Finasteride problems

[boston]

Hello. Dr John, we have all heard of you many times over on the Propeciahelp forum. We have heard you have helped some guys, and have experience in curing some of these patients.
I am aware that comprehensive blood work is a must, because many men have been left nearly hypogonadal.
But are you aware of any men who have had prostate trouble as a result of Finasteride, and has this been a result of androgen changes? Have you seen these prostate problems resolve completely??

Thank you very much for your input.
31 is too young to be having prostate trouble I think..

[pmgamer18]

I know of a guy that had this problem from after using Propecia. He would drink 2 to 3 beers a day. I told him that when my Estradiol "E2" was very high and was like this for many yrs. I had voiding problems and a low pain in my prostate along with some bad ED. I even had the sugary on my prostate to help me void. This was good for less then a yr. And the problem was back I had my E2 tested about 5 yrs. ago and it was very high. After getting it down my problems were gone. I wish I never had the sugary. After being on Arimidex for 4 month my Uro test showed my prostate went down to a normal size.

This guy had his E2 tested he also had low testosterone but was not on TRT. He was very high took Arimidex and his Prostate problem was gone and his Testosterone come back up.

[bgnb]

finesteride is what is prescribed for enlarged prostate!

however, i believe it can still have a negative effect on
libidio and ED ... and make things much worse.

supposedly it blocks DHT which is needed for erections
but maybe with AI it won't be so bad.

[boston]

Wow, you have breathed much needed hope back into me! I heard before that some hormone imbalances, most notably high estrogen, could be causing some of this, however never from a direct source such as yourself.
Actually, I think I also read it in Dr. Shippen's book "The Testosterone Syndrome" also, now when I think about it.
I want to get my hands on some of this right away!!

I was about to try Clomid, but once I get this next round of blood tests first, or do you think Arimidex would be a better choice? Also, what about some TRT for a brief time period just to see if higher T makes me feel closer to normal, and therefore telling me that my baseline T level must also still be a bit low now. Do you think this would be a good idea? I'd like to try some Androgel, or something.
Also, cant this help the blood flow through the prostate, and help clear some things out, as long as I also make sure to follow it with some PCT, right?
Man, I cant tell you how positive I am feeling right about now man! Thank you for that.
Could you tell me where I can order some of this online?

Btw, if you dont mind me asking, how is your sexual function now, and ED, and prostate? Did the surgery f--- anything up for you? I've heard it can take a few years for the prostate to recover after such a procedure. What was it a TURP?

So PEOPLE, Finasteride is very very very bad news! Dont even think about it, or take it, or even risk it. I am aware its supposed to shrink the prostate, but it is highly capable of just f---ing it up regardless, so dont mess around.

I'm still praying I make a full recovery. I'm just getting with this new girl now too, so I'll need it to be working right here pretty soon now. Van damn!

[Mosaifalaf]

hi i just joined this site. i too am suffering from prostate congestion. i have been ordered by my dr to give myself a prostate massage to drain it. i am going to be starting arimidex shortly as it will help with lowering estrogen and thus bringing my prostate back to order.

i did not take propecia but i used proscar which is finasteride in just a different dosage.

i am so excited to see this post as there are others out there. i would love to chat off line so we can exchange information and possibly u can see my dr. if u live in boston than that's good cuz i live in New Jersey.

Mosaifalaf@yahoo.com
mosaif

[pmgamer18]

Well for you guys not on TRT I would try this OTC supplement Indolplex/DIM I get some input from the guys saying this does not work but if you get this brand is works.
http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html
I have tried other bands and nothing this one works.

Take one at dinner time if you don't have night time and morning wood this is the first thing that will come back this means your Estradiol levels are in the right level. Keep taking this but if wood stops this means your going down to low. So stop until wood comes back then that day go back on it but cut the tab in half.

Also DIM is good for your prostate it keeps cancer at bay.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12665522&dopt=AbstractPlus

[boston]

Well for you guys not on TRT I would try this OTC supplement Indolplex/DIM I get some input from the guys saying this does not work but if you get this brand is works.
http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html
I have tried other bands and nothing this one works.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'you guys not on TRT'.
Also, what is an OTC supplement?

I thought I was supposed to take Arimidex?
Isn't Arimidex what will help me?

Where can I order Arimidex online men?

[boston]

Also, some guy on Propeciahelp forum is taking Tamoxifen, and my doctor is recommending Clomid, because Clomid is all he has experience with. So he is willing to work with that.
He is very nice, and I truely believe he wants to help, but he says he has never prescribed Tamoxifen, so he doesn't want to lose his license or what not.
Of course I told him about Crisler, and how he prescribes it for this purpose, but my doc has a history, and so he says he just cant, so this is why I want to order online.
I'm psyched cause i just got my new health insurance today, so I will be getting my bloods drawn soon.

ps. Also, I am going to Mexico next week for ten days. i wonder if i can get shit down there.

Anyway, thanks for all your help guys!
Mostaif, I will write you back soon. Yes Fin is BAD news. I hope you are ok. Read this whole post. Why, is your doctor prescribing this stuff to you? Is he familiar with this problem at all (Finasteride problem) and willing to work with you? And why do you want me to come see him? just for increased awareness.. i know it is hard man, but hang in there.

Thank you men!

[pmgamer18]

You need a script for Arimidex there is stuff sold on the web used for testing lab animals I don't trust this. I your not on TRT or taking testosterone then do the DIM Arimidex will bring your levels down very fast and you will miss the level and can go to low. OTC is Over the Counter you don't need a script. Any thing that will bring down your Estradiol will work even Zinc helps.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'you guys not on TRT'.
Also, what is an OTC supplement?

I thought I was supposed to take Arimidex?
Isn't Arimidex what will help me?

Where can I order Arimidex online men?

[boston]

This may be beating a dead horse... but doesn't Arimidex also raise the T, and so it may be more beneficial than the OTC supplement?? or no?
does the T just go up because there is less E2 in the blood??

Anyway, what you think. try the OTC supplement first, then if after a month - no results, then maybe get some Arimidex if I can?

Does this OTC supplement work quickly, and help very well?
How long will I have to take it?

Thanks

[pmgamer18]

Ok you need to learn more about this. First let me say trying Arimidex is not what brings up T levels it's getting E2 down your brain can't tell the diff. between E2 and T so if your E2 is very high it stops sending the message to your testis to make T. So it's getting the E2 down that brings up T only in men that have working testis. And yes Indolplex/DIM works dam good it converts the E2 and bad E's into good ones so your liver can wash them out. Also Taking TMG helps with this process. Here read these links.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174
http://www.griffinmedical.com/male_hormone_modulation_therapy.html

This may be beating a dead horse... but doesn't Arimidex also raise the T, and so it may be more beneficial than the OTC supplement?? or no?
does the T just go up because there is less E2 in the blood??

Anyway, what you think. try the OTC supplement first, then if after a month - no results, then maybe get some Arimidex if I can?

Does this OTC supplement work quickly, and help very well?
How long will I have to take it?

Thanks

[Dr. John Crisler]

Don't take Arimidex without having appropriate labs done to show you have elevated estrogen. Otherwise, E that is too low is bad for you, too.

Beyond that, consider drugs of the same class as Arimidex are powerful endocrine disrupters. I suspect since you are already proven to have issues with your hormonal pathways, by your finasteride problems (also a powerful endocrine disrupter) it may be best to avoid interfering with your system in this way.

[hardasnails1973]

Don't take Arimidex without having appropriate labs done to show you have elevated estrogen. Otherwise, E that is too low is bad for you, too.

Beyond that, consider drugs of the same class as Arimidex are powerful endocrine disrupters. I suspect since you are already proven to have issues with your hormonal pathways, by your finasteride problems (also a powerful endocrine disrupter) it may be best to avoid interfering with your system in this way.

As always very well said. Throuigh manipulation of estrogen metabolism and balancing all the hormones together majority of the time armidex should not be needed or needed at lower dosages. May be its that extra 25 mgs of DHEA that might be enough to cause a big glitch in the estrogen levels. With hormones and nutrients there is a fine balance of things and everything effects the rest.

[JanSz]

Don't take Arimidex without having appropriate labs done to show you have elevated estrogen. Otherwise, E that is too low is bad for you, too.

Beyond that, consider drugs of the same class as Arimidex are powerful endocrine disrupters. I suspect since you are already proven to have issues with your hormonal pathways, by your finasteride problems (also a powerful endocrine disrupter) it may be best to avoid interfering with your system in this way.

Dr John;

Even, accurate cutting of Arimidex pills is very difficult, actually impossible,
at least for me.
I suspect many E2 adjustment problems are due to unequal and inappropriate dose.

Have you heard of acceptable liquid replacement or a way to dissolve Arimidex pills in known and accurate amount of liquid and then use
(small) insuline syringe with cut out needle
to have accurate dose.

[boston]

The reason I definately think this could be a hormone issue is because I only took this stuff for 3 weeks, THATS ALL. ANd it was like OVERNIGHT sexual dysfunction once I stopped.
I didn't find this website for 'permanent Propecia sufferers' until a week later.

Most doctors, go figure, say there is no problem with my hormone levels, eventhough my condition is living proof.
I have had some guys tell me different things from the site however.
This is a link to my first comprehensive bloodpanel, 3-4 weeks after stopping Finasteride.:

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=397&start=0


----------------------------------------------
Then these were taken on 7/10/07 @ 8:50 am


Total T was 652 (ng/dL 280-800)

But Free T 12 (pg/mL 8.8-27.0)

and SHBG 55 H (5-49 NMOL/L)

Prolactin 18 (ng/mL 4-15)
note, it said: "High prolactin *Prolactin elevated, so sample was treated with PEG, which showed more than 60% recovery, suggesting that majority of prolactin is monomeric, and that elevation is not caused by macroprolactin."

Estradiol 27 (pg/mL 8-45)

and DHT 90 H (25-75 NG/DL)


didn't get LH or FSH, and I don't know why because it was requested.. Also, there are some other things tested that I just didn't write here.



I hope there is some indication of a problem.. as funny as that sounds.
I have a feeling my Free T is low, as well as have been told "some Danazol could be beneficial in very small doses to help lower SHBG which is quite high, and likely a source of the problems", but still dont have a doctor that is willing to treat me for this.

I will be getting a full panel of blood work sometime next week, and should have results shortly after new year's.
Is there any other comprehensive Estrogen tests I should get?

Thank you for all your advice guys!

[JanSz]

The reason I definately think this could be a hormone issue is because I only took this stuff for 3 weeks, THATS ALL. ANd it was like OVERNIGHT sexual dysfunction once I stopped.
I didn't find this website for 'permanent Propecia sufferers' until a week later.

Most doctors, go figure, say there is no problem with my hormone levels, eventhough my condition is living proof.
I have had some guys tell me different things from the site however.
This is a link to my first comprehensive bloodpanel, 3-4 weeks after stopping Finasteride.:

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=397&start=0


----------------------------------------------
Then these were taken on 7/10/07 @ 8:50 am


Total T was 652 (ng/dL 280-800)

But Free T 12 (pg/mL 8.8-27.0)

and SHBG 55 H (5-49 NMOL/L)

Prolactin 18 (ng/mL 4-15)
note, it said: "High prolactin *Prolactin elevated, so sample was treated with PEG, which showed more than 60% recovery, suggesting that majority of prolactin is monomeric, and that elevation is not caused by macroprolactin."

Estradiol 27 (pg/mL 8-45)

and DHT 90 H (25-75 NG/DL)


didn't get LH or FSH, and I don't know why because it was requested.. Also, there are some other things tested that I just didn't write here.



I hope there is some indication of a problem.. as funny as that sounds.
I have a feeling my Free T is low, as well as have been told "some Danazol could be beneficial in very small doses to help lower SHBG which is quite high, and likely a source of the problems", but still dont have a doctor that is willing to treat me for this.

I will be getting a full panel of blood work sometime next week, and should have results shortly after new year's.
Is there any other comprehensive Estrogen tests I should get?

Thank you for all your advice guys!

First, I do not think that you have any Proscar/Avodart related problem,
because you have a high DHT.

You have a sky high SHBG that binds any testosterone you may have.
Because estrogen binds to SHBG, your E2 is rather low.
You also have high Albumin=4.9
that binds to T & E.

Why are they so much out of range, I do not know.
I suggest that you check close to 200 items, some of them I am sure are out of range big way.

Do Genova Diagnostics

NutriEval
EstroEssence

thise tests come with advice of what to take and how much, for corrective action.
Eat what they advise, repeat same tests 4 monts latter, add to the list of supplements adviced in first round, list should be much shorter.

=======================================

Direct answer to your question:
"Is there any other comprehensive Estrogen tests I should get?"

Quest, blood test:
Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
Estrogen, Total, Serum (439X)

more complete list of other stuff to test is here:
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/918085-post44.html

The other estrogens you may test using
EstroEssence
from Genova Diagnostics.
It comes with list of supplements to eat and dose, to make it better.
Sometimes it suggest gene testing if you show some outliers.

EstroGenomics.

That is if you in more dodo that you first thought, but at least it will give you a hint.

[Dr. John Crisler]

Dr John;

Even, accurate cutting of Arimidex pills is very difficult, actually impossible,
at least for me.
I suspect many E2 adjustment problems are due to unequal and inappropriate dose.

Have you heard of acceptable liquid replacement or a way to dissolve Arimidex pills in known and accurate amount of liquid and then use
(small) insuline syringe with cut out needle
to have accurate dose.

I wouldn't worry about it; just do your best. Arimidex has a five day half-life. So cut a pill in half (for instance), and take one half, th enext time, the other. If one of the pieces is smaller or larger, the next will balance it out.

[Dr. John Crisler]

We do not know what the problem is we these gents, yet. DHT levels, T, E, all can be just fine. Yet no doubt they suffer.

I have several protocols I use, one after the other. Until we succeed.

[boston]

Dr. Crisler, Sorry for the late response, the holiday was very busy, but I really appreciate your advice, and really hope this works out for me. I will pay you for your help, while also telling ALL the people over on PropeciaHelp about what you are helping me do. I will tell them all. I talk to everyone over there, and speak with them regarding all these problems.

So where I am at right now... and my plan (I was hoping the lab sheet would have had more of a comprehensive list of things, that maybe even YOU could refer to and use as an acceptable next baseline to help treat me, or give me educated advice), because I have a lab sheet to get another round of a few tests here, so I may just do it tomorrow (Fri) because I'm going away for three weeks, but I wanted to get the tests done before I leave so that I may try a light dose of Clomid for a few weeks while I am gone traveling just to see if this brings T up, and helps maybe resolve things. I dont want to wait any longer to start treatment.. I think they call this the Clomid test. I wish it were a more comprehensive list, so that in case I have to get others when I return, the insurance company will not put up a stink.
Hey, are there a few others I should just check off on this list before I go in tomorrow??

I would like to work with a competent endocrinologist though. And it sounds like you may have some ideas.
Have I heard that you work with some people via cyber-space and telephone consultations, and have appointments using IM??
I would fully pay you for your services, obviously, but I would like to see if you can help me.
Of course it would be better if I didn't have to come all the way to Michigan, and could work with you from Boston. It would also be good to be using my "new" health insurance as much as possible from here, if that works. But I do need someone experienced like yourself
Is that possible?? Do you do this?
I'm thinking at least for the costly blood panels, which I am hoping my new "Mass Health" health insurance will cover.
And of course, if you accepted Mass Health, even better, but of course I will just have to pay, if not.

I want to move forward with some treatment asap though. I want to move on this. It has been 10 months now I have had these problems, I dont want my body to get used to them. I feel like it just needs a kick in the right direction, or to be brought back to a healthy balance, and then it will stay there. I am confident of this.

Anyway, I will be getting:
-Estradiol
-FSH
-LH
-Prolactin
-Testosterone, Total
-Testosterone, Free
and
-SHBG
only...

I hope it is enough, to serve as an acceptable preliminary test, and maybe you can prescribe me something to try, if the Clomid doesn't work, and then I can follow up with some tests again in Febuary.??

Would you be willing to try to help me? While also helping to avoid a trip to Michigan??

I want to get on a sensible treatment plan, trial/error/tests plan right away.

Thanks a lot, Happy Holiday, and thank you for reading :)

~B (in Boston)

[boston]

Hello All, and Dr. Crisler. Hope the New Year is treating you all well.

So I did the blood tests, and got the results sent to me finally. I was wrapped up in moving, and some other things, so I've been lagging on this treatment. Also, just hoping thing will continue to get better. They sort of have, but also, sort of haven't..
Idk, still having some prostate symptoms, although a little less severe or frequent, but cant tell if this is because I've really tried to make a conscious effort not to drink much at all now. It just sets me back.
Anyway, sometimes can get full erections. Had the best sex in a year. Seemed mostly normal. But symptoms still come back and are lingering.
Definately still a problem there. Something isn't right. I can feel it in my prostate. And then the shrinkage thing too which is a little concerning and embarassing still at times when its bad.
I don't know what is wrong with me and why I'm taking so long to recover.

Dr. Crisler, I talked wit my GP and he is willing to work with you on treating me. I hope I can get it together soon to organize this. Its just getting it together at times is frustrating. Tjis whole thing is almost ruining my life man.

Anyhow, some latest results for thought:

-I guess my Total T is still slowly climbing @ 718 now. Which could be good. Its been 1 year.
(can't remember ranges and dont have it in front of me, but I can update later.)
-I think Free T was somewhere middle range, \
-however % T which was also taken, stated BELOW NORMAL RANGE, and was highlighted.
-FSH was also highlighted as out of range, and OVER NORMAL RANGE.
-LH seemed fine.
-SHGB has come down.

Am I getting better? I see slow SLOW improvements, but nothing to really write home about, because I cant quite tell if its if I'm just managing the problems better, e.g. always trying to wear loose pants, unbuttoning them always when I'm sitting (They're alwasy falling down when I walk into a store or gas station or something, and I'm like buttoning my pants on the sidewalk! :o(), not drinking nearly as much coffee, staying away from junk food, away from stressful situations, or intense situations, and also mostly not drinking ANYTHING.
But still feel the somewhat bloating in my stomach, gassy, crampy stomach. NEVER used to have this shit, ever in my life. Could always work it out too if I ever did have such a ailment.
I am constantly trying to work this out, improve my energy flow and just work this out of my body. Because I work outdoors, on trees, I have my own business, so I can do my own thing walking around out in people's yards, on my own time much of the time. I try to do yoga, pee whenever I want, just try to just shake this thing out and breath, and stretch, try to get it to work out of me, but for some reason it still just won't, I still just think there must just be some sort of a slight hormone imbalance or something which must be causing this and I feel, if I can fix, I will then easily be fine. Its very surprising and perplexes me, but I think I do finally need someone like you Dr. Crisler, or Dr. Shippen.
But you seem cooler and easier to work with, although think I have heard he's treated many more men with fin issues. But do you think you have any ideas? You've already put time into corresponding with me..

I cant believe I only took the shit for 3 weeks only too!!
Albeit, I think I am a minor case considering some of the other dudes. I think I will be someone who gets over this.

Any insight would be great. Dr. Cris, any ideas as something to try, or should I just send you a check, with all my blood results, and have my GP contact you?

Btw, I just got some Clomid. I was going to do 25mg per day everyday before bed for three weeks to see if anything balances, but then just found out after I bought it, it RAISES FSH, and found out my FSH is high already, should I try anyway? Could it balance everything? Its a very low dose, and have also read this is Dr. Shippen's pretty standard protocol for a "Clomid Stimulation".

Also, I do have a naturopath, who I was considering to have just do a bunch of testing on things such as cortisol, and other things, as I do know that I have much more trouble sleeping now, and this has just caused a slightly more frantic state in my body since it all started. ANy recommendations on what I should have tested at my Naturopath,
or should I just try to get all tests with you, or from an establishment you know?

Thanks man/men!


Ben (in Boston)

[boston]

Any thoughts guys?? Dr. Cris??:confused: