Melatonin discussion

[Wise Guy]

Both. You want to increase your endogenous production of melatonin, but also most likely supplement.

To increase endogenous production of melatonin, that would require its parent upstream amino acid building block, which is 5 HTP.

To administer exogenous production of melatonin, simply take melatonin.

[Cajun]

This is very interesting.

I have to run back to work so I can't research now, but I'm wondering how much endogenous melatonin we produce.

Dr. Reiter is apparently THE melatonin expert so it's wise to listen to him... But wow that's a big dose :)

(I believe we produce approximately 300 mcg per night vs 15 mg (15000 mcg) - Approximately 50 times. - Original )

>>

Updated per Wise Guy 25 mcg vs 15000 mcg - 600 times...... >> Wow

[Wise Guy]

I believe we produce approximately 300 mcg per night vs 15 mg (15000 mcg) - Approximately 50 times.

Nope - way less than that.

Try 25 mcg. :biggrin:

[Nuclear]

Has anyone been able to find 15mg sublingual melatonin?

[LowT]

Source Naturals makes a 3mg timed-release version that I just purchased. Haven't tried it yet though.

Would timed release be more ideal for melatonin?

[LowT]

To increase endogenous production of melatonin, that would require its parent upstream amino acid building block, which is 5 HTP.

To administer exogenous production of melatonin, simply take melatonin.

Interesting...I've takin 5-htp before bed and it gives me incredible dreams. I've never stayed on it long term though because I wasn't sure if there were risks with using it every night.

[garcia]

Would timed release be more ideal for melatonin?

Yes definitely as it would more closely mimic natural physiology. Also from my own experiments I just don't feel good on non-timed release. Tend to wake up during the night for a start.

[Nuclear]

Same here on waking during the night on SR melatonin. I also feel groggy during the day on the SR.



Yes definitely as it would more closely mimic natural physiology. Also from my own experiments I just don't feel good on non-timed release. Tend to wake up during the night for a start.

[foobar16]

I wake during the night using time-release and sleep much better with a single 15mg SL dose. I still need to watch the lecture, but maybe some of us need the big "clock-setting" pulse all at once, while others benefit more from melatonin's other effects via a sustained rise? I've had problems with circadian rhythm and sleep in the past, so maybe that's why I like a quicker pulse of the stuff to set my body clocks. Others may not need that.

[Bulldog]

I wake during the night using time-release and sleep much better with a single 15mg SL dose. I still need to watch the lecture, but maybe some of us need the big "clock-setting" pulse all at once, while others benefit more from melatonin's other effects via a sustained rise? I've had problems with circadian rhythm and sleep in the past, so maybe that's why I like a quicker pulse of the stuff to set my body clocks. Others may not need that.

Where are you finding 15mg SL melatonin? The largerst SL I've seen is only 5mg.

[foobar16]

I've been placing a bunch of lower-dose pills under my tongue at once to get up to 15mg SL. Surprisingly, I don't have trouble fitting it all :huh:.

[Wise Guy]

Thanks for chopping this together Chilln.

Dr J, why do you prefer the Sub Lingual?

[Dr. John Crisler]

Thanks for chopping this together Chilln.

Dr J, why do you prefer the Sub Lingual?Ab-so-friggin-lutely! Like night and day.

15mg is SL dose.

I will see if I can talk Dr. Reiter into letting me post his lecture. Totally rocked!

[JanSz]

I've been placing a bunch of lower-dose pills under my tongue at once to get up to 15mg SL. Surprisingly, I don't have trouble fitting it all :huh:.

Was that the Source Naturals 3mg timed-release variety,
or something else?

....

[JanSz]

Every living thing on earth produces melatonin.

Our bodies evolved to follow the natural day/night rythm of light and dark. NO ONE gets to live in a synchronous state these days. Evidence this forced schedule negatively affects our health is provided by the fact those on night shifts are sicker, with increased risk of cancer. And blind women have about 1/3 less risk of breast CA than the sighted. The only difference we can find, beside their vision status, is they produce much more melatonin.

I have upped my dose to 15mg SL before retiring, based upon Dr. Reiter's recomendations.

That is interesting.

In his presentation dr Reiter mention that we have separate rods in our eyes that helps in regulating melatonin.
They work in narrow band of 460-480nm (slide #10 of presentation, attached)

He specifically mentioned that blind people's melatonin production is regulated the same way as in people with intact sight.

But that was in his:
April 24, 2009 3:30pm - 4:00pm
GS01o - The End of Night: Potential Impact on Cancer Incidence
Conference: A4M Orlando 2009

presentation, possibly there is more development since that presentation was made.
or my misunderstanding.
...

[Drew]

Every living thing on earth produces melatonin.

Our bodies evolved to follow the natural day/night rythm of light and dark. NO ONE gets to live in a synchronous state these days. Evidence this forced schedule negatively affects our health is provided by the fact those on night shifts are sicker, with increased risk of cancer. And blind women have about 1/3 less risk of breast CA than the sighted. The only difference we can find, beside their vision status, is they produce much more melatonin.

I have upped my dose to 15mg SL before retiring, based upon Dr. Reiter's recomendations.

Where do you get sl melatonin in doses like that? Wouldn't you have to take multiple pills? I suppose you could get it compounded...

[bee2184]

JanSz,
Please elaborate, do you feel exposure to a 460nm wavelength increases natural production of Melatonin?

[Nuclear]

I have been able to find a quick dissolving 5mg SL formulation. I'm not sure I should mention the vendor here. It may be against the rules. PM me if you wish or the mods can let me know if it is ok. I'll be trying it tonight.

[TryingToFix]

One of Dr. Reiter's presentations from early 2009 is on Instatapes in the free lecture section. Talks more about the cycle through the day, amount of light that displaces melatonin and affects on cancer. Did not go into supplementation.

Looks like getting up in the middle of the night to pee may be killing me.

[Wise Guy]

I have been able to find a quick dissolving 5mg SL formulation. I'm not sure I should mention the vendor here. It may be against the rules. PM me if you wish or the mods can let me know if it is ok. I'll be trying it tonight.

Throw it up

[Nuclear]

5mg SL quick dissolving tablets are available at GNC.

GNC Melatonin 5000 Zipmelt (http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3549426)

[JanSz]

JanSz,
Please elaborate, do you feel exposure to a 460nm wavelength increases natural production of Melatonin?

Per my understanding of his lecture,

blind people still have 460-480nm light sensitivity
and
therefore their body are still able to react properly to dark/light changes.

during darkness we produce melatonin
during light we do not

From pov of melatonin production, light=blue light. (My own (JanSz) interpretation).




Color ||| Wavelength ||| Frequency
violet ||| 380–450*nm ||| 668–789*THz
blue ||| 450–495*nm ||| 606–668*THz
green ||| 495–570*nm ||| 526–606*THz
yellow ||| 570–590*nm ||| 508–526*THz
orange ||| 590–620*nm ||| 484–508*THz
red ||| 620–750*nm ||| 400–484*THz


------------------------------------
But within a year time lots can change in research area.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Looks like the blue light spectrum may be suspect.

Lets assume (for a moment) that we do not have separate light cones for the blue light.

Blue light at night still may be the most distrupting for melatonin production.

Not to many night lights or clocks with blue digits.
But my clock in bedroom have green digits (close to blue vawelenght.

I thing I will have to finish boarding up my bedroom and make it to a legal darkroom.
Also, only red lights allowed, as in my old (black& white) photography days.

That should help during my nightly bathroom trips.

I have newer developed color pictures, what lights are allowed in color dark room??

..............

[Nuclear]

I don't know if anyone posted this link. The lecture is about 30 minutes long. I'm sure you will find it interesting.

Subject: The End of Night: Potential Impact on Cancer Incidence
Speaker(s): Russel J. Reiter, PhD
Date/Time: 4/24/2009 3:34:38 PM
Description: This lecture will discuss the effect of artificial light on the circadian rhythms and the production of melatonin by the pineal gland.

The End of Night (http://progressive.uvault.com/pd1005/A4M091/Reiter/player.htm)

You need to watch it using internet explorer.

[JanSz]

I don't know if anyone posted this link. The lecture is about 30 minutes long. I'm sure you will find it interesting.

Subject: The End of Night: Potential Impact on Cancer Incidence
Speaker(s): Russel J. Reiter, PhD
Date/Time: 4/24/2009 3:34:38 PM
Description: This lecture will discuss the effect of artificial light on the circadian rhythms and the production of melatonin by the pineal gland.

The End of Night (http://progressive.uvault.com/pd1005/A4M091/Reiter/player.htm)

You need to watch it using internet explorer.

This is the same presentation I mentioned in my earlier post.

The slide I attached is in group #2 upper left.

...

[GirlyMan]

I have 3 mg melatonin tablets w/ theanine from Schiff. I also have a die. I roll it every night and let it determine my dosage between 3-18 mg. I am considering expanding this approach to other supplements.

[crazycrew]

Last night I took 10mg melatonin before bed. Slept like a rock, woke up nearly motovated and got a few things done today, But I also took 6.25 ambien CR.

[Wise Guy]

I have 3 mg melatonin tablets w/ theanine from Schiff. I also have a die. I roll it every night and let it determine my dosage between 3-18 mg. I am considering expanding this approach to other supplements.

:cheers2:

You never cease to crack me up and amuse me at the same time. I can relate to your devil may care apathetic attitude, LOL.

[Drew]

I have to admit, I will be trying these kinds of doses with SL melatonin soon. Regular extended-release melatonin in pill form, 1-2mg per night leaves me feeling like I've been run over by a truck in the morning (probably because of it's long duration, which is then avoided with a SL). I'm not quite caught up on the biochemistry involved with the larger doses, however, I will probably be starting off with 5mg SL, working my way up to 15.

[Nuclear]

I tried the 5mg SL GNC product last night along with the GHRP6. I felt fantastic all day. No trouble waking in the morning and extremley sharp mentally all day long.

The tablet disintegrated quickly and tasted fine.

[GirlyMan]

I have 3 mg melatonin tablets w/ theanine from Schiff. I also have a die. I roll it every night and let it determine my dosage between 3-18 mg. I am considering expanding this approach to other supplements.


:cheers2:

You never cease to crack me up and amuse me at the same time. I can relate to your devil may care apathetic attitude, LOL.

Yeah, I crack me up too. But I am serious. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna expand this approach to both my Androgel dosage (4-8 pumps/day) and my simvastatin dosage (10-40 mg/day). I think the body becomes accustomed to routine too readily. I'm gonna try to keep it on it's toes.

[EIC]

Yeah, I crack me up too. But I am serious. I'm pretty sure I'm gonna expand this approach to both my Androgel dosage (4-8 pumps/day) and my simvastatin dosage (10-40 mg/day). I think the body becomes accustomed to routine too readily. I'm gonna try to keep it on it's toes.

Careful. The body thrives on regularity. Maintaining homeostasis is one of the body's central goals.

[GirlyMan]

Careful. The body thrives on regularity. Maintaining homeostasis is one of the body's central goals.

Yeah, that's what I'm barkin' against. I want to force it to work to maintain homeostasis instead of just giving it stability. Otherwise it's just gonna get lazy.

[Nuclear]

I see melatonin quick dissolve strips for SL use. Interesting idea but a little pricey.

[JanSz]

very bright lights right after wakeup
darkroom when hitting the sheets

=====================================
For a moment I was thinking of taking some of my T3 at my bed time, bad move, T3 raises temperature.

Melatonin’s effect on body temperature may be one of the keys of its ability
to enhance sleep. Body temperature follows a circadian rhythm, rising during
the day and falling at night. The daily temperature variation in the human
body is only about 1 degree, but this small difference has a dramatic influence
on sleep. In general, a falling body temperature induces sleep, while
a rising body temperature provokes wakefulness. It has been demonstrated
that an individual will fall asleep most quickly and stay asleep the
longest when lights are out, and the body temperature undergoes its most
rapid decline.51
Sleep
Patients with delayed sleep phase insomnia cannot sleep until the early
hours of morning, and often end up sleeping through much of the day. This
condition has been treated successfully with exposure to bright light in the
early morning to induce phase advances of the clock. An evening dose of 5
mg of melatonin at 11:00 p.m. has also been shown to advance sleep time
significantly.52 A combination of both methods—timed application of bright
light in the morning and a dose of melatonin in the evening—seems to be
the most effective therapy for treating melatonin rhythm disturbances.
Melatonin has not only been shown to advance sleep time, but to increase
sleep duration as well.53 It is also effective in reducing the symptoms of jet
lag.54 One


https://www.genovadiagnostics.com/files/profile_assets/referenced_materials/Melatonin-App%20Guide.pdf

[Nuclear]

It's been two days on the SL 5mg and I'm liking it very much. I wake up well rested and feel great all day.

[LowT]

very bright lights right after wakeup
darkroom when hitting the sheets

=====================================
For a moment I was thinking of taking some of my T3 at my bed time, bad move, T3 raises temperature.

Melatonin’s effect on body temperature may be one of the keys of its ability
to enhance sleep. Body temperature follows a circadian rhythm, rising during
the day and falling at night. The daily temperature variation in the human
body is only about 1 degree, but this small difference has a dramatic influence
on sleep. In general, a falling body temperature induces sleep, while
a rising body temperature provokes wakefulness. It has been demonstrated
that an individual will fall asleep most quickly and stay asleep the
longest when lights are out, and the body temperature undergoes its most
rapid decline.51
Sleep
Patients with delayed sleep phase insomnia cannot sleep until the early
hours of morning, and often end up sleeping through much of the day. This
condition has been treated successfully with exposure to bright light in the
early morning to induce phase advances of the clock. An evening dose of 5
mg of melatonin at 11:00 p.m. has also been shown to advance sleep time
significantly.52 A combination of both methods—timed application of bright
light in the morning and a dose of melatonin in the evening—seems to be
the most effective therapy for treating melatonin rhythm disturbances.
Melatonin has not only been shown to advance sleep time, but to increase
sleep duration as well.53 It is also effective in reducing the symptoms of jet
lag.54 One


https://www.genovadiagnostics.com/files/profile_assets/referenced_materials/Melatonin-App%20Guide.pdf

If I recall, the body produces most of its T3 during sleep.

[smitty4]

Like others, I am interested in Dr. John's recommendations regarding Melatonin, but I am going to wait until I hear what they are before I start taking 10mg or 15mg per night. Dr. John indicated that those were the doses that were recommended for HIM and they could have been based on his individual situation. Of course he may very well recommend those doses for everyone, but I wait patiently until I hear from him...

[STM]

I've been taking Melatonin on and off for the past 18 months (3mg) and very regularly an hour before bed over the last 6 months.

Over the last 4 months I've noticed a drastic decrease in libido, erection quality, and complete lack of morning wood. Not knowing what caused this I simply shrugged it off as stress from work.

Until I read about the melatonin side effects. Numerous animal studies testing melatonin use in hamsters, quail, and rats equate synthetic melatonin administration with shrinking reproductive organs. This happens through the GnRH inhibiting hormone (GnIH). GnIH levels are drastically raised (3 times) through an increase in melatonin levels. This action happens in the pituitary gland.

With more GnIH in your body LH/FSH levels drop, leading to a drop in sperm count and Testosterone.

In human studies Melatonin has been proven to reduce LH levels and essentially drop some male's sperm counts to 0. In addition, when boys go through puberty their natural melatonin secretion reduces by 75%, allowing for an increase in testosterone.

My question, has anyone else noticed these sides with long term (6 months+) use. If so can I expect my T levels (and libido) to return to normal now that I've stopped using melatonin (been off 1 week)?

I think the answer is maybe, just like someone coming off a steroid cycle.

It make sense to me that after artificially lowering your T levels over an extended period of time the pituitary gland may choose to raise the GnRH levels with the absence of the GnIH (from melatonin) but could just as easily have adjusted to the new lower levels and not raise production even though the culprit for the lower levels (melatonin and GnIH) is no longer there.

Thanks for any feedback! This issue has me very worried as it affects my fertility, libido, and T levels.

[Nuclear]

Can you post any references for the side effects?

[STM]

Regarding melatonin and infertility/impotence here are a few articles that got me scared.

Prior to finding these I noticed sexual issues in myself after 6 months of regular use on 3 mg, and 18 months of sporadic use (no morning wood, lower quality erection, more effort to get aroused).

Melatonin seems to increase levels of the GnRH inhibiting hormone to levels high enough to lower LH enough to end sperm production and drastically lower testosterone.

Just received my serum testosterone level test results: 348 (range 132-813)

My big question is, would it be reasonable to expect levels to return to normal after cessation of melatonin?

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/23/4/572

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-02/08/content_415924.htm

[Nuclear]

Thanks for posting the articles. I don't know the answers to your questions. Perhaps someone else does....


Regarding melatonin and infertility/impotence here are a few articles that got me scared.

Prior to finding these I noticed sexual issues in myself after 6 months of regular use on 3 mg, and 18 months of sporadic use (no morning wood, lower quality erection, more effort to get aroused).

Melatonin seems to increase levels of the GnRH inhibiting hormone to levels high enough to lower LH enough to end sperm production and drastically lower testosterone.

Just received my serum testosterone level test results: 348 (range 132-813)

My big question is, would it be reasonable to expect levels to return to normal after cessation of melatonin?

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/23/4/572

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-02/08/content_415924.htm

[Wise Guy]

Melatonin seems to increase levels of the GnRH inhibiting hormone to levels high enough to lower LH enough to end sperm production and drastically lower testosterone.

Just received my serum testosterone level test results: 348 (range 132-813)

My big question is, would it be reasonable to expect levels to return to normal after cessation of melatonin?

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/23/4/572

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-02/08/content_415924.htm

GnRH - The first study made no mention of it. In fact, it showed melatonin to act w/ some AI properties, and boost testosterone

"These coincided with a decline in seminal plasma and serum E2 levels and with an increase in testosterone:E2 ratios. Six months after the cessation of melatonin, sperm concentration and motility were normal in 1 man but remained abnormal in the other one with a still elevated testosterone:E2 ratio. Serum gonadotropin levels were unchanged during the study in all 8 men. Our preliminary observations suggest that long-term melatonin administration is associated with decreased semen quality in a number of healthy men, probably through the inhibition of aromatase at the testicular level."

The second study is completely silly.

They removed all melatonin-producing organs from the birds -- the eyes and the pineal glands -- and found GnIH levels fell. When they gave the birds melatonin, levels of GnIH went back up.

Gee, LOL, lets re-read that again.

They removed, completely, the pineal gland. They noticed that GnRH dropped.

Then they gave them melatonin, and GnRH levels rose.....Hmmmmm.....Doesn't take much of a deductive leap to think that administration of a hormone that is part and parcel of the pineal gland might boost substrate hormones.

[garcia]

In 6 men, there was no change in semen quality or in serum and seminal plasma hormone levels during the study period. In 2 men, during the melatonin treatment period, sperm concentration decreased to 3 x 106/mL and 12 x 106/mL, and motility declined to 32% and 30%. These coincided with a decline in seminal plasma and serum E2 levels and with an increase in testosterone:E2 ratios. Six months after the cessation of melatonin, sperm concentration and motility were normal in 1 man but remained abnormal in the other one with a still elevated testosterone:E2 ratio. Serum gonadotropin levels were unchanged during the study in all 8 men. Our preliminary observations suggest that long-term melatonin administration is associated with decreased semen quality in a number of healthy men, probably through the inhibition of aromatase at the testicular level.

Agree with Wiseguy.

Also the first study states in 6 of the 8 men there was absolutely no change! So surely the take-home message should be melatonin doesn't (adversely) affect semen quality!

2 guys showed a negative change, one of whom still had the negative change even 6 months after stopping melatonin. Surely this strongly suggests that some other factor was at play and not the melatonin??

Its an interesting topic, but this study is extremely poor and argues the opposite of what they claim.

[Wise Guy]

Agree with Wiseguy.

Also the first study states in 6 of the 8 men there was absolutely no change! So surely the take-home message should be melatonin doesn't (adversely) affect semen quality!

2 guys showed a negative change, one of whom still had the negative change even 6 months after stopping melatonin. Surely this strongly suggests that some other factor was at play and not the melatonin??

Its an interesting topic, but this study is extremely poor and argues the opposite of what they claim.

Right. Sometimes I'm just baffled when people post up silly studies they find on the net, and lack an ability to even interpret them (or even read them for that matter)

[hormoneman]

I'll move this to this thread

testosterone substitution treatment lowers melatonin levels

1)http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/reprint/137/1/48.pdf

Conclusions: These data indicate that diminished testosterone in male primary hypogonadism is associated with enhanced plasma levels of melatonin, and that testosterone substitution treatment induces a deamplification of the circadian rhythm of melatonin values in humans.

2) http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/2/770

These data indicate that male patients with GnRH deficiency have increased nocturnal melatonin secretion. T treatment decreased melatonin secretion to normal levels. The results suggest that in GnRH-deficient male patients, sex steroids, rather than LH, modulate pineal melatonin in a reverse fashion.

3) http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/11/1819

4) http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/15/1/60

Long-term melatonin administration does not alter pituitary-gonadal hormone secretion in normal men

[Wise Guy]

I'll move this to this thread

testosterone substitution treatment lowers melatonin levels

1)http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/reprint/137/1/48.pdf

Conclusions: These data indicate that diminished testosterone in male primary hypogonadism is associated with enhanced plasma levels of melatonin, and that testosterone substitution treatment induces a deamplification of the circadian rhythm of melatonin values in humans.

2) http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/81/2/770

These data indicate that male patients with GnRH deficiency have increased nocturnal melatonin secretion. T treatment decreased melatonin secretion to normal levels. The results suggest that in GnRH-deficient male patients, sex steroids, rather than LH, modulate pineal melatonin in a reverse fashion.

3) http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/8/11/1819

4) http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/15/1/60

Long-term melatonin administration does not alter pituitary-gonadal hormone secretion in normal men

Good studies hormoneman.

Do you think that in the presence of diminished sex steroid production, the pineal gland overcompensates for repairs/functions by cranking out melatonin in the presence of low T, similar to cholesterol production?

Meaning, when in the presence of low T, the HTPA will send a signal to the liver to produce more cholesterol in a futile attempt to get more steroid building blocks. This is why many older people get high cholesterol levels, regardless of diet. This is also why TRT can improve cholesterol markers.

Perhaps it also sends a signal to the pineal gland to crank out more melatonin in an attempt to get more sex steroids/more overnight repair as well.

Interesting.

[josh]

I have newer developed color pictures, what lights are allowed in color dark room??


Red.

[smitty4]

I sure would like to hear what Dr. John's suggests regarding melatonin...

[Wise Guy]

I sure would like to hear what Dr. John's suggests regarding melatonin...

I'm sure it would probably depend on the person and what else they are taking and their corresponding labs. Who knows.

But I remember a couple weeks ago when he had me and Bobby over for beers, he spoke quite a bit about melatonin and the lecture he seen about it in Mexico i believe.

I specifically remembering him mentioning that lately he has been using 3 5mg SL tablets every night. (15mg total)

[smitty4]

I'm sure it would probably depend on the person and what else they are taking and their corresponding labs. Who knows.

But I remember a couple weeks ago when he had me and Bobby over for beers, he spoke quite a bit about melatonin and the lecture he seen about it in Mexico i believe.

I specifically remembering him mentioning that lately he has been using 3 5mg SL tablets every night. (15mg total)

That is what had me so interested. He mentioned that Dr. Russel Reiter gave a great presentation and that he was using 15mg sublingual. Given the body makes what...25mcg per day, that is an interesting dose. I am sure you are correct that it would patient specific, but I would love to hear the theory behing the dosing.

[LowT]

I think my melatonin experimentation is over for now. I usually have no trouble falling asleep but often have trouble staying asleep.

I tried source naturals brand 3mg timed-release melatonin for a few days. All it did was make me feel hungover each morning, I did not want to get out of bed.

Next was source naturals 5mg sublingual. I took one of these before bed. The first day I took it I noticed nothing out of the ordinary good or bad.

Night two I experienced multiple nightmares...I NEVER have nightmares. Occasionally I get what I would call unpleasant dreams about falling etc. but I easily shake them off once I wake. At this point I just thought the nightmares strange but did not connect it to the melatonin.

Night three I forgot to take it. Normal sleep.

Night four I tried the 5mg sublingual again and had numerous nightmares throughout the night and uneven sleep. Again, maybe because I did not take it every day I did not immediately connect this to the melatonin. I discontinued it for a few days after this.

A few days later I decided to try 10mg of the sublingual and had what I can only describe as severe night terrors. I woke in absolute panic with my pulse racing. I've never experienced this at any point in my life. It took me a good hour to fall asleep again.

Since stopping the melatonin I have not experienced this again...

I think I'm done with it for now.

[GirlyMan]

I usually have no trouble falling asleep but often have trouble staying asleep.

I had this bad prior to TRT. Woke up for years after about 4-5 hours and just lay there, not asleep. The only thing that worked for me then was an old school, mid-acting benzo called temazepam. Great friggin' sleep. Glad I don't need it anymore.

[Katzenjammer]

I think my melatonin experimentation is over for now. I usually have no trouble falling asleep but often have trouble staying asleep.

I tried source naturals brand 3mg timed-release melatonin for a few days. All it did was make me feel hungover each morning, I did not want to get out of bed.

Next was source naturals 5mg sublingual. I took one of these before bed. The first day I took it I noticed nothing out of the ordinary good or bad.

Night two I experienced multiple nightmares...I NEVER have nightmares. Occasionally I get what I would call unpleasant dreams about falling etc. but I easily shake them off once I wake. At this point I just thought the nightmares strange but did not connect it to the melatonin.

Night three I forgot to take it. Normal sleep.

Night four I tried the 5mg sublingual again and had numerous nightmares throughout the night and uneven sleep. Again, maybe because I did not take it every day I did not immediately connect this to the melatonin. I discontinued it for a few days after this.

A few days later I decided to try 10mg of the sublingual and had what I can only describe as severe night terrors. I woke in absolute panic with my pulse racing. I've never experienced this at any point in my life. It took me a good hour to fall asleep again.

Since stopping the melatonin I have not experienced this again...

I think I'm done with it for now.

Maybe you're taking too much? Too much can cause major depression in some; and a kind of wired/night terror thing like you describe.

1.5 mg of slow release melatonin with .5 mg. of quick release is what I take. Sleep like a baby.

[Drew]

I think my melatonin experimentation is over for now. I usually have no trouble falling asleep but often have trouble staying asleep.

I tried source naturals brand 3mg timed-release melatonin for a few days. All it did was make me feel hungover each morning, I did not want to get out of bed.

Next was source naturals 5mg sublingual. I took one of these before bed. The first day I took it I noticed nothing out of the ordinary good or bad.

Night two I experienced multiple nightmares...I NEVER have nightmares. Occasionally I get what I would call unpleasant dreams about falling etc. but I easily shake them off once I wake. At this point I just thought the nightmares strange but did not connect it to the melatonin.

Night three I forgot to take it. Normal sleep.

Night four I tried the 5mg sublingual again and had numerous nightmares throughout the night and uneven sleep. Again, maybe because I did not take it every day I did not immediately connect this to the melatonin. I discontinued it for a few days after this.

A few days later I decided to try 10mg of the sublingual and had what I can only describe as severe night terrors. I woke in absolute panic with my pulse racing. I've never experienced this at any point in my life. It took me a good hour to fall asleep again.

Since stopping the melatonin I have not experienced this again...

I think I'm done with it for now.

I used to have trouble with melatonin as well (it made me feel hungover in the morning). Dr. John's melatonin post convinced me to try the sublingual route. I've settled at 10mg SL of Source Naturals before bed. I have no hungover feeling in the morning, and I sleep very well. Those extended release tablets are BAD news for me.

[LowT]

I used to have trouble with melatonin as well (it made me feel hungover in the morning). Dr. John's melatonin post convinced me to try the sublingual route. I've settled at 10mg SL of Source Naturals before bed. I have no hungover feeling in the morning, and I sleep very well. Those extended release tablets are BAD news for me.

Ya, that's the same dose and brand that gave me night terrors...I'm not sure why but am not eager to try again.

[Nuclear]

I used to have trouble with melatonin as well (it made me feel hungover in the morning). Dr. John's melatonin post convinced me to try the sublingual route. I've settled at 10mg SL of Source Naturals before bed. I have no hungover feeling in the morning, and I sleep very well. Those extended release tablets are BAD news for me.

Likewise on the extended release. I felt hungover. I am really doing well with the SL. Currently using 5mg. It is especially good when I change shifts. I get excellent rest. Any dreams that I can recall are pleasant.

[Nuclear]

Some reading material:

NIH Article on Melatonin (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=hserta&part=A173038)

[Nuclear]

Has anyone researched the effect melatonin has on aromatase and estrogen? I'm beginning to feel low e2 symptoms.

[chilln]

Has anyone researched the effect melatonin has on aromatase and estrogen? I'm beginning to feel low e2 symptoms.

I can think of three or four complex scenarios where this may happen, but they're too complex to discuss in hypothetical terms.

You'll need to discuss your labs, other symptoms, and the results of your latest therapteutic testing (dosage response trials), in a separate thread.

From a labs perspective, I'm specifically going to discuss thyroid and cortisol, so if you have cortisol and thyroid labs, please make sure to include them.

But let's not hijack this thread, so publish what you have on a new thread.

.

[Nuclear]

I can think of three or four complex scenarios where this may happen, but they're too complex to discuss in hypothetical terms.

You'll need to discuss your labs, other symptoms, and the results of your latest therapteutic testing (dosage response trials), in a separate thread.

From a labs perspective, I'm specifically going to discuss thyroid and cortisol, so if you have cortisol and thyroid labs, please make sure to include them.

But let's not hijack this thread, so publish what you have on a new thread.

.

Rather than begin a new thread, I'd like to open the topic of melatonin's effect on aromatase. Has anyone knowledge on this?

[Dr. John Crisler]

Source Naturals makes a 3mg timed-release version that I just purchased. Haven't tried it yet though.

Would timed release be more ideal for melatonin?It is suggested so for those who awaken during the night.

But the SR version is oral, isn't it? That also means much less bioavailability over SL.

[Dr. John Crisler]

One of Dr. Reiter's presentations from early 2009 is on Instatapes in the free lecture section. Talks more about the cycle through the day, amount of light that displaces melatonin and affects on cancer. Did not go into supplementation.

Looks like getting up in the middle of the night to pee may be killing me.Not if you do not turn the light on.

And sit down (safety measure LOL).

[Dr. John Crisler]

Like others, I am interested in Dr. John's recommendations regarding Melatonin, but I am going to wait until I hear what they are before I start taking 10mg or 15mg per night. Dr. John indicated that those were the doses that were recommended for HIM and they could have been based on his individual situation. Of course he may very well recommend those doses for everyone, but I wait patiently until I hear from him...I have been taking 15mg SL each night just prior to bedtime.

I will begin taking 10mg tonight instead to see how I feel. The 15mg may be slowing me up a bit during the day.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I've been taking Melatonin on and off for the past 18 months (3mg) and very regularly an hour before bed over the last 6 months.

Over the last 4 months I've noticed a drastic decrease in libido, erection quality, and complete lack of morning wood. Not knowing what caused this I simply shrugged it off as stress from work.

Until I read about the melatonin side effects. Numerous animal studies testing melatonin use in hamsters, quail, and rats equate synthetic melatonin administration with shrinking reproductive organs. This happens through the GnRH inhibiting hormone (GnIH). GnIH levels are drastically raised (3 times) through an increase in melatonin levels. This action happens in the pituitary gland.

With more GnIH in your body LH/FSH levels drop, leading to a drop in sperm count and Testosterone.

In human studies Melatonin has been proven to reduce LH levels and essentially drop some male's sperm counts to 0. In addition, when boys go through puberty their natural melatonin secretion reduces by 75%, allowing for an increase in testosterone.

My question, has anyone else noticed these sides with long term (6 months+) use. If so can I expect my T levels (and libido) to return to normal now that I've stopped using melatonin (been off 1 week)?

I think the answer is maybe, just like someone coming off a steroid cycle.

It make sense to me that after artificially lowering your T levels over an extended period of time the pituitary gland may choose to raise the GnRH levels with the absence of the GnIH (from melatonin) but could just as easily have adjusted to the new lower levels and not raise production even though the culprit for the lower levels (melatonin and GnIH) is no longer there.

Thanks for any feedback! This issue has me very worried as it affects my fertility, libido, and T levels.Can you post the studies you have found for us, please?

I have not noticed any falling off of sexual function since increasing from 5 to 15mg.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Regarding melatonin and infertility/impotence here are a few articles that got me scared.

Prior to finding these I noticed sexual issues in myself after 6 months of regular use on 3 mg, and 18 months of sporadic use (no morning wood, lower quality erection, more effort to get aroused).

Melatonin seems to increase levels of the GnRH inhibiting hormone to levels high enough to lower LH enough to end sperm production and drastically lower testosterone.

Just received my serum testosterone level test results: 348 (range 132-813)

My big question is, would it be reasonable to expect levels to return to normal after cessation of melatonin?

http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/content/abstract/23/4/572

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-02/08/content_415924.htmThe conclusions of these studies are highly suspect.

There's more to a study than the title.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Agree with Wiseguy.

Also the first study states in 6 of the 8 men there was absolutely no change! So surely the take-home message should be melatonin doesn't (adversely) affect semen quality!

2 guys showed a negative change, one of whom still had the negative change even 6 months after stopping melatonin. Surely this strongly suggests that some other factor was at play and not the melatonin??

Its an interesting topic, but this study is extremely poor and argues the opposite of what they claim.You guys make me proud!

[Dr. John Crisler]

Right. Sometimes I'm just baffled when people post up silly studies they find on the net, and lack an ability to even interpret them (or even read them for that matter)Sillier--and far scarier--is how many physicians would draw the same conclusions.

These "scientific studies" show what I mean when I say often evidence-based medicine isn't.

[Dr. John Crisler]

That is what had me so interested. He mentioned that Dr. Russel Reiter gave a great presentation and that he was using 15mg sublingual. Given the body makes what...25mcg per day, that is an interesting dose. I am sure you are correct that it would patient specific, but I would love to hear the theory behing the dosing.The non-synchronized (to our natural rythm) produced that much.

We don't know how much an individual living in a totally natural state produces.

[Dr. John Crisler]

I think my melatonin experimentation is over for now. I usually have no trouble falling asleep but often have trouble staying asleep.

I tried source naturals brand 3mg timed-release melatonin for a few days. All it did was make me feel hungover each morning, I did not want to get out of bed.

Next was source naturals 5mg sublingual. I took one of these before bed. The first day I took it I noticed nothing out of the ordinary good or bad.

Night two I experienced multiple nightmares...I NEVER have nightmares. Occasionally I get what I would call unpleasant dreams about falling etc. but I easily shake them off once I wake. At this point I just thought the nightmares strange but did not connect it to the melatonin.

Night three I forgot to take it. Normal sleep.

Night four I tried the 5mg sublingual again and had numerous nightmares throughout the night and uneven sleep. Again, maybe because I did not take it every day I did not immediately connect this to the melatonin. I discontinued it for a few days after this.

A few days later I decided to try 10mg of the sublingual and had what I can only describe as severe night terrors. I woke in absolute panic with my pulse racing. I've never experienced this at any point in my life. It took me a good hour to fall asleep again.

Since stopping the melatonin I have not experienced this again...

I think I'm done with it for now.I dream in color while on melatonin.

Yes, I did get some wild dreams when I first started taking melatonin. They calmed right down. But heck, I chose to enjoy them.

[Nuclear]

Maybe this article was already posted. If so, I apologize. Its from 2004

FWIW:

The Therapeutic Potential of Melatonin: A Review of the Science
Samir Malhotra, MD, Girish Sawhney, MD, and Promila Pandhi, MD (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1395802/)

[Nuclear]

Another Interesting Article:

Missing the Dark: Health Effects of Light Pollution (http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2009/117-1/focus.html)

[EIC]

I have not noticed any falling off of sexual function since increasing from 5 to 15mg.

Aren't the allegations of testosterone reduction due to its interference with natural production?

[Katzenjammer]

Another Interesting Article:

Missing the Dark: Health Effects of Light Pollution (http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2009/117-1/focus.html)

Also, not only sleep problems, but depression is def. implicated in melatonin disregulation; I do a bit of light therapy in the morning and from 8pm on have all the curtains drawn; very low lights, etc.

[angelo212]

I tried the 5mg SL GNC product last night along with the GHRP6. I felt fantastic all day. No trouble waking in the morning and extremley sharp mentally all day long.

The tablet disintegrated quickly and tasted fine.



How much of the GHRP-6 did you take? Isn't that used for GH release and does it also help to sleep?

[JackBauer]

Updated per Wise Guy 25 mcg vs 15000 mcg - 600 times...... >> Wow

If this is indeed true...

It suggests that after 8 hours... that depending on the true half life of Melatonin (have seen it range from 20 mins - 55 mins)

That hypothetically with 15mg, you could have more than 25mcg in your system after 8 hours. (Although if the half life is 20 mins, it should be essentially completely gone)

[LowT]

For those getting positive results with melatonin- how soon before you go to sleep are you taking it?

I want to try it again but am discouraged by my previously poor results.

[rfish1966]

For those getting positive results with melatonin- how soon before you go to sleep are you taking it?

I want to try it again but am discouraged by my previously poor results.

Same thing for me. my response varies wildly. Like your quote by the way.

[Drew]

What kind of impact does melatonin have on cortisol, acth, etc...? Should those with adrenal insufficiency, even those on cortisol-type drugs, take these large doses before bed? Would one need to increase their cortisol replacement therapy?

I'm just thinking out loud here. Since starting this higher doses (5-15mg/night), I've noticed a decline in immune function. Whether it's related to the melatonin or not, I have no idea.

I googled around for a while and couldn't really find a whole lot. One page did mention light-therapy, and how if done in the morning, increases night-time melatonin secretion. I have a blue-light that I might start using, taper down the melatonin dose.

[Wise Guy]

I'm having great success using the melatonin precursor, 5-HTP.

[Drew]

I'm having great success using the melatonin precursor, 5-HTP.

Yeah, I use 50mg in the morning with my Adderall. It actually enhances it's effects.

One thing I'm going to think alot about: Melatonin inhibits dopamine release. When going to bed, this is probably a good thing. But I can't help but wonder what these large doses are doing to dopamine during the day. I know SL melatonin doesn't last a long time in the body, but who knows how long this blunting of dopamine lasts. This might partially explain why I need a higher dose of Adderall.

[EIC]

What kind of impact does melatonin have on cortisol, acth, etc...? Should those with adrenal insufficiency, even those on cortisol-type drugs, take these large doses before bed? Would one need to increase their cortisol replacement therapy?

I'm just thinking out loud here. Since starting this higher doses (5-15mg/night), I've noticed a decline in immune function. Whether it's related to the melatonin or not, I have no idea.

I googled around for a while and couldn't really find a whole lot. One page did mention light-therapy, and how if done in the morning, increases night-time melatonin secretion. I have a blue-light that I might start using, taper down the melatonin dose.

Dr. J advises that melatonin can make adrenal fatigue worse. I know that when I tried it, I felt TERRIBLE the next day. Like all I wanted to do was lay down and not move or breathe. I haven't touched it since. I am getting treatment for my adrenals right now. Take that for what it's worth.

[blackhawks]

I had crappy results with the Oral melatonin...I could not sleep at all. Im going to try the TD melatonin now. Should I also try Sublingual or is that gonna be the same as TD?

[Wise Guy]

Melatonin as an AI. Thanks to likkayouth :cheers2:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19773750
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19075592
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18782656
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20050373

[Nuclear]

I went for a sleep study to check for apnea due to heavy snoring. I was found to have no significant apnea, but some type of insomnia. My mind awakened with no stimuli 30 times that night.

The doctor said that this may be due to the high dose of melatonin I am taking (5mg SL) at bedtime.

Any thoughts on this?

[Drew]

I went for a sleep study to check for apnea due to heavy snoring. I was found to have no significant apnea, but some type of insomnia. My mind awakened with no stimuli 30 times that night.

The doctor said that this may be due to the high dose of melatonin I am taking (5mg SL) at bedtime.

Any thoughts on this?

I've never felt good in the morning after taking melatonin the night before. My wife says I "thrash around" in bed when I take it. I can't imagine thrashing around is getting me into slow wave sleep. I've tried all kinds of doses and methods (300mcg-15mg, sustained release to SL).

[Joe-UK]

I am trying Melatonin 6mg a night at the moment, I have only used it last night and tonight so I will write back here on how it goes. I felt pretty shitty today after I took it last night but I thought I would try it for a week.