Lucky1's E2

[Lucky1]

E2 does not exist in a vacuum...unfortunately. :mad:

Optimal E2 is largely dependent on the person and other important factors such as SHBG.

Someone with low SHBG will feel optimized at a much lower E2 level than others. Alternatively, those with persistently high SHBG will often experience low E2 symptoms with a relatively "normal" E2.

I think that aiming for 20 or so is a good start. Some men feel better at higher levels and some studies I've read indicate an increased risk of bone loss or fracture at levels below 18.

I felt really good at 25 but have been stuck with low E2 and haven't been able to recover back to that point yet.

LowT, That is very interesting. My SHBG is 12, and my E2 29 on a scale to 30.
What do you feel would be my target zone??

[LowT]

LowT, That is very interesting. My SHBG is 12, and my E2 29 on a scale to 30.
What do you feel would be my target zone??

You'd have to work with your doctor to determine that...I've seen many guys on the boards who seem to think that having an E2 about 2/3 of their SHBG is good.

My guess is that with your low SHBG that E2 might leave you with some high E2 symptoms, is that the case?

[Lucky1]

You'd have to work with your doctor to determine that...I've seen many guys on the boards who seem to think that having an E2 about 2/3 of their SHBG is good.

My guess is that with your low SHBG that E2 might leave you with some high E2 symptoms, is that the case?

Well, my doc says my SHBG is low do to my Type 2 diabetes. My sugars now run between 85 to 130. I now workout 5 days a week, and have lost 45 lbs., and still trying to lose more.

Here are some of my symptoms, no morning wood, no motivation, no drive for life, depression, elevated pulse, red face, loosing since of smell, man breast, I have always had them. I can't lose weight to save my life. The 45 lbs, have taken almost a year.

[JanSz]

Well, my doc says my SHBG is low do to my Type 2 diabetes. My sugars now run between 85 to 130. I now workout 5 days a week, and have lost 45 lbs., and still trying to lose more.

Here are some of my symptoms, no morning wood, no motivation, no drive for life, depression, elevated pulse, red face, loosing since of smell, man breast, I have always had them. I can't lose weight to save my life. The 45 lbs, have taken almost a year.

I assume that long time ago you stopped eating ALL high and medium GI foods,
right?

//

[Lucky1]

I assume that long time ago you stopped eating ALL high and medium GI foods,
right?

//

Yes!! I try not to eat more than 30 grams of carbs per day, with one cheat day the week.

[JanSz]

Yes!! I try not to eat more than 30 grams of carbs per day, with one cheat day the week.

You also are not eating anything that have been processed by temperature higher than 250F, right?

Best when steamed or raw.


///

[Lucky1]

You also are not eating anything that have been processed by temperature higher than 250F, right?

Best when steamed or raw.


///

No...no more processed meat. Mostly eggs, chicken, fish, turkey, steak, hamburger, Broccoli, salad, omega 3 - 4000 mg.

[LowT]

Well, my doc says my SHBG is low do to my Type 2 diabetes. My sugars now run between 85 to 130. I now workout 5 days a week, and have lost 45 lbs., and still trying to lose more.

Here are some of my symptoms, no morning wood, no motivation, no drive for life, depression, elevated pulse, red face, loosing since of smell, man breast, I have always had them. I can't lose weight to save my life. The 45 lbs, have taken almost a year.

Has your doctor offered you an AI to control E2? Are you using a TD cream or injections?

[Lucky1]

Has your doctor offered you an AI to control E2? Are you using a TD cream or injections?

I'm using a compound cream Testosterone.
The container say Testosterone/D(K) 10/1 % cream, I'm currently taking 2.5 grams per day.

I regards to the AI, he wants to see the next blood test.....

[JanSz]

I'm using a compound cream Testosterone.
The container say Testosterone/D(K) 10/1 % cream, I'm currently taking 2.5 grams per day.

I regards to the AI, he wants to see the next blood test.....

I am guessing that you have 10% t-cream,
Applying 250mg testosterone daily.
That is a large dose.

If that will not give you good TT levels
switch to injectable
and
hurry up and work on adrenals and thyroid.


..

[LowT]

I'm using a compound cream Testosterone.
The container say Testosterone/D(K) 10/1 % cream, I'm currently taking 2.5 grams per day.

I regards to the AI, he wants to see the next blood test.....

That's a lot of T cream and based on your SHBG cream is not recommended, rather injections.

Because of your low SHBG your body clears testosterone rapidly so you need to use lots of cream to raise your levels to acceptable range. In the meantime you're metabolizing large amounts T and DHT that is just excreted out. E2 is also going to spike rapidly for the same reasons.

I would talk to your doctor about switching to injections. I would bet you'd feel better with more stable levels and your E2 would come down.

[Lucky1]

That's a lot of T cream and based on your SHBG cream is not recommended, rather injections.

Because of your low SHBG your body clears testosterone rapidly so you need to use lots of cream to raise your levels to acceptable range. In the meantime you're metabolizing large amounts T and DHT that is just excreted out. E2 is also going to spike rapidly for the same reasons.

I would talk to your doctor about switching to injections. I would bet you'd feel better with more stable levels and your E2 would come down.

Here are my new test results. I have been TRT for 3 months (compound cream). And 2.5 grams per day.

Testosterone, Total - 708 (350-1030)

Testosterone,% Free - 3% (1.5-3.2) (by dialysis)

Free Testosterone - 212 (52-280)

SHBG - 11 (20-60) BTW-I'm a type 2 diabetic

TSH - 2.9 (.5-4.8)

DHEA - 496 (160-800)

DHT - 167 (30-85)

Estradiol, Mass Spectrometry - 3.4% (.8-3.5%)

Progesterone - <10 (<10-11)

[Lucky1]

That's a lot of T cream and based on your SHBG cream is not recommended, rather injections.

Because of your low SHBG your body clears testosterone rapidly so you need to use lots of cream to raise your levels to acceptable range. In the meantime you're metabolizing large amounts T and DHT that is just excreted out. E2 is also going to spike rapidly for the same reasons.

I would talk to your doctor about switching to injections. I would bet you'd feel better with more stable levels and your E2 would come down.

My doctor only will do shots if the cream is not working, and he says it is.

Do you think applying the cream 2x a day would be better? Maybe 1.25 in the AM, and 1.25 in the Pm.

[Lucky1]

I am guessing that you have 10% t-cream,
Applying 250mg testosterone daily.
That is a large dose.

If that will not give you good TT levels
switch to injectable
and
hurry up and work on adrenals and thyroid.


..

Just waiting on the results....

[LowT]

I would bet that if you ran a 24-hour urine test you would see shockingly high T/DHT/E metabolite levels.

My SHBG was same as yours and I was using 2g of cream. My 24 hour DHT was 5 times the range (no wonder my hair was falling out) my T and E were double the range but my serum T was only at 800.

Your doc should know that low SHBG is best treated with a long-lasting T ester like test cyp. rather than a quicker acting transdermal.

The result of using a cream with low SHBG means higher E2 that is then patched up with an AI, high DHT which causes unpleasant sides like hair loss which has to be addressed, and the higher T dosing then traps you because it also lowers SHBG.

I think you'd be better off with an injectable T but ultimately your doctor will have to address that.

[Lucky1]

I would bet that if you ran a 24-hour urine test you would see shockingly high T/DHT/E metabolite levels.

My SHBG was same as yours and I was using 2g of cream. My 24 hour DHT was 5 times the range (no wonder my hair was falling out) my T and E were double the range but my serum T was only at 800.

Your doc should know that low SHBG is best treated with a long-lasting T ester like test cyp. rather than a quicker acting transdermal.

The result of using a cream with low SHBG means higher E2 that is then patched up with an AI, high DHT which causes unpleasant sides like hair loss which has to be addressed, and the higher T dosing then traps you because it also lowers SHBG.

I think you'd be better off with an injectable T but ultimately your doctor will have to address that.

My doc told me he has patients that take 4 grams per day. If you look at my post, 3 post back I put my results from my last blood test. My doctor was not concerned about any of the high results, he just wanted to know how I was feel, libido, energy, emotions.

[Massa]

My doc told me he has patients that take 4 grams per day. If you look at my post, 3 post back I put my results from my last blood test. My doctor was not concerned about any of the high results, he just wanted to know how I was feel, libido, energy, emotions.
this shows that your doc at least cares about his patients as persons and not only their numbers (i.e. blood values) as my endocrinologist tends to do.

[pmgamer18]

I can't say about switching to shots but my SHBG is at about 19 do to this low number I keep my E2 levels at 15 never feel good above 20 pg/ml this lower your SHBG the lower you can keep your E2 levels. Yet I have read man on TRT there sugary levels got better in time.

If you got your E2 down all of this might get better no morning wood, no motivation, no drive for life, depression, elevated pulse, red face, loosing since of smell, man breast.

[seekonk]

I would bet that if you ran a 24-hour urine test you would see shockingly high T/DHT/E metabolite levels.

My SHBG was same as yours and I was using 2g of cream. My 24 hour DHT was 5 times the range (no wonder my hair was falling out) my T and E were double the range but my serum T was only at 800.

I am not sure urine values are really significant in this case. It just means that you excrete a lot of T, DHT, etc., but that does not mean these hormones are being used by the body. Rather the opposite, I would guess.

I am pretty sure that serum levels are the important ones. I have seen several guys here (including me) who feel like their serum, not their urine. :laugh:

[Lucky1]

I can't say about switching to shots but my SHBG is at about 19 do to this low number I keep my E2 levels at 15 never feel good above 20 pg/ml this lower your SHBG the lower you can keep your E2 levels. Yet I have read man on TRT there sugary levels got better in time.

If you got your E2 down all of this might get better no morning wood, no motivation, no drive for life, depression, elevated pulse, red face, loosing since of smell, man breast.

I'm going to push my doctor, after my next blood test.

I was reading on another forum, and someone mentioned at, Adex has alot of side effects, he recommended one that starts with an L, like Loz....Not sure the name, but he said it had no side effects like Adex.

[seekonk]

I was reading on another forum, and someone mentioned at, Adex has alot of side effects, ...

Not true unless you take too much...

[LowT]

I am not sure urine values are really significant in this case. It just means that you excrete a lot of T, DHT, etc., but that does not mean these hormones are being used by the body. Rather the opposite, I would guess.

I am pretty sure that serum levels are the important ones. I have seen several guys here (including me) who feel like their serum, not their urine. :laugh:

Yes, serum is what's most relevant to how you feel.

However urinary metabolites are important and accurate...that's why Dr. J uses them.

All that extra metabolized E2 is still hitting the receptors in your breast tissue and prostate gland wrecking things.

The excess DHT is going to make you lose hair, some more than others.

Additionally, the excess can impair liver metabolism.

[hebsie]

I'm going to push my doctor, after my next blood test.

I was reading on another forum, and someone mentioned at, Adex has alot of side effects, he recommended one that starts with an L, like Loz....Not sure the name, but he said it had no side effects like Adex.

...more than likely it was Letrozole, aka Femara®...hebs

[Lucky1]

...more than likely it was Letrozole, aka Femara®...hebs

Yes, that's it. What do you think of it??

[hebsie]

...quite honestly I don't know a lot about it, but here's a rather comprehensive compilation of articles (http://qualitycounts.com/drugs/breast_cancer/femara_letrozole.htm) about it...hebs

[hebsie]

...an article from (http://www.isteroids.com/steroids/Letrozole-Femara.html) inside that link


Letrozole
Chemical Name: Femara
Drug Class: Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor

Letrozole is Novartis’ entry into the breast cancer treatment world. It’s a Type-II Aromatase Inhibitor (AI), which means that it competitively binds to the aromatase enzyme and inhibits the enzyme’s ability to metabolize testosterone into estrogen. This drug was developed to fight breast cancer by inhibiting the aromatization.

Letrozole is probably the most powerful Aromatase Inhibitor used by athletes today. It has been shown to reduce estrogen levels in women with breast cancer by 98% or more (1). SO clearly, it’s useful for administration to male steroid using athletes who are eager to prevent some of estrogen’s nastier effects on their bodies- development of breast tissue, water retention, etc…

When we take a look at its effects in men, Letrozole actually reduced estrogen in one test subject to undetectable levels (2). In another clinical study, intravenous administration of Letrozole (2.5mcg for 28 days), Letrozole lowered Estrogen by 46% in the young men tested, and 62% in the elderly subjects. In addition, Letrozole also significantly increased LH levels to a whopping 339 and 323% in the young and the elderly, respectively and Testosterone by 146 and 99%, respectively. (3) Letrozole was also able to produce a peak LH response to Gonadatropin Releasing Hormone equal to a 152 and 52% increase from baseline in either young or older men, respectively.

As you can see, Letrozole is a very powerful drug, and as a result, only very tiny doses are necessary. An effective daily dose of Letrozole for most people is usually about .25-.5mg/day, even though clinically, it is typically used at 2.5mgs/day. Twenty micrograms of Letro was enough, in one study done on men, to reduce estrogen levels by almost a third. (4)

Letrozole’s effects on cholesterol are, really difficult to pin down precisely. They are, in the words of one researcher: "inconsistent.” I can tell you that in my opinion, reducing your bodies estrogen to virtually nothing, will eventually take its toll on your cholesterol profile, and will kill your sex drive and your joints- all of which require estrogen to function safely and effectively.

Even if you take very low doses of Letrozole, it will build up to reasonable blood plasma levels, as it has a 2-4 day half-life, and this long half life also means you need to take Letrozole for 60 days to get a steady blood plasma level (5), and that it will take a very long time to clear out of your system.

Letrozole is the only pharmacological “cure” for gyno that I know of to have ever worked in bodybuilders. In a study conducted on rodents, Letrozole was able to effectively destroy breast tissue tumors (6), and it’s also been effective on many bodybuilders who have used it to eliminate an existing case of gynocomastia. In my case, I used Letro to get rid of my own gyno, by starting with a dose of 2.5mgs/day and then lowering it by .25mcgs per week once my symptoms abated.

With regards to using this stuff on a cycle, unless you are extremely gyno prone, or need to reduce estrogen levels to virtually nothing (for a bodybuilding contest or whatever), it’s going to be too powerful for most people. Male and female competitors typically use it to get the last bits of estrogen related water retention out of them during the final weeks of contest preparation. But when used on a typical cycle, Letro is generally overkill unless a ripped look with zero water and estrogen is desired or if the user is prone to gyno.

References:

1. Clin Cancer Res. 2005 Apr 15;11(8):2809-21.

2. Epilepsy Behav. 2004 Apr;5(2):260-3

3. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Oct;90(10):5717-22. Epub 2005 Jul Comparative assessment in young and elderly men of the gonadotropin response to aromatase inhibition. T'Sjoen GG, Giagulli VA, Delva H, Crabbe P, De Bacquer D, Kaufman JM.

4. Open dose-finding study of a new potent and selective nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitor, CGS 20 267[Letrozole], in healthy male subjects PF Trunet, P Mueller, AS Bhatnagar, I Dickes, G Monnet and G White Research and Development Department, CIBA-GEIGY Limited, Basel, Switzerland>.

5. Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S. Department of Endocrinology, Ghent University Hospital, De Pintelaan 185, 9000 Ghent, Belgium

6. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2001 Dec;79(1-5):27-34. Aromatase overexpression transgenic mice model: cell type specific expression and use of letrozole to abrogate mammary hyperplasia without affecting normal physiology

[Lucky1]

...an article from (http://www.isteroids.com/steroids/Letrozole-Femara.html) inside that link

Nice find!!!

[JanSz]

I'm going to push my doctor, after my next blood test.

I was reading on another forum, and someone mentioned at, Adex has alot of side effects, he recommended one that starts with an L, like Loz....Not sure the name, but he said it had no side effects like Adex.

Femara (letrozole)

Letrozole is a nonsteroidal competitive inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme system; it inhibits the
conversion of androgens to estrogens. In adult nontumor- and tumor-bearing female animals, letrozole
is as effective as ovariectomy in reducing uterine weight, elevating serum LH, and causing the
regression of estrogen-dependent tumors. In contrast to ovariectomy, treatment with letrozole does not
lead to an increase in serum FSH. Letrozole selectively inhibits gonadal steroidogenesis but has no
significant effect on adrenal mineralocorticoid or glucocorticoid synthesis.
Letrozole inhibits the aromatase enzyme by competitively binding to the heme of the cytochrome P450
subunit of the enzyme, resulting in a reduction of estrogen biosynthesis in all tissues. Treatment of
women with letrozole significantly lowers serum estrone, estradiol and estrone sulfate and has not
been shown to significantly affect adrenal corticosteroid synthesis, aldosterone synthesis, or synthesis
of thyroid hormones.


Pharmacokinetics
Letrozole is rapidly and completely absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract and absorption is not
affected by food. It is metabolized slowly to an inactive metabolite whose glucuronide conjugate is
excreted renally, representing the major clearance pathway. About 90% of radiolabeled letrozole is
recovered in urine. Letrozole’s terminal elimination half-life is about 2 days and steady-state plasma
concentration after daily 2.5 mg dosing is reached in 2-6 weeks. Plasma concentrations at steady state
are 1.5 to 2 times higher than predicted from the concentrations measured after a single dose,
indicating a slight non-linearity in the pharmacokinetics of letrozole upon daily administration of 2.5
mg. These steady-state levels are maintained over extended periods, however, and continuous
accumulation of letrozole does not occur. Letrozole is weakly protein bound and has a large volume of
distribution (approximately 1.9 L/kg).

[Lucky1]

Femara (letrozole)

Letrozole is a nonsteroidal competitive inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme system; it inhibits the
conversion of androgens to estrogens. In adult nontumor- and tumor-bearing female animals, letrozole
is as effective as ovariectomy in reducing uterine weight, elevating serum LH, and causing the
regression of estrogen-dependent tumors. In contrast to ovariectomy, treatment with letrozole does not
lead to an increase in serum FSH. Letrozole selectively inhibits gonadal steroidogenesis but has no
significant effect on adrenal mineralocorticoid or glucocorticoid synthesis.
Letrozole inhibits the aromatase enzyme by competitively binding to the heme of the cytochrome P450
subunit of the enzyme, resulting in a reduction of estrogen biosynthesis in all tissues. Treatment of
women with letrozole significantly lowers serum estrone, estradiol and estrone sulfate and has not
been shown to significantly affect adrenal corticosteroid synthesis, aldosterone synthesis, or synthesis
of thyroid hormones.


Pharmacokinetics
Letrozole is rapidly and completely absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract and absorption is not
affected by food. It is metabolized slowly to an inactive metabolite whose glucuronide conjugate is
excreted renally, representing the major clearance pathway. About 90% of radiolabeled letrozole is
recovered in urine. Letrozole’s terminal elimination half-life is about 2 days and steady-state plasma
concentration after daily 2.5 mg dosing is reached in 2-6 weeks. Plasma concentrations at steady state
are 1.5 to 2 times higher than predicted from the concentrations measured after a single dose,
indicating a slight non-linearity in the pharmacokinetics of letrozole upon daily administration of 2.5
mg. These steady-state levels are maintained over extended periods, however, and continuous
accumulation of letrozole does not occur. Letrozole is weakly protein bound and has a large volume of
distribution (approximately 1.9 L/kg).

JanSz, have you tried Letrozole?

[chilln]

I was reading on another forum, and someone mentioned at, Adex has alot of side effects


Lucky1, please read the following discussion about the effects and side effects of arimidex very carefully:

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45732&postcount=26

.

[hebsie]

JanSz, have you tried Letrozole?

...I can remember tons of discussion comparing A-dex to Letro over at T-Nation. The general consensus, Letro can be very hard to dose and different people can respond quite differently. Some sample quotes (just random selections)


Letrozole reacts differently in different people, whereas adex has a more predictable dosing pattern - thus the receommendations of the dosing of adex will likely work for most - but it is harder to recommend dosing of letrozole as some respond to a much lower dosage than others... some use upto 0.5mg a day on cycle and some use as little as 0.0625mg/day.

It is partly due to libido and gyno, water and mood changes but regular blood tests are the way to go (with any cycle and AI use really) especially with letrozole, as it has been shown to reduce estrogen levels by 98%, which causes many unwanted side effects.


i like adex, less chance of knocking your E too low and easier to get the right dose IMO


Unless you are extremely prone to gyno, then IMO adex is better, simply because, as others have pointed out, it is more 'forgiving' (for want of a better word, lol). So you can tinker with the dose as a beginner and find your 'sweet spot' more easily, than with letro.


IMO letro should only be used to combat developing or existing gyno, or be used by very gyno prone individuals.

a-dex is easier to dose, and as ***** mentioned, easier to find that "sweet spot". it's a better option for the majority of users.


Letro is difficult to dose - and i dont necessarily mean physically.

It is unpredictable in that in some it causes near total suppression of aromatase in doses of <100mcg. In others it takes more.

I use it so i can tell you what works for me but in all honesty it does not mean it will be a correct dosing practice for you. Trial and error will have to be your guide, and i hope you are adept at recognising the symptoms of both high estrogen and low estrogen in order to evaluate your dosing correctly.

So nothing scientific, just some random opinions from some random users...hebs :cool:

[Lucky1]

Lucky1, please read the following discussion about the effects and side effects of arimidex very carefully:

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45732&postcount=26

.

Nice. I'm looking for some back-up, so I can suggest the correct AI, just in case my doc has another idea. I think he is against them altogether, but we will see.

Thanks for the input!

[Lucky1]

...I can remember tons of discussion comparing A-dex to Letro over at T-Nation. The general consensus, Letro can be very hard to dose and different people can respond quite differently. Some sample quotes (just random selections)










So nothing scientific, just some random opinions from some random users...hebs :cool:


More back-up.

Thanks, hebsie

[JanSz]

JanSz, have you tried Letrozole?

I did not use Letrozole.

Chilln sums it up real well.

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=45732&postcount=26

....
I would add,
design your TRT schedule so as to minimize E2 problems.

frequent T applications
reasonable HCG dose
help in keeping E2 in check.

//

[seekonk]

Letrozole’s terminal elimination half-life is about 2 days and steady-state plasma
concentration after daily 2.5 mg dosing is reached in 2-6 weeks.

That makes absolutely no sense.

You should be pretty close to steady state after about 4 half lives.