Managing estrogen metabolism through nutrition

[hardasnails1973]

After searching the internet for along time. I foundly found an article that was well writen and backed with a very intricated diagram to help people understand estrogen metabolism and its correct pathways and what can affect it .


http://www.cabecahealth.com/PDF%20files/NutrInfluencesEstrogen.pdf

[MattMuscle]

After searching the internet for along time. I foundly found an article that was well writen and backed with a very intricated diagram to help people understand estrogen metabolism and its correct pathways and what can affect it .


http://www.cabecahealth.com/PDF%20files/NutrInfluencesEstrogen.pdf

I realise this article mainly talks about women HAN. I have always thought that soy products were not good for men, but as they are isoflavones it sounds like they are actually going to be beneficial to males through improved estrogen metabolism. Is this correct?

[hardasnails1973]

True but over all the diagram does an increidble job of showing the pathways which estrogen takes from start to finish. There are a few things in there that are debatable but i say atleast 90% is very accurate.

[Charlie]

Thanks Hard Guy.

[hardasnails1973]

Now to comprehend this thing is another story,
When a person does an estroessence test from genova or rheins they can look back for a refernce on to see where there pathways are blocked and how to correct the imbalance. If one can see how important SAM-E is essential for proper estrogen detoxifcatons not just in one phase but 2 phases.

[kanecore]

Doesn't TMG with co-factors do the job? What about Zinc/B6 along with TMG? I can't take DIM or Arimidex anymore because it makes me feel terrible and completely impotent. What would be the signs of poor estrogen methlyation or estrogen imbalance? Could it be elvated total Es but normal E2? What about extremely elevate DHT?

[hardasnails1973]

Instead of playing guessing games. I knew I was undermethyated for a long time and the estroessence test back it up very nicely. You can get your dr to order it from genova and just get the 2,16,4 hydroxyesteerones and 4 methyesterones. This will give you all information you need to determine proper method of treatment. If you are magnesium deficeint which 90% of americans actually are then you are lacking sam-e. By taking sam-e it goes around this problem which TMG can not do. TMG is like a saftey valve for sam-e. To get better analyisis look into amino acid urine testing this will show where the pathways in the liver are being wither directed CBS , Ms , BHMT pathwys. One can have elevated serum b-12, folate but have a functional defieincy. Trust me i have prooved all this time and time again :)

[kanecore]

Ok...so before you get these tests, what are some of the symptoms of under-methylation? Is there physical manifestations such as prostate or gastrointestinal issues or possibly neurological issues such as anxiety or depression?

[hardasnails1973]

http://www.enzymestuff.com/methylation.htm

http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/walshMP.htm

Correcting methyation is one of the most important things that needs to be done to maintain proper health

[kanecore]

Thanks! That was a great read! Since I have more issues associated with over-methylation and mercury toxicity, I might want to stop taking Jarrow Formulas' Homocysteine PF (B6/B12/Folic Acid/TMG) and start on a Selenium and Liver Formula; plus get my histidine checked! Do you have any suggestions?

[hardasnails1973]

Check pyrrols, and also urine histamines. If you are pissing them out like crazy you either have some kind of allergic reactions, inlfammation, or can not break them down. Excessive histamines or estrogen clogg up the methyation pathways and conjugation pathways (glycine, taurine) in the liver. the liver uses glucoidation for a back up system when others are taxed.
It is not uncommon for people to flip flop back and forth between under and over methyation. So proper diagnosising techiques are essential. I have been through the mercury and heavy metal detoxifaction and know it like the back of my hand. As I emphasis time and time again look to autism, cancer, Ms as basis for 80% of all diseases as well as dna polymorphism. DNa polymorphism will be big in about 10-15 years when medical community gets off their asses and realizes it LOL

http://www.healthanddna.com/science.html

[JanSz]

Now to comprehend this thing is another story,
When a person does an estroessence test from genova or rheins they can look back for a refernce on to see where there pathways are blocked and how to correct the imbalance. If one can see how important SAM-E is essential for proper estrogen detoxifcatons not just in one phase but 2 phases.

HAN;
The chart that you have generously shared is very good, thank you.
I am still looking at it.

How the pathways work, and how to figure out what works and what needs to be supported is explained by Patrick Hanaway MD, head researcher at Genova in his two videos (below), they are about one year old, so the news is rather current.

If there is similar work available from RheiLabs or others, please let me know.

-----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.prolibraries.com
-----------------------
NutrEval discussed
EW04 - NUTRITIONAL EVALUATION: Understanding Your Patient's Supplement Needs
http://www.prolibraries.com/a4m/?select=session&sessionID=565
A4M :: Conference Library
Conference: A4M Las Vegas 2006
Speaker: Patrick Hanaway, MD
December 7, 2006 6:00 pm - 9:00 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Estroessence discussed:

GS02m - Estrogen Metabolism: Modifying Risk in Clinical Practice
Conference: A4M Orlando 2006
Speaker: Patrick Hanaway MD
Length: 31m 07s - 66 Slides
April 9, 2006 5:00 pm - 5:40 pm
--------------------------------------------------

[kanecore]

Dr. John often indicates that he does not want his guys touching soy products or isoflavones. I have read that they compete for estrogen receptors thereby blocking attachment. So why is soy a no-no?

[kanecore]

Dr. John often indicates that he does not want his guys touching soy products or isoflavones. But I have read that they compete for estrogen receptors thereby blocking attachment. So why is soy not a part of a supplement regimine consisting of TMG, DIM and possibly resveratrol? What are the adverse effects?

[hardasnails1973]

Alone from possible estrogen imbalances it can also alter thyroid dyfunctoin because of its goitergenic properties. Give theat majority of people are iodine defiecint it only be adding fuel to the fire so to speak. Soy protein in trace amounts is not going to hurt you, but when you have pateince chowing down on Balance Bars going out of style then you got some issues possible stirring up. Dr shippen also advocates in his book soy products as well that compete for estrogen receptors. Again different strokes for different folks. And I agree with Dr john with the idea of why have it in the first palce nd put your self in to possible dangerous situation.

[Wise Guy]

Dr. John often indicates that he does not want his guys touching soy products or isoflavones. I have read that they compete for estrogen receptors thereby blocking attachment. So why is soy a no-no?

There is conflicting information on this.

LEF especially is coming out with new information that shows that Soy Isoflavones do not convert nor mimic estrogen in the body as recently believed.

They think Soy is possibly a SERM

I still wouldn't dump it down my throat. Use caution

[Wise Guy]

Good stuff from LEF about I3C and Cancer/Estrogen

There are certain fruits, vegetables and plant extracts that have been shown to protect against breast, prostate, and other cancers.

Scientists have identified compounds in cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, kale) that specifically neutralize dangerous breakdown products of estrogen that promote cancer growth.

Cruciferous vegetable compounds also help neutralize the many carcinogens we are inevitably exposed to each day.

One of best studied cruciferous vegetable compounds is called indole-3-carbinol, or I3C for short.

Women seeking to restore youthful hormone balance should make sure to obtain enough I3C from their diet or by taking standardized supplements.

The reason for this is that I3C increases levels of a cancer- protective estrogen metabolite (2-hydroxyestrone, or 2-OHE1), while suppressing a dangerous estrogen metabolite (16 alpha-hydroxyestrone, or 16-OHE1) that promotes breast and other cancers.

To emphasize the critical importance of I3C (and its related compounds), please understand that aging women still produce estrogen, and that the estrogen they supplement with can follow two primary metabolic pathways in the body.

If we convert estrogen to 16 alphahydroxyestrone, then we increase the risk of breast and other cancers.

If on the other hand, we convert estrogen to 2-hydroxyestrone, then we decrease our risk for breast and other cancers.40-42 I3C can readily be obtained by eating lots of cruciferous vegetables and/or taking the proper amount in supplement form.

To confirm the theory that certain estrogen metabolites can contribute to cancer, researchers analyzed data gathered from over 10,000 Italian women over more than five years. The objective was to determine how dietary and hormonal factors influence breast cancer risk.

They found that women were much less likely to develop breast cancer when they had higher levels of 2-hydroxyestrone.40 This same finding has been shown in additional studies of different populations.

The toxic estrogen metabolite 16 alpha-hydroxyestrone acts as a breast tumor promoter.45 By contrast, estrogen metabolized via the 2-hydroxyestrone pathway does not exhibit estrogenic activity in breast tissue. 45 Additionally, a form of this less active estrogen metabolite is believed to prevent the formation of blood vessels necessary to feed growing cancers, thus helping to arrest tumor growth.

This delicate balance of estrogens is crucially important for men’s health as well. In a study that examined the ratio of estrogen metabolites relative to prostate cancer risk, elevated levels of 16 alpha-hydroxyestrone were linked with an increased risk of prostate cancer.

Fortunately, the cruciferous vegetable compounds (such as I3C) are effective in shifting estrogen metabolism to the more beneficial pathway, thus reducing levels of toxic 16 alphahydroxyestrone and increasing levels of protective 2-hydroxyestrone.

This beneficial modulation of estrogen with reduced risk of breast and other cancers, including cervical, prostate, and even head and neck cancers

Cruciferous vegetable compounds thus play an important role in fighting cancer.

[hardasnails1973]

Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing :D

[pmgamer18]

I also mod at the H2 group and had a guy post to us that he lost his libido and is very fatigued the only test he could get was TT he is in the Bahamas and can't evern get treatment for this. I asked him a few questions about his workout program and diet. He told me he was a nut for health and eats the best diet you can. He went on to say how bad his sex life is and that he was just married a yr. ago. He also said he does not even drink milk he drinks SOY MILK.

I told him this is why his testosterone levels are low and he lost his sex life. He stoped the SOY MILK and and posted back to me thanking me for the help everything is back to normal.

Turns out SOY acts like E's and fills your cells your brain can't tell the difference and thinks it's testosterone and stops sending the LH and FSH to the testis to make Testosterone. Yet the E marker from SOY does nothing good for men.

[kanecore]

Wise Guy, is IC3 a better bet than DIM? LE's Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Cat's Claw seems like a pretty comprehensive product. http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00968.html

Everyone is having issues with DIM, including myself. Since DIM is a component of IC3, maybe it's utilized on different pathways??? What does everyone think?

[Wise Guy]

Wise Guy, is IC3 a better bet than DIM? LE's Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Cat's Claw seems like a pretty comprehensive product. http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00968.html

Everyone is having issues with DIM, including myself. Since DIM is a component of IC3, maybe it's utilized on different pathways??? What does everyone think?

Here is the thing - I3C and DIM are similar in that DIM converts to I3C in the stomach anyways.

They both work via similar mechanisms.

That product should cover all bases.

What issues are you having with DIM? Its a relatively benign product. It simply controls the flow of byproducts of estrone.

It also has anti cancer properties.

[JanSz]

Wise Guy, is IC3 a better bet than DIM? LE's Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Cat's Claw seems like a pretty comprehensive product. http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00968.html

Everyone is having issues with DIM, including myself. Since DIM is a component of IC3, maybe it's utilized on different pathways??? What does everyone think?

LEF recently added
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00999.html
Breast Health Formula
60 vegetarian capsules
Item Catalog Number: 999

I am not sure which one to take,
so I take two pills of each.

Either pills contain small amount of DIM and a lot of I3C.

Genova recently supports a list as shown on one of the slides.
See attachment.

flaxseed (it is not about omega-3, it is about ligams)
omega-3
soy isoflavones
I3C
DIM
rosemary, turmaric, kudzu
strenous exercise
weight loss (my guess it is about loosing fat)

[T800]

Earlier this year, I started using soy milk instead of cow's milk in my protein shakes (usually 2 per day, 8-12 oz of soy milk per shake).

Lemme tell ya...in short order, I felt like poop. My skin got all rashy, too. I stopped the soy milk and the symptoms went away.

I won't be touching that stuff again any time soon!

Sonny

[JanSz]

Earlier this year, I started using soy milk instead of cow's milk in my protein shakes (usually 2 per day, 8-12 oz of soy milk per shake).

Lemme tell ya...in short order, I felt like poop. My skin got all rashy, too. I stopped the soy milk and the symptoms went away.

I won't be touching that stuff again any time soon!

Sonny

I eat one/day of

Super-Absorbable Soy Isoflavones
60 capsules
Item Catalog Number: 758

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00758.html

[hardasnails1973]

http://www.gaiagarden.com/pdf/breastcancer.pdf

[pmgamer18]

Look at it this way SOY acts like Estrogen but does nothing so it fills your cells and it's the same cells your testosterone uses do the math.

[hardasnails1973]

Look at it this way SOY acts like Estrogen but does nothing so it fills your cells and it's the same cells your testosterone uses do the math.

But reservatrol DOES acts as an estrogen agonist or antagonist at receptor site

[4aminsomniac]

What exact types of soy are we talking about? I happen to eat many protein bars that primary have Whey protein, but will almost always have Soy Protein Isolate.

So is this good or bad? It's not the primary protein in the mix, but still exist. Or maybe to be safe, just cut it all out is probably best correct?

Might explain my problems, I chow down on bars all day, and they all include Soy Protein Isolate in some form or Soy Lecithin.

Input appreciated.

[researchin]

What exact types of soy are we talking about? I happen to eat many protein bars that primary have Whey protein, but will almost always have Soy Protein Isolate.

So is this good or bad? It's not the primary protein in the mix, but still exist. Or maybe to be safe, just cut it all out is probably best correct?

Might explain my problems, I chow down on bars all day, and they all include Soy Protein Isolate in some form or Soy Lecithin.

Input appreciated.

dude, bad. I was doing buckets of soy protein, equivalent to what you're getting out of a bar, before I went severely hypothyroid. I'm unsure if it's related, but it's too much of a coincidence given other stories and the research done it.

Lecithin is thought to be good, but another risk.

[Dwight Hooper]

I'll add my tiny point on the topic of soy lecithin.
There are two forms of lecithin one is the granular
form people get at the health food store and then
there is a crude form that is just a fraction from
soy oil processing and I think is used in
baking. As as a consumer product, I haven't seen it
in decades. Back in the day, I used this latter form as
lecithin supplement. Anyway I'll bet that form
has lots of isoflavones.

Anyway the point is that bread and some baked goods
likely would a source of this form of soy product and
thus be isoflavone "enriched."