What do you all think?

[jjstoneaz]

Gentlemen.... I have been on TRT since November, 48 years old. T Level 231 to start. ED, depression, over weight mostly around mid section and breast area. Found a mens age clinic here in AZ and proceeded with treatment. Presently on 180mg Test Cyp every 7 days and 250 IU HCG EOD. I feel terrible. Moody, no libido or erections. The beginning of TRT my libido was through the roof and not bad on the erections, and I felt awesome. Last lab had my T level at 635 and E2 13.7, over 6 weeks ago. Should I be having massive mood swings (change every 2 weeks)? Looking at seeing Dr. Crisler. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

[pmgamer18]

Well your on a lot of T and doing a lot of HCG. I eat up the T as fast as I take it and your on more then I do. I do 80mgs of Depo T every 3 days and 250 IU's of HCG the 2 days each in between my T shots I stop the HCG 5 days before labs and do my labs in the morning of my next shot but before it.

I can tell you doing this big shot your Estradiol that were low 6 weeks ago and up very high now. And did you do the labs 6 weeks ago or read them 6 weeks ago if not they it's been 8 weeks that you last did your labs.

I would not do big shots like this all at once most of it will make Estradiol it's a dam big shot all at once. If you need this much break it up do it 2x's a week so the shot is not so big.

When we lose libido on TRT it's Estradiol levels going up.

Your can do 2 things test this get on some Arimidex this will take a long time to get this done and get your levels down. Your not having wood tells me your now to high just get this brand of DIM and take one table at dinner time when your wood comes back you will know your levels are good. Keep taking the DIM but if your wood stops later your going down to low so just stop the DIM until your wood comes back. Then that day go back on it but cut the tab in half.
http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Pure-Rip-with-DIM-60-Tablets/12814?at=0
This brand works if you get some other DIM and find it is not working don't post to me about it. There is a lot of cheap junk out there.

Gentlemen.... I have been on TRT since November, 48 years old. T Level 231 to start. ED, depression, over weight mostly around mid section and breast area. Found a mens age clinic here in AZ and proceeded with treatment. Presently on 180mg Test Cyp every 7 days and 250 IU HCG EOD. I feel terrible. Moody, no libido or erections. The beginning of TRT my libido was through the roof and not bad on the erections, and I felt awesome. Last lab had my T level at 635 and E2 13.7, over 6 weeks ago. Should I be having massive mood swings (change every 2 weeks)? Looking at seeing Dr. Crisler. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

[TryingToFix]

Gentlemen.... I have been on TRT since November, 48 years old. T Level 231 to start. ED, depression, over weight mostly around mid section and breast area. Found a mens age clinic here in AZ and proceeded with treatment. Presently on 180mg Test Cyp every 7 days and 250 IU HCG EOD. I feel terrible. Moody, no libido or erections. The beginning of TRT my libido was through the roof and not bad on the erections, and I felt awesome. Last lab had my T level at 635 and E2 13.7, over 6 weeks ago. Should I be having massive mood swings (change every 2 weeks)? Looking at seeing Dr. Crisler. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

I wonder about the timing of your last test, did you wait 6 weeks since starting protocol to retest? That would have given it time to normalize. If not the test may have been prior to E2 possibly rising more and making you feel the way you do.

Also at that test point your HPTA may not have been shutdown but you are feeling affects now.

[JanSz]

Gentlemen.... I have been on TRT since November, 48 years old. T Level 231 to start. ED, depression, over weight mostly around mid section and breast area. Found a mens age clinic here in AZ and proceeded with treatment. Presently on 180mg Test Cyp every 7 days and 250 IU HCG EOD. I feel terrible. Moody, no libido or erections. The beginning of TRT my libido was through the roof and not bad on the erections, and I felt awesome. Last lab had my T level at 635 and E2 13.7, over 6 weeks ago. Should I be having massive mood swings (change every 2 weeks)? Looking at seeing Dr. Crisler. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!
If you are able, dr John is the best in the business, go for it.


T level at 635 and E2 13.7
---------------------------------------------
You may want to make small changes in your protocol before we will go with total overhaul of what you are doing.

I use these syringes for both T & HCG
BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b

EOD schedule

T-shot-26units=52mg=182mg/week average
HCG-shot=350iu

Do both shots one day next day free of shots.
==================
Assuming it is correct test, your E2 looks low, that is doubly worrisome since you are currently on weekly T-shots.
Hopefully little more HCG will raise your E2.
I hope you are not taking Arimidex or any other AI and forgot to mention it.
Prostate supplements contain AI.
================================================== =======
================================================== =======

Stop eating carbohydrates, specially high GI but better to drop them all.

Eat only fat, lots of fat, as a fat itself or as a fatty meats.

70% protein
3% carbohydrates (eaten by mistake)
27% protein.

That will help you loose weigh, keep your cholesterol as it should be and prevent from getting diabetes.
================================================== ========

Post all tests, blood tests and other tests that you had in last 5 years or more.

Get your doc to sign this list into script, and have blood tested (at LabCorp, blood drawn at LabCorp).
Untill recently, dr John prefered Quest Diagnostics,
but now he prefer (somebody else).

List below will work.
If you want to go to Quest, ask for another list.

Good luck.

1 --------- Comprehensive Metabolic Panel w/EGFR
2 --------- CBC w/ diff/PLT
3 --------- VAP TM Cholesterol Test
4 --------- Selenium, Whole Blood
5 --------- Copper, serum
6 --------- Zinc
7 --------- Magnesium, Serum
8 --------- C-Reactive Protein (CRP), Highly Sensitive, CSF
9 --------- Fibrinogen
10 --------- Homocysteine, cardio
11 --------- Lipoprotein (A) Lp(A)
12 --------- Iron and Iron Binding Capacity
13 --------- Iron, Total
14 --------- Ferritin
15 --------- Transferrin
16 --------- Folate, RBC & Hematocrit
17 --------- Hemoglobin A1c
18 --------- Hemoglobin, Plasma
19 --------- VITAMIN A, E, B3, B12
20 --------- Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy
21 --------- T3, Total
22 --------- T4, Total
23 --------- T3, Free
24 --------- T4,Free
25 --------- T3, Reverse
26 --------- Ultrasensitive TSH
27 --------- Thyroid Peroxidase and Thyroglobulin Antibodies
28 --------- Insuline, serum
29 --------- IGF Binding protein-3
30 --------- IGF-1
31 --------- DHEA Sulfate
32 --------- Aldosterone
33 --------- Renin Activity, Plasma
34 --------- ACTH, Plasma
35 --------- Cortisol Binding Globulin (Transcortin)
36 --------- 8AM/4PM/10PM---Cortisol, Free and Total
37 --------- Prolactin
38 --------- Progesterone
39 --------- Pregnenolone
40 --------- Androstenedione
41 --------- Estradiol, sensitive
42 --------- Estrogens, Fractionated
43 --------- Total Testosterone
44 --------- SHBG
45 --------- Albumin
46 --------- Dihydrotestosterone
47 --------- 3a-Androstanediol Glucuronide
48 --------- Ceruloplasmin
49 --------- Coenzyme Q10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
244.9 ----- 257.2 ----- 780.79
250.00 ----- 272.4 ----- 788.41
250.01 ----- 601.9 ----- 253.3
255.4 ----- 780.4 ----- 255.8
783.9 -----
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


..

[jjstoneaz]

Thanks all for the quick response. Will look in to the DIM, dont worry I take all advise as just that. lol Have mentioned spliting up the shots with my Dr. and he is allowing me to start that this week. A Thursday/Monday schedule.
No real labs for the past 5 years, been seeing shrinks and getting worst. This has saved my life. Now just need to get it balanced. Have lost 20 lbs and about 6 inches off the belly since November. I train hard, to hard I think but I was feeling so damn good. I will print out the Labs info and get that done asap and will post the results. Wish I would have found this 10 years ago! Thanks all.

[agoraphobe]

it's really obvious whats wrong here:

your test dose is way too high, your e2 is going through the roof


why not just start over at 100mg/week in one shot, maybe try some arimidex for a few weeks as well to get some quick relief, and see where it goes from there?

180 from the gate sounds pretty crazy, even split up... why? i would prove 100mg weely starting dose isn't enough before doing that.

[canthavetoomanytoys]

JanSz likes the EOD or daily dosing.... it works for him. It couldn't hurt and will get you to stable point fairly quick. You can adjust from there. Suggestion of 350IU EOD hCG may have a large impact on libido... the higher dosing works for me :sifone:

Agoraphobe's suggestion to reduce T may also be helpful... maybe now, but maybe after considering JanSz approach. I would try the JanSz method (with the higher hCG) and adjust T as needed once the results are in. If BAT is too high after a trial I would not change the T dose as rapidly as agoraphobe suggests... maybe drop down to 140 and trial again keeping everything else stable.

That's my 2 cents, YMMV.

[agoraphobe]

i personally think go slow is the best approach for someone new to trt..

the chance is much higher that you'll feel better before you become symptomatic all over again from high T or e2, and once you find the spot where you do become symptomatic, you can easily back off and not be trapped at your unbalanced levels for as long as when you start at ramped up high doses.

if you go from 120 to 130 and have a bad week, you can just drop back to 120 the following week and you're good.. as opposed to trying to back out of the cumulative effect of 6 shots of 150 down to 100 because you've become extremely symptomatic.

[JanSz]

Thanks all for the quick response. Will look in to the DIM, dont worry I take all advise as just that. lol Have mentioned spliting up the shots with my Dr. and he is allowing me to start that this week. A Thursday/Monday schedule.
No real labs for the past 5 years, been seeing shrinks and getting worst. This has saved my life. Now just need to get it balanced. Have lost 20 lbs and about 6 inches off the belly since November. I train hard, to hard I think but I was feeling so damn good. I will print out the Labs info and get that done asap and will post the results. Wish I would have found this 10 years ago! Thanks all.

Be carefull with that list that I have given to you.
I have insurance, it cost me $6 co-pay.
Insurance is charged about $3500 for that test.

If you would have to pay cash for taht testing,
save money, practically same labs can be had
without script (saves $$ on doc's visit)
and
cost under 1k

=================
But,
if you are on the roll
work also on these and you will be better equipped than most in dealing with problems of 48 years old.

FIA™ Comprehensive Profile 5000

HOW TO FILL OUT A TEST REQUISITION FORM
http://www.spectracell.com/media/standard-doss-sample.pdf

SpectraCell Laboratories, Inc. 7051 Portwest Drive, Suite 100 Houston, Texas 77024-8026 USA
CLID #45D0710715
800/227-5227
713/621-3101
713/621-3234 (fax)
spec1@spectracell.com (e-mail)
www.spectracell.com (website)
http://www.anti-aging-analysis.com/pdf/SpectraCell_Folder.pdf
--------------------------

From Genova

Essential & Metabolic Fatty Acids Analysis (EMFA)
Fatty Acids Analysis (EMFA) (http://www.genovadiagnostics.com/index.php?option=com_gpanel&Itemid=2&task=view&nav=test&id=47)

Sample test (http://www.genovadiagnostics.com/files/profile_assets/sample_report/EMFA_report.pdf)
=================================

....
Insurance List:

http://www.questdiagnostics.com/brand/business/health_plan/insurancelists.html

[wondering]

I would hold off on the every day or EOD dosing. The number of people who need this are miniscule. 1x or 2x per week dosing covers 99% of patients.

If you are anywhere near Dr. J, by all means go see him.


JanSz likes the EOD or daily dosing.... it works for him. It couldn't hurt and will get you to stable point fairly quick. You can adjust from there. Suggestion of 350IU EOD hCG may have a large impact on libido... the higher dosing works for me :sifone:

Agoraphobe's suggestion to reduce T may also be helpful... maybe now, but maybe after considering JanSz approach. I would try the JanSz method (with the higher hCG) and adjust T as needed once the results are in. If BAT is too high after a trial I would not change the T dose as rapidly as agoraphobe suggests... maybe drop down to 140 and trial again keeping everything else stable.

That's my 2 cents, YMMV.

[jjstoneaz]

Great info. Will take it all in and process it. I'll post results as I go.
Thanks again!

[medgerton]

Gentlemen.... I have been on TRT since November, 48 years old. T Level 231 to start. ED, depression, over weight mostly around mid section and breast area. Found a mens age clinic here in AZ and proceeded with treatment. Presently on 180mg Test Cyp every 7 days and 250 IU HCG EOD. I feel terrible. Moody, no libido or erections. The beginning of TRT my libido was through the roof and not bad on the erections, and I felt awesome. Last lab had my T level at 635 and E2 13.7, over 6 weeks ago. Should I be having massive mood swings (change every 2 weeks)? Looking at seeing Dr. Crisler. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

I live in AZ also. I made the trip to Dr. Crisler 18 months ago. I highly recommend you doing the same.
He is the best and you will not have to think twice about his advice. I have done VOVs (Virtual Office Visits) since the first visit. They work fine.

[chilln]

Gentlemen.... I have been on TRT since November, 48 years old. T Level 231 to start. ED, depression, over weight mostly around mid section and breast area. Found a mens age clinic here in AZ and proceeded with treatment. Presently on 180mg Test Cyp every 7 days and 250 IU HCG EOD. I feel terrible. Moody, no libido or erections. The beginning of TRT my libido was through the roof and not bad on the erections, and I felt awesome. Last lab had my T level at 635 and E2 13.7, over 6 weeks ago. Should I be having massive mood swings (change every 2 weeks)? Looking at seeing Dr. Crisler. Any ideas? Thanks in advance!

Looks like too much T, and that excess T will be converting into E2 and DHT.

The E2 will be suppressing the effects of the additional T.

Discuss with your medical professional adviser to gradually reduce your T, and see if you can find a sweet spot.

But you may find that even if you gradually reduce your T, you may never find a sweet spot, if your body converts T into too much E2.

If you're one of these people, then discuss with your medical professional adviser to supress the conversion of T into E2 via arimdex.

You can dose arimidex in small quantities if you get it compounded, as discussed here:

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=59066&postcount=31

.

[JanSz]

Looks like too much T, and that excess T will be converting into E2 and DHT.

The E2 will be suppressing the effects of the additional T.

Discuss with your medical professional adviser to gradually reduce your T, and see if you can find a sweet spot.

But you may find that even if you gradually reduce your T, you may never find a sweet spot, if your body converts T into too much E2.

If you're one of these people, then discuss with your medical professional adviser to supress the conversion of T into E2 via arimdex.

You can dose arimidex in small quantities if you get it compounded, as discussed here:

http://musclechatroom.com/forum/showpost.php?p=59066&postcount=31

.
jjstoneaz wrote:

Last lab had my T level at 635 and E2 13.7, over 6 weeks ago.

/////////

He should stay away from Arimidex.


..

[chilln]

He should stay away from Arimidex.


My reading of jjstoneaz's statement is that his labs were taken before his T boost.



I have been on TRT since November


November 1 was 11 weeks ago.
November 30 was 7 weeks ago.




Presently on 180mg Test Cyp every 7 days and 250 IU HCG EOD.


This doesn't mean jjstoneaz's medical professional adviser started jjstoneaz on this regime.

I believe that either:

a) jjstoneaz's medical professional adviser probably started jjstoneaz on less T, and bumped it up after the initial improvement wore off.

or

b) jjstoneaz's SHBG is naturally low, thus his total T is not a good measurement of his bioavailable T, and that his bioavailable T is relatively high, resulting in conversion into too much E2, and his free E2 is also too high (also due to naturally low SHBG).

In my view, Therefore if jjstoneaz's labs were to be taken now, their either:
a) his T would be higher than 635 and his E2 would be higher than 13.7,
or
b) his SHBG would be low.

In both cases, jjstoneaz should discuss with his medical professional adviser to consider lowering his T dose, and to consider supplementing with some arimidex if lowering his T dose doesn't result in a sweet spot where his bioavailable T is sufficiently high, and his free E2 is sufficiently low, without an aromatase inhibitor (prevents conversion of T into E2).

.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by JanSz
He should stay away from Arimidex.



My reading of jjstoneaz's statement is that his labs were taken before his T boost.

November 1 was 11 weeks ago.
November 30 was 7 weeks ago.


Originally Posted by jjstoneaz on Jan 19/10
I have been on TRT since November,

Last lab had my T level at 635 and E2 13.7, over 6 weeks ago.

=============================================

jjstoneaz

There is a lots of wiggling room in your statements.
Please rewrite and provide precise information.

What have you been injecting and when.
Have you been changing anything in your schedule after you started it.
When have you drawn blood for the test, date.
That was XX days from starting your schedule
That was YY days from last correction to your schedule, how many days on steady schedule before blood was drawn?

......

////////////////

[jjstoneaz]

Hey JanSz, no wiggle room just not all the facts at the time. Was looking for a general statement from the board. I have gone back through my logs, not the best but here it goes.
Started 11/10/2009 200mg of test cyp IM.
Base Test serum was 238.
11/19=200mg
11/26, 12/3, 12/10, 12/17=160mg
Blood drawn 12/17 am prior to shot, started HCG on 12/17.
Numbers of 635 Test and 13.7 E2 are from 12/17 draw.
Started HCG due to testes shrinking up. I was taking Anastrozole up to the results of the draw on 12/17. I started Anastrozole due to nipple pain. No AI since then.
12/24, 12/31, 1/7/2010, 1/14=180mg
1/21=90mg, will do the other 90mg on Monday am 1/25.
HCG has been EOD 250iu.
I repeat I have not been on any AI's since the 13.7 reading came back.
Thanks

[JanSz]

Hey JanSz, no wiggle room just not all the facts at the time. Was looking for a general statement from the board. I have gone back through my logs, not the best but here it goes.
Started 11/10/2009 200mg of test cyp IM.
Base Test serum was 238.
11/19=200mg
11/26, 12/3, 12/10, 12/17=160mg
Blood drawn 12/17 am prior to shot, started HCG on 12/17.
Numbers of 635 Test and 13.7 E2 are from 12/17 draw.
Started HCG due to testes shrinking up. I was taking Anastrozole up to the results of the draw on 12/17. I started Anastrozole due to nipple pain. No AI since then.
12/24, 12/31, 1/7/2010, 1/14=180mg
1/21=90mg, will do the other 90mg on Monday am 1/25.
HCG has been EOD 250iu.
I repeat I have not been on any AI's since the 13.7 reading came back.
Thanks

Thank you.

Back to my post #4

.........

[jjstoneaz]

JanSz
Do not see how I will be able to do the EOD on the Test Cyp, clinic will not write script for home use. Will get the blood work done and post here.
Try to keep carbs to zero on off training days. 50-70 grams on gym days.
Work outs are flat and even hard to get excited about right now.
Thanks for the help.
I am 48 yrs old, 6ft, 275lbs (295 when I started in November).