the most. You will get blank stares. You will get that they like his vision of change. Obama offered very little details and his audience did not care. They hear about all the great government programs they are going to get and fail to see the other side of the coin.


You nailed that. Although let's not assume all BO supporters were naive - some may really do want an entitlement economy, thinking it is right for the country. Some may truly believe that building consensus internationally, is better for us in the long run, than acting primarily in our best interests and fighting hard for it.

I just got so friggin sick and tired of hearing people talking about how bad things are, and we need "change" and "McSame" and crap like that - without talking about what the candidates actually stood for policy-wise... And of course character. And if you were to ask those people specific questions, you risk them getting very irate with you quickly.

Well as I said - if it all works out, I will be happy and relieved. If it doesn't, the throngs of people who voted on one single ideal, and nothing else (for the most part) - will have gotten what they deserved.

And the reverse will happen in 2012... Maybe Bobby Jindal will be in the White House (someone with charisma like BO)... And the House and Senate will go back to the republicans.

But I do think BO will come to his senses and govern from the center, regardless of what he ran on. He knows what the popular vote was - and he knows what doesn't sit well with mainstream America... And of course he can't be that stupid as to substantially raise our debt further.

[Bulldog]

It is tough to hold someone accountable for what their friends do or say, but in this case I personally believe President-elect Obama was absolutely disingenuous with his explanations (of the past 20 years sitting in the pews and in regards to their relationship). That is what concerns me.

Absolutely. There is no way it took Obama 20 years to figure out what Rev. Wright was all about. The only reason he left the church is because it all came out during his campaign for president of the United States of America. Anyone who doesn't see that is blind.

Obama is nothing but a puppet for the Dem's. There is no way he will be governing from the center with Rahm Emanuel as his chief of staff. Anyone who believes that he will is crazy. And I personally don't see appointing half of the Clinton administration back into power as "change".

[anyman]

Bingo. Look at our tax laws. Hundreds of thousands of pages of them.

I am sick of seeing the tax code used as a tool of social policy. We end up with a disjointed, incoherent and utterly incomprehensible mess, which in turn requires an army of specialized tax people to maintain, interpret and enforce. All this brainpower put to use useless an endeavor...... China makes goods and products. We make tax accountants. Guess who'll rise to them top?

Obama appealed to essentially 2 kinds of people: The largely self inflicted "poor" and more wealthy coastal liberals. Regular people in the middle were left holding their collective you know whats. My office is filled with people who voted for him- the mail room crowd and self righteous liberals who long for "social justice", including health care. Don't ask them who will PAY for this health care and how those benefitting from it should earn it, however.

In the end, Bush is to a large extent a prime factor in Obama's ascendance. He became a remarkably tone deaf and bumbling parody of himself, who at best was clueless and who enjoyed one of the lowest approval ratings ever. Under him the budget deficit exploded,something a true fiscal conservative would never have done.

Me personally? I'd like to see the Republicans return to being the party of fiscal sanity and stop pandering to the far right religious groups. I respect others' right to believe in whatever theory gives them peace, but want same affirmatively OUT of government. Remember "separation of Church & State"?

The evangelical vote, while loud, does not represent anything approaching a majority and too often seeks to inject religious principles & morality into Government, all to our mutual detriment. Example: gay rights. Do I care about them? No. Am I gay? No way. Do I care that they want to not be discriminated against? Treat them like anyone else. Do I want this as an election issue? No. Leave the social issues OUT of government and focus on what's important.

[JackBauer]

Obama is nothing but a puppet for the Dem's. There is no way he will be governing from the center with Rahm Emanuel as his chief of staff. Anyone who believes that he will is crazy. And I personally don't see appointing half of the Clinton administration back into power as "change".

Um, Clinton governed from the center. I didn't say he would lead from there, but it is possible. It is also possible he is a puppet for MoveOn, I just do not see that sitting well with most people in this country.

[Bulldog]

Um, Clinton governed from the center. I didn't say he would lead from there, but it is possible. It is also possible he is a puppet for MoveOn, I just do not see that sitting well with most people in this country.

Clinton started governing from the center but kept moving left as pressure from his party came upon him. Obama will be no different except that he has Emanuel leading the way. Some people seem to think he will help things stay in the center but I don't think that will be the case.

[GirlyMan]

While I don't have much to add to this discussion (as a lifelong registered Republican in the People's Republic of Maryland, I resigned myself long ago to the fact my opinion on National Political issues is largely irrelevant - I did get to vote on allowing early voting and slot machines in Maryland, though), I would like to echo the theme that JackBauer, Teegun and others have put forward that we must now all pull together if we are to climb out of this steaming pile of shit we find ourselves in.

My sincere hope is that the Democrats will not run roughshod over the Republicans the way the Republicans did to them (much to my embarassment and chagrin). But I fear the only way this will not happen is if the new President does not allow it. I will feel much more comfortable about this if I see some Republicans named to the new Cabinet.

[JackBauer]

Obama will be no different except that he has Emanuel leading the way. Some people seem to think he will help things stay in the center but I don't think that will be the case.

At first I was a bit concerned about Emanuel...

But then I heard about this:

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/11/lindsey_graham_praises_emanuel.php

That gave me some comfort in knowing Lindsay Graham has spoken highly of him. We'll have to see how it works out.

If he stays with Gates as SOD, or picks another Republican, that would go over nicely I think.

[Dr. John Crisler]

While I don't have much to add to this discussion (as a lifelong registered Republican in the People's Republic of Maryland, I resigned myself long ago to the fact my opinion on National Political issues is largely irrelevant - I did get to vote on allowing early voting and slot machines in Maryland, though), I would like to echo the theme that JackBauer, Teegun and others have put forward that we must now all pull together if we are to climb out of this steaming pile of shit we find ourselves in.

My sincere hope is that the Democrats will not run roughshod over the Republicans the way the Republicans did to them (much to my embarassment and chagrin). But I fear the only way this will not happen is if the new President does not allow it. I will feel much more comfortable about this if I see some Republicans named to the new Cabinet.
Can you give me an example of what you speak?

And do you not remember how the Dems treated the Republicans prior to us gaining control?

[Dr. John Crisler]

A PLLC is taxed the same as an LLC, I just want to make sure you get the deduction, check again with your tax guy and make sure.

It used to be that self employed health insurance was only 50% deductible, but the rules change and they phased it in until it was 100% deductible.

My practice is a PLLC as well, and we deduct our health insurance personally, but not on the 1065 form.

Back to the debate, I am eating popcorn and enjoying it!

I will add on Reverend Wright. I heard Obama say something to the effect of: who agrees 100% with his pastor.

Well I do, because my pastor speaks only of spiritual matters. I can't understand how black church pastors are allowed to talk politics from the pulpit. It is a very fast way to get your tax exempt status taken away if you are doing it often, because it has nothing to do with religion. Our churches we have attended over the years always emphasized that they could not talk politics, take sides, etc.
Hmmm...I've discussed this a couple itmes with my accountant. Will be happy to do so again.

Yes, I am very much in favor of the Constitutional separation of church and state. Unfortunately, some churches want that arrangement to go in only one direction.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Sorry Dr. John - did you forget...

He has tons of experience...

At constantly running for the next higher office.

:)
Well, you got me on that one!

Gosh, a whole 143 days in the Senate. But a woman who has spent years governing EVERYTHING up to and including a huge state, with peculiar issues, has to prove herself worthy of being one step from the presidency. What am I missing here? LOL

[GirlyMan]

Can you give me an example of what you speak?

Well as far as me being embarassed by my own party, I recall this quote from 2004 very well.

"President Bush ran forthrightly on a clear agenda for this nation's future, and the nation responded by giving him a mandate." - Dick Cheney on President Bush's re-election in 2004 with an Electoral College margin of 286 to 251 (with 1 for John Edwards in Minnesota) and a popular vote margin of 50.7% to 48.3%.

That kinda set the tone for the legislature from 2004-2006. I'm hoping Obama/Biden don't use the same "mandate" criteria.


And do you not remember how the Dems treated the Republicans prior to us gaining control?

Of course. Been that way for as long as I can remember. If Obama really means it when he says "change" ... well, I'll just wait and see.

[Wise Guy]

That is not why they lost. They lost because 53% of the republic was enamored with a simple, meaningless, campaign motto of change. There was a massive base of support in the media which gave him free positive spin with very little critical review.

Agreed. The republicans simply are in a bad position with the economy.



Ask an Obama supporter about his positions, specifically the ones they like the most. You will get blank stares. You will get that they like his vision of change. Obama offered very little details and his audience did not care. They hear about all the great government programs they are going to get and fail to see the other side of the coin.

Thats case by case. You can speak to a bunch of republicans and get the same "blank" stares.



You are flat out wrong about Palin and calling her 'a joke'.

Nope, I'm right, and given that most of America is on my side here, I will go ahead and call this a landslide in my direction ;) Maybe the older, more conservative republicans like her. But the young republicans of this country who are coming in to run things, like myself and many of my close friends, ALL are in total agree that she is a HUGE reason why McCain lost the election, that she is a complete moron and its quite obvious she knows little of foreign or domestic affairs. Her completely scripted debate was all the proof we need.



Harvard, Brown, and Yale pimp out thousands of grads each year. Do you think each one of them is Presidential material on that alone? Nonsense.

No. They usually go on to be successful Lawyers, execs, and business men. Communication majors end up as housewives. :D

Don't worry I still love you snook :p

[Wise Guy]

Name calling was never the issue. Republicans lost for several reasons...

1. a general hatred of Bush resulted in a general repudiation of Republicans. It was an uphill battle from the start.

2. very charismatic alternative presented by Democrats.

3. if you examine the collective exit polls across all states, the number of voters who call themselves liberal was tiny. The number that call themselves conservatives significant. Yet, these voters who align themselves with conservative ideals crossed the line. This was for a couple reasons. Generally speaking Obama ran a much more conservative campaign than history suggests is his true beliefs. The current conservative powers havent acted conservatively. They need to return to these ideals as we have always been a right of center country.

You say they resorted to character attacks instead of issues, but then say they should have hit him on Rev. Wright. Would this not be a character attack? Of course it would be and they should have hit him hard on this, but McCain chose not to. This was a mistake. In Obama's own words, he sat in that church 2x per month for 20 years and he never knew Wright felt like this? Are we that stupid to believe that? I guess we are.

Name calling - have you ever heard Keith Olberman on MSNBC or Bill Maher or name anyone that isnt on Fox. The media was all over McCain and Palin as they annointed their messiah. They were like giddy school girls over him. Democrats have the benefit of the media to do much of their dirty work.

Going to Harvard isn't an automatic qualification for President. Could you imagine if McCain had his charisma, and Obama had McCains and if the party labels weren't attached to either candidate - instead they were Party A and Party B. Do you think the outcome would have been the same? Charisma is nice, but it isnt enough for me. As they say, too much icing and not enough cake.

Oh well, what is done is done - in the end I hope he turns out to be the best President ever cause we need it.

Time to talk issues.

Well said. Agreed with everything you said.

[Wise Guy]

I'll insert my points. Sorry about the caps.

Ahem, Dr. John, we have really got to get you up to speed with using multiple quote's. I cannot reply to anything you said!

Wait.....Maybe that was your intentions all along :p

But thanks anyways for the kind words.

[Wise Guy]

I would like to echo the theme that JackBauer, Teegun and others have put forward that we must now all pull together if we are to climb out of this steaming pile of shit we find ourselves in.

.

Our major problems of this country are completely Bi-Partisan, and blame can be thrown at both sides. These are NOT party issues. We need to work together.

1. Health care needs to be pushed into preventive care

2. We need to end the American Global Military Presence

3. We need sound economic policy that stresses the value of the dollar, and stops this runaway printing of money.

[Wise Guy]

Well, you got me on that one!

Gosh, a whole 143 days in the Senate. But a woman who has spent years governing EVERYTHING up to and including a huge state, with peculiar issues, has to prove herself worthy of being one step from the presidency. What am I missing here? LOL

A state with the population the size of a medium city, LOL.

Its too bad Michael Bloomberg doesn't want any part of the presidency. Anyone who can run New York City, which is essentially the un-named capital of the known world, can run this country just fine.

[anyman]

A state with the population the size of a medium city, LOL.

Its too bad Michael Bloomberg doesn't want any part of the presidency. Anyone who can run New York City, which is essentially the un-named capital of the known world, can run this country just fine.

That ego maniacal SOB thinks a little too highly of himself and thought nothing of trouncing the Constitution with his ever more insidious attacks on 2nd Amendment rights.

He thinks a little too highly of himself and is of the "do as I say and not as I do variety". I'll pass.

Give me a man like Colin Powell instead.

[Wise Guy]

That ego maniacal SOB thinks a little too highly of himself and thought nothing of trouncing the Constitution with his ever more insidious attacks on 2nd Amendment rights.

He thinks a little too highly of himself and is of the "do as I say and not as I do variety". I'll pass.

Give me a man like Colin Powell instead.

He is by no means perfect.

But as McCains running mate? Please. Would have garnered WAY more of the vote than that joke Palin did. Might have been enough to swing many blue states.

Let us not forget Colin Powell supported Barack Obama :)

[thrombus]

I'm glad to see that so many members here were so actively involved in this year's presidential election. That said, I found some of the comments in this thread amusing in their highly charged partisan positions. Personally, I hope and believe that Obama's administration will contain a mix of Democrats and Republicans and he will lead the nation's political discourse away from party fighting that does little to solve national issues.

We can blame the media and the idiocy of the voting public for why one guy won the presidential election and the other guy lost. It seems remarkably clear, though, that the winning guy ran the better campaign.

I encourage everyone to stay involved in the nation's political issues and work to ensure that elected officials work together to implement solutions, regardless of party affiliation.

[Wise Guy]

. It seems remarkably clear, though, that the winning guy ran the better campaign.



Great post, and I couldn't agree more than this statement.

It really troubles me that my fellow Republicans blame everyone and everything, blame the media, blame George Bush, resort to name calling, etc., and don't face the facts as what they are - They ran a crap campaign, and that Barack Obama simply presented himself as well spoken, intelligent and charismatic.

We cannot roll out some frumpy, grumpy old man again and expect him to beat a smooth cat like Barack. No way, no how.

Again, I cannot stress this enough. Looks, charisma, charm, and an exuberance of pure testosterone is what really won this election. That frumpy, grumpy, tempermental old man simply did not stand a chance. And his clueless, hardly educated side kick was fuel to the fire.

We are not a party of blamers. We need to get SMART. We need to out fox and out think.

[Dr. John Crisler]

A state with the population the size of a medium city, LOL.
Its too bad Michael Bloomberg doesn't want any part of the presidency. Anyone who can run New York City, which is essentially the un-named capital of the known world, can run this country just fine.
You really do not grasp the magnitude of the operation.

On top of that is the sheer size, as it would stretch across the entire lower 48, Atlantic to Pacific. And it borders two foreign countries. One antagonistic. The other merely annoying. LOL

Obama has been in charge of what now? Oh, ya, a school newspaper. Well, that is obviously more impressive than being a state governor!

[Dr. John Crisler]

Ahem, Dr. John, we have really got to get you up to speed with using multiple quote's. I cannot reply to anything you said!

Wait.....Maybe that was your intentions all along :p

But thanks anyways for the kind words.
Nope. I'm just not that clever.

[JackBauer]

Our major problems of this country are completely Bi-Partisan, and blame can be thrown at both sides. These are NOT party issues. We need to work together.

1. Health care needs to be pushed into preventive care

2. We need to end the American Global Military Presence

3. We need sound economic policy that stresses the value of the dollar, and stops this runaway printing of money.

Absolutely right on #1 and #3.

On #2... Would you prefer a Chinese Global Military Presence? I do have concerns about intervention where not appropriate... But the words Peace through Strength have meaning. I'm quite sure countries like Japan appreciate our Global Military Presence... (Although certainly not all of its citizens)

Oh but there is no way in hell McCain lost because of Palin... Not saying she is not without some baggage - but to suggest she made the difference. That's just crazy talk.

[Wise Guy]

You really do not grasp the magnitude of the operation.

On top of that is the sheer size, as it would stretch across the entire lower 48, Atlantic to Pacific. And it borders two foreign countries. One antagonistic. The other merely annoying. LOL

Obama has been in charge of what now? Oh, ya, a school newspaper. Well, that is obviously more impressive than being a state governor!

Ug! Dr. John, Sara Palin is NOT what we want as the face of the republican party!

We need someone that carries many of the same traits that Barack Obama does. Highly educated, charismatic, young, energetic, good looking and a great debater. Palin just doesn't measure up, and it was blaringly apparent come debate time. She looked shook up during the debate, nervous, obviously scripted. Her lack of education, her lack of knowledge about many domestic and foreign issues was glaring. While you might not agree with this assessment, an overwhelming majority of America did.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this :D

[Wise Guy]

. The other merely annoying. LOL

!

Those Canucks are annoying, aren't they.

FYI, you Canucks are welcome for all the trash we Michiganders allow you to import :mad:

[Wise Guy]

Absolutely right on #1 and #3.

On #2... Would you prefer a Chinese Global Military Presence? I do have concerns about intervention where not appropriate... But the words Peace through Strength have meaning. I'm quite sure countries like Japan appreciate our Global Military Presence... (Although certainly not all of its citizens)

Oh but there is no way in hell McCain lost because of Palin... Not saying she is not without some baggage - but to suggest she made the difference. That's just crazy talk.

China needs us badly, just as we need them. They are not a threat nor should we feel threatened by them. I understand that the cold war has left a generation of people full of paranoia, but as a Gen-Y'er, I simply don't view them that way.

Trust me, wait till the people of China wake up and realize they do not want to be ruled by a communist government. It will be a revolution. China has insurmountable problems to deal with. They are their own biggest threat.

We cannot afford to police the world anymore. Nor do I want my tax dollars to.

[joe143]

Ug! Dr. John, Sara Palin is NOT what we want as the face of the republican party!

We need someone that carries many of the same traits that Barack Obama does. Highly educated, charismatic, young, energetic, good looking and a great debater. Palin just doesn't measure up, and it was blaringly apparent come debate time. She looked shook up during the debate, nervous, obviously scripted. Her lack of education, her lack of knowledge about many domestic and foreign issues was glaring. While you might not agree with this assessment, an overwhelming majority of America did.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this :D

I think Palin's good looking :)

[cpeil2]

China needs us badly, just as we need them. They are not a threat nor should we feel threatened by them. I understand that the cold war has left a generation of people full of paranoia, but as a Gen-Y'er, I simply don't view them that way.

Trust me, wait till the people of China wake up and realize they do not want to be ruled by a communist government. It will be a revolution. China has insurmountable problems to deal with. They are their own biggest threat.

We cannot afford to police the world anymore. Nor do I want my tax dollars to.


One of McCain's best buds, Larry Eagleburger, said he thought she wasn't ready to assume the presidency and that, although she wouldn't be a great president, she could be adequate. Talk about damning with faint praise . . . .

[GirlyMan]

China needs us badly, just as we need them. They are not a threat nor should we feel threatened by them.

Oh we should feel threatened by them. Believe me when I tell you we should feel very threatened by them.

(My apologies to all my Chinese brethren here, I momentarily forgot that we are an international forum).

[JackBauer]

Oh we should feel threatened by them. Believe me when I tell you we should feel very threatened by them.

In what way are you referring to?

I have great concerns over their long term strategic planning to control world resources... Whether it is oil or raw materials... Of course the difficult situation with Taiwan is what is likely our most immediate threat.

But they are systematically stealing our military and commercial technology - and we ourselves are financing them to do so.

[GirlyMan]

In what way are you referring to?

I'm not referring to anything specifically.

They are over 5000 years old. Their perspective of "immediate", "short-term", and "long-term" is significantly different than ours. Their "immediate" is likely several times (if not an order of magnitude) longer than our "long-term".

I do not fear them so much as respect them. What I do fear is that if we continue to act like a teenager on steroids, the old men sitting around the bar will eventually feel obliged to teach us a lesson. (And this is coming from someone who as a teenager was taught many lessons by the old men sitting around the bar. Was never on steroids, but it wouldn't have mattered.)

[Wise Guy]

In what way are you referring to?

I have great concerns over their long term strategic planning to control world resources... Whether it is oil or raw materials... Of course the difficult situation with Taiwan is what is likely our most immediate threat.

But they are systematically stealing our military and commercial technology - and we ourselves are financing them to do so.

Once we adopt and implement green technology fully, including complete public transportation, the there is absolutely nothing the world can offer us that we cannot manufacture right here in the U.S. Energy independence will set us free.

Taiwan? We have bigger problems at home.

[JackBauer]

Once we adopt and implement green technology fully, including complete public transportation, the there is absolutely nothing the world can offer us that we cannot manufacture right here in the U.S. Energy independence will set us free.



Are you saying that low cost, renewable energy, and ubiquitous public transportation - will completely reverse globalization?

[anyman]

Are you saying that low cost, renewable energy, and ubiquitous public transportation - will completely reverse globalization?

As I recall, Wiseguy is in his early 20s. If that. Ahhh, the certainty of youth. We here in the US seem remarkably adept at making our own competition by shipping jobs & technology overseas. Stupid and shortsighted.

[anyman]

I'm not referring to anything specifically.

They are over 5000 years old. Their perspective of "immediate", "short-term", and "long-term" is significantly different than ours. Their "immediate" is likely several times (if not an order of magnitude) longer than our "long-term".

I do not fear them so much as respect them. What I do fear is that if we continue to act like a teenager on steroids, the old men sitting around the bar will eventually feel obliged to teach us a lesson. (And this is coming from someone who as a teenager was taught many lessons by the old men sitting around the bar. Was never on steroids, but it wouldn't have mattered.)

China has a very long term perspective. We're lucky if we can think 2 weeks ahead, or maybe the next quarter if we're really lucky.

Here we think only to the next quarter, hence out fascination with shipping jobs & technology overseas "to save on labor". All we do is create future competition and bring us all down to a far lower common denominator. Not smart in the least.

[gman]

I think Palin's good looking :)

I think if our wives looked like her, we may not have a need for TRT.:p

[snook]

He is by no means perfect.

But as McCains running mate? Please. Would have garnered WAY more of the vote than that joke Palin did. Might have been enough to swing many blue states.

Let us not forget Colin Powell supported Barack Obama :)

I find it funny how you continue to refer to Gov. Palin as a 'joke'. By all accounts, she is more accomplished than President-elect Obama, and certainly has more executive experience than Joe Biden. As a mayor and governor she actually has had to take a stand and lead people. Neither of our future leaders have done that.

You seem to put a lot of emphasis on her debate, which actually went well. Both sides were obviously scripted, the difference being that Biden was doing something he has spent the past 35 years doing. Gov. Palin was busy doing productive things like cleaning out Alaskan corruption and governing a state.
She joins the campaign and is immediately thrust into that position. Contrast that with Obama who can't make an ad lib statement without mumbling incoherent thoughts. Also remember that Obama has been running this campaign for over a year and a half. I sure hope he would have all his scripts replies ready by then.

[chatadmin]

Hello Everyone,

I haven't read this entire thread, but it seems way off-topic for this forum. I'm just wondering why it hasn't been moved to the off-topic forum?

CA

[snook]

We cannot afford to police the world anymore. Nor do I want my tax dollars to.

That's right. It's a fine line (see my signature :) ) between policing the world and protecting our interests.

One of the few actual responsibilities of the federal government is a strong military...along with stable national currency. (Healthcare, education, Dept of Happiness...are not the responsibility of the federal government- but I will save that for another thread on another day.)

Protecting our friends (of late namely Poland, Taiwan, Israel) with our military prowess is sound national defense. On occasion we actually have to use it. Terrorism (state-sponsored and otherwise) has thrown a real wrench into the equation, and unfortunately we have to be more active abroad than we want. Despite his overtures during the campaign, don't expect Obama to make major changes here.

[GirlyMan]

I haven't read this entire thread, but it seems way off-topic for this forum. I'm just wondering why it hasn't been moved to the off-topic forum?

CA

Indeed, please do that chatdamin.

[chatadmin]

Indeed, please do that chatdamin.

No problem, I will move this thread at your request.

CA

[may19th2001]

He appears to be the only candidate who has read the Constitution.

However, he plays too much to the fringe element to be taken seriously.

He also does not present well. It's obvious Americans are easily fooled by someone they fantacize as charasmatic--even though it's only because a candidate never faces tough questions, or the cameras turn away when he is making faces and looking annoyed. Think about it: Abraham Lincoln would never make it in politics today. He was ugly and had a terrible voice.

What have we come to? God help us.

Indeed what have things come to.
Wonder how we would have been off with Bill Richardson Gov (D) NM.
What a mess things are in, and I hate to see where things may take us.

I would say Mccain we would have been better off with, I knew this darn (D)
was going to get it, however I hated to see it.

If medicine should have been sociliized it should have been done at the time of JFK, and not 4-5 decades later, for the governmnet to take more control over and say what we can and what we cant do, what when and where you can go see a Physician as well as how long you have to wait to go see one.

Indeed God help us....

[may19th2001]

You really do not grasp the magnitude of the operation.

On top of that is the sheer size, as it would stretch across the entire lower 48, Atlantic to Pacific. And it borders two foreign countries. One antagonistic. The other merely annoying. LOL

Obama has been in charge of what now? Oh, ya, a school newspaper. Well, that is obviously more impressive than being a state governor!


How did he do it, indeed with the help of the media and all the (D) that had so much to do with it.

So the neighbors down the street with 6 kids parents staying home all day while we work our rears off to make and and see the government reward them for not working.

Wonder if this country will ever have another good President again...

How deep are we going in now people, lets just wait and see.

[Dr. John Crisler]

If you think that is outrageous, hang on!
Well as far as me being embarassed by my own party, I recall this quote from 2004 very well.

"President Bush ran forthrightly on a clear agenda for this nation's future, and the nation responded by giving him a mandate." - Dick Cheney on President Bush's re-election in 2004 with an Electoral College margin of 286 to 251 (with 1 for John Edwards in Minnesota) and a popular vote margin of 50.7% to 48.3%.

That kinda set the tone for the legislature from 2004-2006. I'm hoping Obama/Biden don't use the same "mandate" criteria.



Of course. Been that way for as long as I can remember. If Obama really means it when he says "change" ... well, I'll just wait and see.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Agreed. The republicans simply are in a bad position with the economy.



Thats case by case. You can speak to a bunch of republicans and get the same "blank" stares.



Nope, I'm right, and given that most of America is on my side here, I will go ahead and call this a landslide in my direction ;) Maybe the older, more conservative republicans like her. But the young republicans of this country who are coming in to run things, like myself and many of my close friends, ALL are in total agree that she is a HUGE reason why McCain lost the election, that she is a complete moron and its quite obvious she knows little of foreign or domestic affairs. Her completely scripted debate was all the proof we need.


No. They usually go on to be successful Lawyers, execs, and business men. Communication majors end up as housewives. :D

Don't worry I still love you snook :p
Talk about "calling names". To say a woman of her talent AND EXPERIENCE is a "complete moron" says much about you, and really nothing about her. Please give that some thought.

Young men never like to hear this--I didn't at your age--but once you get out into the world, try to start and run a business, etc., I guarantee your perspective will change. Look forward to it.

Again, do you not realize EVERY speach is scripted? Apparently, you were not listening, or looking at, Joe Biden.

[Dr. John Crisler]

China needs us badly, just as we need them. They are not a threat nor should we feel threatened by them. I understand that the cold war has left a generation of people full of paranoia, but as a Gen-Y'er, I simply don't view them that way.

Trust me, wait till the people of China wake up and realize they do not want to be ruled by a communist government. It will be a revolution. China has insurmountable problems to deal with. They are their own biggest threat.

We cannot afford to police the world anymore. Nor do I want my tax dollars to.
Oh, for the halcyon days of youth and enthusiasm!

[Dr. John Crisler]

As I recall, Wiseguy is in his early 20s. If that. Ahhh, the certainty of youth. We here in the US seem remarkably adept at making our own competition by shipping jobs & technology overseas. Stupid and shortsighted.
They go there because of stifling taxes, regulation and labor costs.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I find it funny how you continue to refer to Gov. Palin as a 'joke'. By all accounts, she is more accomplished than President-elect Obama, and certainly has more executive experience than Joe Biden. As a mayor and governor she actually has had to take a stand and lead people. Neither of our future leaders have done that.

You seem to put a lot of emphasis on her debate, which actually went well. Both sides were obviously scripted, the difference being that Biden was doing something he has spent the past 35 years doing. Gov. Palin was busy doing productive things like cleaning out Alaskan corruption and governing a state.
She joins the campaign and is immediately thrust into that position. Contrast that with Obama who can't make an ad lib statement without mumbling incoherent thoughts. Also remember that Obama has been running this campaign for over a year and a half. I sure hope he would have all his scripts replies ready by then.
They're not "incoherent thoughts". They are what he REALLY thinks. THAT is the scary part. We now have a socialist president.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Hello Everyone,

I haven't read this entire thread, but it seems way off-topic for this forum. I'm just wondering why it hasn't been moved to the off-topic forum?

CA

I don't care where it is; it's a good conversation.

[Wise Guy]

Are you saying that low cost, renewable energy, and ubiquitous public transportation - will completely reverse globalization?

When it comes to energy, YES

[Wise Guy]

I find it funny how you continue to refer to Gov. Palin as a 'joke'. By all accounts, she is more accomplished than President-elect Obama, and certainly has more executive experience than Joe Biden. As a mayor and governor she actually has had to take a stand and lead people. Neither of our future leaders have done that.

You seem to put a lot of emphasis on her debate, which actually went well. Both sides were obviously scripted, the difference being that Biden was doing something he has spent the past 35 years doing. Gov. Palin was busy doing productive things like cleaning out Alaskan corruption and governing a state.
She joins the campaign and is immediately thrust into that position. Contrast that with Obama who can't make an ad lib statement without mumbling incoherent thoughts. Also remember that Obama has been running this campaign for over a year and a half. I sure hope he would have all his scripts replies ready by then.

LOL Only neo conservatives consider her of any intelligence.

I don't need to argue Palin. Pretty much 90% of the country is on my side here.

She is an embarrassment.

[Wise Guy]

So i did a little digging around, and I found out this.

It took Sara Palin 6 years, and 5 different universities, to finish her pithy, little useless communications degree.

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH :D

Embarrassing.

I'm really glad we are ushering out this "old guard", grumpy old repulicans.

Ok. I've said my peace on this thread I'm out. :D

[Bulldog]

So i did a little digging around, and I found out this.

It took Sara Palin 6 years, and 5 different universities, to finish her pithy, little useless communications degree.

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH :D

Embarrassing.

I'm really glad we are ushering out this "old guard", grumpy old repulicans.

Ok. I've said my peace on this thread I'm out. :D

Are you sure you are a republican?

I will say it again. What degree someone holds or even how long it took someone to get a degree means absolutely nothing in the real world.

Once you get out of school and start working with some of these "highly educated" people you will see that the degrees they hold and the letters after their names don't necessarily mean anything. It varies by the individual. There are an awful lot of people out there who can get through college and get a degree but do not know how to apply what they learned in the real world. And there are a lot of people who never went to college that learn on the job who are a lot better at their jobs than the people with degrees in their field. One day you will see that this is true.....or maybe you won't see it....but it is still true.

[snook]

LOL Only neo conservatives consider her of any intelligence.

I don't need to argue Palin. Pretty much 90% of the country is on my side here.

She is an embarrassment.

Nothing but conjecture here...move on.

[snook]

So i did a little digging around, and I found out this.

It took Sara Palin 6 years, and 5 different universities, to finish her pithy, little useless communications degree.

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH :D

Embarrassing.

I'm really glad we are ushering out this "old guard", grumpy old repulicans.

Ok. I've said my peace on this thread I'm out. :D

Coming from someone who has a B.S., M.S., and MBA - collegiate education is mostly a certification that someone has some discipline and ability to learn. The type of degree that someone has does matter, but there are some extremely brilliant people to come out from the Bachelor of Arts programs...which are generally regarded to be of less difficultly.

You are very judgmental in this regard, and I am not sure why.

Have you noticed that Rahm Emanuel has essentially the same degree as Mrs. Palin - a masters in Speech and Communication. He just studied the same coursework for 2-3 more years!

[Wise Guy]

Fellas, If we roll out this Pig with lipstick in 2012, we will lose.

And we will lose bigtime.

Thats just a cold, hard fact that I, and most republicans, have accepted.

Some here cannot grasp this.

Mark my words.

We need to send her back to the forest in Alaska where she belongs.

[snook]

Fellas, If we roll out this Pig with lipstick in 2012, we will lose.

And we will lose bigtime.

Thats just a cold, hard fact that I, and most republicans, have accepted.

Some here cannot grasp this.

Mark my words.

We need to send her back to the forest in Alaska where she belongs.

And now you take things out of context? Who said she wouldn't lose big time? I personally think right now she has a lot of baggage based on the negative and biased media coverage. I don't disagree with you, it would be tough for her to win a national campaign.

I do take issue with your continued character assassinations of her. They do nothing to promote the discussion or understand the value and perspectives she brings to the table. Her ideas and philosophy of limited government are right up my alley.

Why don't you talk about her ideas? What about her idea to freeze federal spending? What about the Alaska Health Care Transparency Act she brought forth?

I could sit here all day and rail about Obama and Biden, but what good with that do? We have to win on ideas and message. The democrats won on message alone in convincing fashion.

[snook]

LOL Only neo conservatives consider her of any intelligence.
I don't need to argue Palin. Pretty much 90% of the country is on my side here.
She is an embarrassment.

BTW

"Seventy-one percent (71%) of Republicans say John McCain made the right choice by picking Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as his running mate, Palin has been the subject of largely critical media coverage but has attracted some of the most enthusiastic crowds of either campaign. Sixty-five percent (65%) of GOP voters say the party picked the right nominee for president."

Source: November 4 - Rasmussen Poll
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/palin_more_popular_with_gop_voters_than_mccain

[cpeil2]

BTW

"Seventy-one percent (71%) of Republicans say John McCain made the right choice by picking Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as his running mate, Palin has been the subject of largely critical media coverage but has attracted some of the most enthusiastic crowds of either campaign. Sixty-five percent (65%) of GOP voters say the party picked the right nominee for president."

Source: November 4 - Rasmussen Poll
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_20082/2008_presidential_election/palin_more_popular_with_gop_voters_than_mccain


But she definitely cost him a lot of those all-important swing voters.

[cpeil2]

Hear at business school, we have a saying for communication majors.

:)


Careful - everything is relative. People majoring in the hard sciences and engineering tend to dismiss business majors as lightweights who can't handle the intellectual rigor of technical degree programs.

[Bulldog]

LOL Only neo conservatives consider her of any intelligence.

I don't need to argue Palin. Pretty much 90% of the country is on my side here.

She is an embarrassment.

I find this hard to believe. Every republican I personally know thought she was a great choice for the vice presidential running mate. Not to mention the polls referenced above prove you are wrong.

She has more backbone than both Obama and Biden combined. Neither of them will even vote against their own party let alone take on and reform them like she did in Alaska. Obama is a smooth talker....nothing more. That is the only thing he has proven himself to be.

[GirlyMan]

Every republican I personally know thought she was a great choice for the vice presidential running mate.

I don't think she was a very good choice. She energized the base but as cpeil2 pointed out she alienated enough of the swing voters that McCain never stood a chance. In hindsight, if McCain had been able to foresee the financial disaster Romney would've made a much better choice (of course if I had been able to foresee the financial disaster I wouldn't have lost a third of my retirement in a few short weeks :().

That said, WiseGuy is seriously underestimating her talents as a gifted and natural politician. The fact that she was able to go from being a small-town mayor to Governor in 4 years is demonstrable proof of this. We have not seen the last of her. I think we will see her in the Senate next.

[Dr. John Crisler]

But she definitely cost him a lot of those all-important swing voters.
That is only because of the unfair ridiculous attacks on her by the corrupt Liberal media.

They decided to vilify her; the sheep followed. Or should I say the lemmings...

Let me see: she has WAY more experience than Obama (who, BTW, has exactly zero), but SHE has to justify her experience. Well, that makes perfect sense to me!

[Dr. John Crisler]

Careful - everything is relative. People majoring in the hard sciences and engineering tend to dismiss business majors as lightweights who can't handle the intellectual rigor of technical degree programs.
Ya, what he said!

[Dr. John Crisler]

So i did a little digging around, and I found out this.

It took Sara Palin 6 years, and 5 different universities, to finish her pithy, little useless communications degree.

BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH :D

Embarrassing.

I'm really glad we are ushering out this "old guard", grumpy old repulicans.

Ok. I've said my peace on this thread I'm out. :D
You are being profoundly rude to a lovely, gracious, talented and successful woman. Extremely ungentlemanly.

You also have made up figures which have no basis in reality. If you want to continue to do all this, you must join the Democratic party.

When you become governor of a state, then we will see what your degree becomes worth.

[wondering]

Regarding the bolded statement, I don't believe Russia has any type of shared ideology w/ Iran, but rather sees control of energy (oil) as their ticket to increased wealth/power. Hence, their recent interest in staging military maneuvers off of Venezuela.



Below are my opinions and not intended to offend anyone, just my point of view.Im very scared for the future. My family for the last 30 odd years has had a succesful electrical contracting business. Now, when i say succesful I mean we do ok, but are by no means rich. This whole concept of taxing business over $200,000 or whatever it is now is insane. Contrary to what the President-elect says, 200,000 is not a large sum of money when you are running a business. Not when you have employees to pay, benefits to take care of, materials to pay for. If this isnt socialism/communism honestly what is? We need to remember that taxing companies more isnt going to help us, companies dont have to stay in the US. Big corporations help drive America, we need them to be a world player. We also need small business. Instead of handing out welfare checks we should be encouraging small business growth and more jobs for everyone. This will do nothing but bankrupt us.

In regard to Russia, this most certainly seems like Cold War 2 to me, but with far more global and deadly implications. Russia seems determined to regain its superpower status and is aligning themselves with countries like Iran. With the US military force weakened they understand that we are not in a position to argue, much like with Georgia. I dont know what the future holds, but I think we are at a scary point in time. Thank god im a religous man.

[wondering]

This doesn't make sense - globalization will continue, but eventually rather, hopefully, energy will be taken out of the equation. Perhaps this is what you meant.


When it comes to energy, YES

[Dr. John Crisler]

If you have learned anything at business school you will get T-shirts printed with this phrase.

If you recognize the irony you will realize that you can sell thousands to liberal arts majors.

:)
I guess I'm built too low.

[GirlyMan]

Hear at business school, we have a saying for communication majors. They are the slackers who couldn't pass statistics, so they can't go to business school. Instead they end up communication majors, which might as well be pottery making.


If you have learned anything at business school you will get T-shirts printed with this phrase.

If you recognize the irony you will realize that you can sell thousands to liberal arts majors.

:)

Hear, hear! As a reformed liberal arts major, that's friggin' hilarious. I'd buy one.

[brandO]

all i know is SAVE your money people; obama is going to be a landslide. a change for the worse! In fact hes going to do more damage then bush.

[BigAk]

Is it going to get any worse than it is now??

.

[JackBauer]

Regarding the bolded statement, I don't believe Russia has any type of shared ideology w/ Iran, but rather sees control of energy (oil) as their ticket to increased wealth/power. Hence, their recent interest in staging military maneuvers off of Venezuela.

I believe they do have a shared ideology in one area...

Challenging the dominance of the western powers.

[brandO]

BigAK, yes its going to be extremely bad. im posting this because i know im going to be right.

were gonna have a depression but far worse because of inflation,

obama is going to cause the dollar to collapse; the only way to survive this is by getting out of the us dollar.

[hardasnails1973]

yep and just like many president before us, lied his ass off to get your vote and then will not do jack crap..Next time every notice his relationship with his wife? They can not even hug each other, its more like a partnership then a marriage and this what you want to represent the US. If hes lying about his relationship with his wife what WTF else is he hiding. PEOPLE GET YOUR SHOVELS AND BOOTS WE ARE IN SOME REALLY DEEP SHNITS.

[BigAk]

yep and just like many president before us, lied his ass off to get your vote and then will not do jack crap..Next time every notice his relationship with his wife? They can not even hug each other, its more like a partnership then a marriage and this what you want to represent the US. If hes lying about his relationship with his wife what WTF else is he hiding. PEOPLE GET YOUR SHOVELS AND BOOTS WE ARE IN SOME REALLY DEEP SHNITS.

He's putting up an act with his wife???... Wow!!!.. We're in deep s**

.

[BigAk]

BigAK, yes its going to be extremely bad. im posting this because i know im going to be right.

were gonna have a depression but far worse because of inflation,

obama is going to cause the dollar to collapse; the only way to survive this is by getting out of the us dollar.

Yea... The economy is really worrying me brando... I knew we were heading down when they started moving our projects to Mexico and China since a year and half ago... They went out and hired an entire army of workers in these countries for fraction of the cost and made us train them. We just delivered our final product software, and everyone is on high alert as the company started laying off people including high ranking managers and VP's. Is that what I should be rewarded for working hard for them for over a decade?? I am praying it won't come down to that...

Not a good time at all ..... for sure..

.

[BigAk]

Will TRT still be affordable during depression when we're left jobless and with no health insurance???
:eek:

scary times for sure....

.

[joe143]

Luckily, TRT isnt too exspensive. Its the darn blood work that will kill ya! But, thats what insurance is for. If insurance goes bye bye, your guess is as good as mine. I plan on paying for the majority of my treatment out of pocket as I have no faith in insurance companies.

[brandO]

i been reading the book Crash Proof, peter schiff has predicted this stuff from 2002. he calls our economy "phony" and its going to burst.

this is really AMAZING: watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhJaVEWAG24 , in 2002 Schiff predicted the Credit Crunch and Mortgage Meltdown

[JackBauer]

Yea... The economy is really worrying me brando... I knew we were heading down when they started moving our projects to Mexico and China since a year and half ago... They went out and hired an entire army of workers in these countries for fraction of the cost and made us train them.

I work with a lot of engineers in India. Their rate is 1/3 that of someone in the US. On average, with quality issues, constant retention issues and training, productivity due to communication barriers, and general lower functional knowledge...

I'd be surprised if their rate is even on par with what an engineer in the US is.

(Now SOME - maybe 10-20% of them, those who do not "job-hob", end up being awesome... frickin' awesome, but those are few.)