Topical Test... what and why?

[Dadnatron]

For those of you who USE a TOPICAL testosterone replacement product...

What do you use?

HOW MUCH do you use?

Where do you apply it?

And most importantly

WHY do you use what you use and apply it where you do?

[JanSz]

For those of you who USE a TOPICAL testosterone replacement product...

What do you use?

HOW MUCH do you use?

Where do you apply it?

And most importantly

WHY do you use what you use and apply it where you do?

For couple years I was using Androgel, 10grams/day=100mg/day testosterone.
It is a lots of gel.
I applied it thruought my upper body.
That was only form of testosterone available to me at the time.
I was able to try 5, 10, 15 grams daily, 10 worked as it should.
GP who was giving me Androgel scripts allowed all tests that I would ask for.
He did not wished to learn TRT and told me so.
After I learned about my sky high DHT
I relented to my prostate doc and decided to take Proscar and latter Avodart.

It all worked good, I had rather good TRT number overall.

When I joined AM board I heard discussions about how good are high density T-creams.

I also found new doc who would write me a script if I want any experimentation.
I asked for 10% T-cream.
Wasted 6 months.
I was not absorbing T-cream.

I think anybody who does not have access to T-cream/gel product specified by dr John should stay away from any random compounded products.

Next I asked for Depo-Testosterone.
I was able to figure out my current dose after second iteration.
For me, TotalTestosterone levels are (almost) rock steady and very predictably depend on my avarage weekly dose.
I assume that that is due to my EOD dosing.

//
At the beginning I was wasting lots of Androgel.
It was slipping thru my fingers.
There was a week or so time when I had no carpet in my bathroom and the floor was not cleaned.
That is when I noted many dried drips of Androgel.
Previously they would got into carpet without being seen.
All this wasting stopped after I divided 5grams of gel into 5 or more portions.

[cumkwakka]

For those of you who USE a TOPICAL testosterone replacement product...

What do you use?

HOW MUCH do you use?

Where do you apply it?

And most importantly

WHY do you use what you use and apply it where you do?

I use 3 grams of a compounded T-gel, 2 grams morning, afternoon 1 gram.

I apply on the shoulders, biceps, chest.

I use it because i am medium low on testosterone and was hoping this would increase my testosterone levels for conquering ED. So far it has not helped one bit, since everything is going to DHT. I apply on doctor's instructions. I tried it on my face, my feet and even my nuts but no benefits. I have asked if i can switch to injections.

[Drew]

Comments are in bold below:


For those of you who USE a TOPICAL testosterone replacement product...

What do you use?

I use a 10% compounded product in a PLO base.

HOW MUCH do you use?

I use .6ml/day

Where do you apply it?

Upper shoulder area. I have a young daughter and try to use an area I can cover.

And most importantly

WHY do you use what you use and apply it where you do?
Ease of use and results. I absorb extremely well.

[pmgamer18]

Like JanSz it drove up my DHT levels to 4x's over the top of the range and my prostate was going nuts. One infection after the other. All the time I was on gels I had bad joint and muscle pain turns out for me using gels the T going through the skin dose not support my joints and muscles and in time I was in so much pain I was house bound until we figured out it was the gel. Going on shots and adding HCG did the job no more pain up about about not a problem.

I did find out if you have a thyroid problem your skin can get thicker and gels and creams can't get through.

Today I do shots every 3 days 80mgs of Test C and I do 250 IU's of HCG the day before my next shot.

For couple years I was using Androgel, 10grams/day=100mg/day testosterone.
It is a lots of gel.
I applied it thruought my upper body.
That was only form of testosterone available to me at the time.
I was able to try 5, 10, 15 grams daily, 10 worked as it should.
GP who was giving me Androgel scripts allowed all tests that I would ask for.
He did not wished to learn TRT and told me so.
After I learned about my sky high DHT
I relented to my prostate doc and decided to take Proscar and latter Avodart.

It all worked good, I had rather good TRT number overall.

When I joined AM board I heard discussions about how good are high density T-creams.

I also found new doc who would write me a script if I want any experimentation.
I asked for 10% T-cream.
Wasted 6 months.
I was not absorbing T-cream.

I think anybody who does not have access to T-cream/gel product specified by dr John should stay away from any random compounded products.

Next I asked for Depo-Testosterone.
I was able to figure out my current dose after second iteration.
For me, TotalTestosterone levels are (almost) rock steady and very predictably depend on my avarage weekly dose.
I assume that that is due to my EOD dosing.

//
At the beginning I was wasting lots of Androgel.
It was slipping thru my fingers.
There was a week or so time when I had no carpet in my bathroom and the floor was not cleaned.
That is when I noted many dried drips of Androgel.
Previously they would got into carpet without being seen.
All this wasting stopped after I divided 5grams of gel into 5 or more portions.

[dot1]

I started on Testim for about six months then switched to Androgel for the last 2 1/2 years. I am on three pumps in the morning. I was applying to my chest and stomach but recently read Dr. J's article on how to apply. I now just apply to chest and shoulders. :cheers2:

[JanSz]

Today I do shots every 3 days 80mgs of Test C and I do 250 IU's of HCG the day before my next shot.

I remember you were doing 400iu-HCG on both days between T-shots.
I remember that after GH your E2 was going nuts, so you were reducing HCG.

But now I see that you went from 2x400=800iu
to
250iu

Big move.
Lets hope that it will help with E2 and is enough to keep your nuts in size.

250*7/3=583iu/week
400*7/3*2=1867iu/week


..

[GirlyMan]

For those of you who USE a TOPICAL testosterone replacement product...

What do you use?
Androgel.

HOW MUCH do you use?
6-8 pumps (7.5-10g)/day.

Where do you apply it?

Neck, clavicle, face (cheeks), traps, delts, guns, armpits, flank/lats, forearms, and occasionally scrotum (every 2-3 days 1 pump), and big fat belly (once a week or so, 2 pumps).


And most importantly

WHY do you use what you use and apply it where you do?

WHY is 'cause my insurance does not cover injectable test and my PCP who adminsters my TRT is comfortable with Androgel.

WHERE is 'cause I'm not a good absorber and even with all my creative application efforts (thanks to Jan, Phil, chillin' and others on the forums) I still only live at 475ng/dl in the trough 24 hours post-application (214ng/dl at time of diagnosis and treatment initiation). But all of my symptoms are gone, so I don't give a shit and plan to keep riding this particular pony until it gives out.

[Tuberous]

Testim, 1 tube (for now). hasn't given me that much of a boost, by the numbers, but life is definitely better. Haven't bumped up the dose, because we're still tweaking thyroid, and don't want to change too many variables at once...although, I think we're probably "there" w/ thyroid, according to my recent numbers. I didn't see the T numbers, though. will find out next week.

Testim goes on the shoulders and delts, as per the book. Is there another way?

I read a study that showed that people who don't absorb androgel well might do better w/ testim; however, the opposite doesn't apply. (people who don't absorb testim well, will not likely do any better w/ androgel). Apparently, there is some ingredient in the Testim that helps w/ absorption...and that is why it has a scent.

I don't relish the thought of doubling the amount of sticky goo...for that reason alone.

[Dadnatron]

For you guys using Testim and Adrogel...

Why, if the amount of gel is a problem, don't you use the compounded products with a higher %?

I understand if it is insurance.

But it would seem that if an option, a smaller amount of a higher dose product would be overall better than a larger amount of a very small dose product.

I understand for those who are looking to up DHT... but for me, if I were to go this route, I think I would be looking to minimize a DHT rise... receeding hairline and all.

[JanSz]

For you guys using Testim and Adrogel...

Why, if the amount of gel is a problem, don't you use the compounded products with a higher %?

I understand if it is insurance.

But it would seem that if an option, a smaller amount of a higher dose product would be overall better than a larger amount of a very small dose product.

I understand for those who are looking to up DHT... but for me, if I were to go this route, I think I would be looking to minimize a DHT rise... receeding hairline and all.

I used Androgel, it worked.
I used 10% compounded T-cream, it did not worked.

...................
My conclussion,
poor quality, variable from one pharmacy to another.

The only one that work for sure is the one that is recomended by dr John.

[JRA]

I used Androgel, it worked.
I used 10% compounded T-cream, it did not worked.

...................
My conclussion,
poor quality, variable from one pharmacy to another.

The only one that work for sure is the one that is recomended by dr John.

I agree.

My problem with the compounded T is it may vary one batch to the next from the same compounding pharmacy.
I called the pharmacy about this problem and got a BS run around about their strict quality controls.
I think I will ask my Doc to switch me to Androgel, and see if I notice a difference.

[JanSz]

I agree.

My problem with the compounded T is it may vary one batch to the next from the same compounding pharmacy.
I called the pharmacy about this problem and got a BS run around about their strict quality controls.
I think I will ask my Doc to switch me to Androgel, and see if I notice a difference.

Transdermal testosterone raises DHT.
It is (somewhat) proportional to used skin area.
High DHT is newer good thing, regardless of some claims to the contrary.

To minimize skin area required to apply T-cream, high density creams are developed.

Big Pharma have advantage, they can employ high class of Quality Control, and deliver product of uniform quality.

1000's of compounding pharmacies have no chance in this game,
unless particularly motivated.
So there is one pharmacy supervised by dr John and possibly one more somewhere else.

Someone who uses anything other than Androgel or Testogel should think twice before he wastes his time.

...

[bigv]

I use 10g of Androgel per day; in the past I have used Testim as well, I slightly prefer the Androgel for ease of use (the Testim comes in foil tubes which are hard to squeeze empty), but the Testim gives a stronger effect in my experience.

I was applying the gel to my arms and shoulders but I found this quite messy; I switched to the back of my calves which was better, but still gel ended up on the floor!. However recently I have started squeezing out each 5g pack on to each thigh and rubbing it in well...................................I have had a big reduction in joint pain and muscle ache since using the thighs as the application site, and I am now actually starting to see some strength gains in the gym after years of trying. - Now this could just be coincidence because I recently discovered I was anemic and started taking Iron tablets at about the same time!

Generally I absorb the gels very well indeed - Levels are usually in the top end of range and have even been over the top of normal range when using Testim. Libido and energy levels are good and I often wake up briefly during the night and notice I have wood, although I have not noticed this in the mornings??

Downsides are continuing acne cysts on my back and spots on my face despite using treatment creams; I was on long term antibiotics for this as well but they never seemed to make any difference. I'm nearly 24, this acne should have settled by now surely? - I was spot free until about aged 16 when I picked up some kind of nasty skin infection with multiple boils/carbuncles and I have had bad skin ever since then really. My GP is managing this and I am reluctant to ask to see a specialist dermatologist because I am uncertain about the risks & benefits of trying stronger treatments.



I also worry about DHT as I have a high sex drive on gels and I wonder if this could be due to DHT, could I be in for prostate problems later in life?

Never had DHT tested though and my PSA was 0.3 (0.1 - 4.0) last time around.

[Dadnatron]

What is the physical 'difference' between Testim, Androgel, and the AnewRx compoundeds?

I am considering supplementing, given that my thyroid levels have improved, however, my testosterone is still in the lower 1/3 range.

I have seen an Anti-aging physician who said Testim is what he recommends because in his experience, it absorbs better. However, then he went on later to say that the 'drug company' said he is the biggest prescriber of 'testosterone cream' in the area. Which makes me wonder whether he prescribes it because it works well, or because that is just what he typically does.

I am VERY hesitant about DHT levels... My hair is alread running to the back of my head, and this is the ONLY reason I am worried about it however. My DHT has been running 47 for a while, which is midline. My BioT/Tot T has been lower range or even BELOW low range.

So my goal, is to increase T to the upper limits of normal and keep my hair. All while minimizing 'the mess' of topicals, but while keeping as close to 'normal' hormonal rhythm ie changes throughout the day, as possible.

.........................................

9/15/2009 11/3/2009 12/10/2009 1/13/2010 2/27/2010

DHEA-s 190 -- 166 164 -- (44 - 345)

Estradiol 2 (US) 22 46 26 16 33 (<29)



IGF-1 188 202 258 212 167 (86 - 220)
IGFBP-3 3.5 4.1 4.4 3.8 3.2 (3.3 - 6.7)



SHBG -- -- 24 29 23 (7 - 50)

Testosterone - Total 557 495 329 353 379 (250 - 1100)
Testosterone - Free 94.1 82.2 52.3 43.1 63.2 (35 - 155)
Test - Bioavailable ---- 107.6 98 130 (110 - 575)

DHT 44 52 52 47 47 (25 - 75)

TSH -- -- 5.4 8.07 4.18 (0.4 - 4.5)
F-T3 -- -- 332 344 323 (230 - 420)
F-T4 -- -- 1 1.1 (0.8 - 1.8)

FSH -- -- 4.9 5 -- (1.6 - 8.0)
LH -- -- 6.8 4.2 -- (1.5 - 9.3)
Prolactin -- -- -- 9.6 -- (2.1 - 17.7)

I took original labs immediately before beginning Secretropin. As you can see, my IGF-1 certainly increased, however everything else plummeted. Whether this was due to coincidental hypothyroidism, or whether the Secretropin had undue effects on my thyroid as well as diminished Testosterone... I don't know. But I do know that everything has been out of whack since September. Unfortunately, the ONE THING I didn't check were baseline thyroid labs.

[JanSz]

what is the physical 'difference' between testim, androgel, and the anewrx compoundeds?

I am considering supplementing, given that my thyroid levels have improved, however, my testosterone is still in the lower 1/3 range.

I have seen an anti-aging physician who said testim is what he recommends because in his experience, it absorbs better. However, then he went on later to say that the 'drug company' said he is the biggest prescriber of 'testosterone cream' in the area. Which makes me wonder whether he prescribes it because it works well, or because that is just what he typically does.

I am very hesitant about dht levels... My hair is alread running to the back of my head, and this is the only reason i am worried about it however. My dht has been running 47 for a while, which is midline. My biot/tot t has been lower range or even below low range.

So my goal, is to increase t to the upper limits of normal and keep my hair. All while minimizing 'the mess' of topicals, but while keeping as close to 'normal' hormonal rhythm ie changes throughout the day, as possible.

.........................................

9/15/2009 11/3/2009 12/10/2009 1/13/2010 2/27/2010

dhea-s 190 -- 166 164 -- (44 - 345)

estradiol 2 (us) 22 46 26 16 33 (<29)



igf-1 188 202 258 212 167 (86 - 220)
igfbp-3 3.5 4.1 4.4 3.8 3.2 (3.3 - 6.7)



shbg -- -- 24 29 23 (7 - 50)

testosterone - total 557 495 329 353 379 (250 - 1100)
testosterone - free 94.1 82.2 52.3 43.1 63.2 (35 - 155)
test - bioavailable ---- 107.6 98 130 (110 - 575)

dht 44 52 52 47 47 (25 - 75)

tsh -- -- 5.4 8.07 4.18 (0.4 - 4.5)
f-t3 -- -- 332 344 323 (230 - 420)
f-t4 -- -- 1 1.1 (0.8 - 1.8)

fsh -- -- 4.9 5 -- (1.6 - 8.0)
lh -- -- 6.8 4.2 -- (1.5 - 9.3)
prolactin -- -- -- 9.6 -- (2.1 - 17.7)

i took original labs immediately before beginning secretropin. As you can see, my igf-1 certainly increased, however everything else plummeted. Whether this was due to coincidental hypothyroidism, or whether the secretropin had undue effects on my thyroid as well as diminished testosterone... I don't know. But i do know that everything has been out of whack since september. Unfortunately, the one thing i didn't check were baseline thyroid labs.


dht 44 52 52 47 47 (25 - 75)
shbg -- -- 24 29 23 (7 - 50)
test - bioavailable ---- 107.6 98 130 (110 - 575)

tsh -- -- 5.4 8.07 4.18 (0.4 - 4.5)

================================================== ==
You should not use transdermal testosterone
In TRT aim at BAT~575
I have seen dr Gordon going higher than that.

Use Test cypionate 200mg/mL
Use HCG purchased in small vials (HUCOG-2000iu or similar)
or Ovidrel

First approximation
T-shot=40mg=20units=140mg/week
HCG-shot=250iu

retest in 2-3 months (Quest)

40 --------- Progesterone, LC/MS/MS 17183X
41 --------- Pregnenolone, LC/MS/MS (31493X) 28373P
42 --------- Androstenedione, LC/MS/MS - (17182X)
43 --------- Estradiol [4021X](13- 54 pg/mL)
44 --------- Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
45 --------- Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS) Code: 14966X
46 --------- Dihydrotestosterone
47 --------- 3a-Androstanediol Glucuronide

========================================

Your thyroid needs attention, adrenals before thyroid.
You already know that you will supplement with thyroid hormones,
but first you have to make your self ready to receive them.

Get these tests:
Spectracell-5000
including all available micronutrients and lipids
and
all reports

Fatty Acid Analysis from Genova

24hr urine from RheinLabs.com

from Quest

1 --------- Comprehensive Metabolic Panel w/EGFR
2 --------- CBC w/ diff/PLT
3 --------- VAP TM Cholesterol Test (10270X)

8 --------- C-Reactive Protein (CRP), Highly Sensitive, CSF - (17401X)
9 --------- Fibrinogen
10 --------- Homocysteine, cardio
11 --------- Lipoprotein (A) Lp(A)
12 --------- Iron and Iron Binding Capacity (7573X) - (356N)
13 --------- Iron, Total (571X) - (24984P)
14 --------- Ferritin (457X) - (22764P)
15 --------- Transferrin (891X) - (30346P)
16 --------- Folate, RBC & Hematocrit - (1768N)
17 --------- Hemoglobin A1c (496X) - (45484P)
18 --------- Hemoglobin, Plasma (514X) - (7211P)

21 --------- T3, Total (859X)
22 --------- T4, Total (Thyroxine)
23 --------- T3, Free
24 --------- T4,Free
25 --------- T3, Reverse (967X)
26 --------- Ultrasensitive TSH
27 --------- Thyroid Peroxidase and Thyroglobulin Antibodies (7260X)
28 --------- Thyroglobulin
29 --------- Thyroxine-binding globulin
30 --------- Insulin, serum
31 --------- IGF Binding protein-3
32 --------- IGF-1
33 --------- DHEA Sulfate 402X
34 --------- Aldosterone
35 --------- Renin Activity, Plasma
36 --------- ACTH, Plasma
37 --------- Cortisol Binding Globulin (Transcortin) (37371X)
38 --------- 8AM/4PM/10PM---Cortisol, Free and Total, LC/MS/MS (37077X)
--------------- iodine

///////////

[Dadnatron]

dht 44 52 52 47 47 (25 - 75)
shbg -- -- 24 29 23 (7 - 50)
test - bioavailable ---- 107.6 98 130 (110 - 575)

tsh -- -- 5.4 8.07 4.18 (0.4 - 4.5)

================================================== ==
You should not use transdermal testosterone
Use Test cypionate 200mg/mL
Use HCG purchased in small vials (HUCOG-2000iu or similar)
or Ovidrel

First approximation
T-shot=40mg=20units=140mg/week
HCG-shot=250iu

retest in 2-3 months (Quest)

40 --------- Progesterone, LC/MS/MS 17183X
41 --------- Pregnenolone, LC/MS/MS (31493X) 28373P
42 --------- Androstenedione, LC/MS/MS - (17182X)
43 --------- Estradiol [4021X](13- 54 pg/mL)
44 --------- Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
45 --------- Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS) Code: 14966X
46 --------- Dihydrotestosterone
47 --------- 3a-Androstanediol Glucuronide

========================================

Your thyroid needs attention, adrenals before thyroid.
You already know that you will supplement with thyroid hormones,
but first you have to make your self ready to receive them.

Get these tests:
Spectracell-5000
including all available micronutrients and lipids
and
all reports

Fatty Acid Analysis from Genova

24hr urine from RheinLabs.com

from Quest

1 --------- Comprehensive Metabolic Panel w/EGFR
2 --------- CBC w/ diff/PLT
3 --------- VAP TM Cholesterol Test (10270X)

8 --------- C-Reactive Protein (CRP), Highly Sensitive, CSF - (17401X)
9 --------- Fibrinogen
10 --------- Homocysteine, cardio
11 --------- Lipoprotein (A) Lp(A)
12 --------- Iron and Iron Binding Capacity (7573X) - (356N)
13 --------- Iron, Total (571X) - (24984P)
14 --------- Ferritin (457X) - (22764P)
15 --------- Transferrin (891X) - (30346P)
16 --------- Folate, RBC & Hematocrit - (1768N)
17 --------- Hemoglobin A1c (496X) - (45484P)
18 --------- Hemoglobin, Plasma (514X) - (7211P)

21 --------- T3, Total (859X)
22 --------- T4, Total (Thyroxine)
23 --------- T3, Free
24 --------- T4,Free
25 --------- T3, Reverse (967X)
26 --------- Ultrasensitive TSH
27 --------- Thyroid Peroxidase and Thyroglobulin Antibodies (7260X)
28 --------- Thyroglobulin
29 --------- Thyroxine-binding globulin
30 --------- Insulin, serum
31 --------- IGF Binding protein-3
32 --------- IGF-1
33 --------- DHEA Sulfate 402X
34 --------- Aldosterone
35 --------- Renin Activity, Plasma
36 --------- ACTH, Plasma
37 --------- Cortisol Binding Globulin (Transcortin) (37371X)
38 --------- 8AM/4PM/10PM---Cortisol, Free and Total, LC/MS/MS (37077X)
--------------- iodine

///////////

JanSz...

No offense... but do you read the post before you cut and paste?

[JanSz]

JanSz...

No offense... but do you read the post before you cut and paste?

There is many topics in your post that are worth addressing.
I have made my picks.
Others may post their opinions.

===============

[GirlyMan]

What is the physical 'difference' between Testim, Androgel, and the AnewRx compoundeds?

Testim leaves an odor which some people like but my wife hated. Androgel doesn't leave any odor. Testim took longer to dry and felt sticky even a few hours later. Androgel dries very fast (like less than minute) and never feels sticky. Testim appears to absorb better and give higher serum levels than the same dose of Androgel. I've never used any compounded cream.


I have seen an Anti-aging physician who said Testim is what he recommends because in his experience, it absorbs better. However, then he went on later to say that the 'drug company' said he is the biggest prescriber of 'testosterone cream' in the area. Which makes me wonder whether he prescribes it because it works well, or because that is just what he typically does.

Sounds like he might've just been using "testosterone cream" generically for both the Big Pharma gels and compounded creams.


I am VERY hesitant about DHT levels... My hair is alread running to the back of my head, and this is the ONLY reason I am worried about it however. ... So my goal, is to increase T to the upper limits of normal and keep my hair.

I've never experienced any hair loss in 2 years on Androgel. If anything it's even thicker and fuller. If you're not already using Rogaine, guess you could try running that with the testosterone prophylactically. I have been taking saw palmetto, nettle root, and pygeum as prostate prophylactics since starting treatment but I doubt they are powerful enough to be responsible for keeping my hair. EIC and a few others here seem to have done quite a bit of research on hair loss. They might have better ideas.