Self medication (via controlled substances)

[pcgizzmo]

Even though a life on HC is FAR better than a life with untreated AF, I do not believe that.

The secret is in removing the cause of the AF: chronic stress. What she is REALLY saying is people just cannot change their lifestyles sufficiently to treat Adrenal Insufficiency.

I have had numerous patients taper their HC down. This is proof of cure.


I would almost never disagree with you but I think I have to in this case. What you just said above "The secret is removing the cause of adrenal fatigue" This will never happen in 99.9% of the cases.

Adrenal fatigue doesn't just happen it's builds up over time. Chronic stress and unless you live on an island, that's not going away. Yes, you can learn coping techniques to reduce stress but really how effective are these and how apt are people to use them with enough consistency to make a difference?

Supporting adrenals with HC and then tapering off may make a difference but if if and unless we learn how to correct the problem as you say there is no cure. These same patients will be back for the same issue's later down the road.

Another thing that concerns me and this has nothing to do w/you Dr. John but it is on the subject is it's bothersome to see so many people jumping on the cortisone band wagon and self treating. Yes, adding HC is going to help you feel better. It helps me feel better even when I feel normal. It gives me a burst of energy but this doesn't mean I needed it. There are ton's of people on the internet treating Adrenal fatigue and who knows if they really need it and who knows if they will ever taper off.

Long term HC replacement IMO can be dangerous and have side effects even at physiological doses. Just because we can't perfectly mimic what our bodies would regulate with pills. Not to mention those that are self medicating are not being watched by a Dr. and society has a "if one is good two is better" mentality.

[chilln]

Another thing that concerns me and this has nothing to do w/you Dr. John but it is on the subject is it's bothersome to see so many people jumping on the cortisone band wagon and self treating.


Do you believe that our actions are encouraging others to self-treat ?

This is a big issue for me, so please answer carefully.

[karlgraham]

i do think that there is clear that no one of the "big" profiles on this forum encourage selfmedication. instead they encourage people to find the right proffesionals. but i do think that the information is possible to wrongly use for selfmedication. but in no way anyone could say, that if they choose to selfmedicate, it is beacuse of this forum. lets say you close this forum, would that keep the same people from selfmedication, not likely. they just use another source for example books or other forums. for me this is the king of all great forums beacuse i am a person who like facts and logic reasoning, for me the facts and logic reasoning works as support and encouragement to hang in and dont give up.

[pcgizzmo]

Do you believe that our actions are encouraging others to self-treat ?

This is a big issue for me, so please answer carefully.

I believe there are those that will come here looking for information. Not just here really but the Internet in general. The information is there and those that are in bad enough shape or have the where-with-all to self treat will use the information to do it.

I don't really call it encouraging though just through discussing it here. I will say that "sure" someone here could encourage another person to do something but that would be different then reading the discussions then trying it on their own free will.

In short I think that there are those that will try things they read here and those that won't. I would have never tried subq T if I had not read it here but no one encouraged me to try it.

[Dadoo]

I believe there are those that will come here looking for information. Not just here really but the Internet in general. The information is there and those that are in bad enough shape or have the where-with-all to self treat will use the information to do it.

I don't really call it encouraging though just through discussing it here. I will say that "sure" someone here could encourage another person to do something but that would be different then reading the discussions then trying it on their own free will.

In short I think that there are those that will try things they read here and those that won't. I would have never tried subq T if I had not read it here but no one encouraged me to try it.

Maybe a DISCLAIMER sticky could help destructive self medication ?

[joe143]

I would almost never disagree with you but I think I have to in this case. What you just said above "The secret is removing the cause of adrenal fatigue" This will never happen in 99.9% of the cases.

Adrenal fatigue doesn't just happen it's builds up over time. Chronic stress and unless you live on an island, that's not going away. Yes, you can learn coping techniques to reduce stress but really how effective are these and how apt are people to use them with enough consistency to make a difference?

Supporting adrenals with HC and then tapering off may make a difference but if if and unless we learn how to correct the problem as you say there is no cure. These same patients will be back for the same issue's later down the road.

Another thing that concerns me and this has nothing to do w/you Dr. John but it is on the subject is it's bothersome to see so many people jumping on the cortisone band wagon and self treating. Yes, adding HC is going to help you feel better. It helps me feel better even when I feel normal. It gives me a burst of energy but this doesn't mean I needed it. There are ton's of people on the internet treating Adrenal fatigue and who knows if they really need it and who knows if they will ever taper off.

Long term HC replacement IMO can be dangerous and have side effects even at physiological doses. Just because we can't perfectly mimic what our bodies would regulate with pills. Not to mention those that are self medicating are not being watched by a Dr. and society has a "if one is good two is better" mentality.

I would argue that point. There are a lot of stress factors that can be removed if someone is serious about it. I think that low testosterone itself can be a major issue for the adrenals. Tuning up hormones, getting a better diet, and exercise has done wonders for me.

You are right that there are some stress factors we cant change. We cant just get up and quit our job for an easier one. I do think though taking care of hormonal deficiencies and getting a better diet would remove a huge burden of stress on the body. Sleep helps too lol.

[pcgizzmo]

I would argue that point. There are a lot of stress factors that can be removed if someone is serious about it. I think that low testosterone itself can be a major issue for the adrenals. Tuning up hormones, getting a better diet, and exercise has done wonders for me.

You are right that there are some stress factors we cant change. We cant just get up and quit our job for an easier one. I do think though taking care of hormonal deficiencies and getting a better diet would remove a huge burden of stress on the body. Sleep helps too lol.


I just think unless you are willing to prop up a majority of your hormones w/replacement and make major lifestyle changes I just don't see how you can keep from being back in the same place later down the road. (if you ween yourself off the hormone replacement like HC and Thyroid)

We could argue this till the cow's come home though because I don't think were going to find a major study on this.

I am just not sure I'm ready to replace more than my testosterone. I'm thinking about thyroid because the Dr. said I have high reverse T3 but then come's adrenals and actually they come before the thyroid and I don't think I['m willing to replace T, Adrenals and Thyroid. I can never do as well as my body could even with the degree of malfunction I have now.

[joe143]

I just think unless you are willing to prop up a majority of your hormones w/replacement and make major lifestyle changes I just don't see how you can keep from being back in the same place later down the road. (if you ween yourself off the hormone replacement like HC and Thyroid)

We could argue this till the cow's come home though because I don't think were going to find a major study on this.

I am just not sure I'm ready to replace more than my testosterone. I'm thinking about thyroid because the Dr. said I have high reverse T3 but then come's adrenals and actually they come before the thyroid and I don't think I['m willing to replace T, Adrenals and Thyroid. I can never do as well as my body could even with the degree of malfunction I have now.

Fair enough. We each have our own points of view. I really think getting testosterone in line helps adrenal issues. Low T puts quite a bit of stress on the body. I can't help thinking correcting that will help.

[chilln]

I believe there are those that will come here looking for information. Not just here really but the Internet in general. The information is there and those that are in bad enough shape or have the where-with-all to self treat will use the information to do it.

I don't really call it encouraging though just through discussing it here. I will say that "sure" someone here could encourage another person to do something but that would be different then reading the discussions then trying it on their own free will.

In short I think that there are those that will try things they read here and those that won't. I would have never tried subq T if I had not read it here but no one encouraged me to try it.

I see. We're not encouraging them to self-treat, because they're already convinced they need to self-treat, and are only looking for the technology to achieve it.

And after some careful thought I'm not going to modify the way I present information to those who don't self medicate, just because some people wish to destructively self medicate.

.

[TryingToFix]

Without the detailed information on this board many people would not be helped to the degree they are currently at.

As a collective the information as presented will spread out and be better understood by patients, doctors and medical professionals so that results are increased and time is reduced.

The more ambiguous the description only increases the permutations for deviation from a working protocol.

The relatively few doctors who know this medicine inside and out can only do so much to get the word out. Like many things today it needs the people to help spread the word to encourage better outcomes.

[JRA]

Without the detailed information on this board many people would not be helped to the degree they are currently at.

As a collective the information as presented will spread out and be better understood by patients, doctors and medical professionals so that results are increased and time is reduced.

The more ambiguous the description only increases the permutations for deviation from a working protocol.

The relatively few doctors who know this medicine inside and out can only do so much to get the word out. Like many things today it needs the people to help spread the word to encourage better outcomes.

Amen Bro

[Dr. John Crisler]

I would almost never disagree with you but I think I have to in this case. What you just said above "The secret is removing the cause of adrenal fatigue" This will never happen in 99.9% of the cases.

Adrenal fatigue doesn't just happen it's builds up over time. Chronic stress and unless you live on an island, that's not going away. Yes, you can learn coping techniques to reduce stress but really how effective are these and how apt are people to use them with enough consistency to make a difference?

Supporting adrenals with HC and then tapering off may make a difference but if if and unless we learn how to correct the problem as you say there is no cure. These same patients will be back for the same issue's later down the road.

Another thing that concerns me and this has nothing to do w/you Dr. John but it is on the subject is it's bothersome to see so many people jumping on the cortisone band wagon and self treating. Yes, adding HC is going to help you feel better. It helps me feel better even when I feel normal. It gives me a burst of energy but this doesn't mean I needed it. There are ton's of people on the internet treating Adrenal fatigue and who knows if they really need it and who knows if they will ever taper off.

Long term HC replacement IMO can be dangerous and have side effects even at physiological doses. Just because we can't perfectly mimic what our bodies would regulate with pills. Not to mention those that are self medicating are not being watched by a Dr. and society has a "if one is good two is better" mentality.
IF one can remove stress. That is a VERY big IF--especially in this economy. How long does it take for a person to make such drastic changes? Obviously it is a long process. So I am not seeing any disagreement between us.

Your criticism of "treating" non-existent diseases is right on the money. So is self-medication.

For those who do not underastand real therapy for those who are positive for the disease process Adrenal Fatigue, prove the dangers of HC at physiologic dosages. Think about it: the ranges are completely normal. Therefore, IF it happened, EVERYONE would suffer dconsequences of normal levels. It really is that simple.

Show me how collapsing every day will allow one to succeed in life--or even have a life. Especially in this economy.

So, all those who were literally totally unable to function in life, then were completely turned around by safe, physiologic doses of HC, shouldn't have been? Which is the worse of the two?

Further, what then are the options? Shall we just leave them lying on the side of the road? Where is the humanity in that?

[Dr. John Crisler]

I think we are very careful about conducting ourselves in an ethical manner here. As fine as any forum anywhere.

If anyone ever finds an example where we are not, we will correct same immediately.

[bgnb]

i do think that there is clear that no one of the "big" profiles on this forum encourage selfmedication. instead they encourage people to find the right proffesionals. but i do think that the information is possible to wrongly use for selfmedication. but in no way anyone could say, that if they choose to selfmedicate, it is beacuse of this forum. lets say you close this forum, would that keep the same people from selfmedication, not likely. they just use another source for example books or other forums. for me this is the king of all great forums beacuse i am a person who like facts and logic reasoning, for me the facts and logic reasoning works as support and encouragement to hang in and dont give up.

well, how many people self-medicate because they don't have the right
information and therefore cannot also find the right professional
treatment?

I think that when people can find out what's wrong through proper
testing and diagnosis, then they are less likely to try anything to get
better ...

self-medication can come out of ignorance ... once you get educated,
there is less chance of trying something just because it has worked
for others and therefore might work for you.

[pcgizzmo]

IF one can remove stress. That is a VERY big IF--especially in this economy. How long does it take for a person to make such drastic changes? Obviously it is a long process. So I am not seeing any disagreement between us.

Your criticism of "treating" non-existent diseases is right on the money. So is self-medication.

For those who do not underastand real therapy for those who are positive for the disease process Adrenal Fatigue, prove the dangers of HC at physiologic dosages. Think about it: the ranges are completely normal. Therefore, IF it happened, EVERYONE would suffer dconsequences of normal levels. It really is that simple.

Show me how collapsing every day will allow one to succeed in life--or even have a life. Especially in this economy.

So, all those who were literally totally unable to function in life, then were completely turned around by safe, physiologic doses of HC, shouldn't have been? Which is the worse of the two?

Further, what then are the options? Shall we just leave them lying on the side of the road? Where is the humanity in that?

Thanks for the response and I'm glad to see that you agree we agree : ) I have uber respect for you and what you do day in and day out.

I'm going to give an example here at the risk of being wrong and if so I TOTALLY will say I was wrong and didn't have all the facts. Also what I am putting out here is nothing that hasn't been posted on a public forum already.

Our good friend Phil. When he had his surgery didn't he have major bone issues? Weren't they very fragile and brittle and this caused him lot's of trouble in the surgery/hospital? I've never heard Phil say he was on anything other then a normal supportive replacement dose of HC but what I believe was his wife in a post described brittle bone that is the hall mark of long term HC usage and side effects there of.

Now, again I don't know Phil's total health picture etc... and maybe he has other issues but I can only think that the HC over time could have caused this issue w/him.

Phil, don't crucify me here. If you say you had something else going on etc.. I will totally back off of what I'm saying and apologize if I'm wrong.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Thanks for the response and I'm glad to see that you agree we agree : ) I have uber respect for you and what you do day in and day out.

I'm going to give an example here at the risk of being wrong and if so I TOTALLY will say I was wrong and didn't have all the facts. Also what I am putting out here is nothing that hasn't been posted on a public forum already.

Our good friend Phil. When he had his surgery didn't he have major bone issues? Weren't they very fragile and brittle and this caused him lot's of trouble in the surgery/hospital? I've never heard Phil say he was on anything other then a normal supportive replacement dose of HC but what I believe was his wife in a post described brittle bone that is the hall mark of long term HC usage and side effects there of.

Now, again I don't know Phil's total health picture etc... and maybe he has other issues but I can only think that the HC over time could have caused this issue w/him.

Phil, don't crucify me here. If you say you had something else going on etc.. I will totally back off of what I'm saying and apologize if I'm wrong.

There is your answer.

We also would not base an indictment of a profoundly necessary medical therapy based upon a single case study.

Again, IF physiologic (normal) levels of glucocorticoid causes bone demineralization, then EVERYONE would have fragile bones. Just common sense.

[GirlyMan]

Do you believe that our actions are encouraging others to self-treat ?

This is a big issue for me, so please answer carefully.

You, in particular, are very careful to discourage self-medication. That said, my self-administration of DHEA in countries where it is not OTC would qualify as self-medication. So how can I be universally opposed to self-medication?

The issue is not whether or not people are going to self-medicate, they are. The issue is whether or not they have enough information to do it in a reasonably safe manner which won't result in irrevocable consequences.

For example, I'm currently researching whether HCG is actually a controlled substance in my locality or not. If not, I'll be tempted to self-administer on a trial basis. This forum has equipped me with the information necessary to do this reasonably safely. But this forum has also provided me with information which suggests questioning and second-guessing this temptation. Of course, what I do with any or all of this information is ultimately my call. This is both how it is and how it should be.

[JanSz]

You, in particular, are very careful to discourage self-medication. That said, my self-administration of DHEA in countries where it is not OTC would qualify as self-medication. So how can I be universally opposed to self-medication?

The issue is not whether or not people are going to self-medicate, they are. The issue is whether or not they have enough information to do it in a reasonably safe manner which won't result in irrevocable consequences.

For example, I'm currently researching whether HCG is actually a controlled substance in my locality or not. If not, I'll be tempted to self-administer on a trial basis. This forum has equipped me with the information necessary to do this reasonably safely. But this forum has also provided me with information which suggests questioning and second-guessing this temptation. Of course, what I do with any or all of this information is ultimately my call. This is both how it is and how it should be.

You may announce that you are using HCG to loose weight.

...

[GirlyMan]

You may announce that you are using HCG to loose weight.

...

Excellent suggestion, Jan! I should point out that my only interest in HCG is to help lose all of this excess fat contributing to my insulin resistance and is no way way related to reinflating my little, tiny raisin balls which my wife finds so cute.

[JanSz]

Excellent suggestion, Jan! I should point out that my only interest in HCG is to help lose all of this excess fat contributing to my insulin resistance and is no way way related to reinflating my little, tiny raisin balls which my wife finds so cute.

Those who would still doubt, you may convince by eating 500cal/day for a month or two.

..

[Massa]

Do you believe that our actions are encouraging others to self-treat ?

This is a big issue for me, so please answer carefully.

personally, I would say that this forum is helpful for those who would self-medicate anyways. at least it is a chance to educate themselves beyond the "valuable" information on the webpages of their "sources"

I dont think it does encourage self-medication, though.

most important, however, you are no longer at the mercy of sometimes absolutely clueless medical practitioners.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Let me dispell this un-thought out myth HC therapy removes the important natural variation in serum glucocorticoid levels. Indeed, the goal is to replace same.

The dose of HC properly employed in Adrenal Fatigue treatment is a short "baseline", meant only to provide an almost constitutive production, to maintain stability. You are providing merely what is needed to keep going. The HPAA can then "rest" a bit, as I describe "sitting on a step". It still can, and must, provide the spikes of stress hormones necessary to cope with immediate stressors.