GHRH/GHRP Thread 2.0

[Wise Guy]

Old thread

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2456

Enjoy! :sifone:

[Dadnatron]

Woot!

[JRA]

When using GHRP-6 will you get the best results using a AM or PM dose?

[Wise Guy]

When using GHRP-6 will you get the best results using a AM or PM dose?

JRA,

It is my understanding that you want to agonize the naturally occurring night time pulse of GH that occurs, generally 30-60 min into sleep, and lasts 3 hours.

There is some data out there that shows this pulse sort of sets itself to a circadian rhythm - similar to how women will have menstrual cycles on a regular time regulated by hormones, this pulse sort of acts in a similar manner.

Meaning your body gets used to you going to bed at say 11pm......And will pulse GH accordingly, but only if your in slow wave sleep. If your awake, all bets are off. Thus, this is why we often feel tired on Saturdays even if we slept 8 hours, if we stayed up late and didn't adhere to a regular schedule.

So its not necessarily what time you go to bed, but more of staying on a regular schedule and sleeping in as dark of an environment as possible.

This is the highest pulse of GH which occurs in men.

Other small pulses occur throughout the day, especially PWO

Ideally, if your looking to add a second dosage of peptides or a peptide/analog combo, this would be ideal for the second dosage.

IMO though, I would imagine that 2 a day injects would be intrusive after awhile, but would be doable for cycling purposes (say 4-6 weeks)

[JRA]

JRA,

It is my understanding that you want to agonize the naturally occurring night time pulse of GH that occurs, generally 30-60 min into sleep, and lasts 3 hours.

There is some data out there that shows this pulse sort of sets itself to a circadian rhythm - similar to how women will have menstrual cycles on a regular time regulated by hormones, this pulse sort of acts in a similar manner.

Meaning your body gets used to you going to bed at say 11pm......And will pulse GH accordingly, but only if your in slow wave sleep. If your awake, all bets are off. Thus, this is why we often feel tired on Saturdays even if we slept 8 hours, if we stayed up late and didn't adhere to a regular schedule.

So its not necessarily what time you go to bed, but more of staying on a regular schedule and sleeping in as dark of an environment as possible.

This is the highest pulse of GH which occurs in men.

Other small pulses occur throughout the day, especially PWO

Ideally, if your looking to add a second dosage of peptides or a peptide/analog combo, this would be ideal for the second dosage.

IMO though, I would imagine that 2 a day injects would be intrusive after awhile, but would be doable for cycling purposes (say 4-6 weeks)

Thanks for the advice.
I think I will use the GHRP-6 in the morning and try Sermorelin at night.
There are many possible combinations using peptides, there may be a better combinations that I don't know about.

[Wise Guy]

Thanks for the advice.
I think I will use the GHRP-6 in the morning and try Sermorelin at night.
There are many possible combinations using peptides, there may be a better combinations that I don't know about.

No.

If your going to add in a second dosage, opt for PWO

Running a GH analog, such as GRF 1-44 (sermorelin), w/out something to inhibit somatostatin is useless and futile.

You've got some more homework to do.

[Wise Guy]

Does anyone know the source of GHRP-6 John uses? This is, to my knowledge, not an official human injectable. It is designed as laboratory use only...

it is used kinda...

'off label'.

No. He uses real pharm grade GHRP-6 from anewrx, which is FDA approved and legal.

[cpeil2]

My thoughts exactly. Same thing happened with the thyroid nuggets thread. It got lumped in with a bunch of other thyroid threads which makes it very difficult to find what you are looking for.

If the thread title is specific in its topic regarding a specific medication or treatment then it should not be merged with other threads that are related to the same medication or treatment unless it is the exact same topic of discussion.

The ginormous threads, like the old GHRP thread with almost 500 posts are basically worthless.

Where are those librarians when you need them? BTW, the ones who specialize in designing classification systems are called "classificationists".

[JRA]

No.

If your going to add in a second dosage, opt for PWO

Running a GH analog, such as GRF 1-44 (sermorelin), w/out something to inhibit somatostatin is useless and futile.

You've got some more homework to do.

I tried to start a new thread to get some answers.
Sermorelin and GHRP-6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was thinking about starting both of these.
Any suggestions, is there anything like these that would be better?


This was your answer to me.

Re: Sermorelin and GHRP-6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please do a search. Both have been discussed at length. Thank you.
__________________

All I was wanting was some suggestions on my questions.
Thank You

[Wise Guy]

I tried to start a new thread to get some answers.
Sermorelin and GHRP-6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was thinking about starting both of these.
Any suggestions, is there anything like these that would be better?


This was your answer to me.

Re: Sermorelin and GHRP-6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please do a search. Both have been discussed at length. Thank you.
__________________

All I was wanting was some suggestions on my questions.
Thank You

This was talked about EXTENSIVELY in the old thread if you go back and read it. I mentioned it on the VERY FIRST PAGE - post #9 - http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28078&postcount=9

My exact quote

"Sermorelin cannot be ran by itself"

The basic foundation for using a GHRP is to inhibit somatostatin so GHRH can be used.

Thats basically step one.

I found that quote in less than one minute.

[JRA]

This was talked about EXTENSIVELY in the old thread if you go back and read it. I mentioned it on the VERY FIRST PAGE - post #9 - http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28078&postcount=9

My exact quote

"Sermorelin cannot be ran by itself"

The basic foundation for using a GHRP is to inhibit somatostatin so GHRH can be used.

Thats basically step one.

I found that quote in less than one minute.

I am new to this form, so my searching skills have not evolved to the higher level that you possess.

I read the link, and it answered my question.
Would it have been so difficult to answered my original post with this link?

I thought the purpose of this forum was everyone trying to help each other, not just telling someone to do some research.

[Wise Guy]

I am new to this form, so my searching skills have not evolved to the higher level that you possess.

I read the link, and it answered my question.
Would it have been so difficult to answered my original post with this link?

I thought the purpose of this forum was everyone trying to help each other, not just telling someone to do some research.

I'll send you the right way, but I'm not going to hold your hand.

Its up to you to do some research.

This thread is already clogged with stuff, I will be pruning later.

[hbk]

Someone should make a sticky with all the protocols that are standard issue. I know there is one that dr john wrote for trt but there should be some for ghrp-6, ipamorelin, sermorelin.

ex (I am just a guy reading this thread no doctor) ghrp-6 plus sermorelin: typical dosage is 100mcg of each taken together before bed. (other options include the use of mucuna eod at x dosage combined or ran with ghrp-6) Ipamorelin can be used intead of ghrp-6 because of its more selective role in increasing growth hormone.

I have done so much research on this forum it is incredible and yes every answer is in the forum it seems at least once. The problem is I know that this forum is the best so I will spend time here but newbies probably would rather post then search. If you had a sticky that showed the major protocols it would save everyone a lot of time. Also this stuff changes so fast literally a new peptide comes out or some new otc product which helps and it makes you have to go back and figure it all out again on whats the best. This way things could be modified so you always no what the most efficient protocol is. People BS to much on the forums to read 10-50 pages when really only a select few seem to really know what they are talking about.

[JanSz]

Someone should make a sticky with all the protocols that are standard issue. I know there is one that dr john wrote for trt but there should be some for ghrp-6, ipamorelin, sermorelin.

ex (I am just a guy reading this thread no doctor) ghrp-6 plus sermorelin: typical dosage is 100mcg of each taken together before bed. (other options include the use of mucuna eod at x dosage combined or ran with ghrp-6) Ipamorelin can be used intead of ghrp-6 because of its more selective role in increasing growth hormone.

I have done so much research on this forum it is incredible and yes every answer is in the forum it seems at least once. The problem is I know that this forum is the best so I will spend time here but newbies probably would rather post then search. If you had a sticky that showed the major protocols it would save everyone a lot of time. Also this stuff changes so fast literally a new peptide comes out or some new otc product which helps and it makes you have to go back and figure it all out again on whats the best. This way things could be modified so you always no what the most efficient protocol is. People BS to much on the forums to read 10-50 pages when really only a select few seem to really know what they are talking about.

Possibly this may help you:
http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=47229&postcount=24

Scroll down to:

"Un-GHRT" Protocol

//

[theedaddy]

has anyone been one month without ANY sort of supplements/HCG/other, THEN started ONLY GHRH/GHRP? what results would happen form that controlled test?

just recently it hit me, I'm taking 20+ supplements along with GHRH/GHRP, how would i know it helping?

plus has anyone took before and after pics during GHRH/GHRP?

i also find it odd that if after a few days or weeks if the person feels GREAT, thats correct. but if after few days or weeks nothing, you need to want longer like months/6 months. weird

[seekonk]

has anyone been one month without ANY sort of supplements/HCG/other, THEN started ONLY GHRH/GHRP? what results would happen form that controlled test?

Yes. Me. I ran only GHRP-6. Nothing else, for three months. Pharma grade from AnewRx. Initially 100 mcg/day. Upped to 200 mcg/day after 2 months.

As I mentioned before, it did nothing for me. Actually, after 2 months my libido tanked, and I worried that the GHRP-6 might be responsible, since the same happened to some other guys on GHRP-6. In any case, this scared me enough that I stopped. Your mileage may vary.

[Drew]

Yes. Me. I ran only GHRP-6. Nothing else, for three months. Pharma grade from AnewRx. Initially 100 mcg/day. Upped to 200 mcg/day after 2 months.

As I mentioned before, it did nothing for me. Actually, after 2 months my libido tanked, and I worried that the GHRP-6 might be responsible, since the same happened to some other guys on GHRP-6. In any case, this scared me enough that I stopped. Your mileage may vary.

How did you dose this? How much do you weigh? What were your dietary habits +/- 2 hours around the injections?

[seekonk]

How did you dose this? How much do you weigh? What were your dietary habits +/- 2 hours around the injections?

See above for dose. Mostly bedtime, about 1 hour after eating last snack, but switched to morning last month because of problem sleeping. 160 lbs at the time.

[Drew]

See above for dose. Mostly bedtime, about 1 hour after eating last snack, but switched to morning last month because of problem sleeping. 160 lbs at the time.

Ok, thanks. What did your snack consist of? For best results with GHRP, you shouldn't eat anything 2-3 hours around dosing. If you do, it should be zero fat, little carbs, and mostly protein.

Dosing with this stuff is tricky. Saturation for GHRP-6 is 100mcg...for a man who is 100kg. For GHRP, it's mostly based on weight. Given your 160 lbs., ~72mcg is a "saturation" dose. This means for you, 100mcg won't be a whole lot more effective than 72mcg, and 200mcg wouldn't really be a whole lot more effective than 100mcg.

Males produce GH differently than females. A female's production is generally fairly flat. Men have different peaks and troughs during a 24 hour period. This is critical because our goal is to get those peaks up high, and also hit those trough levels. The trough levels re-sensitize gh receptors, making that ghrp work it's magic. We want a male pattern here, not a female pattern, although a female pattern COULD lead to a higher IGF-1 (not necessarily a good thing)

The 3 best times to dose GHRP (for restoring youthful levels) are as follows, from most important to least important:

1) Before bed, on an empty stomach (preferably with mucuna pruriens eod)
2) Right before your workout. This will spike GH, and your workout will spike GH even more. Again, this should be on an empty stomach, 2 hours away from food (fat especially, but protein and carbs PWO should be fine).
3) Upon rising. Again, avoid fats at least 2 hours pre & post injection.

Dosing this way, you are helping your body mimic natural, healty GH pulses. Also of note, IGF-1 levels may or may not increase from this. That isn't the point, as that's not our goal. Our goal is restoring youthful GH levels.

[Dadnatron]

Dosing with this stuff is tricky. Saturation for GHRP-6 is 100mcg...for a man who is 100kg. For GHRP, it's mostly based on weight. Given your 160 lbs., ~72mcg is a "saturation" dose. This means for you, 100mcg won't be a whole lot more effective than 72mcg, and 200mcg wouldn't really be a whole lot more effective than 100mcg.



This isn't quite true. Although I agree that the saturation dose is approximately 1mcg/kg, that is the saturation dose in which you get a relative linear increase in output along with dosing. ie doubling the dose from 50 - 100mcg gives you almost twice as much HGH release. However, at 100mcg saturation of the receptors is reached and doses above this no longer have a linear effect. HOWEVER you will still get a relative increase up to 400mcg. At which the difference from 400 - 500 is negligable. Changing from 100 - 200 increases the effective HGH output approximately 30% MORE HGH output... a far cry from the 100% increase moving from a 50 - 100mcg dose obtains.

There becomes a 'worth it' phase in which the amount of injectable is no longer worth the output achieved. Moving from 100mcg to 200mcg COSTS twice as much however is only giving you 30% efficacy. And we must remember... you could dump a gallon of HGH into your body all at once... and it wouldn't have a 'gallons' worth of effect on you. Your body can only utilize hormones on a scale basis. There is a point where you don't have enough... there is a sweet point... there is a sweetpoint+... and there is a pissing it out the door or screwing up everything else point.

If your body cannot appropriately utilize the amount of HGH which is achieved by 200mcg, then you are wasting your peptide. The real issue is that there have been no studies to date which show a 'utilization curve' for HGH... so the standard thinking remains GIVE/MAKE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN! We don't do that with Testosterone... but I don't think we have quite gotten to the understanding of HGH at this point.

[seekonk]

Ok, thanks. What did your snack consist of? For best results with GHRP, you shouldn't eat anything 2-3 hours around dosing.

Maybe, but people who report good results have all kinds of dosing w.r.t. timing of meals. It does not seem to make all that much difference.

[Wise Guy]

This isn't quite true. Although I agree that the saturation dose is approximately 1mcg/kg, that is the saturation dose in which you get a relative linear increase in output along with dosing. ie doubling the dose from 50 - 100mcg gives you almost twice as much HGH release. However, at 100mcg saturation of the receptors is reached and doses above this no longer have a linear effect. HOWEVER you will still get a relative increase up to 400mcg. At which the difference from 400 - 500 is negligable. Changing from 100 - 200 increases the effective HGH output approximately 30% MORE HGH output... a far cry from the 100% increase moving from a 50 - 100mcg dose obtains.

There becomes a 'worth it' phase in which the amount of injectable is no longer worth the output achieved. Moving from 100mcg to 200mcg COSTS twice as much however is only giving you 30% efficacy. And we must remember... you could dump a gallon of HGH into your body all at once... and it wouldn't have a 'gallons' worth of effect on you. Your body can only utilize hormones on a scale basis. There is a point where you don't have enough... there is a sweet point... there is a sweetpoint+... and there is a pissing it out the door or screwing up everything else point.

If your body cannot appropriately utilize the amount of HGH which is achieved by 200mcg, then you are wasting your peptide. The real issue is that there have been no studies to date which show a 'utilization curve' for HGH... so the standard thinking remains GIVE/MAKE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN! We don't do that with Testosterone... but I don't think we have quite gotten to the understanding of HGH at this point.

Fantastic post and very, very well said.

[Wise Guy]

Maybe, but people who report good results have all kinds of dosing w.r.t. timing of meals. It does not seem to make all that much difference.

From my understanding is that protein is a green light - go ahead and gorge

Carbs in low amounts are fine, but fats specifically must be avoided like the plague 3 hours prior up till 20 min after shot.

W/ things like fat free yogurt, protein powders, tuna, chicken, etc, this shouldn't be that difficult to manage, especially if you only inject at night.

I tend not to eat at nighttime anyways..........

[Dadnatron]

From my understanding is that protein is a green light - go ahead and gorge

Carbs in low amounts are fine, but fats specifically must be avoided like the plague 3 hours prior up till 20 min after shot.

W/ things like fat free yogurt, protein powders, tuna, chicken, etc, this shouldn't be that difficult to manage, especially if you only inject at night.

I tend not to eat at nighttime anyways..........

So Icecream while watching Late Night is out?...


.
.
.
Who said that....???

[cpeil2]

I've gone back to using the GHRP-6 - single PM dose of 100 mcg. Last night was the third dose and I woke up this morning with my veins popping and my muscles looking fuller and more cut. This happened the last time with only a few days of use.

[cpeil2]

So Icecream while watching Late Night is out?...


.
.
.
Who said that....???


Corruption in the thread police????

[wondering]

Whats this cost you?

Is that the only effect you feel?


I've gone back to using the GHRP-6 - single PM dose of 100 mcg. Last night was the third dose and I woke up this morning with my veins popping and my muscles looking fuller and more cut. This happened the last time with only a few days of use.

[Wise Guy]

So Icecream while watching Late Night is out?...


.
.
.
Who said that....???

Datbtru did. Considering he knows more about GH peptides and analogs than probably any human being on this planet, I'll spare my time trying to find research that goes against that and just take his word :laugh:

They do make fat free ice cream and yogurt...

[Wise Guy]

I've gone back to using the GHRP-6 - single PM dose of 100 mcg. Last night was the third dose and I woke up this morning with my veins popping and my muscles looking fuller and more cut. This happened the last time with only a few days of use.

Cpeil - Perhaps cycling it works better for you?

Possible that maybe any chronically administered Ghrelin agents over time lose their effectiveness w/ your unique profile?

[cpeil2]

Cpeil - Perhaps cycling it works better for you?

Possible that maybe any chronically administered Ghrelin agents over time lose their effectiveness w/ your unique profile?

I decided to do a 6-month trial and keep expectations low. How much can you expect for $30/mo.? I confess that a large part of my motivation here is pure vanity cuz I just like the way the stuff makes me look.

[Dadnatron]

I've gone back to using the GHRP-6 - single PM dose of 100 mcg. Last night was the third dose and I woke up this morning with my veins popping and my muscles looking fuller and more cut. This happened the last time with only a few days of use.

Why did you change?

I have looked long and hard at the peptides, and at this moment, given my Thyroid is on the fritz, which made life interesting there for a bit, I am not doing anything differently. When I get it steady, then I will see where everything levels out.

In September, after labs, I began Secretropin. By December my TSH was 8 and my BioTest was through the floor. But my IGF had hit 268 for a single month.

I tried and tried to find a connection, but it appears that my body had developed Hashimotos thyroiditis. I guess, in my opinion, that it was merely coincidence. Quite odd, but just to keep in the back of your mind. Anyway, when I get everything stable again, I will see what, if anything, I will change.

Somehow I wonder if I was exibiting thyroid symptoms earlier, and I was looking at a low HGH as being the problem instead.

[Wise Guy]

Why did you change?

I have looked long and hard at the peptides, and at this moment, given my Thyroid is on the fritz, which made life interesting there for a bit, I am not doing anything differently. When I get it steady, then I will see where everything levels out.

In September, after labs, I began Secretropin. By December my TSH was 8 and my BioTest was through the floor. But my IGF had hit 268 for a single month.

I tried and tried to find a connection, but it appears that my body had developed Hashimotos thyroiditis. I guess, in my opinion, that it was merely coincidence. Quite odd, but just to keep in the back of your mind. Anyway, when I get everything stable again, I will see what, if anything, I will change.

Somehow I wonder if I was exibiting thyroid symptoms earlier, and I was looking at a low HGH as being the problem instead.

Exactly. When our energy levels start to dip and things aren't in quite a working order as they once were, we automatically assume testosterone or growth hormone......when it could be something as simple as low DHEA, adrenal fatigue, etc.

I would think one would be much better off (and easier/less complicated) to address thyroid issues prior to GH issues.

Often, it is as simple as an inexpensive pill and some initial fine tuning on the doses.

[Wise Guy]

I decided to do a 6-month trial and keep expectations low. How much can you expect for $30/mo.? I confess that a large part of my motivation here is pure vanity cuz I just like the way the stuff makes me look.

Any pre/post urinary GH numbers?

Surely it would be worth it with even as little as a 25% bump.

The boost in repair hormones could be looked at as a daily multivitamin. :tongue_smilie: for life extension

The effects on heart tissue and bone density alone would be worth it - even if you don't "feel" a thing

[cpeil2]

Why did you change?

I have looked long and hard at the peptides, and at this moment, given my Thyroid is on the fritz, which made life interesting there for a bit, I am not doing anything differently. When I get it steady, then I will see where everything levels out.

In September, after labs, I began Secretropin. By December my TSH was 8 and my BioTest was through the floor. But my IGF had hit 268 for a single month.

I tried and tried to find a connection, but it appears that my body had developed Hashimotos thyroiditis. I guess, in my opinion, that it was merely coincidence. Quite odd, but just to keep in the back of your mind. Anyway, when I get everything stable again, I will see what, if anything, I will change.

Somehow I wonder if I was exibiting thyroid symptoms earlier, and I was looking at a low HGH as being the problem instead.


Supply chain breakdown. After being without it, I didn't miss it, so I just blew it off.

When I was using the peptide, I did notice positive, albeit slight, changes in body composition - I gained 2-3 lbs and bodyfat went down from 13-14% to 11 %. Those changes have pretty much reversed themselves. I'm spoiled now, having been that lean. I'm at 14%, which is pretty good for 57 yo, but I feel like a doughboy. I think I've caught body dismorphic disorder. Having been within shouting distance of single-digit body fat, there's no going back.

[cpeil2]

Any pre/post urinary GH numbers?

Surely it would be worth it with even as little as a 25% bump.

The boost in repair hormones could be looked at as a daily multivitamin. :tongue_smilie: for life extension

The effects on heart tissue and bone density alone would be worth it - even if you don't "feel" a thing

No, when my therapy was interrupted in December, I was on the verge of doing a 24-hr UA, but didn't see the point after I stopped the peptide. I did do IGF-1 after about two mos. use and had an anomalous result -my level had dropped from 140 to 100, but my serum insulin runs really low, so IGF-1 in me is not a reliable index of GH level.

[Dadnatron]

Any pre/post urinary GH numbers?

Surely it would be worth it with even as little as a 25% bump.

The boost in repair hormones could be looked at as a daily multivitamin. :tongue_smilie: for life extension

The effects on heart tissue and bone density alone would be worth it - even if you don't "feel" a thing

This is my biggest issue with peptides... NO ONE... or very few... are actually CHECKING their numbers to determine efficacy of dosing. Also, there is no data which shows true benefit from an 'amount or level' of GH. So we are all shooting in the dark, hoping for something because it 'makes sense' but knowing absolutely NOTHING about the drugs in reality.

HOW MUCH GH can a body actually use? IS it the GH itself, or a metabolite or perhaps secondary hormone ie IGF-1? We use IGF-1 to evaluate GH efficacy, however, we don't know exactly what is doing the 'work we want' and what is just increasing our chances for retinopathy.

Dat puts alot of heat into pulsation as being key. However, there is no data that in humans, pulsation is beneficial (that I have been able to find) however, there is a rat study from 1997 which talks about it. We don't actually know the amount of IFG-1 produced via pulsation, however we DO know that IGF-1 is produced due to the BASAL GH level NOT the pulsation level. So... if we are trying to gain muscle and lose fat, what exactly is occurring at the working end of the equation of

^GH -> (????) = muscle gain and fat loss

I have seen every permutation of the metabolites used in some form or another and one of the MOST prevalent is IGF-1 at the local level. IGF-1 locally can be put there in one of 2 ways, either through vascular system, ie systemic diffusion via blood or via local production. Since the LARGEST SOURCE of IGF-1 is in the liver and the liver has no real use for it, it stands reasonable that the circulatory levels have meaning. However, we don't KNOW what meaning they have and how much is 'beneficial' and how much is 'too much' or if there is such a thing.

There are so many holes in GH understanding. There are people who believe they understand what is going on, based upon conjecture via 10 year old research. However, I am skeptical about what is really occuring. One thing we have found is that the human body likes balance. When we go messing with it very much, we can really screw it up.

[hbk]

Does Dr J actually prescribe real HGH? I am assuming not since he uses the peptides and because of the laws that are in place for using the drug. I have been interested in actual tests as well on these peptides. I was always curious how people say Ipamorel works better than ghrp-6 or that using the Mucuna eod helps increase hgh with it yet I dont see a lot of test results. Also the scary thing is that I have probably seen more posts from people who have levels dropped such as igf-1 after using some of these peptides. Also hear complaints about loss of libido and that is the exact opposite of what hgh should do. I think most people are doing what WiseGuy said and just trying it because its only $30 and go off the feeling.

[seekonk]

From my understanding is that protein is a green light - go ahead and gorge

Carbs in low amounts are fine, but fats specifically must be avoided like the plague 3 hours prior up till 20 min after shot.

W/ things like fat free yogurt, protein powders, tuna, chicken, etc, this shouldn't be that difficult to manage, especially if you only inject at night.

Okay, then I should have been fine. The problem, if any, was not in the feeding then.

[cpeil2]

Does Dr J actually prescribe real HGH? I am assuming not since he uses the peptides and because of the laws that are in place for using the drug. I have been interested in actual tests as well on these peptides. I was always curious how people say Ipamorel works better than ghrp-6 or that using the Mucuna eod helps increase hgh with it yet I dont see a lot of test results. Also the scary thing is that I have probably seen more posts from people who have levels dropped such as igf-1 after using some of these peptides. Also hear complaints about loss of libido and that is the exact opposite of what hgh should do. I think most people are doing what WiseGuy said and just trying it because its only $30 and go off the feeling.

He used to but the legal climate has become so hostile that he has stopped.

[Drew]

This isn't quite true. Although I agree that the saturation dose is approximately 1mcg/kg, that is the saturation dose in which you get a relative linear increase in output along with dosing. ie doubling the dose from 50 - 100mcg gives you almost twice as much HGH release. However, at 100mcg saturation of the receptors is reached and doses above this no longer have a linear effect. HOWEVER you will still get a relative increase up to 400mcg. At which the difference from 400 - 500 is negligable. Changing from 100 - 200 increases the effective HGH output approximately 30% MORE HGH output... a far cry from the 100% increase moving from a 50 - 100mcg dose obtains.

There becomes a 'worth it' phase in which the amount of injectable is no longer worth the output achieved. Moving from 100mcg to 200mcg COSTS twice as much however is only giving you 30% efficacy. And we must remember... you could dump a gallon of HGH into your body all at once... and it wouldn't have a 'gallons' worth of effect on you. Your body can only utilize hormones on a scale basis. There is a point where you don't have enough... there is a sweet point... there is a sweetpoint+... and there is a pissing it out the door or screwing up everything else point.

If your body cannot appropriately utilize the amount of HGH which is achieved by 200mcg, then you are wasting your peptide. The real issue is that there have been no studies to date which show a 'utilization curve' for HGH... so the standard thinking remains GIVE/MAKE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN! We don't do that with Testosterone... but I don't think we have quite gotten to the understanding of HGH at this point.

Ah, thank you for the correction. I was lazy at the time, and it was off the top of my head. But you are correct. My point, really, is that 1 + 1 probably equals 2, but 2 + 2 might only equal 3 (when dosing ghrp).

[Pace2]

Does I know that GHRP 6 and 2 can raise cortisol and prolactin levels. Is it also known to raise histamine and/or choline levels at all?

[seekonk]

GHRP-6 is also known to suppress LH.

[Drew]

Does I know that GHRP 6 and 2 can raise cortisol and prolactin levels. Is it also known to raise histamine and/or choline levels at all?

GHRP-2 can raise both to a small extent, although relatively transient. GHRP-6 has the smallest impact on cortisol and prolactin out of the GHRP's. For both, I have no idea about histamine/choline.

[seekonk]

GHRP-2 can raise both to a small extent, although relatively transient. GHRP-6 has the smallest impact on cortisol and prolactin out of the GHRP's.

No, I think that would be ipamorelin.

[JanSz]

No, when my therapy was interrupted in December, I was on the verge of doing a 24-hr UA, but didn't see the point after I stopped the peptide. I did do IGF-1 after about two mos. use and had an anomalous result -my level had dropped from 140 to 100, but my serum insulin runs really low, so IGF-1 in me is not a reliable index of GH level.

GH=f(insulin, IGF-1)

Please explain how this relationship works.

After drastic reduction in my high GI food my insulin dropped from 8 to less than 2.

How to evaluate GH level when

IGF-1=138(75-228)ng/dL

in presence of

insulin>2

What about if

IGF-1=138

but

insulin=8
..

[Drew]

No, I think that would be ipamorelin.

Here is a quote from Dat:

"Hexarelin is the strongest of the GHS peptides. It also induces higher amounts of cortisol & prolactin then the other peptides. It may (according to one comparison study) desensitize quicker. GHRP-2 is a little less strong with less impact on cortisol & prolactin. GHRP-6 has very little impact on cortisol & prolactin (although it is a little elevated above 1mcg/kg dosing) and is a little less stronger than GHRP-2. "

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/peptides-growth-factors/37381-dats-cjc-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides-3.html

From what I'm reading here, it can still have an impact on cortisol and prolactin, and as I said earlier, not huge and can be transient.

[Pace2]

No, I think that would be ipamorelin.

Seekonk, you are saying Ipamorelin increases histamine/choline?

[josh]

Dr Mark L Gordon: Somatopause - Nuances and Treatment Strategies

http://digivision.instatapes.com.s3.amazonaws.com/gordon/player.HTM

:thumbup1:

So tempting to buy the series, but $239 :(

[BigJimcalhoun]

Does Dr J actually prescribe real HGH? I am assuming not since he uses the peptides and because of the laws that are in place for using the drug. I have been interested in actual tests as well on these peptides. I was always curious how people say Ipamorel works better than ghrp-6 or that using the Mucuna eod helps increase hgh with it yet I dont see a lot of test results. Also the scary thing is that I have probably seen more posts from people who have levels dropped such as igf-1 after using some of these peptides. Also hear complaints about loss of libido and that is the exact opposite of what hgh should do. I think most people are doing what WiseGuy said and just trying it because its only $30 and go off the feeling.
Some people would argue that a higher IGF-1 levels lead to decreased longevity. HGH can increase levels for a more sustained period while peptides are more pulsile and act more natually.

A number of us here who have low fasting insulin levels have seen IGF-1 levels drop, but have lost weight or had subjective benefits from peptides. My fasting insulin levels are < 2. For me, higher GH levels are more important than higher IGF-1 levels.

[BigJimcalhoun]

GHRP-6 is also known to suppress LH.
Reference please :cheers2:

[JRA]

Does anyone know of any problems using GHRP-6 and HCG together?

[cpeil2]

GH=f(insulin, IGF-1)

Please explain how this relationship works.

After drastic reduction in my high GI food my insulin dropped from 8 to less than 2.

How to evaluate GH level when

IGF-1=138(75-228)ng/dL

in presence of

insulin>2

What about if

IGF-1=138

but

insulin=8
..

I only have a sketchy understanding of the relationship between GH/IGF-1/insulin.

GH signals the liver to produce IGF-1. Dr. John observed that, in certain individuals, GHRP-6 use did not produce increases in IGF-1, or that IGF-1 level even decreased with GHRP-6 use. Many of these same individuals had very low fasting insulin levels. Because of this apparent relationship, Dr. John posits that IGF-1 production also requires insulin. In those with very low fasting insulin levels, he recommended measuring IGF-1 postprandially in order to get a truer picture of one's IGF-1 status.

My fasting insulin level is usually <2, and when I measured IGF-1, fasting, after about two months of GHRP-6 use, my IGF-1 level had gone down from 140 to 100. I have not done the postprandial test. Others have and it hasn't made that much of a difference in the result. Our current thinking, based on this, is that IGF-1 may not be a reliable indicator of one's GH status. In order to get a reliable picture of one's GH status, it is probably necessary to do a 24-hour UA. Late last year, I was about to order the 24-hour UA, when my supply of GHRP-6 was interrupted. Since I wasn't using the peptide, I decided not to bother with the trouble and expense of the 24-hr UA.

It's all guesswork at this point.

[seekonk]

Our current thinking, based on this, is that IGF-1 may not be a reliable indicator of one's GH status.

Understood, but what if IGF-1 is an indicator of how effectively GH is being metabolized? In this case, the useful marker might indeed be IGF-1, not GH.

Also, GH might need insulin to do some of its job.

[cpeil2]

Understood, but what if IGF-1 is an indicator of how effectively GH is being metabolized? In this case, the useful marker might indeed be IGF-1, not GH.

Also, GH might need insulin to do some of its job.

Guesswork, as I said.

[Wise Guy]

This is my biggest issue with peptides... NO ONE... or very few... are actually CHECKING their numbers to determine efficacy of dosing. Also, there is no data which shows true benefit from an 'amount or level' of GH. So we are all shooting in the dark, hoping for something because it 'makes sense' but knowing absolutely NOTHING about the drugs in reality.

HOW MUCH GH can a body actually use? IS it the GH itself, or a metabolite or perhaps secondary hormone ie IGF-1? We use IGF-1 to evaluate GH efficacy, however, we don't know exactly what is doing the 'work we want' and what is just increasing our chances for retinopathy.

Dat puts alot of heat into pulsation as being key. However, there is no data that in humans, pulsation is beneficial (that I have been able to find) however, there is a rat study from 1997 which talks about it. We don't actually know the amount of IFG-1 produced via pulsation, however we DO know that IGF-1 is produced due to the BASAL GH level NOT the pulsation level. So... if we are trying to gain muscle and lose fat, what exactly is occurring at the working end of the equation of

^GH -> (????) = muscle gain and fat loss

I have seen every permutation of the metabolites used in some form or another and one of the MOST prevalent is IGF-1 at the local level. IGF-1 locally can be put there in one of 2 ways, either through vascular system, ie systemic diffusion via blood or via local production. Since the LARGEST SOURCE of IGF-1 is in the liver and the liver has no real use for it, it stands reasonable that the circulatory levels have meaning. However, we don't KNOW what meaning they have and how much is 'beneficial' and how much is 'too much' or if there is such a thing.

There are so many holes in GH understanding. There are people who believe they understand what is going on, based upon conjecture via 10 year old research. However, I am skeptical about what is really occuring. One thing we have found is that the human body likes balance. When we go messing with it very much, we can really screw it up.

Excellent points Doc.

Dat did touch on what you are talking about extensively - I have to go back into his work again. But I remember him specifically mentioning something about IGF-1 levels.

He specifically noted that serum IGF-1 numbers and IGF-1 being expressed on a cellular level (and initiating repairs/paracrine actions) are two different things.

Meaning, one's serum IGF-1 level isn't linear with IGF-1 being expressed locally.

Not only that, a 3 hour pulse in GH and IGF-1 simply isn't going to show up much on a serum IGF-1 test.

The real marker would be to measure it over 24 hours.

Now if you aren't noticing anything appreciable there, I can see the issues.

I just sent in my Rheins kit for 24 hour steroid and GH analysis. I'm totally natural right now. Should be interesting :seeya:

[Wise Guy]

GHRP-6 has the smallest impact on cortisol and prolactin out of the GHRP's. .

No - Ipamorelin does.

Ipamorelin is so selective w/ GH release that almost no effect on prolactin and/or cortisol is present, even with supra doses in the mgs (not mcgs)

Its far superior to any of the other GHRP's.

[Wise Guy]

GHRP-6 is also known to suppress LH.

No - Ghrelin specifically can potentially suppress LH.

GHRP's act upon the Ghrelin receptor, however, at normal saturation doses, they do not exhibit enough effect upon the receptor to initiate any sort of LH desensitization to any appreciable level.

In anything, the boost in GH is known to re-sensitize Leydig cells, which in turn will boost the testes responsiveness to LH.

[seekonk]

In anything, the boost in GH is known to re-sensitize Leydig cells, ...

Is this from a study?

[Wise Guy]

Is this from a study?

Commonly known, all over pubmed and the net. Should be easy to find the literature.

[seekonk]

No - Ghrelin specifically can potentially suppress LH.

GHRP's act upon the Ghrelin receptor, however, at normal saturation doses, they do not exhibit enough effect upon the receptor to initiate any sort of LH desensitization to any appreciable level.

How do we know that this is the case, though? Without a specific study I worry that we may just be guessing...

B.t.w., for completeness I cite the study on Ghrelin and LH again.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/92/8/3202



Results: Ghrelin was associated with significantly (P < 0.05) lower mean plasma levels of both LH (2340–0200 h) and testosterone (0040–0300 h) than placebo. LH peak levels of the pulse after first administration of ghrelin/placebo were significantly (P = 0.014) smaller in the ghrelin (2.98 ± 1.34 mIU/ml) than in the placebo condition (4.37 ± 1.09 mIU/ml). In addition, the interval between this and the preceding peak was significantly (P = 0.010) longer in the ghrelin (255.8 ± 79.1 min) than in the placebo condition (190.8 ± 51.0 min). Significantly (P = 0.005) more LH pulses occurred with placebo (3.2 ± 0.75) than ghrelin (2.6 ± 0.7) subsequent to ghrelin/placebo administration.

Conclusions: Ghrelin caused both a delay and suppression of the amplitude of LH pulses. These findings are in accordance with those in nonhuman mammalians.

[Wise Guy]

How do we know that this is the case, though? Without a specific study I worry that we may just be guessing...

B.t.w., for completeness I cite the study on Ghrelin and LH again.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/92/8/3202

Again, it is important to note here that there are vast differences between Ghrelin and GH peptides that have a *slight* affinity for Ghrelin activity and act as "Ghrelin Mimetics".

Not necessarily apples and oranges here, but I would say Golden Delicious Crunchy Washington apples, versus crab apples found rotting on the ground :biggrin:

[BigJimcalhoun]

Does anyone know of any problems using GHRP-6 and HCG together?
Atrophy of the wallet

[JRA]

Atrophy of the wallet

I thought that condition was cased by my Ex wife.

[seekonk]

Again, it is important to note here that there are vast differences between Ghrelin and GH peptides that have a *slight* affinity for Ghrelin activity and act as "Ghrelin Mimetics".

Okay, but I thought that GH release is precisely because GHRP-6 acts on ghrelin receptors. If the affinity is that weak, why does it work at all?

[detectivemills]

Okay, but I thought that GH release is precisely because GHRP-6 acts on ghrelin receptors. If the affinity is that weak, why does it work at all?

Actually, I've found that the biggest reason why GHRP's of any sort work as well as they do -- is their ability to inhibit somatostatin (which tends to block or at least hinder GH Release).

Somatostatin increases more and more as we age. So getting this somatostatin DOWN is a big chunk of the battle out of the way.

[Drew]

No - Ipamorelin does.

Ipamorelin is so selective w/ GH release that almost no effect on prolactin and/or cortisol is present, even with supra doses in the mgs (not mcgs)

Its far superior to any of the other GHRP's.

Yeah, at the time I wasn't considering Ipa a GHRP. Probably because I had just read Dat say it's differentiated from GHRP-6 & GHRP-2 in that it's smaller, a pentapeptide I think is what it is. It's structure has 5 components and not six. It's more technical than that I think, but that's what I got out of it.

[seekonk]

Actually, I've found that the biggest reason why GHRP's of any sort work as well as they do -- is their ability to inhibit somatostatin (which tends to block or at least hinder GH Release).



No, I don't believe this is correct. I am not aware of any evidence that GHRPs inhibit somatostatin.

[seekonk]

I am wondering if some of the reported rapid benefits of GHRPs, such as sense of well-being and relief of joint pain, could perhaps be explained by stimulation of cortisol release, not GH.

[wondering]

Anyone give up HCG for GHRP-6 and find an improvement. Im on HCG and it doesnt see to do a thing for me. GHRP-6 is cheaper too yes?


Does anyone know of any problems using GHRP-6 and HCG together?

[detectivemills]

No, I don't believe this is correct. I am not aware of any evidence that GHRPs inhibit somatostatin.

I thought that was the case...

...afterall it's the only reason I'm taking a GHRP haha.

[Drew]

No, I don't believe this is correct. I am not aware of any evidence that GHRPs inhibit somatostatin.

There are many out there concluding GHRP's suppress somatostatin. Here is the first one I found. It is on rats, but there are studies on humans too:

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=126826

[Wise Guy]

No, I don't believe this is correct. I am not aware of any evidence that GHRPs inhibit somatostatin.

Actually, this is the precise foundation upon which they work.

Somatostatin, also known as GHIH (growth hormone inhibiting hormone) works as a check and balance with GHRH (growth hormone releasing hormone).

Why somatostatin levels rise w/ age is something I'm not entirely sure about - I need to read up on it again, but it does happen.

I suspect that the two (GHRH and GHIH) act as sort of a balancing scheme, like a teeter totter, and as one goes down, the other goes up.

This happens all the time, even in healthy young men. We don't want GHRH chronically released all day - just prior to forming GH pulses.

However, GHRH slows down as we age - This is because of the neurons, which GHRH travels through once its been released from the pituitary somatotrophs, becomes blunted.

The reason GHRH release is blunted is because of "choke points" in the neurons. The neurons become clogged up (possibly w/ lipofuscin and other agents, causing bottle necks.

Why they get clogged up, and how to treat them, is probably the future of GHRT. I suspect that agents which work as powerful anti-oxidents and readily cross the BBB would be of service here. So would anti-lipofuscin agents.

One of the ways in which Deprenyl is such a fascinating drug is that it sort of treats this condition. It acts as a powerful anti-oxident, crosses the BBB and does its work there. It also clears lipofuscin from the brain.

Early results from Deprenyl show that it is a powerful GHRH releaser. I suspect one of the reasons its such a strong anti aging drug is because of this (GH boosting components, anti oxident components, and neurotransmitter boosting components).

I'm a young lad and far to green to mess w/ Deprenyl, but if I was over 50, it would be part of my anti aging regiment.

[Wise Guy]

Anyone give up HCG for GHRP-6 and find an improvement. Im on HCG and it doesnt see to do a thing for me. GHRP-6 is cheaper too yes?

I suspect you mean GH, not hcg.

hcG and GH peptides are two different drugs which do two different things.

[wondering]

No I mean HCG. It doesn't seem to do much for me and I don't feel like adding GHRP-6 and adding another monthly bill. Curious about dropping HCG and trying GHRP-6 with the understanding they do different things.



I suspect you mean GH, not hcg.

hcG and GH peptides are two different drugs which do two different things.

[bamnuts]

To all out there......I messed up and on my last tewo bottles of GHRP6, I accidentally injected 1ML of solution instead of 3. I realized today when I was thinking to myself that these botlles are going a lot quicker than usual. I re-read the instructions and found out I was dosing incorrectly. That being said, occasionally I would miss a morning shot so I woul take 20IU at night......That is 6 times the dose that was prescribed. Here are my concerns?

Did I screw up my treatment with Dr. J?

I am assuming I am not going to die....because I am still typing right now.

Should I call him to do VOV on this or just resume my normal doses?

Finally for yopu really smart people on here, let me know what taking exessive amounts will do to me.

Thanks in advance

[Wise Guy]

You'll be fine at 600mcg.

Your not going to die. Your wallet will just be a little lighter.

Many have super dosed it as well. Its not more effective to do so.

[DeepThought42]

I've been unable to use GHRP-6 since December because ANEWRX is involved in licensing difficulties with California (where I live). It's been incredibly frustrating getting excited about GHRP-6 and then being unable to use it for 3 months.

Do any of you know of a compounding pharmacy that ships GHRP-6 to California with a script from Dr. Crisler?

Thanks so much for any name you can supply,

DeepThought42

[EIC]

I'm in the same boat. I find it ironic that we can get medical marijuana here, but no GHRP-6. Our state's priorities are bass ackwards.

[CowboyBob]

Has ANEWRX given any kind of estimate for when they will be able to send GHRP6 to CA?

[DeepThought42]

I'm in the same boat. I find it ironic that we can get medical marijuana here, but no GHRP-6. Our state's priorities are bass ackwards.

My understanding is that it is not a GHRP-6 issue, but rather than ANEWRX cannot ship *anything* to California. I've called them and they cannot give me any estimate whatsoever as to when this will be resolved. Originally they said that "it will certainly be much less than a month" (they told me that 6 weeks ago!!!) and more recently they said they can't give any timeframe at all. They seem like a great pharmacy and I'm sure they are trying, but they are hung up indefinitely right now.

If there was any compounding pharmacy in California that has GHRP-6, or if we connect with any compounding pharmacy outside of CA that is licensed to send to California, then we can can have GHRP-6. Surely there must be *some* other compounder other than ANEWRX that has it! Can anybody please give us such a compounder's name, so I can contact them, *please*?

thanks,
DeepThought42

[JRA]

My understanding is that it is not a GHRP-6 issue, but rather than ANEWRX cannot ship *anything* to California. I've called them and they cannot give me any estimate whatsoever as to when this will be resolved. Originally they said that "it will certainly be much less than a month" (they told me that 6 weeks ago!!!) and more recently they said they can't give any timeframe at all. They seem like a great pharmacy and I'm sure they are trying, but they are hung up indefinitely right now.

If there was any compounding pharmacy in California that has GHRP-6, or if we connect with any compounding pharmacy outside of CA that is licensed to send to California, then we can can have GHRP-6. Surely there must be *some* other compounder other than ANEWRX that has it! Can anybody please give us such a compounder's name, so I can contact them, *please*?

thanks,
DeepThought42

Do a google search for GHRP-6 online, you may find what you are looking for.

[Wise Guy]

More on the idea of using nootropic based agents, which work as anti oxidents that cross the BBB, to treat GH deficiency.

I spoke about this in this post - http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84925&postcount=74

"However, GHRH slows down as we age - This is because of the neurons, which GHRH travels through once its been released from the pituitary somatotrophs, becomes blunted.

The reason GHRH release is blunted is because of "choke points" in the neurons. The neurons become clogged up (possibly w/ lipofuscin and other agents, causing bottle necks.

Why they get clogged up, and how to treat them, is probably the future of GHRT. I suspect that agents which work as powerful anti-oxidents and readily cross the BBB would be of service here. So would anti-lipofuscin agents"

Changes of pituitary secretion after long-term treatment with hydergine, in elderly patients.

Rolandi E, Magnani G, Bottaro L, Barreca T.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of long-term treatment with an ergot derivative, dihydroergotoxine mesylate (hydergine) 6 mg/day, on pituitary secretion on 10 elderly patients of both sexes. Samples were drawn at 120 min intervals during a 24 h period, before and after 1 month of therapy. Serum levels of Prl, GH, LH, FSH, TSH and cortisol were measured by RIAs. Hydergine induced a significant increase in the nocturnal serum GH peak. Conversely, no appreciable changes in the pattern of the other hormones studied were found. The observed endocrine effects could be due to the chronic dopaminergic stimulation induced by hydergine.

[Drew]

I wonder how bromocriptine would figure into this, since it is an ergot like hydergine, raises growth hormone and reduces prolactin. Hmmm...

[EIC]

Has anyone tried to run Secretropin and GHRP-6 together? They are both thought to suppress somatostatin, but I wonder if they would act synergistically?

[Wise Guy]

Has anyone tried to run Secretropin and GHRP-6 together? They are both thought to suppress somatostatin, but I wonder if they would act synergistically?

Not sure.

Dr John told me when he goes out of town for short trips, for convenience sake he justs uses Secretropin. Its as easy as throwing a bottle in your bag.

[Bulldog]

Not sure.

Dr John told me when he goes out of town for short trips, for convenience sake he justs uses Secretropin. Its as easy as throwing a bottle in your bag.

If it works, then why not just use it all the time? Seems like a lot less hassle than SubQ shots. Secretropin is a sublingual spray, right? Even though SubQ shots are no big deal, why do them if there is a less invasive, adequate, alternative?

Is Secretropin available by prescription only? What are sources for Secretropin?

[JRA]

If it works, then why not just use it all the time? Seems like a lot less hassle than SubQ shots. Secretropin is a sublingual spray, right? Even though SubQ shots are no big deal, why do them if there is a less invasive, adequate, alternative?

Is Secretropin available by prescription only? What are sources for Secretropin?

It is supposed to be by Rx only, if you go to their website, they will sell it to you.

It's all about the money.

[may19th2001]

It has to work for some.
Indeed this is an off labled medication if you want to use it under a Dr's care I am sure that it is safe it has to be much better than HGH to prescribe if it works.


Yes. Me. I ran only GHRP-6. Nothing else, for three months. Pharma grade from AnewRx. Initially 100 mcg/day. Upped to 200 mcg/day after 2 months.

As I mentioned before, it did nothing for me. Actually, after 2 months my libido tanked, and I worried that the GHRP-6 might be responsible, since the same happened to some other guys on GHRP-6. In any case, this scared me enough that I stopped. Your mileage may vary.

[Dadnatron]

There is no doubt Secretropin increased my IGF-1 Levels. Moving from 188 -> 258 (86-220) in 2 months with NO other supplementation of anything other than vitamin and zinc. However, I am not sold on the product. It might have just been me, but immediately upon beginning Secretropin, my testosterone level began decreasing substantially. From 557 -> 329 during those same 2 months if IGF-1 increase. Now... admittadly I have found that I have Hashimoto's, which could certainly be the cause I suspect, however, it is quite strange that my labs changed SO DRAMATICALLY ONLY AFTER I began Secretropin. Whether my body was stressed by the hypothyroidism and the Secretropin merely 'uncovered' the problem by bumping GH production causing the poorly balanced system to become 'unbalanced' or whether there were untoward effects of Secretropin on my pituitary which are 'unknown'. I don't know.

If I get my Testosterone and thyroid functions optimized I might try it again and see if things go out of whack.

It is extremely easy to take. 2 sprays under the tongue in the morning 4-6 at night. Hardest thing is doing it 30 minutes before you eat or drink ANYTHING.

[seekonk]

It has to work for some.
Indeed this is an off labled medication if you want to use it under a Dr's care I am sure that it is safe it has to be much better than HGH to prescribe if it works.

Yes, I did use it under a Dr's care.

It is much cheaper and less legally problematic than HGH. I think whether it is better or not is still an open question. Certainly, we know much more about the safety profile and side effects of HGH than we do about that of GHRPs.

See Dad's experience and the reports out there of loss of libido on GHRPs - we do not know enough about these secretagogues to be sure if these are side effects or just coincidences. At least for HGH we can be pretty sure that it won't cause these issues.

[Wise Guy]

If it works, then why not just use it all the time? Seems like a lot less hassle than SubQ shots. Secretropin is a sublingual spray, right? Even though SubQ shots are no big deal, why do them if there is a less invasive, adequate, alternative?

Is Secretropin available by prescription only? What are sources for Secretropin?

Because its not as good obviously.

The convenience is worth it for the short duration. Its a trade off. A bit less effective is worth the trade off of not having to travel w/ peptides.

Script only, their website, yes its a spray.

I like a good Pinot......However, if I'm at a friends, and all they have is Merlot, obviously not as good, but its worth the trade off (versus having to drive to the store and buy a bottle)

[Wise Guy]

It is supposed to be by Rx only, if you go to their website, they will sell it to you.

It's all about the money.

What are they supposed to do, give it away for free?

Do you know how much R+D $$$$$ probably went into this thing? Patent $$$$, Legal$$$$$...........

[Wise Guy]

It is extremely easy to take. 2 sprays under the tongue in the morning 4-6 at night. Hardest thing is doing it 30 minutes before you eat or drink ANYTHING.

I'd put that thing right next to my bedside nightstand.

Immediately upon waking, apply. Then relax in bed, wake up, go poo, shower, shave, brush teeth, dress.

I'm sure that 30 min would be lapsed and I could eat then

Applying it at night would be easy - I never eat at night. I have found that if i do that, I'm not too hungry for breakfast.

I have found that if I go to bed on an empty stomach, I will wake up in the morning ravenous for some food, which is what i want.

[JRA]

What are they supposed to do, give it away for free?

Do you know how much R+D $$$$$ probably went into this thing? Patent $$$$, Legal$$$$$...........

With Obama Care I can get it for free.:biggrin:

[Dadnatron]

With Obama Care I can get it for free.:biggrin:

Yes it will be free... just give me a second to get my checkbook.

[cpeil2]

What are they supposed to do, give it away for free?

Do you know how much R+D $$$$$ probably went into this thing? Patent $$$$, Legal$$$$$...........


Do you really think so? I had the idea that it was something that Dr. Gordon cooked up, tested informally and brought to market. That's not to say it doesn't work or that Dr. Gordon isn't a smart guy.

[Dadnatron]

Do you really think so? I had the idea that it was something that Dr. Gordon cooked up, tested informally and brought to market. That's not to say it doesn't work or that Dr. Gordon isn't a smart guy.

yes... it is a 'proprietary blend' of OTC components suspended in a 'liposomal' delivery system.

If you had the components... you could simply put them under your tongue I suspect. I doubt ratios are too important. And given the relatively LOW DOSE in the spray, you could probably overcome the 'liposomal delivery' system by sheer dosage.

[JRA]

Secretropin Proprietary Blend
Active Ingredients: Pyroglutamine,L-Glutamine, L-Arginine, L-Lysine, L-Valine,L-Tyrosine Alpha-ketoglutarate, L-Ornithine, L-alphaglycerlphosphoryl-choline, Gamma Amino Butyric Acid(GABA), and Mucina pruriens.

Other Ingredients: Deionized water, Lecithin, Phospholipids, Sodium citrate, Citric acid, Maltodextrin, Potassium sorbate, Artificial color and Flavor.

[josh]

Does anyone know if you can obtain GHRP-6 or any growth hormone releasing peptides in Australia?

I can't afford growth hormone, pure and simple, but I have to do something!!

:crying:

[may19th2001]

Just the opossite for some of us on here it has helped our Sex drives a lot.


Yes. Me. I ran only GHRP-6. Nothing else, for three months. Pharma grade from AnewRx. Initially 100 mcg/day. Upped to 200 mcg/day after 2 months.

As I mentioned before, it did nothing for me. Actually, after 2 months my libido tanked, and I worried that the GHRP-6 might be responsible, since the same happened to some other guys on GHRP-6. In any case, this scared me enough that I stopped. Your mileage may vary.

[seekonk]

Just the opossite for some of us on here it has helped our Sex drives a lot.

Might depend on whether natural or not, but who really knows?

[wondering]

You're on it and it helped you?


Just the opossite for some of us on here it has helped our Sex drives a lot.

[detectivemills]

Does anyone know if you can obtain GHRP-6 or any growth hormone releasing peptides in Australia?

I can't afford growth hormone, pure and simple, but I have to do something!!

:crying:

I PM'd you, but your PM box is full.

[detectivemills]

More on the idea of using nootropic based agents, which work as anti oxidents that cross the BBB, to treat GH deficiency.

I spoke about this in this post - http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84925&postcount=74

"However, GHRH slows down as we age - This is because of the neurons, which GHRH travels through once its been released from the pituitary somatotrophs, becomes blunted.

The reason GHRH release is blunted is because of "choke points" in the neurons. The neurons become clogged up (possibly w/ lipofuscin and other agents, causing bottle necks.

Why they get clogged up, and how to treat them, is probably the future of GHRT. I suspect that agents which work as powerful anti-oxidents and readily cross the BBB would be of service here. So would anti-lipofuscin agents"

Changes of pituitary secretion after long-term treatment with hydergine, in elderly patients.

Rolandi E, Magnani G, Bottaro L, Barreca T.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of long-term treatment with an ergot derivative, dihydroergotoxine mesylate (hydergine) 6 mg/day, on pituitary secretion on 10 elderly patients of both sexes. Samples were drawn at 120 min intervals during a 24 h period, before and after 1 month of therapy. Serum levels of Prl, GH, LH, FSH, TSH and cortisol were measured by RIAs. Hydergine induced a significant increase in the nocturnal serum GH peak. Conversely, no appreciable changes in the pattern of the other hormones studied were found. The observed endocrine effects could be due to the chronic dopaminergic stimulation induced by hydergine.

It's interesting how many different methods we continue to learn about which boost GH w/o needing to use actual HGH. I feel like we're just beginning to uncover it all. I expect as the years go by, we'll blow the lid off of so many other interesting methods which boost our levels.

Nice work once again and good find on the Hydergine. Can't argue with this logic.

[Wise Guy]

It's interesting how many different methods we continue to learn about which boost GH w/o needing to use actual HGH. I feel like we're just beginning to uncover it all. I expect as the years go by, we'll blow the lid off of so many other interesting methods which boost our levels.

Nice work once again and good find on the Hydergine. Can't argue with this logic.

Makes good farmer's sense to me. Plus, things like hydergine/deprenyl are awesome anti aging drugs/basic, fundamental cognitive boosters, and perhaps agents everyone over 50 should be on anyways.

The fact that they could potentially be a form of GHRT as well makes them extra special and interesting.

[chilln]

This just in from Dr Crisler:

In response to:



Dr John or others: does this research suggest that people who are pre-diabetic or have elevated blood sugar or other insulin resistance issues should avoid GHRP?

Thanks for your guidance.

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/en.2009-1394v1


...Dr Crisler wrote:


The basic premise that GHRP-6 stimulates hunger, and therefore increased eating means, should an extrapolation made to human application, they are taking too much.

I use what I call the "Ghrelin Effect" to help dose the drug. Once same comes on, it means to back off from the drug dose a bit.

...except in cases where we are trying to induce hunger, of course.

[Dadnatron]

Early results from Deprenyl show that it is a powerful GHRH releaser. I suspect one of the reasons its such a strong anti aging drug is because of this (GH boosting components, anti oxident components, and neurotransmitter boosting components).

I'm a young lad and far to green to mess w/ Deprenyl, but if I was over 50, it would be part of my anti aging regiment.


Where do you get this information from WG?

From article: Inhibition of monoamine oxidase by moclobemide: effects on monoamine metabolism and secretion of anterior pituitary hormones and cortisol in healthy volunteers.
Koulu M, Scheinin M, Kaarttinen A, Kallio J, Pyykkö K, Vuorinen J, Zimmer RH.

Department of Pharmacology, University of Turku, Finland.



Moclobemide stimulated prolactin secretion
in a dose-dependent fashion. In contrast, the
secretion of hGH and cortisol was not significantly
affected. Since hGH and cortisol secretion,
as well as plasma concentrations of catecholamines
remained unaltered, it is unlikely that
the effect of moclobemide on prolactin secretion
would be a nonspecific stress effect.

Inhibition of monoamine oxidase by moclobemide: effects on monoamine metabolism and secretion of anterior pituitary hormones and cortisol in healthy volunteers.
Koulu M, Scheinin M, Kaarttinen A, Kallio J, Pyykkö K, Vuorinen J, Zimmer RH.

Department of Pharmacology, University of Turku, Finland.

1. Single oral doses (100, 200 and 300 mg) of moclobemide, a reversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase (MAO) with predominant effects on the A-type of the enzyme, were administered to eight young, healthy male volunteers in a double-blind, random-order, placebo-controlled study. The investigation was thereafter continued in an open fashion by administering a single 10 mg dose of the MAO-B inhibitor deprenyl to the same subjects. 2. Deamination of catecholamines was powerfully and dose-dependently inhibited by moclobemide, as evidenced by up to 40% decreases in the urinary excretion of deaminated catecholamine metabolites, corresponding increases in the excretion of non-deaminated, methylated metabolites, and up to 79% average decreases in the plasma concentration of 3,4-dihydroxyphenylglycol (DHPG), a deaminated metabolite of noradrenaline (NA), and up to 75% average decreases in the plasma concentrations of 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid (DOPAC), a deaminated metabolite of dopamine. The urinary excretion of 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) was only slightly reduced. In contrast, deprenyl, in a dose which almost totally inhibited MAO-B activity in blood platelets, did not appreciably affect the plasma concentrations of DHPG or DOPAC. 3. Due to the rapid, reversible, dose-dependent and MAO-A specific effect of moclobemide on plasma concentrations of DHPG, it is suggested that DHPG in plasma may be a useful indicator of the magnitude and duration of MAO-A inhibition in man. 4. Sympatho-adrenal function at rest was not significantly altered by moclobemide, as judged by unchanged plasma catecholamine concentrations and stable blood pressure and heart rate recordings. 5. Monoamine oxidase type B activity in blood platelets was slightly (less than 30%) and transiently inhibited after moclobemide. 6. The secretion of prolactin was dose-dependently stimulated by moclobemide, whereas the plasma concentrations of growth hormone (hGH) and cortisol remained unchanged.

Now sure... this is an MAOA inhibitor, but they also used Deprenyl which is an MAO-B inhibitor and found the same thing. From the text of the article... at least is 'seems' this way, although they don't directly address it as such which appears to be poor research writing rather than findings.

Where do you see that Deprenyl results in Increased HGH production?

[Wise Guy]

Where do you get this information from WG?


Now sure... this is an MAOA inhibitor, but they also used Deprenyl which is an MAO-B inhibitor and found the same thing. From the text of the article... at least is 'seems' this way, although they don't directly address it as such which appears to be poor research writing rather than findings.

Where do you see that Deprenyl results in Increased HGH production?

On the point referring to Deprenyl and increases in GH, that is a hypothesis of mine.

On the point referring to Hydergine and increases in GH, that has some solid science and studies backing it up.

Note this study - Changes of pituitary secretion after long-term treatment with hydergine, in elderly patients.

Rolandi E, Magnani G, Bottaro L, Barreca T.

The aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of long-term treatment with an ergot derivative, dihydroergotoxine mesylate (hydergine) 6 mg/day, on pituitary secretion on 10 elderly patients of both sexes. Samples were drawn at 120 min intervals during a 24 h period, before and after 1 month of therapy. Serum levels of Prl, GH, LH, FSH, TSH and cortisol were measured by RIAs. Hydergine induced a significant increase in the nocturnal serum GH peak. Conversely, no appreciable changes in the pattern of the other hormones studied were found. The observed endocrine effects could be due to the chronic dopaminergic stimulation induced by hydergine.

I would also like to note than MAO inhibition isn't the mode of action here by which nootropic agents that cross the BBB can in turn boost GH.

I do understand that one of the fundamental ways in which many of them work is started in part by MAO inhibition. However, there are many agents which inhibit MAO that do not in turn boost GH levels to any appreciable degree. Amphetamines would be a great example here.

In the hydergine study, they noted about the increase in GH but did not in turn study this phenomenon in greater length. I suspect this is because they

1. Didn't understand why
2. This wasn't the mode of study nor was it results they were looking for.

Now while there are many reasons why hydergine could potentially increase GH levels in the elderly (simple boosting of dopamine via MAO inhibition could be one), and, as the study you mentioned pointed out, boosting dopamine and/or MAO inhibition doesn't necessarily correlate with increased GH levels, at least not in any appreciable degree.

What I do suspect is going on here (again, hypothesis) is what I mentioned in this post - http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=84925&postcount=74

"We don't want GHRH chronically released all day - just prior to forming GH pulses.

However, GHRH slows down as we age - This is because of the neurons, which GHRH travels through once its been released from the pituitary somatotrophs, becomes blunted.

The reason GHRH release is blunted is because of "choke points" in the neurons. The neurons become clogged up (possibly w/ lipofuscin and other agents, causing bottle necks.

Why they get clogged up, and how to treat them, is probably the future of GHRT. I suspect that agents which work as powerful anti-oxidents and readily cross the BBB would be of service here. So would anti-lipofuscin agents.

One of the ways in which Deprenyl is such a fascinating drug is that it sort of treats this condition. It acts as a powerful anti-oxident, crosses the BBB and does its work there. It also clears lipofuscin from the brain "

This is explained in much more detail here - Selective alteration at the growth-hormone releasing-hormone nerve terminals during aging in GHRH-green fluorescent protein mice, Gérard Alonso, Aging Cell (2007) 6 , pp197–207

"GHRH appeared appropriately produced and transported to the nerve terminal, but in aging animals, it accumulated in autophagic vesicles, a subcellular compartment that does not support neuropeptide secretion"

Now remember, this is just a hypothesis of mine, but we do know that hydergine will induce a significant boost in GH levels in the elderly. The actions by which it does so I suspect are the very same actions in which deprenyl does its work as well - and, IMO, a more effective manner - By crossing the BBB, exhibiting powerful anti-oxidant and anti-lipofuscin actions, which, theoretically could clear these "choke points" out.

Just random thoughts spinning around in my head at night :bigear:

I must give credit to Dat here first and foremost - He is the one who first mentioned of these "choke points" - I in turn, with my love for nootropic agents, ran with the idea.

[Dadnatron]

Early results from Deprenyl show that it is a powerful GHRH releaser. I suspect one of the reasons its such a strong anti aging drug is because of this (GH boosting components, anti oxident components, and neurotransmitter boosting components).


Please check conjecture and opinions at the door. Otherwise please be EXTREMELY CLEAR when you are making assumptions based upon your thoughts or knowledge.

There are no absolutes... but there is absolute BULLSHIT. It is difficult enough to learn and understand what has been studied. Unexplained conjecture based upon unproven assumptions needs to be CAPPED>HIGHLIGHTED>and UNDERLINED as such to prevent others from thinking it is true.

I am sorry if this comes across TOO strong... I want it to come across JUST STRONG ENOUGH.

[Wise Guy]

Please check conjecture and opinions at the door. Otherwise please be EXTREMELY CLEAR when you are making assumptions based upon your thoughts or knowledge.

There are no absolutes... but there is absolute BULLSHIT. It is difficult enough to learn and understand what has been studied. Unexplained conjecture based upon unproven assumptions needs to be CAPPED>HIGHLIGHTED>and UNDERLINED as such to prevent others from thinking it is true.

I am sorry if this comes across TOO strong... I want it to come across JUST STRONG ENOUGH.




Early results from Deprenyl show that it is a powerful GHRH releaser. I suspect one of the reasons its such a strong anti aging drug is because of this (GH boosting components, anti oxident components, and neurotransmitter boosting components).


I think I meant to say hydergine there. I don't mind your tone - I've grown accustomed to it.

Either way, I think I have some very nice ideas :conehead:

[JRA]

Please check conjecture and opinions at the door. Otherwise please be EXTREMELY CLEAR when you are making assumptions based upon your thoughts or knowledge.

There are no absolutes... but there is absolute BULLSHIT. It is difficult enough to learn and understand what has been studied. Unexplained conjecture based upon unproven assumptions needs to be CAPPED>HIGHLIGHTED>and UNDERLINED as such to prevent others from thinking it is true.

I am sorry if this comes across TOO strong... I want it to come across JUST STRONG ENOUGH.

Regarding GHRP, Peptides information and studies and good answers, I have found a vast knowledge base on another forum by a user named Datbtrue.

[Dadnatron]

I think I meant to say hydergine there. I don't mind your tone - I've grown accustomed to it.

Either way, I think I have some very nice ideas :conehead:

yea... WG... that response by me was a little out of line. Unnecessary in the least. I apologize.

You do have some good ideas, we ALL just need to be really careful about what we 'say' 'know' and 'believe' or 'think'.

Dat has alot of knowledge, but a huge amount is theoretical, although it sounds sincere, and I believe it is. He might be a leader in the field, but it appears to be mostly because people BELIEVE he is a leader, rather than based upon reality. I have nothing against him personally, but his 'science' does not hold up. He is dangerous to the community all in all, simply because people follow him blindly and swallow his 'words' without thought. Then they refer to his OWN theories, to boost subsequent theories. However unproven.

He might be onto some things, but as can be seen about the drastic change from CJC w/wo DAC... his guidance is only as good as his last injection. You also MUST realize that everything he says, bolsters the guys who make the peptide. If he said, JuJuBees are the new 'HGH'... there are far too many people who would be running to the candy counter the next day.

[JRA]

Dat has alot of knowledge, but a huge amount is theoretical, although it sounds sincere, and I believe it is. He might be a leader in the field, but it appears to be mostly because people BELIEVE he is a leader, rather than based upon reality. I have nothing against him personally, but his 'science' does not hold up. He is dangerous to the community all in all, simply because people follow him blindly and swallow his 'words' without thought. Then they refer to his OWN theories, to boost subsequent theories. However unproven.

He might be onto some things, but as can be seen about the drastic change from CJC w/wo DAC... his guidance is only as good as his last injection. You also MUST realize that everything he says, bolsters the guys who make the peptide. If he said, JuJuBees are the new 'HGH'... there are far too many people who would be running to the candy counter the next day.

I agree, the peptide issue is complex, and not very easy to understand for most people.

Until I understand more about peptides, I have decided I will just stick to GHRP-6, 100mcg at night.

[Katzenjammer]

I agree, the peptide issue is complex, and not very easy to understand for most people.

Until I understand more about peptides, I have decided I will just stick to GHRP-6, 100mcg at night.

Yeah, but why is there any reason to believe that GHRP-6 is any safer than, say, Ipamorelin?

[Wise Guy]

yea... WG... that response by me was a little out of line. Unnecessary in the least. I apologize.

You do have some good ideas, we ALL just need to be really careful about what we 'say' 'know' and 'believe' or 'think'.

Dat has alot of knowledge, but a huge amount is theoretical, although it sounds sincere, and I believe it is. He might be a leader in the field, but it appears to be mostly because people BELIEVE he is a leader, rather than based upon reality. I have nothing against him personally, but his 'science' does not hold up. He is dangerous to the community all in all, simply because people follow him blindly and swallow his 'words' without thought. Then they refer to his OWN theories, to boost subsequent theories. However unproven.

He might be onto some things, but as can be seen about the drastic change from CJC w/wo DAC... his guidance is only as good as his last injection. You also MUST realize that everything he says, bolsters the guys who make the peptide. If he said, JuJuBees are the new 'HGH'... there are far too many people who would be running to the candy counter the next day.

No problem. In respects to Dat, I think the answers often are found in between, and I do agree w/ some of what you have said. I do find it just a very *tad* bit, well, unscrupulous, that his site sells what he sells. Still, its his board and his life, and he is free to do what he wishes. He has always been extremely, extremely nice to me and just a plethora of awesome information.

So, I give credit where credit is due. To come up w/ theories pretty much blind with practically little to no previous concepts in which to draw data from, to me says a lot about him.

What do I think? I think Dat is the smartest guy ever on the boards, even more than anyone here including Dr. John. People follow him a bit blind, but that is the nature of people - they will follow anyone who is intelligent, speaks clearly with purpose, and has a plan. Just look at how our current President got into office :patriot: Besides, the guy has saved not just me, but real Dr's like you and John years, if not decades, of research.

[Wise Guy]

Yeah, but why is there any reason to believe that GHRP-6 is any safer than, say, Ipamorelin?

There isn't. In fact, Ipamorelin is pretty much been established as not only safer, but more effective and more selective to GH release and less to other deleterious actions.

However, GHRP-6 has been in use for longer, and more people have used it, and well, its legal :rolleyes:

[JRA]

Yeah, but why is there any reason to believe that GHRP-6 is any safer than, say, Ipamorelin?

Maybe it is safer than Ipamorelin, maybe it isn't but I made the decision to go with the GHRP-6.

Like I said the whole peptide issue is very complex.

[Wise Guy]

Maybe it is safer than Ipamorelin, maybe it isn't but I made the decision to go with the GHRP-6.

Like I said the whole peptide issue is very complex.

I agree. I would much rather get a peptide from a real compounding pharmacy legally, then to order it online from a research site. Even if it is slightly inferior in some respects.

I guess for many though, they don't have that choice, and I don't judge them one bit.

[GirlyMan]

Some people would argue that a higher IGF-1 levels lead to decreased longevity.

Some posit that the longevity effects observed with metformin supplementation (in rodents only, so far as I know) are due to its inhibitiory effects on those metabolic conversions which lead to IGF-1.


I think I meant to say hydergine there.
I can't help not to keep looking at this.

[Katzenjammer]

So Dr. Crisler theoretically could prescribe Ipamorelin? Has anyone ever broached the issue with him?

[Wise Guy]

Lots of errors here


Not by Dr Crisler.



Again, and I'm sure Dr John would readily agree here, Dat is by far much, much more informed on the intricies of peptides. I've got most of my research on Ipamorelin from him. Dat has noted numerous times about how, in many aspects, Ipamorelin to be a much better choice. I'll take that, and the research done points exactly to that as well.



And ipmorelin is equally as "legal" as GHRP-6, ie: both are just research chemicals, neither of which has been approved by the FDA for use as therapy in any situation.

Again, wrong here. GHRP-6 IS legally FDA approved, and can be prescribed for off lable use by any physician in the USA. Ipamorelin is not.



What makes a research chemical "legally useable" to a user, is the prescription from a doctor, and its use in accordance with the doctor's prescription and therapy advice.

No. Physicians can legally prescribe medicines which are FDA approved for off label use and routinely do so with impunity.

They cannot prescribe research chemicals like Mod GRF 1-29, GHRP-2 or Ipamorelin.

I'd like to note that it has been interesting (and fullfilling I might add) that you have since done a 180 degree change on your stance regarding peptides. Just last year you pretty much deemed them useless for the older population. :001_smile:

[Wise Guy]

So Dr. Crisler theoretically could prescribe Ipamorelin? Has anyone ever broached the issue with him?

No he cannot. Chilln is mis-informed here

[Dr. John Crisler]

Lots of errors here



Again, and I'm sure Dr John would readily agree here, Dat is by far much, much more informed on the intricies of peptides. I've got most of my research on Ipamorelin from him. Dat has noted numerous times about how, in many aspects, Ipamorelin to be a much better choice. I'll take that, and the research done points exactly to that as well.



Again, wrong here. GHRP-6 IS legally FDA approved, and can be prescribed for off lable use by any physician in the USA. Ipamorelin is not.



No. Physicians can legally prescribe medicines which are FDA approved for off label use and routinely do so with impunity.

They cannot prescribe research chemicals like Mod GRF 1-29, GHRP-2 or Ipamorelin. I'd like to note that it has been interesting (and fullfilling I might add) that you have since done a 180 degree change on your stance regarding peptides. Just last year you pretty much deemed them useless for the older population. :001_smile:GHRP-2, GHRP-6 are listed as supplements. Therefore we can use them.

The others are not. Therefore we may not. Case closed.

[Dr. John Crisler]

yea... WG... that response by me was a little out of line. Unnecessary in the least. I apologize.

You do have some good ideas, we ALL just need to be really careful about what we 'say' 'know' and 'believe' or 'think'.

Dat has alot of knowledge, but a huge amount is theoretical, although it sounds sincere, and I believe it is. He might be a leader in the field, but it appears to be mostly because people BELIEVE he is a leader, rather than based upon reality. I have nothing against him personally, but his 'science' does not hold up. He is dangerous to the community all in all, simply because people follow him blindly and swallow his 'words' without thought. Then they refer to his OWN theories, to boost subsequent theories. However unproven.

He might be onto some things, but as can be seen about the drastic change from CJC w/wo DAC... his guidance is only as good as his last injection. You also MUST realize that everything he says, bolsters the guys who make the peptide. If he said, JuJuBees are the new 'HGH'... there are far too many people who would be running to the candy counter the next day.He has put a ton of information together, and shared with all. For that I am very thankful. He has personally saved me, well, I probably would have never gotten to all the studies and so forth he has provided.

Your caveat is wise, and true for all. It is very difficult to separate the BS from what we read when someone sounds like they know what they are talking about. dat would be the first to tell you that.

Having said that, it is also true dat has made some errors simply because what we see as mechanism well proven by scientific studies (what they are best for, IMPO) does not always apply to living breathing biological systems (and specifically, HUMAN living, breathing biological systems; moreso, otherwise healthy adult male living, breathing biological systems). dat would also be the first to tell you that. He is not, after all, trained as a clinician. But when the molecular biologist and physician (especially a simple country doctor who watches the barn yard all day) intersect, THAT is where things really get moved along. So the hours I have spent reading what he has chosen to freely share with all have been night-and-day in my evolution on this topic. For that I am more thankful than words can say.

[BigJimcalhoun]

GHRP-2, GHRP-6 are listed as supplements. Therefore we can use them.
I was not aware that GHRP-2 can be prescribed, that sounds really cool.

[JRA]

What was this thread about, again?

Are all the peptides like GHRP-6 sourced from China then repackaged here in the US?

[Dr. John Crisler]

dat is also very interesting because he is such an amazing intellect (I, in contrast, am but a simple country doctor--and not a particularly bright one at that). He wrote something some time ago, on a completely unrelated subject, that came back to me, in a poignant manner, just a few days ago.

From what I remember, dat is teaching himself to speak French. He posted how learning other languages makes one really think about how humans communicate.

Well, I am now struggling to teach myself Spanish. I need it for the coming year, as I will be hosting a medical workshop in Mexico City in the Fall. It occurred to me how ideas turn to spoken word in very different ways sometimes (Spanish just makes more sense, if THAT makes any sense) by the two languages. I remembered dat posting what he did. That was cool.

Gotta have a microbrew with that dude one of these days.

[theedaddy]

Feeling better, but its impossible to say if its due to GHRH/GHRP, cause I'm taking about 25 supplements along.


I mean if I eat old moldy honey nut cheerios for weeks straightand feel GREAT, is reason why cheerios?

the mind is amazing, beyond amazing.

[wondering]

As you get closer to the end of your journey, you really need to change only one thing at a time.



Feeling better, but its impossible to say if its due to GHRH/GHRP, cause I'm taking about 25 supplements along.


I mean if I eat old moldy honey nut cheerios for weeks straightand feel GREAT, is reason why cheerios?

the mind is amazing, beyond amazing.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Feeling better, but its impossible to say if its due to GHRH/GHRP, cause I'm taking about 25 supplements along.


I mean if I eat old moldy honey nut cheerios for weeks straightand feel GREAT, is reason why cheerios?

the mind is amazing, beyond amazing.You aren't supposed to discuss specifics of your medical treatment here.

[Katzenjammer]

You aren't supposed to discuss specifics of your medical treatment here.

LOL! Truly! :cheers2:

[DFW Guy]

i look forward to reading Dat's comments / advice each day. DatBTrue :thumbup:

[BigJimcalhoun]

Anyone hear of GHRP-2 being prescribed by a medical pratictioner?

[cpeil2]

My arms and legs are covered with a blotchy, red rash that itches only slightly. I just reconstituted a new vial of GHRP-6 and thus am thinking this could be the cause. Anybody else experienced such?

[Dr. John Crisler]

I just don't think you need Sermorelin.

I put a lot of guys on Sermorelin. As you all know, the labs--and patient subjective report--came back quite disappointing. By the time we got a decent bump in IGF-1, cost became prohibitive.

So then I added in GHRP-6 to the Sermorelin. Numbers went up. More importantly, my guys raved about how they felt on the combo.

In a few who were having financial issues, I then dropped the Sermorelin. Guess what? No big drop in IGF-1, OR subjective report.

Given the expense of Sermorelin, compared to GHRP-6, it's cheaper--and more effective--to simply increase the GHRP-6. I start at 100mcgs SC qhs. Then to 150mcgs, then 200mcgs per shot (not often), subQ, right before bed.

IMPO, Sermorelin is dead. Dead as dead.

The limiting factor in increasing GHRP-6 dose is what I call "The Ghrelin Effect". Nearly everyone can take 100mcgs. Some can take much more than that, without disappearing for the day, standing in front of their refrigerators.

Some can take only 80mcgs at a time. Even in a single night time dose.

Also, I am seeing some powerful desensitization from this stuff--this phenomenon is well known with secretogogues. I have seen guys who did better (on IGF-1) on 100mcgs QD than 200 per shot, or 100mcgs BID. So, I think many on the bodybuilding boards are actually LOWERING GH production by taking more and more. They should run iGF-1's to make sure.

But a problem with that is many do not elevate IGF-1 proportionately to increased GH production. This is why I always run Fasting Insulin (besides standardization) along with IGF-1 (and IGFBP-3). When there is no increase in IGF-1, it's almost always accompanied by a low FI. you need insulin to make IGF-1 under liver stimulation by GH. Just as with estrogen, range is important (not too much, nor too little).

But even in those cases many of these guys say they "wouldn't be without it". Their subjective report is just that big.

One way to be sure is to run the 24 hour urine GH from Rhein. The Belgian test they offer is the only one I trust.

The other day I saw a 167 point jump in IGF-1 from 100mcgs GHRP-6 qhs.

Dr. Richard Walker's work with Sermorelin produced much more modest elevations in IGF-1. I am not content with same.

Right now I am increasing GHRP-6 at their nightime dose, in order to synchronize with the body. Morning IGF-1 assay is then standardized.

[Dr. John Crisler]

JRA,

It is my understanding that you want to agonize the naturally occurring night time pulse of GH that occurs, generally 30-60 min into sleep, and lasts 3 hours.

There is some data out there that shows this pulse sort of sets itself to a circadian rhythm - similar to how women will have menstrual cycles on a regular time regulated by hormones, this pulse sort of acts in a similar manner.

Meaning your body gets used to you going to bed at say 11pm......And will pulse GH accordingly, but only if your in slow wave sleep. If your awake, all bets are off. Thus, this is why we often feel tired on Saturdays even if we slept 8 hours, if we stayed up late and didn't adhere to a regular schedule.

So its not necessarily what time you go to bed, but more of staying on a regular schedule and sleeping in as dark of an environment as possible. This is the highest pulse of GH which occurs in men.

Other small pulses occur throughout the day, especially PWO

Ideally, if your looking to add a second dosage of peptides or a peptide/analog combo, this would be ideal for the second dosage.

IMO though, I would imagine that 2 a day injects would be intrusive after awhile, but would be doable for cycling purposes (say 4-6 weeks)Take your melatonin!

[BigJimcalhoun]

But a problem with that is many do not elevate IGF-1 proportionately to increased GH production. This is why I always run Fasting Insulin (besides standardization) along with IGF-1 (and IGFBP-3). When there is no increase in IGF-1, it's almost always accompanied by a low FI. you need insulin to make IGF-1 under liver stimulation by GH. Just as with estrogen, range is important (not too much, nor too little).

So if you have low FI, do you need to eat after the shot?

[Dr. John Crisler]

So if you have low FI, do you need to eat after the shot?
Insulin is important in utilization of GH, but we must remember what we are measuring is IGF-1 in the blood, produced by the liver, as "biomarker' for clinical response. But there is also peripheral production as well. What that all amounts to is something I am still learning about.

What I am saying is because IGF-1 doesn't necessarily go up in these patients does not mean they are not producing more GH (again, a 24 hour urine GH assay will paing the true picture).

And I cannot get myself to tell guys to crap up their diet in order to increase Fasting Insulin.

[BigJimcalhoun]

You don't have to tell us, we can do it all on our own. I need to quit going to work for employers who offer free soda and candy bars.

[JRA]

Take your melatonin!

I have found the GHRP-6 right before bed time gives me a better nights sleep than when I was taking melatonin.

I don't know why.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I have found the GHRP-6 right before bed time gives me a better nights sleep than when I was taking melatonin.

I don't know why.Melatonin is important for GH production.

[Jeffrey J]

When I take my ghrp-6 to early in the evening it just knocks me out. While other times it makes me space out but not as sleepy.
Does this make sense? I'm taking 100mcg per day a few hours after eating.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Let's take a closer look at a commonly employed study.

Anyone notice anything strange about this? HINT: look at the third graph.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Yes. Me. I ran only GHRP-6. Nothing else, for three months. Pharma grade from AnewRx. Initially 100 mcg/day. Upped to 200 mcg/day after 2 months.

As I mentioned before, it did nothing for me. Actually, after 2 months my libido tanked, and I worried that the GHRP-6 might be responsible, since the same happened to some other guys on GHRP-6. In any case, this scared me enough that I stopped. Your mileage may vary.
I need to know more about this.

[Dr. John Crisler]

This isn't quite true. Although I agree that the saturation dose is approximately 1mcg/kg, that is the saturation dose in which you get a relative linear increase in output along with dosing. ie doubling the dose from 50 - 100mcg gives you almost twice as much HGH release. However, at 100mcg saturation of the receptors is reached and doses above this no longer have a linear effect. HOWEVER you will still get a relative increase up to 400mcg. At which the difference from 400 - 500 is negligable. Changing from 100 - 200 increases the effective HGH output approximately 30% MORE HGH output... a far cry from the 100% increase moving from a 50 - 100mcg dose obtains.

There becomes a 'worth it' phase in which the amount of injectable is no longer worth the output achieved. Moving from 100mcg to 200mcg COSTS twice as much however is only giving you 30% efficacy. And we must remember... you could dump a gallon of HGH into your body all at once... and it wouldn't have a 'gallons' worth of effect on you. Your body can only utilize hormones on a scale basis. There is a point where you don't have enough... there is a sweet point... there is a sweetpoint+... and there is a pissing it out the door or screwing up everything else point.

If your body cannot appropriately utilize the amount of HGH which is achieved by 200mcg, then you are wasting your peptide. The real issue is that there have been no studies to date which show a 'utilization curve' for HGH... so the standard thinking remains GIVE/MAKE AS MUCH AS YOU CAN! We don't do that with Testosterone... but I don't think we have quite gotten to the understanding of HGH at this point.
Everyone is different. I have seen some who got nothing until 150mcgs. Average size men.

[Dr. John Crisler]

This is my biggest issue with peptides... NO ONE... or very few... are actually CHECKING their numbers to determine efficacy of dosing. Also, there is no data which shows true benefit from an 'amount or level' of GH. So we are all shooting in the dark, hoping for something because it 'makes sense' but knowing absolutely NOTHING about the drugs in reality.

HOW MUCH GH can a body actually use? IS it the GH itself, or a metabolite or perhaps secondary hormone ie IGF-1? We use IGF-1 to evaluate GH efficacy, however, we don't know exactly what is doing the 'work we want' and what is just increasing our chances for retinopathy.

Dat puts alot of heat into pulsation as being key. However, there is no data that in humans, pulsation is beneficial (that I have been able to find) however, there is a rat study from 1997 which talks about it. We don't actually know the amount of IFG-1 produced via pulsation, however we DO know that IGF-1 is produced due to the BASAL GH level NOT the pulsation level. So... if we are trying to gain muscle and lose fat, what exactly is occurring at the working end of the equation of

^GH -> (????) = muscle gain and fat loss

I have seen every permutation of the metabolites used in some form or another and one of the MOST prevalent is IGF-1 at the local level. IGF-1 locally can be put there in one of 2 ways, either through vascular system, ie systemic diffusion via blood or via local production. Since the LARGEST SOURCE of IGF-1 is in the liver and the liver has no real use for it, it stands reasonable that the circulatory levels have meaning. However, we don't KNOW what meaning they have and how much is 'beneficial' and how much is 'too much' or if there is such a thing.

There are so many holes in GH understanding. There are people who believe they understand what is going on, based upon conjecture via 10 year old research. However, I am skeptical about what is really occuring. One thing we have found is that the human body likes balance. When we go messing with it very much, we can really screw it up.I'm sitting on hundreds of labs.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Here is a quote from Dat:

"Hexarelin is the strongest of the GHS peptides. It also induces higher amounts of cortisol & prolactin then the other peptides. It may (according to one comparison study) desensitize quicker. GHRP-2 is a little less strong with less impact on cortisol & prolactin. GHRP-6 has very little impact on cortisol & prolactin (although it is a little elevated above 1mcg/kg dosing) and is a little less stronger than GHRP-2. "

http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/peptides-growth-factors/37381-dats-cjc-1295-ghrp-6-basic-guides-3.html
From what I'm reading here, it can still have an impact on cortisol and prolactin, and as I said earlier, not huge and can be transient.The single greatest thread in the history of message boards.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Dr Mark L Gordon: Somatopause - Nuances and Treatment Strategies

http://digivision.instatapes.com.s3.amazonaws.com/gordon/player.HTM

:thumbup1:

So tempting to buy the series, but $239 :(Dr. Gordon and I work very closely together. He's like the big brother I never had.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Excellent points Doc.

Dat did touch on what you are talking about extensively - I have to go back into his work again. But I remember him specifically mentioning something about IGF-1 levels.

He specifically noted that serum IGF-1 numbers and IGF-1 being expressed on a cellular level (and initiating repairs/paracrine actions) are two different things.

Meaning, one's serum IGF-1 level isn't linear with IGF-1 being expressed locally.

Not only that, a 3 hour pulse in GH and IGF-1 simply isn't going to show up much on a serum IGF-1 test.

The real marker would be to measure it over 24 hours.

Now if you aren't noticing anything appreciable there, I can see the issues.

I just sent in my Rheins kit for 24 hour steroid and GH analysis. I'm totally natural right now. Should be interesting :seeya:You have to understand the concept of "reference range". While IGF-1 may be dropping after its induced peak (induced at the same time nature does), its drop is predictable (and one pulse per GHRP-6 shot).

Also, remember the ternary complex formed with ALS and IGFBP-3 dramatically extends the efective half-life of IGF-1.

[Dr. John Crisler]

How do we know that this is the case, though? Without a specific study I worry that we may just be guessing...

B.t.w., for completeness I cite the study on Ghrelin and LH again.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/92/8/3202Hunger reduces testosterone production. No news there.

Anyone heard of "The HCG Diet"?

[Dr. John Crisler]

Actually, I've found that the biggest reason why GHRP's of any sort work as well as they do -- is their ability to inhibit somatostatin (which tends to block or at least hinder GH Release).

Somatostatin increases more and more as we age. So getting this somatostatin DOWN is a big chunk of the battle out of the way.
PLUS, it upregulates its own receptor.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Yeah, at the time I wasn't considering Ipa a GHRP. Probably because I had just read Dat say it's differentiated from GHRP-6 & GHRP-2 in that it's smaller, a pentapeptide I think is what it is. It's structure has 5 components and not six. It's more technical than that I think, but that's what I got out of it.There are also little bitty pieces that do things. Not all things, but some things.

[Dr. John Crisler]

No, I don't believe this is correct. I am not aware of any evidence that GHRPs inhibit somatostatin.They inhibit Somatostatin production from hypothalamus.

[Dr. John Crisler]

To all out there......I messed up and on my last tewo bottles of GHRP6, I accidentally injected 1ML of solution instead of 3. I realized today when I was thinking to myself that these botlles are going a lot quicker than usual. I re-read the instructions and found out I was dosing incorrectly. That being said, occasionally I would miss a morning shot so I woul take 20IU at night......That is 6 times the dose that was prescribed. Here are my concerns?

Did I screw up my treatment with Dr. J?

I am assuming I am not going to die....because I am still typing right now.

Should I call him to do VOV on this or just resume my normal doses?

Finally for yopu really smart people on here, let me know what taking exessive amounts will do to me.

Thanks in advance
Well, yes, you should report this to me. How am I supposed to take care of you otherwise?

Also, we are collecting data. Yours needs to be looked at separately. Think of the children!

[Dr. John Crisler]

You'll be fine at 600mcg.

Your not going to die. Your wallet will just be a little lighter.

Many have super dosed it as well. Its not more effective to do so.In fact, it may shut you right down!

[Dr. John Crisler]

There is no doubt Secretropin increased my IGF-1 Levels. Moving from 188 -> 258 (86-220) in 2 months with NO other supplementation of anything other than vitamin and zinc. However, I am not sold on the product. It might have just been me, but immediately upon beginning Secretropin, my testosterone level began decreasing substantially. From 557 -> 329 during those same 2 months if IGF-1 increase. Now... admittadly I have found that I have Hashimoto's, which could certainly be the cause I suspect, however, it is quite strange that my labs changed SO DRAMATICALLY ONLY AFTER I began Secretropin. Whether my body was stressed by the hypothyroidism and the Secretropin merely 'uncovered' the problem by bumping GH production causing the poorly balanced system to become 'unbalanced' or whether there were untoward effects of Secretropin on my pituitary which are 'unknown'. I don't know.

If I get my Testosterone and thyroid functions optimized I might try it again and see if things go out of whack.

It is extremely easy to take. 2 sprays under the tongue in the morning 4-6 at night. Hardest thing is doing it 30 minutes before you eat or drink ANYTHING.Those really are the same numbers, given pulsatility.

IF you had 24 hour urines, it would be different.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Because its not as good obviously.

The convenience is worth it for the short duration. Its a trade off. A bit less effective is worth the trade off of not having to travel w/ peptides.

Script only, their website, yes its a spray.

I like a good Pinot......However, if I'm at a friends, and all they have is Merlot, obviously not as good, but its worth the trade off (versus having to drive to the store and buy a bottle)
There is no such thing as a good pinot.

[Dr. John Crisler]

with obama care i can get it for free.:biggrin:everything is free now!!!

[Dr. John Crisler]

Do you really think so? I had the idea that it was something that Dr. Gordon cooked up, tested informally and brought to market. That's not to say it doesn't work or that Dr. Gordon isn't a smart guy.Thake it from me, he's got a bundle into it.

[Dr. John Crisler]

yes... It is a 'proprietary blend' of otc components suspended in a 'liposomal' delivery system.

If you had the components... You could simply put them under your tongue i suspect. I doubt ratios are too important. And given the relatively low dose in the spray, you could probably overcome the 'liposomal delivery' system by sheer dosage.uh huh.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Please check conjecture and opinions at the door. Otherwise please be EXTREMELY CLEAR when you are making assumptions based upon your thoughts or knowledge.

There are no absolutes... but there is absolute BULLSHIT. It is difficult enough to learn and understand what has been studied. Unexplained conjecture based upon unproven assumptions needs to be CAPPED>HIGHLIGHTED>and UNDERLINED as such to prevent others from thinking it is true.

I am sorry if this comes across TOO strong... I want it to come across JUST STRONG ENOUGH.Word.

[Dr. John Crisler]

yea... WG... that response by me was a little out of line. Unnecessary in the least. I apologize.

You do have some good ideas, we ALL just need to be really careful about what we 'say' 'know' and 'believe' or 'think'.

Dat has alot of knowledge, but a huge amount is theoretical, although it sounds sincere, and I believe it is. He might be a leader in the field, but it appears to be mostly because people BELIEVE he is a leader, rather than based upon reality. I have nothing against him personally, but his 'science' does not hold up. He is dangerous to the community all in all, simply because people follow him blindly and swallow his 'words' without thought. Then they refer to his OWN theories, to boost subsequent theories. However unproven.

He might be onto some things, but as can be seen about the drastic change from CJC w/wo DAC... his guidance is only as good as his last injection. You also MUST realize that everything he says, bolsters the guys who make the peptide. If he said, JuJuBees are the new 'HGH'... there are far too many people who would be running to the candy counter the next day.No one has done more to collect information on these topics than dat. For that, I am immensely thankful. He doesn't need to spend all that time answering other people's questions (I do; but that is my own emotional morbidity LOL).

I do think things get a bit out of hand, however, when strictly relying upon studies, which may--or may not!--play out in actual clinical experience. We have a saying around Anti-Aging Medicine: "Evidence-based medicine isn't.
"

It as important to evaluate what a study does not say, as what it correctly does. It's also imprtant to remember that everyone is out to sell something. Often these studies illustrate a given mechanism (what they are best for IMPO), but then extrapolate to all manner of unwarranted conclusions. Tricks and games with crunching numbers ("Lies, damn lies, statistics"), sometimes extreme personal bias, greed for notoriety, etc. all risk us down the wrong path.

You guys would be as scared as I am if you knew most of medicine is practiced based merely upon the titles of scientific studies. They don't even read and evaluate the abstract, much less the entire body of the work (which then may not prove the conclusion in any rational matter).

I see studies every week which completely contradict our common clinical experiences. It's like they come from a different world. And I am speaking of more than those "proving" global warming. LOL

[Dr. John Crisler]

yea... WG... that response by me was a little out of line. Unnecessary in the least. I apologize.

You do have some good ideas, we ALL just need to be really careful about what we 'say' 'know' and 'believe' or 'think'.

Dat has alot of knowledge, but a huge amount is theoretical, although it sounds sincere, and I believe it is. He might be a leader in the field, but it appears to be mostly because people BELIEVE he is a leader, rather than based upon reality. I have nothing against him personally, but his 'science' does not hold up. He is dangerous to the community all in all, simply because people follow him blindly and swallow his 'words' without thought. Then they refer to his OWN theories, to boost subsequent theories. However unproven.

He might be onto some things, but as can be seen about the drastic change from CJC w/wo DAC... his guidance is only as good as his last injection. You also MUST realize that everything he says, bolsters the guys who make the peptide. If he said, JuJuBees are the new 'HGH'... there are far too many people who would be running to the candy counter the next day.
I have no problem completely reversing myself once evidence says I should.

It's a sign of integrity.

[Dr. John Crisler]

No problem. In respects to Dat, I think the answers often are found in between, and I do agree w/ some of what you have said. I do find it just a very *tad* bit, well, unscrupulous, that his site sells what he sells. Still, its his board and his life, and he is free to do what he wishes. He has always been extremely, extremely nice to me and just a plethora of awesome information.

So, I give credit where credit is due. To come up w/ theories pretty much blind with practically little to no previous concepts in which to draw data from, to me says a lot about him.

What do I think? I think Dat is the smartest guy ever on the boards, even more than anyone here including Dr. John. People follow him a bit blind, but that is the nature of people - they will follow anyone who is intelligent, speaks clearly with purpose, and has a plan. Just look at how our current President got into office :patriot: Besides, the guy has saved not just me, but real Dr's like you and John years, if not decades, of research.I'm just a simple country doctor; hardly an intellectual.

[Dr. John Crisler]

No problem. In respects to Dat, I think the answers often are found in between, and I do agree w/ some of what you have said. I do find it just a very *tad* bit, well, unscrupulous, that his site sells what he sells. Still, its his board and his life, and he is free to do what he wishes. He has always been extremely, extremely nice to me and just a plethora of awesome information.

So, I give credit where credit is due. To come up w/ theories pretty much blind with practically little to no previous concepts in which to draw data from, to me says a lot about him.

What do I think? I think Dat is the smartest guy ever on the boards, even more than anyone here including Dr. John. People follow him a bit blind, but that is the nature of people - they will follow anyone who is intelligent, speaks clearly with purpose, and has a plan. Just look at how our current President got into office :patriot: Besides, the guy has saved not just me, but real Dr's like you and John years, if not decades, of research.Oh, please.

When did any of THAT start?

[cpeil2]

Thake it from me, he's got a bundle into it.


Oh, I don't doubt that, but I'm guessing 5 or 6 figures rather than the 8 or 9 figures usually involved in developing and testing a pharmaceutical.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Oh, I don't doubt that, but I'm guessing 5 or 6 figures rather than the 8 or 9 figures usually involved in developing and testing a pharmaceutical."Thake" it from me, he didn't spend hundreds of millions.

LOL

[crazycrew]

we are collecting data. Think of the children!

Need any volunteers? willing to traval. :driving: pick me pick me :seeya:

[seekonk]

I have found the GHRP-6 right before bed time gives me a better nights sleep than when I was taking melatonin.

I don't know why.

God I wish it did that for me! But then melatonin does nothing for me either... :angry:

[seekonk]

Why would GHRP-6 induce or improve sleep?

[Wise Guy]

Let's take a closer look at a commonly employed study.

Anyone notice anything strange about this? HINT: look at the third graph.

That is showing the 3 hour pulse is higher in older gents versus the younger ones.

Is that a graph of GH levels post peptide use?

[Wise Guy]

There are also little bitty pieces that do things. Not all things, but some things.

Yea, this is especially true when analyzing the analogs (GRF)

When you modify them (say, from the original 44 peptide chain) that can modify how it is expressed in the body. The 29th chain (I believe its alanine) is weak, and it degrades quickly - hence why the original GRF 1-44 (which is commonly referred to as original sermorelin, the kind you used to prescribe) didn't work well (at least w/ respects to quantitative results, i.e. IGF-1)

However, if you strengthen this amino acid at this position, it will also resist degrading - and hence the longer half life - thus we now have Mod GRF 1-29 ( the idea was those next couple aminos - #30 - 33 I think, where also partially responsible for the quick degrading - thus they were removed) This modified analog has a much longer half life and will in turn crank out GHRH for a much longer period of time.

But, there is also the issue that the natural GRF the body produces is identical to the non modified GRF 1-44. The idea is that its possible those last 15 aminos do things we don't quite understand yet. So perhaps the next generation GRF analog will be modified GRF 1-44, identical to the original sermorelin, but modified at those chains it needs (specifically 29th and 44th), but will still retain all 44 amino acids.

From what I understand that is. I'm no molecular biologist - far from it - I'm an MBA guy w/ a good memory :rofl:

[Wise Guy]

Why would GHRP-6 induce or improve sleep?

Because slow wave sleep and GH levels pretty much follow eachother on a linear plane.

From Dat

I've tried to emphasize that Slow Wave Sleep (SW) and Growth Hormone (GH) are not merely positively correlated but are intricately bound together such that a change in one leads to a change in the other. That is why from the start I have attempted to underscore that a pre-bed dose of Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) & Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide 6 (GHRP-6) will increase that vital period of sleep known as Slow Wave Sleep which has restorative benefits beyond amplified GH release.

The following study is fascinating for all of us because it reveals that somatopause begins dramatically between age 25 and 35. The following study published in the prestigious Journal of the American Medical Association is well worth examining.

The chronology of aging of GH secretion follows a pattern remarkably similar to that of SW sleep. Thus, in men, the so-called "somatopause" occurs early in adulthood, between age 25 and 35 years, an age range that corresponds to the human life expectancy before the development of modern civilization and is essentially completed by the end of the fourth decade.

Our analyses further indicate that reduced amounts of SW sleep, independent of age, are partly responsible for reduced GH secretion in midlife and late life. That this correlative evidence reflects a common mechanism underlying SW sleep generation and GH release rather than an indirect association is supported by 2 studies that have shown that pharmacological enhancement of SW sleep results in increased GH release. - Age-Related Changes in Slow Wave Sleep and REM Sleep and Relationship With Growth Hormone and Cortisol Levels in Healthy Men, Eve Van Cauter, PhD; Rachel Leproult, MS; Laurence Plat, MD,JAMA. 2000;284:861-868

The objective of the study was, to determine the chronology of age-related changes in sleep duration and quality (sleep stages) in healthy men and whether concomitant alterations occur in GH and cortisol levels.

They combined data from a series of studies conducted between 1985 and 1999 at 4 laboratories which examined 149 healthy men, aged 16 to 83 years, with a mean (SD) body mass index of 24.1 (2.3) kg/m2, without sleep complaints or histories of endocrine, psychiatric, or sleep disorders.

They created twenty-four–hour profiles of plasma GH and cortisol levels and polygraphic sleep recordings and found the following results

[Katzenjammer]

For those who are also taking HCG and GHRP...are you "double dipping" the syringe?

I was wondering what other people are doing; the reason being: Dat warned against pre-loading mulitiple peptides, as we don't know whether those peptides might alter when combined for more than a few hours.

But ^^ wouldn't that also be true for minute amounts of peptide that must be transferred when "double dipping"?

[JRA]

For those who are also taking HCG and GHRP...are you "double dipping" the syringe?

I was wondering what other people are doing; the reason being: Dat warned against pre-loading mulitiple peptides, as we don't know whether those peptides might alter when combined for more than a few hours.

But ^^ wouldn't that also be true for minute amounts of peptide that must be transferred when "double dipping"?

I take the HCG in the morning and my GHRP-6 at night, so I use two new syringes.

[Dadnatron]

I'm sitting on hundreds of labs.

Please... put that information out for us to see. I would love to see actual numbers pre and post.

[Dadnatron]

There is no such thing as a good pinot.

Ohhh..... the humanity!

[Dadnatron]

I have no problem completely reversing myself once evidence says I should.

It's a sign of integrity.

I agree completely. However, the voracity in which the previous statements are made should be tempered by the reality of what is understood and known. And theory should not be touted as fact simply because a diagram and arrows 'show it to be true'.

"Boom doses"... come on... Did you read about that and then read about how many people BEGAN doing them as well?

[Dadnatron]

Those really are the same numbers, given pulsatility.

IF you had 24 hour urines, it would be different.

All testosterone markers decreased during this time. Total T, Free T, Bioavailable.

Pulsitility is certainly possible... but there was clear linear progression of falling levels during the 3 months, with labs drawn on the same day of the week between 7-8am.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I agree completely. However, the voracity in which the previous statements are made should be tempered by the reality of what is understood and known. And theory should not be touted as fact simply because a diagram and arrows 'show it to be true'.

"Boom doses"... come on... Did you read about that and then read about how many people BEGAN doing them as well?I haven't heard the phrase before. What is it?

[seekonk]

Because slow wave sleep and GH levels pretty much follow each other on a linear plane.


Well, unfortunately GHRP keeps me awake all night. So either

- GHRP does not raise my GH, or
- Raising my GH does not increase my slow wave sleep, or
- Dat's theory is wrong. This is most likely IMO. There might indeed be an association between GH and sleep, but it is probably not a causative relationship.

[Katzenjammer]

Well, unfortunately GHRP keeps me awake all night. So either

- GHRP does not raise my GH, or
- Raising my GH does not increase my slow wave sleep.

OR, GHRP is bumping up your dopamine? That may be a side effect for you?

[seekonk]

OR, GHRP is bumping up your dopamine? That may be a side effect for you?

I wish! But no, I don't feel good from it.

[Katzenjammer]

I wish! But no, I don't feel good from it.

Yeah, but you know - neurotransmitters are bewilderingly complex; they effect each other, etc; who knows how and which ones exactly are being activated.

[Dadnatron]

I haven't heard the phrase before. What is it?

Dat was taking 2g of either or both GHRH/GHRP at a TIME. 2grams... an entire VIAL! Just to see what would happen. Then as he talked about it... others on the board began doing it. He calls it 'Boom doses'. It is this type of thing which gives me significant pause when thinking about everything else he states. I don't discount it (the other things) out of hand... however, I do question it. If he truly understands the idea of receptor saturation... if he truly understands feedback... then a reasonable 'researcher/practitioner' would recognize that this form of administration makes no sense. And since most things he discusses is based purely upon theory and basic biochem then even attempting this is ludicrous.

[cpeil2]

Are all the peptides like GHRP-6 sourced from China then repackaged here in the US?


I'm also curious about the ultimate source of all of the GHRP-6 out there.


My arms and legs are covered with a blotchy, red rash that itches only slightly. I just reconstituted a new vial of GHRP-6 and thus am thinking this could be the cause. Anybody else experienced such?


I'm convinced I got a drug rash from GHRP-6. Yet, I have used it for months without problem. When I developed the rash, I had just cracked a new vial, so I am wondering if the problem was specific to that lot. If this is the case, I am wondering if I would have the same problem from another lot. I am also wondering if getting GHRP-6 from a different source would just be a waste of time and money because it all comes from the same ultimate source.

It is also possible, I suppose, that I developed a sensitivity to GHRP-6 after continued use and I will just have to add it to the long list of meds that I am already allergic to.

[mmg44]

Dat was taking 2g of either or both GHRH/GHRP at a TIME. 2grams... an entire VIAL! Just to see what would happen. Then as he talked about it... others on the board began doing it. He calls it 'Boom doses'. It is this type of thing which gives me significant pause when thinking about everything else he states. I don't discount it (the other things) out of hand... however, I do question it. If he truly understands the idea of receptor saturation... if he truly understands feedback... then a reasonable 'researcher/practitioner' would recognize that this form of administration makes no sense. And since most things he discusses is based purely upon theory and basic biochem then even attempting this is ludicrous.

While I agree somewhat with what you are saying on this thread and that we all should be prudent about what we put into our bodies, I also have seen you post(I cant remember if it was a study or not) something about using cholesterol lowering drugs as preventative medicine. To me this is even more dangerous. I have seen these drugs cause debilitating side effects for people who needed them as opposed to healthy people just using them as preventative medicine, which I feel is insane. So again, while I somewhat agree with your assertions here, I think you need to practice what you preach a little bit. Or perhaps touting something like the cholesterol med is okay because its "mainstream"?

[Dadnatron]

While I agree somewhat with what you are saying on this thread and that we all should be prudent about what we put into our bodies, I also have seen you post(I cant remember if it was a study or not) something about using cholesterol lowering drugs as preventative medicine. To me this is even more dangerous. I have seen these drugs cause debilitating side effects for people who needed them as opposed to healthy people just using them as preventative medicine, which I feel is insane. So again, while I somewhat agree with your assertions here, I think you need to practice what you preach a little bit. Or perhaps touting something like the cholesterol med is okay because its "mainstream"?

Heh... I simply posted an article on the FDAs choice to rewrite the indications for using Cholesterol reducing drugs as an 'anti-aging' medication. I made no indication one way or the other as to its validity. Because I have no specific knowledge one way or the other. When I don't KNOW something I keep quiet. When I believe but cannot prove something, I will say as much. When I absolutely KNOW something... I will shout it from the rooftops. When I am wrong... I will shout THAT from all places.

That post was merely information...

[mmg44]

Heh... I simply posted an article on the FDAs choice to rewrite the indications for using Cholesterol reducing drugs as an 'anti-aging' medication. I made no indication one way or the other as to its validity. Because I have no specific knowledge one way or the other. When I don't KNOW something I keep quiet. When I believe but cannot prove something, I will say as much. When I absolutely KNOW something... I will shout it from the rooftops. When I am wrong... I will shout THAT from all places.

That post was merely information...

fair enough. I would point out that Dat simply does the same. He posts information and he also posts studies to support his positions on things. People who are intelligent read the information and studies and do what they want with them. Lets say you posted that article about cholesterol drugs being anti aging drugs. I bet there would definitely be people who without even reading it would see anti aging in the sentence and run to the doctor to get a script. My point is that one person may take the cholesterol drug with no problems while another it may ruin one's life. Ultimately everyone makes there own decisions about things and I for one feel he is providing a good base for understanding things we previously had little knowledge about.

[Wise Guy]

Well, unfortunately GHRP keeps me awake all night. So either

- GHRP does not raise my GH, or
- Raising my GH does not increase my slow wave sleep, or
- Dat's theory is wrong. This is most likely IMO. There might indeed be an association between GH and sleep, but it is probably not a causative relationship.

Is GHRP-6 the only peptide you have tried?

[wondering]

Anyone here take GHRP-6 AFTER being tuned up otherwise and notice a significant improvement in libido/ED?

Anyone?

[seekonk]

Is GHRP-6 the only peptide you have tried?

Also ipamorelin. I noticed no difference.

[seekonk]

Anyone here take GHRP-6 AFTER being tuned up otherwise and notice a significant improvement in libido/ED?

Curious why you ask this. Have you heard anything that made you think this would be the case?

Dat's forum has a thread "Loss of sex drive on peptides", which may be relevant.

[wondering]

Isn't this one of the main reasons Dr. J uses it?

Have I totally missed the boat on this?

Why would I take it otherwise? Seems noone is having great results on it to justify adding more expense and another daily task for the rest of my life.



Curious why you ask this. Have you heard anything that made you think this would be the case?

Dat's forum has a thread "Loss of sex drive on peptides", which may be relevant.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Curious why you ask this. Have you heard anything that made you think this would be the case?

Dat's forum has a thread "Loss of sex drive on peptides", which may be relevant.What does it say?

[seekonk]

What does it say?

A few guys there describe loss of sex drive on GHRPs (both GHRP-2 and GHRP-6), possibly after about 6 weeks of use. No ED, just total loss of interest, a mental issue. There is some speculation that it might be prolactin or cortisol related. Dat recommends using Mucuna.

[Jeffrey J]

A few guys there describe loss of sex drive on GHRPs (both GHRP-2 and GHRP-6), possibly after about 6 weeks of use. No ED, just total loss of interest, a mental issue. There is some speculation that it might be prolactin or cortisol related. Dat recommends using Mucuna.
Mucuna is a great product

[David Copperfield]

A few guys there describe loss of sex drive on GHRPs (both GHRP-2 and GHRP-6), possibly after about 6 weeks of use. No ED, just total loss of interest, a mental issue. There is some speculation that it might be prolactin or cortisol related. Dat recommends using Mucuna.

Do you remember any reporting this about Ipamorelin?

[seekonk]

Do you remember any reporting this about Ipamorelin?

It was not mentioned in that thread as causing this issue.

[Wise Guy]

It was not mentioned in that thread as causing this issue.

Ipamorelin is much, much superior to the other peptides when it comes for an affinity for GH release. Even at mega doses in the milligrams, it doesn't affect prolactin or cortisol.

[wondering]

bump. Noone?


Anyone here take GHRP-6 AFTER being tuned up otherwise and notice a significant improvement in libido/ED?

Anyone?

[Dadnatron]

Ipamorelin is much, much superior to the other peptides when it comes for an affinity for GH release. Even at mega doses in the milligrams, it doesn't affect prolactin or cortisol.

Where is this DATA? not conjecture... DATA?

[Jeffrey J]

Does ghrp-6 cause bloating? I think I'm 2.5 weeks into it and I feel awful whenever I ate I feel worse. Just had 3 pieces of flour-less bread and Its like I'm going to burst open.

[BigJimcalhoun]

Pubmed.gov has a lot as does another forum I will not mention.

Maybe Wise Guy can do something wise and modify the pubmed feed on this forum to pull more topics. :)

[wondering]

Another bump. I'm a pain, but noone?

=====
Anyone here take GHRP-6 AFTER being tuned up otherwise and notice a significant improvement in libido/ED?

Anyone?

[Wise Guy]

Where is this DATA? not conjecture... DATA?

I've read that in a couple studies. Which one I'm not sure, because I never book mark these things. I'm very busy because its finals week, or I would peruse these studies again, but I'm pretty sure your going to find it in here

I can dig it up next week if not.

You should get on Dats board. PM me for the address, and I can sponsor you in.

Big thanks to Dat

Ipamorelin

Starting with the compound NNC 26-0194 [3-(4-imidazolyl) propionyl-D-Phe-Ala-Trp-D-Phe (CH2NH) Lys-ol], Novo Nordisk researchers have developed NNC 26-0161 (ipamorelin)1. Ipamorelin is able to induce a massive release of GH, being active by the intravenous (i.v.), intra-muscular, subcutaneous and oral routes and, interestingly, also by the iontophoresis transdermal route2.



Ipamorelin exhibits linear pharmokinetics.



This GH-releasing peptide has a terminal half-life of at least 2 hours with a systemic clearance of .078 L/h/kg and a steady-state volume distribution of .22 L/kg in a typical subject. A large molecule such as a peptide is primarily localized in the central compartment and thus a small volume distribution is expected.3


GHRP-2 in short prepubertal children also produced a small volume distribution (0.32 L/kg) and a half-life of 1.5 hours. 4

Ipamorelin has a 25% longer half-life then GHRP-2.

Ipamorelin's effect on GH

GH concentrations rise to a sharp peak around .67 hours and decline to very low concentrations in all dosing levels by hour 6. The GH peak concentration levels occur after Ipamorelin peak concentration levels. The plasma Ipamorelin concentration level persisted for longer duration then GH plasma concentration levels and continued to exert an effect on smaller pulses.3
References:

1 - Rasmussen, M.H., Sogaard, B., Ynddal, L., Groes, L., Helmgaard, L. and Nordholm, L. (1998) Ipamorelin – a very potent novel growth hormone secretagogue. Proceedings of 80th Annual Meeting Endocrine Society, New Orleans, USA. Abstr P1-185

2 - Brosnan-Cook, M. et al. (1998) Iontophoretic delivery of ipamorelin, a growth hormone secretagogue. Proceedings of 80th Annual Meeting Endocrine Society, New Orleans, USA. Abstr P1-186

3 - Pharmacokinetic-Pharmacodynamic Modeling of Ipamorelin, a Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide in Human Volunteers, Jogarao V S Gobburu; Henrik Agerso; William J Jusko; Lars Ynddal Pharmaceutical Research; Sep 1999; 16, 9; ProQuest Nursing & Allied Health Source pg. 1412

4 - Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Growth Hormone-Releasing Peptide-2: A Phase I Study in Children1
Catherine Pihoker, Gregory L. Kearns, Daniel French and Cyril Y. Bowers, The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 83, No. 4 1168-1172
Lets take a look at the Rasmussen 1 in Growth Hormone & IGF Research Volume 8, Issue 4, August 1998, Page 332

P-11 IPAMORELIN - A NOVEL VERY POTENT GROWTH HORMONE SECRETAGOGUE

MH Rasmussen, B Soogaar, L YnddaI, L Groes, L Helmgaard, L Nordholm. Novo Nordisk A/S, Clinical Development, Bagsvaerd, Denmark.

In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, parallel group, dose-escalation, single-dose trial the pharmacokinetics and the growth hormone (GH) release of ipamorelin a novel pentapeptide GH secretagogue was investigated. Eight healthy male volunteers (6 active, 2 placebo) on each of five dose levels received trial product as a 15 min i.v. infusion. Dose level 1-5: 0.003, 0.01, 0.03, 0.06, 0.1 mg/kg, respectively.

A 10-h plasma profile of ipamorelin was determined for dose level 1-3 and a 24-h plasma profile was determined for dose level 4 and 5. A 10- h plasma profile of GH release was determined for all dose levels. No serious adverse events were reported and none of the subjects withdrew due to an adverse event.

Cmax and AUC for ipamorelin increased with increasing dose ranging from 30-809 nmol/l, and 68-1823 nmol*h/l, respectively. The elimination half-life ranged from 2.4 to 3.1 h for the three lowest dose levels and was 6.4 and 5.5 h for dose level 4 and 5.

Wow!! At high dose Ipamorelin continues to remain active for 5 to more then 6 hours. This means a dose of about 4mgs will result in Ipamorelin in plasma exerting an effect for 5 or so hours.

The latter indicates a deep compartment only revealed after the extended sampling interval or only revealed after high doses. Ipamorelin was able to stimulate GH release in a dose-dependent manner with Cmax ranging from 20-223 mU/l and AUC ranging from 30-373 mU*h/l. This should be compared with a Cmax mean GH value of 11 mU/1 for subjects receiving placebo.

Substantial GH release.
Although linearity between ipamorelin and GH with respect to AUC and Cmax was demonstrated, the maximum concentration of GH was reached in the 0.06 mg/kg dose level, indicating 0.06 mg/kg as the highest effective dose. In conclusion, ipamorelin is able to induce a massive GH release in healthy male subjects.

So the maximum effective Ipamorelin dose (sans GHRH) is 0.06 mg/kg or about 4.8mgs.

[BigJimcalhoun]

Another bump. I'm a pain, but noone?

=====
Anyone here take GHRP-6 AFTER being tuned up otherwise and notice a significant improvement in libido/ED?

Anyone?
I don't think this the goal of this medication.

[Wise Guy]

Pubmed.gov has a lot as does another forum I will not mention.

Maybe Wise Guy can do something wise and modify the pubmed feed on this forum to pull more topics. :)

I'm on it. Thanks

[Katzenjammer]

Another bump. I'm a pain, but noone?

=====
Anyone here take GHRP-6 AFTER being tuned up otherwise and notice a significant improvement in libido/ED?

Anyone?

Hey, I have no real information and mostly hearsay - but I've seen many people report that it does. Also, I may be misinformed but I've read that GH regulates all the other hormones - keeps them properly "orchestrated" so to speak; so perhaps it makes sense that it would enhance libido?

[JRA]

Anyone here take GHRP-6 AFTER being tuned up otherwise and notice a significant improvement in libido/ED?

Anyone?

Never noticed any improvement in libido using GHRP-6 alone, when I added
in IGF-1 LR3 there was a boost in my libido.

[Wise Guy]

Hey, I have no real information and mostly hearsay - but I've seen many people report that it does. Also, I may be misinformed but I've read that GH regulates all the other hormones - keeps them properly "orchestrated" so to speak; so perhaps it makes sense that it would enhance libido?

There are numerous studies all over the net that show GH levels and Leydig cell sensitivity go hand in hand, and that restoration of youthful GH levels boosts Leydig Cell sensitivity to LH.

If GHRP-6 is dumping libido, your either hyper sensitive to Ghrelin activity and/or its simply not boosting your GH.

Remember, you have to have a otherwise normal, functioning pituitary gland.

I suspect some of those who it isn't working for potentially could have issues here

[seekonk]

There are numerous studies all over the net that show GH levels and Leydig cell sensitivity go hand in hand, and that restoration of youthful GH levels boosts Leydig Cell sensitivity to LH.


GH perhaps, but there is potentially a problem with these ghrelin mimetic peptides such as the GHRPs. There is some bibliography that, at least to me, appears to suggest that these have the potential to be somewhat toxic to Leydig cells, and/or inhibit their secretion of testosterone.

If we take an "abundance of caution" point of view, then until more is known about this, it would seem to me that, at least in natural guys, direct GH might be safer than peptides for the testes.

The fact remains that there is very little, if any, before and after bloodwork available, measuring testosterone levels, for natural guys using these peptides.


Ghrelin Expression in Human Testis and Serum Testosterone Level
TOMOMOTO ISHIKAWA, HITOSHI FUJIOKA, TAKESHI ISHIMURA, ATSUSHI TAKENAKA AND MASATO FUJISAWA

Ghrelin expression by Leydig cells was inversely correlated with the serum T concentration (r = –.50; P < .001), but was not directly related to spermatogenesis. We conclude that steroidogenic dysfunction is associated with increased ghrelin expression in human testes.




Ghrelin Inhibits the Proliferative Activity of Immature Leydig Cells in Vivo and Regulates Stem Cell Factor Messenger Ribonucleic Acid Expression in Rat Testis
M. L. Barreiro, F. Gaytan, J. M. Castellano, J. S. Suominen, J. Roa, M. Gaytan, E. Aguilar, C. Dieguez, J. Toppari and M. Tena-Sempere


In these settings, intratesticular injection of ghrelin significantly decreased the proliferative activity of differentiating immature Leydig cells...

Overall, it is proposed that acquisition of ghrelin expression by Leydig cell precursors during differentiation may operate as a self-regulatory signal for the inhibition of the proliferative activity of this cell type through direct or indirect (i.e. SCF-mediated) mechanisms.

[Wise Guy]

natural[/I] guys using these peptides.

Maybe for the testes, but certainly not for the pituitary somatotrophs.

Its been established time and time again that direct GH supplementation via exogenous sources can downregulate the somatotrophs, and cause tachyphylaxis.

Not only that, its certainly not kind on the wallet. Besides, who is going to write you a script? Please post link, because others would like to know as well.

For those with broken pituitary glands, this is fine. For those who just accept that they are going to be on GH forever, than ok as well.

For me, the idea of using synthetic GH is absurd.

Besides, Dr John has noted numerous times he is sitting on hundreds of labs with many happy patients. I've noted numerous times that generally those happy with TRT and GHRT often aren't found on message boards - those with problems are such a significant over-representation of those here.

[seekonk]

Besides, Dr John has noted numerous times he is sitting on hundreds of labs with many happy patients. I've noted numerous times that generally those happy with TRT and GHRT often aren't found on message boards - those with problems are such a significant over-representation of those here.

Yes, but I assume most of these patients are also on TRT, so their results would be irrelevant to the issue raised.

I have never seen any study or bloodwork confirming safety in naturals of GHRPs as far as T and/or LH production is concerned. If someone has these bloodwork results for naturals, then let them speak up, but until they do this safety issue is very much an open question.

I agree the price of GH is absurd but it would be insane to let price trump safety concerns.

Also, GH in sane quantities cycled over limited periods do not cause appreciable downregulation or tachyphylaxis.

[may19th2001]

I would have to agree with what you said also.
Most patients I have heard are on TRT also, not just a GHRP or Peptitde, I have heard some just on HGH and not on TRT some on both, it just depends on various factors.
Also who can afford HGH everyday?


Maybe for the testes, but certainly not for the pituitary somatotrophs.

Its been established time and time again that direct GH supplementation via exogenous sources can downregulate the somatotrophs, and cause tachyphylaxis.

Not only that, its certainly not kind on the wallet. Besides, who is going to write you a script? Please post link, because others would like to know as well.

For those with broken pituitary glands, this is fine. For those who just accept that they are going to be on GH forever, than ok as well.

For me, the idea of using synthetic GH is absurd.

Besides, Dr John has noted numerous times he is sitting on hundreds of labs with many happy patients. I've noted numerous times that generally those happy with TRT and GHRT often aren't found on message boards - those with problems are such a significant over-representation of those here.

[EIC]

Yes, but I assume most of these patients are also on TRT, so their results would be irrelevant to the issue raised.

I have never seen any study or bloodwork confirming safety in naturals of GHRPs as far as T and/or LH production is concerned. If someone has these bloodwork results for naturals, then let them speak up, but until they do this safety issue is very much an open question.

I agree the price of GH is absurd but it would be insane to let price trump safety concerns.

Well we're really not talking "safety" here, are we? We are talking about a possible transient reduction in testosterone levels. This is not good, but it's not dangerous either.

An easy solution might be for you to run before labs, start using peptides for several months, note your subjective impressions, then take after labs. See if your T levels are reduced. I plan to do the same in the near future.

My point is that your suggestion that natural guys should avoid peptides until their effects on natural guys can be ascertained has created a catch-22. We can begin to break that cycle by being willing to test them out on ourselves.

[seekonk]

Well we're really not talking "safety" here, are we? We are talking about a possible transient reduction in testosterone levels. This is not good, but it's not dangerous either.


Assuming it is transient. :blink:

If indeed it does something to Leydig cell proliferation and turnover, it might not be so transient.

It boggles my mind that after all this time, no-one has been willing to post before-after bloodwork on naturals.

[Wise Guy]

Assuming it is transient. :blink:

If indeed it does something to Leydig cell proliferation and turnover, it might not be so transient.

It boggles my mind that after all this time, no-one has been willing to post before-after bloodwork on naturals.

Dr John has noted he is sitting on tons of tests. If GHRP did indeed cause desensitization and reduction in T levels, do you not think he wouldn't have mentioned it here? Or would still be using it?

[EIC]

Assuming it is transient. :blink:

If indeed it does something to Leydig cell proliferation and turnover, it might not be so transient.


That's true, but I doubt this is the mechanism. Our desire/ability to reproduce is inextricably intertwined with the availability of food. When food sources are thin, we have enough trouble feeding ourselves, let alone offspring. Hence, our body dials back our reproductive hormones while we focus on finding food. When food is plentiful, our body ramps back up our reproductive capacity so that we may beget offspring. This, of course, is why so many animals have offspring in the spring, so that they babies can eat through spring, summer, and fall, before lean times hit in the winter.

Remember that at worst the peptides are mimicking ghrelin, the hunger hormone. I doubt seriously that ghrelin has an insidious ability to hurt our testicles. More likely it is just a switch that down regulates T production at that time for the purposes discussed above.

But I suppose the possibility exists and share your frustration with the lack of concrete information.

[Wise Guy]

That's true, but I doubt this is the mechanism. Our desire/ability to reproduce is inextricably intertwined with the availability of food. When food sources are thin, we have enough trouble feeding ourselves, let alone offspring. Hence, our body dials back our reproductive hormones while we focus on finding food. When food is plentiful, our body ramps back up our reproductive capacity so that we may beget offspring. This, of course, is why so many animals have offspring in the spring, so that they babies can eat through spring, summer, and fall, before lean times hit in the winter.

Remember that at worst the peptides are mimicking ghrelin, the hunger hormone. I doubt seriously that ghrelin has an insidious ability to hurt our testicles. More likely it is just a switch that down regulates T production at that time for the purposes discussed above.

But I suppose the possibility exists and share your frustration with the lack of concrete information.

:seeya:

Nice post. Either way, Dat, who is waaaaaaaaaaaay smarter than anyone here, has been on the peptides for 2 years and is natural and certainly, at 43, isn't exactly a spring chicken anymore.

He himself thinks its a non issue as well.

I wish more of Dr J's guys were on here posting labs and such, but like I mentioned before, the net is full of the people w/ the issues, and to a much, MUCH lessor extent, happy patients. Many older gents are also not so computer/net savvy as well.

[JRA]

:seeya:

Nice post. Either way, Dat, who is waaaaaaaaaaaay smarter than anyone here, has been on the peptides for 2 years and is natural and certainly, at 43, isn't exactly a spring chicken anymore.

He himself thinks its a non issue as well.

I wish more of Dr J's guys were on here posting labs and such, but like I mentioned before, the net is full of the people w/ the issues, and to a much, MUCH lessor extent, happy patients. Many older gents are also not so computer/net savvy as well.

When I do research on Dat's site my brain can only absorb a very small amount of the data Dat puts out.
The guy probably forgets more in 10 minutes than I can learn in 10 days.

[Bulldog]

When I do research on Dat's site my brain can only absorb a very small amount of the data Dat puts out.
The guy probably forgets more in 10 minutes than I can learn in 10 days.

Yeah, probably 99% of it is over my head.

[EIC]

:seeya:

Nice post. Either way, Dat, who is waaaaaaaaaaaay smarter than anyone here, has been on the peptides for 2 years and is natural and certainly, at 43, isn't exactly a spring chicken anymore.

He himself thinks its a non issue as well.

I wish more of Dr J's guys were on here posting labs and such, but like I mentioned before, the net is full of the people w/ the issues, and to a much, MUCH lessor extent, happy patients. Many older gents are also not so computer/net savvy as well.

Can't say I agree he's "smarter than anyone here," but he definitely is at the top of the game when it comes to peptides.

In any event, if I can ever shake these unbelievably bad digestive issues, you can bet your you-know-what I will be going after peptides with before and after labs to identify effect on T levels.

[wondering]

Not easy to do, but for a few weeks...

1. Eliminate ALL simple sugars.
2. No coffee or any caffeinated drinks. Herbal tea only and water only.
3. No alcohol.
4. No regular milk, try oat milk, rice milk, almond milk.
5. No cereals or wheat. Oatmeal for breakfast.
6. Only good oils - olive, avocado, etc.
7. TONS of vegetables and some fruit.
8. Fish
9 Take a probiotic at bedtime.

I tried Ultra Clear from Metagenics at the same time. I feel better but not ready to say it was from that or the strict diet that has me feeling better.


Can't say I agree he's "smarter than anyone here," but he definitely is at the top of the game when it comes to peptides.

In any event, if I can ever shake these unbelievably bad digestive issues, you can bet your you-know-what I will be going after peptides with before and after labs to identify effect on T levels.

[chilln]

Either way, Dat, who is waaaaaaaaaaaay smarter than anyone here ...


Sorry Wise Guy. I take exception.

Hormones are a symphony, and GH is only one part of that. When a person approaches with multiple hormone dysfunction, and most do, then the solution is rarely "boost your GH and your hormone issues will be resolved".

I do recognize that eventually all aging males need to boost both their testosterone and their GH, due to the genetic downregulation of these two repair trigger hormones by clock genes, which consumption of natural foods, in their natural food state, will not reverse.

But what makes someone smarter than someone else, when it comes to health management, is a person's ability to restore someone's health to optimum, not just their GH, and there are a lot of males with multiple hormone dysfunction who frequent this forum, who haven't reversed the aging clock sufficiently because they injected themselves with a few peptides.

.

[seekonk]

When I do research on Dat's site my brain can only absorb a very small amount of the data Dat puts out.

You guys exaggerate. It is not that difficult.

Much of the information Dat has found is promising theory, but theory nonetheless, not supported by any well-run clinical interventional trials, double blind or not. True, Dat himself has used these peptides for a while, and says many guys send him emails on their success, but it should give anyone in his right mind pause that Dat does his own trials on himself by feel, not bloodwork. In the absence of trials, everything from safety to efficacy remains up in the air. Again, I am not saying it is not promising, but there is no excuse for just following Dat or anyone else's words blindly.

[Wise Guy]

Sorry Wise Guy. I take exception.


.

I meant in respects to peptides and analogs :biggrin:

Oh, I guess you could throw molecular biology, biology, physics, and chemistry in there as well :cheers2:

But point taken

[josh]

Does anybody have a copy of

http://www.superhumanradio.com/SHR_Show_418.mp3

http://www.superhumanradio.com/super-human-radio-show/418-the-ghrp-protocol.html

The mp3 gives a 404 error.

Cheers

[BigJimcalhoun]

No worries mate, I have it. Not sure how to get it to you. It is 26mb.

I am not going to Sydney until maybe June.

[josh]

Awesome.

You're in Australia for a while then? How's it been treating you? :cool:


Perhaps you could upload it to somewhere like 2shared (or megaupload/rapidshare etc. I haven't used any of them to be honest, but 2shared looks easy and clean.)
http://www.2shared.com/

Cheers :)

[fuz32560]

I've been unable to use GHRP-6 since December because ANEWRX is involved in licensing difficulties with California (where I live). It's been incredibly frustrating getting excited about GHRP-6 and then being unable to use it for 3 months.

Do any of you know of a compounding pharmacy that ships GHRP-6 to California with a script from Dr. Crisler?

Thanks so much for any name you can supply,

DeepThought42

I had the same problem. I found a workaround that costs 10$/ month.

Google mail forwarding las Vegas.

Pm me if u need more info.

[Wise Guy]

I had the same problem. I found a workaround that costs 10$/ month.

Google mail forwarding las Vegas.

Pm me if u need more info.

:thumbup:

[may19th2001]

I would call around and see, I would say try College Pharmacy if AnewRx can not ship to the State of Ca, I know Ca is overregulated on some things, I am not sure if it is as bad as NY or about the same as far as these kind of meds go.
I would first talk to my Dr about this issue, perhaps you will have to use something else or the Dr's Staff may be able to help you find a Pharmacy.


I had the same problem. I found a workaround that costs 10$/ month.

Google mail forwarding las Vegas.

Pm me if u need more info.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Please call the office if you are in the same boat. We have made arrangements to employ a secondary compounder for those six states. I met with the owner in Orlando last week.

[Dr. John Crisler]

:seeya:

Nice post. Either way, Dat, who is waaaaaaaaaaaay smarter than anyone here, has been on the peptides for 2 years and is natural and certainly, at 43, isn't exactly a spring chicken anymore.

He himself thinks its a non issue as well.

I wish more of Dr J's guys were on here posting labs and such, but like I mentioned before, the net is full of the people w/ the issues, and to a much, MUCH lessor extent, happy patients. Many older gents are also not so computer/net savvy as well.We need to be clear about something.

Reading studies that show mechanism is not the same as knowing how to do medicine.

Let me give you an example. No matter what the studies, or dat, or anyone else says, what we commonly see in clinical practice can be QUITE different.

For instance, I have seen a number of individuals who do best on 100mcgs GHRP-6 per day. Any more than that, and their IGF-1 drops. It seems a fair number are powerful desensitizers.

That means a number of the guys taking all those peptides may be actually lowering their growth hormone production! Unless they are properly testing (something else in the realm of the clinician) there is no way to know.

GHRP-6 provides benefits far beyond mere GH production increase. I know that from clinical experience as well. So you could indeed derive benefits--subjective and objective--while actually lowering GH. Again, without proper testing (itself sometimes challenging) there is no way to know.

So let's be careful when annointing who knows what. Technical expertise falls far short of practical experience. You need both. I won't use the phrase "armchair quarterback" because same was hurled by some DH's over at another forum who were attacking dat because he was getting in the way of their proprietary interests (how DARE he speak truth in service of the members when it hurts the profits of others?! LOL), but he does make mistakes because he is not a clinician.

Knowing dat as I do, I'm sure he would say the same thing.

For these reasons, I am SO thankful for the work dat has done in this area--and freely given away to everyone. That thread over at PM has to be the greatest ever in the history of the message boards.

[Dr. John Crisler]

You guys exaggerate. It is not that difficult.

Much of the information Dat has found is promising theory, but theory nonetheless, not supported by any well-run clinical interventional trials, double blind or not. True, Dat himself has used these peptides for a while, and says many guys send him emails on their success, but it should give anyone in his right mind pause that Dat does his own trials on himself by feel, not bloodwork. In the absence of trials, everything from safety to efficacy remains up in the air. Again, I am not saying it is not promising, but there is no excuse for just following Dat or anyone else's words blindly.
We are building a body of knowledge and experience. It's all good--as long as we appreciate the limitations of each.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I meant in respects to peptides and analogs :biggrin:

Oh, I guess you could throw molecular biology, biology, physics, and chemistry in there as well :cheers2:

But point takenWhat we are REALLY talking about is medicine. REAL people.

Let's keep that in mind.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Does anybody have a copy of

http://www.superhumanradio.com/SHR_Show_418.mp3

http://www.superhumanradio.com/super-human-radio-show/418-the-ghrp-protocol.html

The mp3 gives a 404 error.

CheersI forgot to correct Carl when he said GHRP-6's produce harmonics of GH production throughout the day. Sermorelin does that (a completely different class of drug).

[Dr. John Crisler]

Never noticed any improvement in libido using GHRP-6 alone, when I added
in IGF-1 LR3 there was a boost in my libido.HEY! There will be NO mention of illegals here.

Cease and desist.

[Dr. John Crisler]

GH perhaps, but there is potentially a problem with these ghrelin mimetic peptides such as the GHRPs. There is some bibliography that, at least to me, appears to suggest that these have the potential to be somewhat toxic to Leydig cells, and/or inhibit their secretion of testosterone.

If we take an "abundance of caution" point of view, then until more is known about this, it would seem to me that, at least in natural guys, direct GH might be safer than peptides for the testes.

The fact remains that there is very little, if any, before and after bloodwork available, measuring testosterone levels, for natural guys using these peptides.
The first study deals with Ghrelin expression BY THE TESTES. That's different.

And shooting ANYTHING into my balls would surely lower my testosterone! LOL

nd GHRP-6 is NOT Ghrelin. It's a short peptide chain that mimicks the moietry and electrostatics of Ghrelin at the secretogogue receptor.

I don't yet know what the final answer will turn out to be, so I am just adding some perspective.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I've read that in a couple studies. Which one I'm not sure, because I never book mark these things. I'm very busy because its finals week, or I would peruse these studies again, but I'm pretty sure your going to find it in here

I can dig it up next week if not.

You should get on Dats board. PM me for the address, and I can sponsor you in.

Big thanks to Dat

Ipamorelin

Starting with the compound NNC 26-0194 [3-(4-imidazolyl) propionyl-D-Phe-Ala-Trp-D-Phe (CH2NH) Lys-ol], Novo Nordisk researchers have developed NNC 26-0161 (ipamorelin)1. Ipamorelin is able to induce a massive release of GH, being active by the intravenous (i.v.), intra-muscular, subcutaneous and oral routes and, interestingly, also by the iontophoresis transdermal route2.



Ipamorelin exhibits linear pharmokinetics.



This GH-releasing peptide has a terminal half-life of at least 2 hours with a systemic clearance of .078 L/h/kg and a steady-state volume distribution of .22 L/kg in a typical subject. A large molecule such as a peptide is primarily localized in the central compartment and thus a small volume distribution is expected.3


GHRP-2 in short prepubertal children also produced a small volume distribution (0.32 L/kg) and a half-life of 1.5 hours. 4

Ipamorelin has a 25% longer half-life then GHRP-2.

Ipamorelin's effect on GH

GH concentrations rise to a sharp peak around .67 hours and decline to very low concentrations in all dosing levels by hour 6. The GH peak concentration levels occur after Ipamorelin peak concentration levels. The plasma Ipamorelin concentration level persisted for longer duration then GH plasma concentration levels and continued to exert an effect on smaller pulses.3
References:

1 - Rasmussen, M.H., Sogaard, B., Ynddal, L., Groes, L., Helmgaard, L. and Nordholm, L. (1998) Ipamorelin – a very potent novel growth hormone secretagogue. Proceedings of 80th Annual Meeting Endocrine Society, New Orleans, USA. Abstr P1-185

2 - Brosnan-Cook, M. et al. (1998) Iontophoretic delivery of ipamorelin, a growth hormone secretagogue. Proceedings of 80th Annual Meeting Endocrine Society, New Orleans, USA. Abstr P1-186

3 - Pharmacokinetic-Pharmacodynamic Modeling of Ipamorelin, a Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide in Human Volunteers, Jogarao V S Gobburu; Henrik Agerso; William J Jusko; Lars Ynddal Pharmaceutical Research; Sep 1999; 16, 9; ProQuest Nursing & Allied Health Source pg. 1412

4 - Pharmacokinetics and Pharmacodynamics of Growth Hormone-Releasing Peptide-2: A Phase I Study in Children1
Catherine Pihoker, Gregory L. Kearns, Daniel French and Cyril Y. Bowers, The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 83, No. 4 1168-1172
Lets take a look at the Rasmussen 1 in Growth Hormone & IGF Research Volume 8, Issue 4, August 1998, Page 332

P-11 IPAMORELIN - A NOVEL VERY POTENT GROWTH HORMONE SECRETAGOGUE

MH Rasmussen, B Soogaar, L YnddaI, L Groes, L Helmgaard, L Nordholm. Novo Nordisk A/S, Clinical Development, Bagsvaerd, Denmark.

In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, parallel group, dose-escalation, single-dose trial the pharmacokinetics and the growth hormone (GH) release of ipamorelin a novel pentapeptide GH secretagogue was investigated. Eight healthy male volunteers (6 active, 2 placebo) on each of five dose levels received trial product as a 15 min i.v. infusion. Dose level 1-5: 0.003, 0.01, 0.03, 0.06, 0.1 mg/kg, respectively.

A 10-h plasma profile of ipamorelin was determined for dose level 1-3 and a 24-h plasma profile was determined for dose level 4 and 5. A 10- h plasma profile of GH release was determined for all dose levels. No serious adverse events were reported and none of the subjects withdrew due to an adverse event.

Cmax and AUC for ipamorelin increased with increasing dose ranging from 30-809 nmol/l, and 68-1823 nmol*h/l, respectively. The elimination half-life ranged from 2.4 to 3.1 h for the three lowest dose levels and was 6.4 and 5.5 h for dose level 4 and 5.

Wow!! At high dose Ipamorelin continues to remain active for 5 to more then 6 hours. This means a dose of about 4mgs will result in Ipamorelin in plasma exerting an effect for 5 or so hours.

The latter indicates a deep compartment only revealed after the extended sampling interval or only revealed after high doses. Ipamorelin was able to stimulate GH release in a dose-dependent manner with Cmax ranging from 20-223 mU/l and AUC ranging from 30-373 mU*h/l. This should be compared with a Cmax mean GH value of 11 mU/1 for subjects receiving placebo.

Substantial GH release.
Although linearity between ipamorelin and GH with respect to AUC and Cmax was demonstrated, the maximum concentration of GH was reached in the 0.06 mg/kg dose level, indicating 0.06 mg/kg as the highest effective dose. In conclusion, ipamorelin is able to induce a massive GH release in healthy male subjects.

So the maximum effective Ipamorelin dose (sans GHRH) is 0.06 mg/kg or about 4.8mgs.You have to be careful about making a generalization such as the first bolding, as this does not mean GH production will automaticaly go up.

Remember the powerful desentization all secretogogues self-induce.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Hey, I have no real information and mostly hearsay - but I've seen many people report that it does. Also, I may be misinformed but I've read that GH regulates all the other hormones - keeps them properly "orchestrated" so to speak; so perhaps it makes sense that it would enhance libido?In absence of other possible effects of GHRP's, this would be true, as GHRT improves sexual function in many.

[Nuclear]

We need to be clear about something.

Reading studies that show mechanism is not the same as knowing how to do medicine.

Let me give you an example. No matter what the studies, or dat, or anyone else says, what we commonly see in clinical practice can be QUITE different.

For instance, I have seen a number of individuals who do best on 100mcgs GHRP-6 per day. Any more than that, and their IGF-1 drops. It seems a fair number are powerful desensitizers.

That means a number of the guys taking all those peptides may be actually lowering their growth hormone production! Unless they are properly testing (something else in the realm of the clinician) there is no way to know.

GHRP-6 provides benefits far beyond mere GH production increase. I know that from clinical experience as well. So you could indeed derive benefits--subjective and objective--while actually lowering GH. Again, without proper testing (itself sometimes challenging) there is no way to know.

So let's be careful when annointing who knows what. Technical expertise falls far short of practical experience. You need both. I won't use the phrase "armchair quarterback" because same was hurled by some DH's over at another forum who were attacking dat because he was getting in the way of their proprietary interests (how DARE he speak truth in service of the members when it hurts the profits of others?! LOL), but he does make mistakes because he is not a clinician.

Knowing dat as I do, I'm sure he would say the same thing.

For these reasons, I am SO thankful for the work dat has done in this area--and freely given away to everyone. That thread over at PM has to be the greatest ever in the history of the message boards.



So, IGF-1 is the gold standard for assessing GH levels and the effect of the GHRP?

[Katzenjammer]

We need to be clear about something.

Reading studies that show mechanism is not the same as knowing how to do medicine.

Let me give you an example. No matter what the studies, or dat, or anyone else says, what we commonly see in clinical practice can be QUITE different.

For instance, I have seen a number of individuals who do best on 100mcgs GHRP-6 per day. Any more than that, and their IGF-1 drops. It seems a fair number are powerful desensitizers.

That means a number of the guys taking all those peptides may be actually lowering their growth hormone production! Unless they are properly testing (something else in the realm of the clinician) there is no way to know.

GHRP-6 provides benefits far beyond mere GH production increase. I know that from clinical experience as well. So you could indeed derive benefits--subjective and objective--while actually lowering GH. Again, without proper testing (itself sometimes challenging) there is no way to know.

So let's be careful when annointing who knows what. Technical expertise falls far short of practical experience. You need both. I won't use the phrase "armchair quarterback" because same was hurled by some DH's over at another forum who were attacking dat because he was getting in the way of their proprietary interests (how DARE he speak truth in service of the members when it hurts the profits of others?! LOL), but he does make mistakes because he is not a clinician.

Knowing dat as I do, I'm sure he would say the same thing.

For these reasons, I am SO thankful for the work dat has done in this area--and freely given away to everyone. That thread over at PM has to be the greatest ever in the history of the message boards.

Dr. Crisler,

Dat talks about two levels of IGF-1 - that testing misses autocrine/paracrine (locally produced/used) levels in favor of systemic levels? Do you buy this argument?

[Dr. John Crisler]

Dr. Crisler,

Dat talks about two levels of IGF-1 - that testing misses autocrine/paracrine (locally produced/used) levels in favor of systemic levels? Do you buy this argument?
Yup. It's not an argument--it's how things work.

THAT is delving into the "nature of reality" perspective of laboratory testing.

A 24 hour GH assay is the best answer. Rhein Consulting Laboratories.

[Katzenjammer]

Yup. It's not an argument--it's how things work.

THAT is delving into the "nature of reality" perspective of laboratory testing.

A 24 hour GH assay is the best answer. Rhein Consulting Laboratories.

And the Rhein test would capture IGF-1 produced/used at the autocrine/paracrine level?

[Nuclear]

An interesting read:

Role of biochemical tests in assessing the need for growth hormone therapy in children with short stature... (http://www.acb.org.uk/Annclinbiochem/Webwise/jb.pdf)

[Dr. John Crisler]

And the Rhein test would capture IGF-1 produced/used at the autocrine/paracrine level?No-it tells how much GH you are actually producing.

Regulation of IGF-1 production peripherally is a different matter. I'm sure we will find ways to modulate that eventually (heck, maybe some are working on it already).

[Wise Guy]

No-it tells how much GH you are actually producing.

Regulation of IGF-1 production peripherally is a different matter. I'm sure we will find ways to modulate that eventually (heck, maybe some are working on it already).

Doesn't healthy insulin levels drive GH into the cell, and all that is needed is a moderate amount of IGF-1 to signal growth and repair?

I think this is also the magic behind why post workout carbs are so essential to growth and repair - its during this time that the cells are primed for fuel and growth.

[DeepThought42]

We need to be clear about something.

Reading studies that show mechanism is not the same as knowing how to do medicine.

Let me give you an example. No matter what the studies, or dat, or anyone else says, what we commonly see in clinical practice can be QUITE different.

For instance, I have seen a number of individuals who do best on 100mcgs GHRP-6 per day. Any more than that, and their IGF-1 drops. It seems a fair number are powerful desensitizers.

That means a number of the guys taking all those peptides may be actually lowering their growth hormone production! Unless they are properly testing (something else in the realm of the clinician) there is no way to know.

GHRP-6 provides benefits far beyond mere GH production increase. I know that from clinical experience as well. So you could indeed derive benefits--subjective and objective--while actually lowering GH. Again, without proper testing (itself sometimes challenging) there is no way to know.

So let's be careful when annointing who knows what. Technical expertise falls far short of practical experience. You need both. I won't use the phrase "armchair quarterback" because same was hurled by some DH's over at another forum who were attacking dat because he was getting in the way of their proprietary interests (how DARE he speak truth in service of the members when it hurts the profits of others?! LOL), but he does make mistakes because he is not a clinician.

Knowing dat as I do, I'm sure he would say the same thing.

For these reasons, I am SO thankful for the work dat has done in this area--and freely given away to everyone. That thread over at PM has to be the greatest ever in the history of the message boards.

Note your statement that I put in bold. How are you convinced that "a number of the guys taking all those peptides may be actually lowering their growth hormone production"? Hopefully you are not solely basing this statement on watching their IGF-1 readings? Do the number of individuals who display this effect constitute a significant percentage?

Do you have a statistically significant number of patients in which you did a Rhein 24-hour GH both prior to, and during peptide use and you found that their 24-hour GH went down with peptide use? Now *that's* evidence that would make me sit up.

Thanks,
DeepThought42